Conference napalm::heavy_metal

I would like to have some of these reporters to check out my old-roomate's
collection of tapes, sheet music and musical tastes.  He loves MAIDEN!  He 
also likes Priest, Ozzy, Metallica, Zeppelin, Aerosmith, and lots of
other hard rock/heavy metal bands.  He is no different from you and me, except 
for the fact that he is now in a seminary studying to be a Roman Catholic 
Priest.  Even the folks in the seminary don't mind his tastes in music.
I also have considered that line of work, and I am seriously considering 
doing missionary work in underdeveloped countries.  


All because of Heavy Metal I suppose....


Wildman

    Southern Death Cult...
    Death Cult...
    The Cult...
    
    AAAAAHHHHH!!!  IAN ASTBURY'S THE DEVIL!!!!
    
    And I have 8 posters on my wall!!!  That means I'm a Satanist.
    Look out.
    
    He he he...666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
    FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
    Black red green Halloween Dungeons and Dragons.
    
    See how stupid that is?  Some people.
    
    Steve

    "...don't feel like Satan, but I am to them!
     though I try to forget it any way I can"
    
    Rockin in the Free World - Neil Young
    
    I agree that the article "Satan in the Suburbs" did more harm than
    good.  Why, everyone now things *I'm* a Stanaist cuz I have two snakes
    as pets!!!  In fact, Hot Kitty and I got pulled over on RT 2 by two
    cops cuz we had one of my snakes (Franz, the 5' python) in the car and
    they thought we were devil worshipers!!!   

    As much as we would like to believe it, not everyone (big time rockers)
    plays with this stuff for popularity.
    
    Mike

    
    	Buck:
    
    	Is that reasonable cause now...snakes, hey!  He's a satanist!
    	See that traffic sign over there...they must be having a sacrifice
    	at Dairy Queen!
    
    	I wear black t-shirts and listen to heavy metal, and I best not get
    	pulled over for it!!!!!!
    
    
    							Lf
    

    Re: .14
    
    Slam, thanks for that input.  I bet a lot of youngsters learn the hard
    way in finding out that the devil doesn't play fair.
    
    To some it is a gimmick, but don't be so naive to think that none of
    the rock groups really believe in what they are doing.
    
    I personally know some of the Christian rockers that use to be fairly
    successful in the secular music world.  One of them used to open up for
    such notables as the Stones, Who, Beatles, and Black Sabbath.  This guy
    has personally witnessed Black Mass ceremonies backstage before the
    shows would start, complete with human & animal sacrifices.  This does
    not mean all of the above are involved in Satanism, just be aware that
    some are involved.
    
    Mike

    
    
            This subject is worn out. I listen to Heavy metal, I wear
           slayer T-shirts and have Motley Crue symbols in my bedroom,
           I don't feel the urge to sacrafice dogs and other barnyard
           animals in the name of satan. I love Iron Maiden, and the
           song "Number of the Beast". Before you know it, we'll be
           saying heavy metal hipnotizes teenagers into believing this.
           I defend Heavy metal to my parents, and I'll defend it on
           it on this conference..
    
                     Doug..

    
    
    
    		I can see where the people get these ideas of 
    	Heavy Metal and Devil Worship with bands like Venom, Slayer
    	King Diamond writing the type of songs they write....
    
    		But I think its wrong saying all Heavy Metal is
    	the Devils work.. look at Stryper... 
    
    		Its like finding out a Dec employee is a Devil Worshipper
    	and then saying everyone that works at Dec is a Devil Worshipper...
    
    			Give me a break.....
    
    
    	JW

    re:Heiser (sorry I forget your first name!)
    
    I'm sure you believe in what you're saying, but like I've said,
    I've followed this topic rather intently for the last few years
    and since you are incapable of producing ANY kind of proof, like
    a newspaper article listing your body count, or anything, then
    based on what I'VE been exposed to, it's a crock, and your 
    accusations are by far the most exaggerated I've heard yet.
    	And what your friend told is just what I said it was, hearsay,
    and nothing else. You mean to tell me that all these people knew
    about this, and the authorities were NEVER called. Where did the
    bodies go, where did they get the bodies? ETc. etc. etc. just think
    about the whole thing, you have to admit it's very far-fetched.
    As if this satanic band would allow other people to witness this,
    or tell people about it, or actually do it back-stage and no one
    would happen upon the ceremony (like people that work there/own the
    place??)
    	Just think about it, no offense intended, but it's a pretty
    dangerous accusation, and I think your friend was 'funnin' you.
    
    /Motorbreath...anti-HM religious freaks LOVE stories like yours!!
    
    

    
    RE:  .35
    
    No one here ever said that this doesn't go on period, neither did
    we ask for a body count of the major american cities either.  All
    we said was that we don't believe that this ever happened backstage
    at a HM concert.  Just because your "friend" said that it happened
    and he was there doesn't mean cr*p, why didn't he stop it or get
    someone who could, or was he in on it to I suppose.  I had someone
    tell me right to my face once that he was at a Kiss concert and
    Gene Sommons whipped out his **** and started masterbating in front
    of the crowd, absolutely swore to it because he hated the band so
    bad, now you tell me, is that hearsay or what.  I better not mention
    Gene 'cuz you probably think that they do sacrifices backstage too,
    especially when Gene used to do the blood thing onstage.  If you
    must leave the topic then please, go.  But put up or shut up is
    my motto.  Back up what you say.
    
    Mr. Ed...this is exactly how rumours get started and out of hand,
             (slightly flaming over this stupidity)

    Mr. Ed, Motorbreath, and myself took our discussion off-li to clarify a
    few things.  
    
    Something I'd be interested in knowing:  Do the groups that blatantly
    utilize satanic symbolism or lyrics affect you in any way?
    
    Is there anyone out there that considers themselves a follower of
    Lucifer?
    
    Mike
    
    
    

    Boy !  Seems like I opened Pandora's box Friday didn't I !  Seems
    like with all the anti-religious press flying around these days
    (Bakker - Swaggart - Roberts) that people in the religious spotlight,
    like Stryper, wouldn't be so bold.  I'm sure they party like any
    other red-blooded American males, that's NOT my point.  Bragging
    about nursing a hangover isw NOT good press for a band suppopsedly
    spreading the gospel.  They seem like they try to paint a squeaky
    clean image while at the same time playing metal, 2 opposite ends
    of the spectrum.  They try to show another side of metal besides
    a "Motley Crue" stereotype.  They slipped a few notches during that
    interview, that's all.
    
    
    
    
    				Scary

>    spreading the gospel.  They seem like they try to paint a squeaky
>    clean image while at the same time playing metal, 2 opposite ends
>    of the spectrum.  They try to show another side of metal besides
>    a "Motley Crue" stereotype.  They slipped a few notches during that
    
    Scary, are you saying then that HM is at the opposite end of the
    spectrum and thus inherently evil?
    
    If so, I disagree.  I've had many arguments with fellow Christians over
    this.  Gospel music over the ages is responsible for influencing or
    starting many musical styles.  I believe HM is just a natural
    progression of the electric instrument age and Christians are entitled
    to that form as much as anyone.
    
    Contrary to the viewpoints of many Christians, there is no such thing
    as evil music or "Power Chords from Hell"!  God created everything and
    said it was good.  What makes something evil is the attitude or
    influence behind the heart of the artist (i.e., lyrics).  Music alone 
    should never be part of this argument.
    
    Mike

SET MODE/MODERATOR

Please refrain from getting into non-music-related discussions in this note. 
This is much more appropriate for SOAPBOX, RELIGION or CHRISTIAN. If it is 
not directly related to HEAVY METAL music, please don't write about it here.

thank you,
alan starr

    
    	Cardinal John Moore (I believe) from NY has been preaching
    	that H_M is in fact devil worship music, citing Ozzy's "Suic-
    	ide Solution" and others.
    
    	He says that at least 2 exorcisms have been performed in NY
    	in the last year, although I don't know whether or not they
    	were directly related to H_M.
    
    							GTI
    

    re: .0
    
    in reply to this annoying letter, most of the things listed in this
    file is false.  animal mutilation is against the satan religion.  you
    only kill for food not a ritual.  and this thing with drugs 
    well.....that is just stupid.  also music has nothing to do with satan.
    now i am writing this letter short because i am pissed of at all these
    false accusations.  i think people should stop downing things that they
    just don't know about or just don't understand.  i am not trying to
    lecture people but most of these people are just to stupid to be able
    to speak or live. thank you...
    

	
    	RE: STNING::DSM_SEC 
	>in reply to this annoying letter, most of the things listed in this
    	>file is false.  
    
    	I assume you mean the base article?
    
    	>now i am writing this letter short because i am pissed of at all these
	>false accusations.  i think people should stop downing things that they
	>just don't know about or just don't understand.  i am not trying to
	>lecture people but most of these people are just to stupid to be able
	>to speak or live. thank you...
         
    	Again, I assume you're referring to the author's of the article
    	and not to people in here, no? yes?
    
    	Tigga~~

    Yes, it is in reference to the base note. That is why I
    was sure to put in "re: .0" at the top of the reply.
    

    I've held off this note for a while, because I'm in the UK and have no
    way of confirming nor counteracting the allegations being made.
    
    When it comes down to it music has little to do with personal pratice.
    As with any music form there are some who overstep my mark of
    acceptable. They have lyrical content that I find unacceptable. In many
    case, I see this as a substitute for talent. It's relatively easy to
    "sound" heavy metal these days but there are few real musicians.
    
    For instance, why have WASP and Alice Cooper been so gory? In both
    cases they have had great musicians and produced great music so why the
    theatrics that play into the hands of those bozos who cannot appreciate
    another's like for MUSIC (not lyrics or intention, but MUSIC).
    
    Heavy metal music is not he problem, its individual practionters that
    need to be looked at. The same applies to many other forms of music and
    to other walks of life.
    
    For instance, do we ban classical music because Tchaikovsky was gay or
    that Stravinsky wrote the "Rite of Spring" which dealt with a pagan
    festival involving a young girl dancing to her death as a sacrifice to
    the pagan gods?
    
    Recently I was in the US and I think there are many other things that
    should be dealt with before the finger is pointed at Heavy metal. For
    instance, the so-called sport of Wrestling. That isn't play, it's
    watched by young kids and is sickening to watch. The commetators almost
    glory in the indescribable violence that is going on (eg, I heard once,
    "Oh no if he does that he will break his neck. This is incredible!") 
    Very soon, someone will get killed. Yet, it appears to be acceptable.
    So is football, boxing, ice hockey and so on.
    
    So don't point at heavy metal as the source of problems. There is much
    in our society that contributes to causing "unsocial" action in people.
    
    As one final point I keep hearing that parentsare pointing to heavy
    metal (or something similar) as the reason for their kids being out of
    order. Well, what relationship do they have with those people? Are they
    left alone too long? How much of a family feeling do they generate? How
    much time do they spend with them? In my case I have been into heavy
    metal for 20 years some of which has some very difficult subject
    matter. Yet, I was always able to have a reasoned outlook on life
    because of my parents and friends around me. I can distringuish between
    those who are sick and those who are trying to make me think.
    
    Well. that's enough for now. I'd better shut up and get on with it.
    
    Keef.

    Well said ....
    
    As you mentioned at the end of your note, the problems that have
    caused the finger to be pointed at HM, are far too close to home
    for the average American Parent.  If these people were to take a
    closer interest in their kids, thoughts, likes, dislikes, etc. 
    They would probably never see a problem, and HM would not be getting
    the BAD PRESS.
    
    
    Bob

    
     re. last few.
    
       Gee, not just that - c'mon, don't you know that those who listen
    to HM (kids and grownie-ups) are renowned drug users and abusers?
    I mean really, "I" don't know anyone that listen's to top forty dance
    music that does drugs - that kind of music just isn't a bad influence!
    And we all know it's the music that makes people develop those nasty
    druggie habbits. Now, let's all get REAL about this HM stuff!
    

Great reply Keef.

You may be interested in noting that the original Stravinsky piece 
"Rite Of Spring" caused incredible riots during the concert...
It was too much for people to handle.  Sounds familiar eh ?

jc

    Well, it caused a riot (singular)..the music was trange enuff, without
    the ballet that went with Rite of Spring...I think the suggestive,
    paganistic dancing is moreso what caused a scandal.

[Reprinted without permission from "Don't Stop the Music" by Dana Key]

Tool of Satan or Tool of God?
-----------------------------

My phone number used to be listed in the Memphis phone book.  That was
before the arrival of "the crazed caller."  I didn't know his name,
his age, or where he lived -- but I did know 4 things about him: he
seemed somewhat mentally unbalanced; he was a big fan of DeGarmo &
Key; he thought I could help him; and he would do anything he could to
talk to me on the phone.

On a typical day, he would call 3 or 4 times.  I don't know when he
slept, but he seemed to think I never did, because he would call me at
all hours of the day and night.  I cared about this mysterious caller,
and I prayed for him often.  But he began calling me so often that I
had to come up with a solution.  I told all my friends.  "Look, this
guy is driving me crazy.  If you want to call me on the phone, let my
phone ring once, hang up, and call me back."

That helped -- but one big problem remained.  Some nights when my
family was sound asleep, he would call 3 or 4 times and let the phone
ring over and over.  So I tried unplugging the phone -- but that meant
I couldn't receive calls from people I needed to talk to.

Finally, I broke down and got an unlisted phone number.  And my
problem with "the crazed caller" was over.  But you know what?  Never
during all of these problems did I think that the problem was really
the phone itself.  I knew the problem was with the caller, who was
abusing and misusing the phone.

Tools Can Be Used for Many Purposes

One of the biggest questions people have about rock music is whether
God can really use it for His purposes.  It's an important issue, and
one Eddie and I hear raised often.  The Bible tells us much about what
is right and what is wrong.  There are right and wrong actions
(praying for and caring for people are right, but murder, lying, and
theft are wrong).  There are right and wrong attitudes (love and
compassion are right, but anger, envy, and lust are wrong).  But do
you know what?  There are few things -- meaning concrete, physical
objects -- that God says are wrong.

Look around you at all the objects we have in our world.  Most of them
can be used for good or bad purposes.  Their "goodness" or "badness"
isn't part of their inherent nature; it depends on how they are used
by humans -- whether for good or for bad.

That's why I told you about my mysterious caller.  By itself, my phone
was just an inert, passive object.  My friends used the phone to talk
to me and tell me things I wanted to hear.  But in the hands of the
mysterious caller, the phone became a major cause of discomfort and
distress (as well as many sleepless nights)!  You can apply this
principle of good and bad uses to almost any object.  Look at guns.
Misused, they can kill innocent people: used properly, they can defend
your family or country from thieves or invaders.  Or look at
automobiles.  In the hands of a drunk driver, a car is a deadly
weapon.  But on the other hand, an ambulance is a vehicle that brings
healing and mercy.  Music is like automobiles.  It's a vehicle that
can be used to bring good things or bad.  It can lead you close to
God, or it can lead you further away.  It's a tool that can be used
for many purposes.

Music and Lyrics

Some people say, "The beat and tone of rock music sound like they are
straight out of hell."  Many take this criticism one step further,
saying that the music -- and all who make it -- are demon-inspired, or
demon-possessed.  And it's true that some of the music of secular
bands like Skinny Puppy can sound hellish.  It's strange to my ears,
and I don't like to hear it.  But that's okay.  I don't have to listen
to it.  Meanwhile, other will think country music or Tiffany sound
bad.  But sound is not the important issue.  It's meaning.  It's what
the song is saying -- and the lyrics of a song are what fives us that
meaning.  I believe that music (particularly instrumental music) is
absolutely devoid of moral qualities for either good or evil.  This is
not to say that there is not good instrumental music or bad
instrumental music.  Instrumental music can be good or bad, but that
isn't a theological issue -- it's an artistic one.  The "goodness" or
"badness" of instrumental music is based on the performer's
competence and skill.  If the music is played without skill, it is
bad.  If it is performed skillfully, it is good.  Therefore, a
particular piece of music could be considered bad, yet not immoral.
And some music could be considered good, yet immoral.  Aren't you glad
I've cleared this up for you?

Music is Used in Many Ways

Today, popular music is being used for bad purposes.  But it has been
that way for a long time.  And Christians have developed some pretty
creative ways of dealing with the issue.  Most Christians feel okay
about singing our national anthem, "The Star Spangled Banner."  They
don't see demons flying around when they sing it; instead, the song
stirs deep patriotic feelings.  And maybe the song means more to me
that to most Americans, because Frances Scott Key is one of my direct
ancestors.  Key wrote the words to the song in a poem called "The
Defense of Fort McHenry."  But he didn't write the music.  That came
from John Stafford Smith, a British man.  And Smith didn't write that
music specifically for Key's words -- in fact, he wrote it for a
British drinking song.  The tune became popular in pubs all over England.

It may seem inappropriate for us to sing about the land of the free
and home of the brave to a melody written for a bunch of people
drinking in bars all across England -- especially since England
happened to be our national enemy at the time.  Yet the same melody
brings teas to our eyes and stirs our patriotism because Key's words
gave that British drinking song an entirely new meaning to us.  The
music is just a vehicle used to communicate an idea.

Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer, was a great songwriter and
theologian; he understood this concept well.  Luther wrote the words
for some of our greatest hymns, but he borrowed the music from popular
German folk songs.  As a result, people had no problem learning
Luther's hymns because they already knew the music.  When we sing
those hymns today we aren't aware of the origin of the music.  It just
sounds like "hymn music" to us.  Many or our greatest hymn writers
have used the popular, secular music of their day for their hymn
lyrics.  Bernard of Clairvoux, a 12th century Christian set the words
for "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" to the tune of a German jig.

Apparently, the writer of many of the Psalms did the same thing.  Look
at the instructions before Psalm 56 ("To the tune of 'A Dove on
Distant Oaks'") and Psalm 57, 58, and 59 ("To the tune of 'Do Not
Destroy'").  These instructions to the "song leader" of the day tell
him which current tune serves as good accompaniment for this psalm.
The origin of the melody is irrelevant; it is the message that is
carried by the music that is important.

"Secular" and "Sacred"?

I hope I haven't ruined "The Star Spangled Banner" or some of your
favorite hymns by telling you where their music came from.  Maybe you
can tolerate the use of secular melodies for sacred songs.  But what
about secular music that isn't used for any sacred purpose at all?
What about plain old "pop" music -- the popular music of our own day?
Is it all right for Christians to listen to and enjoy songs that are
not written by Christians and have no religious or patriotic purpose?
Once Jimmy Swaggart, an outspoken critic of popular music, appeared on
"The 700 Club," a religious TV show.  Someone asked Swaggart what he
thought about the song, "White Christmas," a song your parents and
grandparents have probably heard Bing Crosby sing for years and years.
Swaggart's response was: "The truth is that it's not edifying tot he
cause of Christ; it does not glorify or lift up Jesus Christ."
Therefore, the song was "bad."  For Mr. Swaggart, and many others, if
a song does not specifically mention Christ or speak in religious
jargon it has no value.

In the view of Mr. Swaggart -- as well as many other Christians --
everything needs to be "sacred".  there's no place for the "secular."
This view means there's no place in God's earth for material that
doesn't talk about Christ.  Songs must be about Jesus.  Love poems
would disappear -- unless the poems were about love for God.  Books are
only okay if they are about the Bible, Christians, or Christianity.
Paintings must portray Jesus, crosses or other religious subjects and
themes.  The logical extension of this view is that you could only
receive Christian mail from a Christian postal carrier.  When the
toilet or the sink got clogged up you would need to call a Christian
plumber.  Your breakfast cereal would probably be "Be of Good
Cheer-i-os," and the only toothpaste you would use would be G.L.E.E.M.
(God Loves Everybody, Especially Me)!  You would have to buy your car
from a Christian auto dealer, and you would be required to put "Honk
if you love Jesus" stickers all over the bumpers, fenders, and doors --
as well as over all the windows and windshield.

This is My Father's World

There is only one thing that separates that which is spiritual from
that which is unspiritual.  And it's called sin.  If there is
something sinful in your life, you must throw it away.  There is no
place in the Christian life for casual tolerance of sin.  But if
something is not sinful, it can be used to glorify God, the Creator of
all good and beautiful things.  Martin Luther sums it up very well in
declaring, "The cobbler praises God when he honestly makes a good pair
of shoes."  Or, as the old hymn says, "This is my Father's world."
Likewise, the Apostle Paul says, "Whatever you do, work at it with all
your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men" (Colossians 3:23).
And he says, "Whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" (1
Corinthians 10:31).

We need to remember that Satan is called the god of this age and the
ruler of the world.  Satan does have power here.  But God is greater,
and likewise, greater is the power that is within us.  Satan has
never created of fathered anything except sin, yet some speak of
Lucifer as if he were the creator of music.  He is not.  God is the
creator of music and of all things.  Satan, in his rebellion, has
perverted many areas of God's perfect creation, but he has no power to
bring into being things which did not previously exist.  He can only
rearrange, taint of pervert that which God has already created.  And
that is his strategy concerning modern music.

Satan has invaded many areas of communication and art today: music,
television, movies, books, and radio.  And he would love to claim all
of these as his own creations.  The good news is that these areas are
God's first.  And if Satan has temporarily claimed them, we can
reclaim them and return them to the service of the Creator!  Eddie and
I don't worship rock 'n' roll.  We don't think it's good or bad.  We
do like it, and we know many other people do as well.  And we use it
as a tool to convey the healing, saving message of Christ.

How Will You Use Your Tools?

So what do I say when someone asks me if rock music is a tool of Satan
or a tool of God?  I say, "Yes.  It's both."  So are many other things
in this world.  The important thing to remember is that it's up to us
to use the tools God has given us.  We can use the telephone to bring
good cheer or make obscene phone calls.  We can use music to bless or
condemn.  And we can use our eyes, ears, and mind to take in things
that are bad or things that are good.  It's up to us.

And don't forget:  Your life is a "tool," too.  God has given you that
life along with many talents and gifts, and you can use these gifts to
serve God and man or you can use them to hurt.  It's up to you.

    If Rock 'N Roll is the music of Satin,
    and Country is the music of God...
    
    Look for me surfin' the sea of eternal flames!
    
    -Stevie D

    
    
    Its not for any of us to judge!!
    
    Goddess F.

    Anyone who bad mouth's White Christmas is seriously *'d in the head!!

    Re: -1 & White Christmas

    No doubt!  I'm amazed that he used to be affiliated with my
    denomination.  After he got "caught with his pants down" ;-), we
    stripped him of his credentials and excommunicated him.  What's even
    more amazing is that he's still at it as an independent.

    He also said he saw "demons" hovering over the stage at a Stryper
    concert.  Besides that being ridiculous, I doubt he even attended one.

    Mike

    
    
    sounds like too much drugs to me!
    
    Goddess F.

    I really like that guy's attitude (Dana Key).  I get so sick of some of
    the self-righteous people calling themselves "Christians" going around
    blanketly condemning certain forms of music when they clearly know
    nothing about many of them.

    Jimmy Swaggart's attitude is totally ridiculous!  If you did nothing
    except things that explicitly praise God, then you'd never be able to
    say work in the normal market place, do yardwork, enjoy hobbys like
    motorcycle riding or woodworking, because none of these things are
    explicitly religious actions.
    
    Have you posted this article before, Mike?  I've read it before, but I
    have no idea where.  I don't generally read religious publications on
    my own...
                                 
    gh

>    Have you posted this article before, Mike?  I've read it before, but I
>    have no idea where.  I don't generally read religious publications on
>    my own...
    
    Not in here, only in CCM notes.  Dana Key (of DeGarmo & Key) is a
    pretty decent blues-rock guitarist too.
    
    He sums up my feelings in that article much more eloquently than I ever
    could!
    
    Mike

    That's wierd!  I've definately read that article before, but I don't
    read CCM notes, and I don't read CCM magazine or any other publications
    of or dealing with religious stuff.
      
    gh