Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    Oh yeah...
    
    Just my impression, but it doesn't seem to me that there is as much
    excitement about pop metal anymore.  Groups like that don't seem to be
    cropping up as much as they did for awhile in the mid-late '80s.  
    
    I think a lot of people are just tired of that sound.  That's kind of
    how it is for me.  I used to like stuff like that, but I'm not really
    as into it lately.  I can listen to it and enjoy it, once or twice, but
    I don't bother buying any of this sort of albums, because it's not
    something I want to listen to over and over anymore.
    
    gh

    
    Are you referring to bands such as Posion, Warrant, ect...

No, he's referring to bands like Metallica

    I thought pop-metal/commercial-metal had a fairly widely known
    defination, but yeah, Poison and Warrent would fit the catagory.
    
    gh

    I've been thinking the same thing of late.  In fact, I thought it was
    pretty risky of Extreme to release such a mainstream rock album with E
    III.
    
    I see bands like Bang Tango going south unless they produce mega hits
    like Extreme (More Than Words) or Mr. Big (To Be With You).
    
    
    Kinda sickening

    
    Re: Greg
    
    	It was. I just making sure.
    
	

    
    
    Well Warrant's (Sorry Friz) new album isn't doing anything. It's not
    selling much except for the die-hard fans. I thought they were pretty
    much the kings of pop-metal.
    
    

    This type of music in general seems to be taking a major nose
    dive.....not that I care!  :*)
    
    Bob

    There'll always be a market for this Brand_of_Rock.
    I don't see it dyin on the Commercial_Air_Waves...Much.
    When I was(A_bit)younger,I thought I'd love stuff like BOSTON and
    Peter_Frampton forever.But now,I'd rather listen to HELMET or PANTERA.
    As Mike points out...Many,Many bands mix it up..so you can't Brnd
    Brand them as being only Ballard/Pouser types.
    
    If some bands who play this type of music only are havin a hard time
    findin work,I'd be suprized.
    
                 Crazy_But_Glad_Al            No_Offence,Tim.

    But_Al,
    
    Looks at the number of bands in the sub_genre who are "dying" out as
    bands ... Britny Fox, Cinderella, Salty Dog, Motley, etc.

    Britny Fox:Died a long time ago....
    
    Cinderella: Their album sales have been going down since the first
    album.
    
    Satly Dog:They never were anything but dead. Bad example.
    
    Motley Crue: Far from dead...They just came off their biggest album.
    PLus they kicked out their singer.
    
     How about bands like Def Leppard,Firehouse,Ozzy,Guns-n-Roses?
    
       Friz
    

    
    
    >> Motley Crue: Far from dead...They just came off their biggest album.
    >> PLus they kicked out their singer.
    
    	Friz admit it. The band is falling apart and know one really seems
    	to care. I know you're a die hard fan but admit it. 
    
    >> How about bands like Def Leppard,Firehouse,Ozzy,Guns-n-Roses?
    
    	Def Leppard is riding on momentum from their long break. It'll
    	fade.
    
    	Firehouse is dead.
    
    	Ozzy is boderline pop-metal. 
    
    	Guns N Roses is an all-around rock and roll band. I wouldn't
    	put them in the same catagory as Warrant, Poison, ect...
    
    	What about Tuff?
    

    
    Re: Mikey
    
    	Agreed.

    Whatever...But I must say that this topic is too hot me and I must
    refrain from saying anything. I promised Greg....
    
       Friz
    

I think there will always be a market for this type of metal, but it isn't
a faithful market.  What I'm trying to say is this week's Extreme is next
week's Mr Big is last month's Firehouse.  So what you will see is a lot of
"one - hit - wonder" types of bands in this area.

As soon as radio comes into play here that type of dog eat dog mentality
goes on.

Would Van Halen qualify for this category?  I think they're doing well.  I
guess you can do well in the commercial rock category, but don't target
that as your main audience.  If you get a crossover hit in CR, great,
you'll become mucho rich, but don't count on it next time you release an
album.

Guns n Roses definitely has hits in the CR category, but I don't think they
target it.  (Neither does Metallica - I was just pulling Chris' chain.)


Tim

    Yeah, what Friz said, Bon Jovi was the king...
    
    Actually, I would put Ozzy into this category.  I think he's just
    riding the wave of his former popularity right now.  He can probably
    produce albums as long as he wants to and they'll be reasonably
    successful, because of the large base of long time fans he's amassed
    over the years.
    
    I'd say Def Leppard also fits this category.  The only people that I
    know that say they even remotely liked DL's last album were devoted
    fans.  Everyone I talked to that had an objective viewpoint about it
    said it sucked.
    
    Motley?  Who knows?  They seem to be taking a long time producing a
    product now that Vince is gone.  Don't know if that means anything or
    not.
    
    Hard to say.  I did think it was interesting that the guy from Hardline
    (whichever one said that) though that was the toughest musical market
    around right now.  They're actually out there trying to do it and have
    members that have been for many years.  I'd think their opinion to be
    pretty knowledgable.
    
    gh

    
    
     Well, I still listen to some of the "Commercial Metal" myself, and
    like some of it. Firehouse, BritnyFox, I was saying to Greg that I
    heard something new by Faster Pussycat that I kinda liked. But, there
    seem to be SO many of this type, style, look etc. band around that it
    does seem like the market is saturated. I can see why alternative metal
    is appealing to people. Its different, non-refined and pretty raw in
    alot of ways. Sometimes its refreshing to hear this kind of sound. So,
    I guess if this last year is any indicator of change, I would say that
    it is losing its foot hold on popularity. I think there will ALWAYS be
    a niche for it, but more limited than it has been.
     I think it shows in the amount of play the radio gives commercial
    metal, and it's overall popularity. For instance, I don't think that Def
    Leppard is anywhere near as popular as they were when (whatever the
    last one was) out. It will show when Bon Jovi releases a new one, I
    think that band's popularity is way down. I'm not slamming those bands,
    its just my opinion. I think metal is changing in alot of ways, lots
    of exploration being done. But as we all know, things eventually come
    full circle, but in what amount of time will it take.
    
                                                             mike
    

    Without reading the rest of the replies yet, I just have to comment on
    Mikey's thoughts.
    
    I don't consider Queensrhyche all that commercial really.  Sure they
    have a few tunes off their latest album that got lots of radio play,
    but for the most part, they aren't commercial to me.    
    
> Most commercial metal bands only satisfy a specific market segment. 
    
    There you go.  I think Queensrhyche satisfy a fairly large market
    segment.  I know a lot of people who don't like Heavy Metal that much,
    but like songs by Queensryche.  These are people who also don't listen
    to WAAF usually because it's too 'hard'.  But even people who like the
    real heavy stuff like QR also.
    
    And how can Stryper be considered commercial?  You never hear them on
    the radio.  (fortunately)  I think one of the definitions of
    'commercial' is that the band gets lots of radio airplay.  or MTV
    vid-play.
    
    |KS|
    
    

Actually alternative music is in a quandry right now, since it is becoming
more and more popular, hence mainstream.  What will college radios (kings of
the alternative market) be playing next???

Tim

    As far as Ozzy goes, I think his latest album was quite commercial. 
    But it was excellent just the same.  Not many performers could put out
    an album of that quality after being in the business so long, and
    having several lame albums.  Not to mention the alchohol abuse, bad
    press in the past, and the friction between him and Zakk Wylde.
    
    |KS|
    

    RE: Stryper
    
    Calling On You was a really big hit for them on MTV, as we as few
    other tunes (forget names offhand) from that lp.
    
    Stryper were cool ... I saw them many times in concert, and they
    always were a fun band to watch (sans the Bee outfits).

    I think Stryper is a comercial pop-metal band. There reason they are
    not on the radio I believe is because its christian. As far as MTV
    there was that song "Free" and also "Honestly" that were hits but only
    on MTV...As far as comercial music---I think its wearing out on people.
    People are getting sick of hearing the same old stuff. I think there
    looking for more creative music--atleast I am and with my writing as
    well...

Where does commercial begin and varying styles end? Seems to me that a lot of bands are 
doing pretty much the same type of music they've been doing and are only now getting a
lot of air/MTV time. Seems like society is accepting a harder/rockier type of music as 
mainstream. 

    I don't see how the commercial *success* of a band changes the
    defination of their style.  In Stryper's case, I would most definately
    say their style is "commercial metal", regardless of whether they
    *ever* got any airplay or not.
    
    Their most recent album shows them branching out from the hard form
    their music had all along.  There's a lot more other style influences. 
    I find it more interesting the the other of their albums I've heard as
    a result.  But it's still a very commercial/mainstream type sound.
    
    gh

    greg-- is that P_N from Rollins?
    
    

    
    They began breaking into commercial metal scene with "Last Time In
    Paris" IMO.
    
    

I find it really interesting that a lot of people who listen to these
bands get offended or turned off just because a band has commercial success.

Now I realize that in some cases when the happens, THEN the band tends to
change. Or, they changed to become succesful, but I think this happens a lot
less often then most people apparently think.

Just because say, Extreme, has some hits. I normally don't lose my appeal
for a band.  Sometimes I get the feeling some people think that if the
band isn't unknown and "underground" then they're not "good enough" for
thier tastes. Amuses me. :^)

Guess I'm agreeing with Jesse.

-andy

    Well it seems quite obvious that everyone has their own "OPINION" as to
    what or who they consider commercial metal but it seems as a general     
    consensus that overplay and unoriginality are the common denominators.
    When you think about it very few bands (H.M. or not) can have their own
    style without becoming redundant or even copyable(?) (i.e. Led Zepplin,
    Pink Floyd,ect.) in turn having what it takes for longevity. Something
    else you may want to think about is why is it (especially in this
    note) that a band is only really considered great if has little to
    no air play; the more ambiguous the better yet when noone has heard
    of them or cares for them certain noters consider it a personal
    slap across the face?
    

    re: Bob
    
    Yeah, the p-name's from Rollins.  
    
    "I think you got a low self opinion, man. 
     I see you standin all by your self"
    
    gh

    
    	RE: .32
    
    	I don't think most of the people in here are ragging on the bands
    	that are getting airplay JUST BECAUSE they're getting airplay.
    	Rather, that the bands are changing their style to fit into the
    	tastes of the listening public.  I know it pisses me off, and I'm
    	sure it does the same to most others.
    
    							GTI

    What my reply ment was something like this...
    
    ..Say you and a few friends have this really cool place to party. The
    more you party there, the more people get invited, and more people keep
    coming to "your" spot. When I started listening to Metallica as a soph
    in high school, it was me and few friends who liked them. Period. Over
    the years more and more people come to like them and they gain
    popularity. With the mass airplay they now get it doesn't seem like the
    same band and in a lot of ways it isn't. I mean, the band themselves
    have changed. Same with Van Halen. KILO was the only place you could
    hear these guys for the longest time. I useta think they was the
    greatest. I even like some of the new stuff but it ain't like it was
    when they got almost NO airplay. 
    	Getting back to that party spot, a few friends and I went there
    back in June, we useta call the place enchanted forest. It ain't the
    same, but yet it is. The Bonfire pit got moved, someone painted on
    a few of the rocks, There is a new car path where we useta take a leak. 
    We got there around 10:30 and around 11:00 a bunch of high school kids
    showed up. It was kinda interesting talking to them. We were all able
    to enjoy the spot even though it became more popular, (as party
    spots go), but it also made me feel good that the place where me and a
    few friends went four-wheel'in and stopped to have a bonfire and slam
    some beer was still a place where people could go to party. Hell, My
    Pinto even died a gruesome death there. 
    
    	I guess I'm saying that just because something gets popular it
    doesn't mean that it went "commercial". Often times it just that other
    people also enjoy it. 
    
    Devil Dog
    
    
    P.S> 
    
    For this argument, I'll assume by commercial you mean they get lotsa
    airplay and are generally considered more mainstream and publically
    accepted. In that case I'll say "NO", the popularity isn't diminishing
    all that much. It's just that a lot of country and cRap music are also
    sharing a lot of the airtime and record sales. 

    I just have to get in on this one....
    
    
    
    Let me start straight out by saying I do not like Metal like Poison,
    Ratt, Bullit Boyz, Etc, Etc, Etc....
    
    This is the sorta bands *I* call "Commercial Metal", because it is very
    much LGBG music.... I find it Bland, Boring, and rather SAD!  At the
    same time I don't particulalrly like bands with the attitude "You have
    to Love us because we stick to our principles (when it suits us)". I
    don't want to name name but bands like RHCP, and Nirvanna appear to
    fall into this catagory *IMHO*.
    
    Somehow (as has been so aptly said already), if a band is prepared to
    expand their horizons, ie Qryche, they get slated by the "IN" people,
    if however they stick to a winning formulae, Status Quo, they get
    slated by the "IN" people.... SO the only answer is for any METAL band
    who want to maintain the interest of the press, they have to explore
    new things while sticking to a formulae, by nice to some, obnoxious to
    others.... 
    
    I guess (to paraphrase SABBATH) "We Sold Our Souls For Rock & Roll"
    would pretty much sum up the "Commercial Metal/Pop Metal/LGBG metal
    alloy" type of stuff.
    
    Bonzo : - This sorta stuffs really hacks me off!
    

I happen to like what some in here would call "Commercial" stuff too.
Some of it anyhow.

So I guess I'm bothered a little by the "since we don't have them all
to ourselves, they're no longer worthy" attitude.  But then again, I
can see where somehow they lose the appeal because they're no longer a 
well kept secret.

Anyhow, this is a pretty cool convo.  I'm enjoying the different points of
view.

-andy

PS  I was going to see I agree with Mike H, but I just COULDN'T get myself
to do it!!  :^)

    
    So where do you think the ever-popular "Power Ballad" comes into play?
    
    

    Hey there Escobrat... you posey little tyke!   8*)
               
    "Power Ballads" used to be a great thing, when they were dissimilar
    enough that you could tell one from another.  An awfull lot of power
    ballads these days seem to be predictable to the point of being
    nuasiating!
    
    I still like some of them, but very few, and those are getting fewer.
    
    Bonzo (Shoot Warrant .... please) ;^)

    
     I think alot of the problem that "Commercial Metal" is having right
    now is do to a diversified market place for music in general.  It 
    seemed in the mid to late 80's there was a real explosion of new types of 
    music; ie Rap, speed metal, dance, alternative, and it is still going on 
    with the growing popularity of grunge music.   So the market base that
    "CR" was shooting for (teen-agers thru early 20's) is no longer an easy
    sell.   There will always be a group of people that like Bon Jovi,
    Warrent etc... but, these groups will get thinned out and only the ones
    that have developed a strong fan base will survive.
    
    I know my own personnal tastes have changed I used to listen to Bon
    Jovi, Posion, Ratt but, it seems that the groups never grew, just kept
    putting out the same kind of boy love girl songs or I've got a broken
    heart song, which has now gotten old.  I would much rather listen to
    a group that has some to say in there songs, or at least interesting 
    lyrics... Maybe its just part of getting older??
    
     Dan 

    I think you just nailed it Dan, when you grow up you grow aoutta bands
    like Warrant, Ratt, Bon Jovi.... 
    
    Bonzo 

    
    	Well then I guess I haven't grown up....
    
    

    Likewise...I'll never grow up.
    
         Friz
    

    Firz....
    
    Look around at the vast majority of people who are into the "Commercial
    Metal" type of groups.... what sort of age group would you guess are
    into this sorta stuff.  From what I see in the UK, these groups fans
    seem to be between 15 - 22... I am significantly older than this, but
    would have to say that the age group I see who like the "Commercial
    Metal" Bands, seem to be adolesents.
    
    I am not having a go on you alone Friz... (8*), I am pretty much having
    a go at the "Commercial Metal" bands who seem to be making loads of
    money punting out pure drivel... IMHO.
    
    Bring back LGTB, LGBG, etc.... so we can truely classify "Commercial
    Metal"
    
    Bonzo [do anything but Shoot Warrant]  ;^)

    Yo Bonzo, if'n yer gonna use LGBG(tm) ya gotta (tm) it. 
    
    
    

    
    
    the reason Warrant has got this new look and sound is because, and I
    quote, 
    
    "We're tired of having a majority of our fans being 13-14 year old
    girls"
    
    I'm pretty sure it was Jani Lane who said it.
    
    

>    What?!  You don't like the Celtics anymore?!

Hey hey, take it to another notesfile Sun puke fan!!!  :^) ;^)
(We can rathole there all we like. :^) )

Maybe it's because I'm approaching 30 (shut up Tigg!! :^) ) and this
is some major traumatic time in my life or smoething, but I
seem to lean towards the stuff I've liked since I was 15 or so.
That is, I STILL like them, and a lot of new stuff too.

How old are we talking here anyhow???!!  :^)

-andy

    >Maybe it's because I'm approaching 30
    
    Only 30?  I thought for sure you'd be pushing 40, based on your looks!
    ;')

    
    jani lane probably did say that.  the 13 and 14 year olds' moms were
    probably getting in the way of his plans.  wants to appeal to the 16
    and 17 year olds now :').
    

re: .36 (Mike Heiser)
    
>    It doesn't appear to be a simple judgement in this light.  Sometimes we
>    forget that musicians are people too and we all change.  Especially
>    musicians!  They are some of the most fickle people you could ever
>    meet.
 
    Good point.  This really hits home for me, since my songwriting partner
    and I had a big debate last night on rerecording some of our old songs. 
    We wrote these five songs about a year ago and did a 4-track recording
    of them that neither of us were completely happy with.  Now that I've
    upgraded my home studio, we had planned on recording those 5 again and
    doing 5 new songs too.  But we were rehearsing the songs last night and
    it became painfully obvious that the old material and the new stuff
    didn't go very well together.
    
    I was all for rearranging the old material and revamping the sound and
    performance of it a little so that it'd fit with the new material
    better (which was basically what I'd wanted it to sound like all along)
    and Jason was dead set against it.  He said he liked it the way we did
    it back then and basically refused to change it for another recording. 
    He said it was a reflection of where we were at a year ago and it's
    validity still held regardless of where we'd headed since then.
    
    I disagreed, but it's not like we're lacking in song material to
    record, so we picked out three more new songs to round out our project
    and not redo the old stuff (at least right now).
    
    Our stuff a year ago was what we wanted to do then, now we want to do
    something different.  Doesn't mean we "sold out", we're just doing
    things that are different now.  Why?  Who knows?
    
re: .41 (Dan Sweeney)
    
    Very well stated, Dan.  I completely agree!
    
    gh
                                                    

    I like the late 70's and early 80's comercial rock better. The style
    of the songs had more feeling to them. Thats why a lot of them are
    still being played to this day. The bands stayed together longer also.I
    could remember every time I listened to old Styx I never got sick of
    it. The commercial music now I get sick of right away. It's just not
    the same. A lot of the essence behind the songs are gone. It's just
    music that just sits and does not pearce the soul...

    Paul's statement about Styx makes me think of something.  He says he
    never gets sick of 'em, whereas I got sick of all their stuff (at least
    after and including The Grand Illusion) very quickly.  Stuff like Mr.
    Roboto made me gag immediately!
    
    Anyway, I have a theory that whatever you listened to a lot during
    certain formative years holds a special value to you that won't let you
    hear the flaws and shortcomings it really had.  It seems like almost
    everyone holds onto some certain artist, that really wrote pretty bad
    songs, from their late teens.
    
    I know for Friz, it's like Motley Crue and Rough Cutt.  For me, it's
    Ted Nugent.  Maybe for Paul, it's Styx.
    
    I'm not meaning to pick on anyone or their tastes with this statement,
    it's just that I've seen what appears to be examples that support this
    theory SO often that I have to believe it to be true.
    
    Gh (waxing philosophical)
                                                         

    IMO, the sounds of the late seventies and early eighties is kinda
    sacred, and I hate it when I hear new bands tyrin' to copy it...like
    that band Kingdom Come rippen' off Zep.
    
    I think a lot of bands put out a "commercial" song to do one thing...
    make cold hard cash.
    
    I remember when Mr. Big came to Seattle.  I have been a big Fan because
    I loved Billy Sheehan's work with DLR and Paul Gibert's with Racer X.
    
    I was standing in line to go see these guys and I noticed a bunch of
    little young teeny-bopper girls talkin' 'bout "To be with you".
    
    Bet most of 'em left cause THEY ROCKED THE HOUSE.
    
    I think producers push bands to write a couple of Top Forty Tunes
    ON PURPOSE...but then the rest of the album is dedicated to the real
    Kick A$$ tunes we all love.
    
    IMVHO.
    
    -Stephen

    Lets all not forget the"Acoustic_Attack"last year or so.
    Some good stuff came out if it,but after awhile I All_Most smashed
    my Acoustic!!
    
    RE.Buckster..Way_Back..     
    You were quite right with the list of Bands you pointed out as
    currently not being as popular as they once were.
    But on the other hand..Look at The_Scorpions.I don't think that 
    they have ever been more popular than they are now.
    
     Crazy_And_They_Just_Released_A_Whole_Album_Of_Their_Ballards_Al
    
    
                              *ACK!!*
                                                                   

>>    Bet most of 'em left cause THEY ROCKED THE HOUSE.

The guy I worked with had a similar example.  He went to see Nazareth and
the girls sitting next to him talked incessantly about them doing Love Hurts
on the radio.  They sat with their fingers in their ears through most of the
show.

Hahahaha, I would have had my fingers in my ears for Love Hurts...  




Tim

    I think Greg's theory about being obsessed about a certain time period
    because the music was somehow more special to you is RIGHT ON THE
    MONEY.  Whether you had a something special happen to you or something
    bad happen to make you 'attach' to this band or certain bands.
    For me Motley just turned my crank and made me say "F**K YEA!".
    I'm sure everyone has bands that do that to them....
    
    I know alot of people like certain music because it reminds them of
    when they were doing drugs.  Music is kind of like a memory refresher.
    
        Friz
    
    

    
    only if we can borrow you for a cooking experiment...
    
    

    
    cats chase birds?  cats catch birds??  and cats (gulp!).. eat birds?? 
    oh father!
    
    

    re: Crazy_Al
    
>    But on the other hand..Look at The_Scorpions.I don't think that 
>    they have ever been more popular than they are now.
    
    And I don't think the Scorps have ever *sounded* worse!  Their new
    music is all rehashed pablum, IMHO.  Their old albums rooled, but now
    they've gotten soft and sticky.
    
    re: Crazy_Friz
    
>    I know alot of people like certain music because it reminds them of
>    when they were doing drugs.  Music is kind of like a memory refresher.
    
    Yep.  Actually, I've known several people who hate certain music now
    because it reminds them of then they were doing drugs, since they've
    cleaned up now.
    
    re: Crazy_Rob
    
>    only if we can borrow you for a cooking experiment...
    
    Mmmm!  Slow roasted, with a little sage and butter...
    
    I bet he'd be delicious!
    
    Crazy_gh

    Either way....Ya'know?  I think that music is a pointer for the memory
     for either good or bad. 
    
     Crazy Mike:Sure....
    
        Friz
    

    What Memory?? I'm still doing Legal drugs and I love the stuff that 
    got me into Music in the first place...and Love some new stuff
    ALL_Most as much. 
    
    Crazy_gh::I agree that The Scorpions Were much better years ago,
    but I was talkin about how they seem to be more PoP_ular now.
    
    Crazy_Friz::As you know Bud,Music is Eternal and Uni_Versal.
    
    
                Crazy_You_Know_Who

    
    legal in which country?
    
    

    You Know,Over_The_Counter_Stuff.
    
    Let me make one thing Perfectly Clear..I didn't give My_Self the name
    "Crazy_Al".   It was tagged on me along time ago.
    
    
        Crazy_And_May_My_God_Help_Me_I_Think_It_Fits_Al

    
    yes he did, that's why they call him crazy :')
    
    

    Re::Rob
    May your flight turn into the plot for the next"AirPort"Movie.
    
                       Crazy_Happy_Landings_Al

    
    thanks yas.  wagagagaga!!!  gotta hit that packy for my carryon luggage
    :').
    

    IT'S KINDA FUNNY...WHEN I DID DRUGS THERE WERE ONLY TWO BANDS TO LISTEN
    TOO...
    
    ZEPPLIN
    
    AND 
    
    FLOYD...
    
    NOW I MOSTLEY LISTEN TO JAZZ...AND MY HERO...SATCH.
    
    -STEPHEN

    
    note what doing drugs do to ones ability to spell zeppElin...
    
    :')
    

    ...and to type in Mixed Case!

    WhAT ArE U DoINg hErE oN
    
      SAturDay????????????????????????????
    
                  Friz*O
    

    I have another theory:
    
     Glam/happy music was big during the 80's because of the Ronald
    Reagen "Have fun, worry about things later" attitude...Just like that 
    certain type of music.
    Now it's later....The economy is shite,unemployment is wild and people
    are just plain pissed over-all. Which represents the type of
    hate/angst music coming out at the moment.
    
     Does this make sense to anyone? Do you think it could be true?
    
              Friz*O
    

    -1 & -2
    
    ALRIGHT FRIZ*O -- copping the WENDY*O tude ... she'd be proud!
    
    Also, smiles must look like this:
    
    	8*)

    OpPpPPPpPPSssssSsSsSSSssssssss!!!!!! SoRy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
     EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!8*) So Thair!
    
        Friz
    

>    Only 30?  I thought for sure you'd be pushing 40, based on your looks!
>    ;')

Whoa whoa whoa , wait a minute here. It's a fackin' conspiracy!!  :^)

Tigg, you and I have got to talk about this. ;^)

Hey JJ, isn't Buck the one in the pictures you showed me that looked
like he just stepped of the stage of Saturday Night Fever??? ;^)

-andy

    
    
    	
    		I plead the fifth!!  I plead the fifth!!
    
    	JJ
    

    Much to my surprise....I have to absolutely agree with Friz on both his
    theories.
    I think most people will always hold on to their"high school" favorites
    because its when most of us really started to get into music in a more
    social way; as a way of communicating to others (especially parents)
    as to who we are and as a way of classifying our own tastes and who we
    wanted to be associated with.  Which would follow lead into the
    difference of 80's "glam/happy" music, which alot of it at the time was
    considered metal and today's much heavier metal sound. I think
    not only does the crappy economy play into the more "angryer" 
    sound but the other sh** that everyone has to deal with AIDS, just
    say no to drugs(;) ),ect.., especially for teenagers who are a lot
    more limited in what they can "safely" do to rebel/break free/prove 
    their indepedence than what alot of us (older, more sophisticated,
    wiser ;) ) we could do. 
                 Just Call Me Rat

    re: .84

>    Much to my surprise....I have to absolutely agree with Friz on both his
>    theories.
>    I think most people will always hold on to their"high school" favorites
>    because its when most of us really started to get into music in a more
>    social way; 

    Like, no offense or anything, but that was my theory, not Friz's...  
    8^)

    I think I agree with Friz's theory about the popularity of music
    following the general mood of the economics and the country.  Kind of
    blew my mind when he first told me that (in my office Friday
    afternoon).  A very interesting thought, and it makes a lot of sense.

    re: Mike

    Rock music has *always* been about rebellion, from it's very inception. 
    People like The Who, the Rolling Stones, and Jimi Hendrix were prime
    examples in the late 60's.  Groups like the Sex Pistols, the Clash, NY
    Dolls, and others took over in the late 70's for the punk rebellion.
    Now you have groups like Nirvana and other's gaining popularity for
    their rebellious styles.  Seems to go in cycles of about 10 years... 

    I don't think that the majority of "rebellious music" being produced
    today is substantially different from that of years past.  Actually, a
    lot of it seems to have a similar feel to it.

    I don't consider your example of death metal to be particularly valid,
    since that style of music has such a comparitively small following.  I
    can't realistically ever see that style of music gaining a very large
    audience.

    gh
             

    Actually there were satanic/death metal bands 15 years ago, and they clearly
    had a market.  One example is Venom, who produced at least a couple of
    these albums as early as 1977.
    
    gh

    Gotta agree...
    Death Metal is just 'bout dead if it weren't for Metallica...

    -1
    
    Metallica ... Death Metal?!?!?
    
    
    NOT!

>>    Death Metal is just 'bout dead if it weren't for Metallica...
>>   Sad but true...


Cute!  (Sad But True...ya ya I get it!  {cool tune actually...} )  :^)

Wherever I may roam I keep seeing stuff about Metallica in this notes file.

 >   Death Metal is just 'bout dead if it weren't for Metallica...
    
    Say what dude?!
    Metallica's not Death Metal.  And I don't think that anything
    Metallica is doing is perpetuating death metal.  Certainly not with
    their latest album!
    
    Not being in college anymore, and not hanging around people who are
    into death metal anymore, I don't know whether it's popularity is going
    up or down.  I don't buy metal rags, so I can't judge by that either.
    
    Maybe Duy can tell us whether death metal is on an uprise or
    downslope...
    
    Duy?
    
    |KS|
    
    

    RE: .90 + .94
    
    I think Metallica started, or at least influenced, Death Metal.
    There popularity now kinda keeps them on the lighter side, but I
    have always thought that Metallica made it hip to crunch...
    
    So yeah you guys are right, they are not really Death Metal...but there
    pretty close...'specially there old stuff. IMO.
    
    -Stephen
    

    
    
    
    I wouldn't consider Metallica death metal...
    
    
    D'Whit-

    
    NO WAY!
    
    
    

    re: .102
    
    No offense or anything, Stephen, but Metallica bears little resemblance
    to real "death metal".  If you think they fit in that sub-genre, it is
    clear you have never heard any of it.  
    
    The vocals don't have the trademark sound and the lyrics don't have the
    same consistant content.  Death metal is *very* explicit in terms of
    occult, satanism, and gore.  The vocals are rarely discernable.
    Metallica does not fit this description at all.
    
    In any case, it seems that we are straying pretty far from the original
    topic of this note, so we should probably end this rathole of the
    discussion here.
    
    To try and get things back on track...
    
    Friz and I were talking a little while ago and we have both noticed a
    pattern around the Colorado Springs area.  None of the clubs that
    feature hard rock/pop metal bands that have opened up here have managed
    to stay open very long.  While there are probably some other minor
    contributing factors, my basic conjecture about the cause of this is
    that there's just not a big enough market for it here.  The question
    for you all is; Is there a better market for this music anywhere else?
                                                                          
    gh

    Hollywood...but alas you have to pay to play. 
    Good for the clubs...bad for the bands.
    
     Metallica was the ones to make speed metal...While they did originate
    this style they made it popular.
    
        Friz
    

    RE .105
    
    Well, maybe I haven't heard much Death Metal, but I did go see a band
    called GWAR where they were spewing fake blood all over the crowd and
    killing the President and ripping off heads and generally just maiming
    and killing...(all fake).
    
    I still maintain that early Metallica and Mega Death etc. layed the
    foundation for the sub-genre called Death Metal.
    
    And I also maintain that it is probably dying...
    
    I could be wrong.
    
    -Stephen

    GWAR is COOL!!!!!!!!!
    
      Friz
    

    RE: -2
    
    Hey, I hope you didn't think I was slammin' GWAR...I thought it was one
    of the most intense shows I have ever seen. 8*)
    
    By the way...that girl on stage...  0   0  
                                          >
                                        \___/
                                        . U
                                        .   ,
    
    
    
    -Stephen

    We like GWAR!

    Yuccckkk...

    I didn't think you were slammin' them...And I really do like GWAR.
     Have you seen the homevideo....I was rollin'!
    
         Friz
    

     The music really doesn't change , we just get stuck in our ways.
    As any young headbanger about old vs. new music...New will win out
    because it is essentially the sondtrack to thier lives..just as it was
    in ours. More feeling..Yes ! to you..and your perceptions.
    
     Jon Taylor

    The music is changing a lot but there are some bands that are playing
    the older style. It seems to me that some of the older stuff is coming
    back along with the Les Paul's...

>    Actually I think some of the above is present, but more subtle.  It
>    seems like Hetfield is wearing that "Samhain" t-shirt in every picture
>    I see of him.
    
    What does his t-shirt have to do with his music?  
    
    FWIW, Samhain is a band Hetfield likes, that's why he wears the shirt. 
    One of Glen Danzig's old bands.
    
    gh

    >Samhain is more than just a band.
    
    ...it's a desert topping!

    re: Mike
    
    Perhaps, but it's a t-shirt for the band that Hetfield wears.
    
    re: Buck
    
    Rollin!!!  8^)
    
    gh

    >Why would he bother to promote another band?
    
    Because Metallica is privy to such wide public visability now, it's
    easy for Hetfield to use the medium for personal reasons ... eg
    promoting bands that Hetfield personally thinks are very cool, but
    which do not have the means of exposure that Metallica enjoys.
    
    I think it's a pretty cool jesture, myself.
    
    Guns n Roses were notorious for this in their early day videos (before
    they got money and conceptual, not nec. in that order)  ;')

    I think it's extremely cool when a band that has made it big gives
    a plug or some free publicity to a good band that hasn't made it
    yet.
    
    Anyone who makes it big who thinks that they're the greatest and 
    doesn't give a sh!t about anyone else is a royal a***ole, IMO.
    
    Just because you make it doesn't mean that you have to stop listening
    to, and liking, and wearing the T-shirts of, other bands.
    
    Just my $.02, as usual. . .
    
    -- 
    Kevin
    

    
    Metallica gave a big boost to Faith No More a few years back when the
    only shirt that hetfield wore was a FNM. Plus in every interview when
    they were asked the reptitive question; "What do you listen to?" both
    lars and James said FNM.
    
    

    Funny, LA GUNS singer (whats his face) also wore a FNM shirt
    religiously on the bands C&L tour.

    Yeah if you go back and look at any of the Metal Mag covers (Especially
    RIP) with Metallica on the cover in 1988, there's a 99.9% chance he's
    wearin' a FNM shirt.
    
    

    Re: Faith No More
    
    and there's a good reason all these d00dz are wearin' FNM T's. . .
    
    FNM is a r00lin band!
    
    -- 
    Kevin
    

    Wrong!!!!!! FNM is pure crap at it's finest. BLECK!
    
       Friz
    

Wrong it's a dessert topping and a floor wax...

    Well, Frizzypooh, I guess you're entitled to your opinion if I'm
    entitled to mine.
    
    I like FNM.  I also think Metallica power sux dead gerbils through a
    dirty garden hose.  SO THERE!!!
    
    [FNM playing in a small club is a definite must-see if you want to
    see a band with incredible amounts of energy.  FNM shows are a like
    a circus.]
    
    -- 
    Kevin "kid *this*"
    

>    FNM shows are a like a circus.
    
    I could believe that, like the sideshow!
    
    Mike Patton's voice grates on my nerves severely, I can't stand to
    listen to it.
    
    gh

    For those who like FNM(me In_Cluded),Come see them Saturday_Nite
    at the New_Aud in Worcester,MA.   Tix still on sale and HELMET is
    openin!!!Shite...I'll be there and I'll buy you a drink After_Wards.
    
         Crazy_It's_A_Small_Place_Al

Since everyone is voicing their opinions...

I like FNM too.

Especially EPIC !!

jc

    I'd probably go just to see Helmet, were I close enough.
    
    gh

    >   Well, Frizzypooh, I guess you're entitled to your opinion if I'm
    >  entitled to mine.   
    
     Kevin....I was just saying what *I* thought. I din't for you to get
    mad!  I also think that you're entitled to your opinion. Chill.
    
    > I like FNM.  I also think Metallica power sux dead gerbils through a
    > dirty garden hose.  SO THERE!!!   
     
      Hum.....So do I! 8) Don't remember what kind of music I like?
     Chris is the one that worships Metallica....
    
       I  don't like Patton voice and I don't like their songs. No personal 
    offense intented.
    
     Friz
          

    Well, I don't like FNM either...
    
    Anyway, are they a rap band?
    
    *8-)
    
    -Stephen

    I give FNM a hefty thumbs up,in my opinion,a very good band!
    
    
    
    
                                                 Staynz

    I heard them a coupla years ago. LIked what I heard, but haven't really
    paid attention to them recently. 
    
    Haven't paid a whole lot of attention to anyone recently. 

    A whole different genre...

    Where is this new Aud?
    
    I like FNM, but not Mike Patton......  The guy ain't normal!
    
    |KS|
    

    
    I don't hear Slaughter anymore either. I take it the new album rots big
    time.
    
    
    

    
    	The New Aud is the new name for the Worcester Memorial Auditorium,
    	which is right near the Worcester Courthouse.
    
    							GTI

    Chris:Yea..It's not as good as the first Slaughter! The 'Real Love'
    video was third on Mtv even the video inhales.
    
     Friz
    

    Anyone hear Mark Slaughter recently lost his voice (no wise cracks!)
    ;') and they had to cancel like 6 weeks of their tour??

    Yeah...He had a node on his vocal chords but he went into surgery 
    and he's all better now. He couldn't talk for 6 weeks.
    
            Friz
      

    Re: .140
    
    > I like FNM, but not Mike Patton......  The guy ain't normal!
    
    Precisely!
    
    -- 
    Kevin
    

    Mark Slaughters voice is kinda cool...

    ...NOT!

    |KS|   I can relate to Mike(Tank)Patton.Much better than the first
    singer(Hudson?)..
    Mark Slaughter is"Maturin"in my eyes.He was Started out on Guitar
    Don't_Cha_Know???
    
    Lotta Shite goin on in Worm_Town this weekend.It's the 2nd Annual
    Collage_Fest.Where the town trys to Wel_Come the New Students.
    
    The New_Aud is at Lincoln_Sq.    But you know what I hate about it?
    The Pig_Pen is right Across the Street.And if you're lucky Enuff
    to spend a Free Nite there,In the Mornin they escort you Across
    the Street....Right to the Court_House.....Private_Escort_and_All!!
    
    
       Crazy_Fry_Day_Al

    I'm not keen on Mike Pattons voice but it annoys me less than Mark
    Slaughter's.Mark sounds incredibley whiney and irretating,kinda like
    Axl's voice lately especially on "you could be mine" which was good
    apart from him.
        The previous singer for FNM was Chuch Mosely(sp)
    
    
    
    
                                                 Staynz

    Leather pants are outta style???  S**T!
    
    gh

Greg - I can't fit into mine anymore, so if you want 'em...
:)

    Coop is weak. He left Rat in a bar by herself so he wouldn't hafta
    drink with me.

    (RE: .151 I entered the wrong command and blew my note away by mistake.
     It's_Fry_Day.)
    
     It was regarding Anchovi as the quintessential example of a commercial
     metal band trying hopelessly to redefine themselves as the genre goes
     into rapid decline...
     
     Anyway: can ANYONE figure out from which huge 60s hit the melody of
     Keep the Faith was derived?  (Basically, the song is a derivative of
     that melody over the Sympathy for the Devil rhythm track.)  
     Sis.

RE: Jesse

Shaddup, er I'll go to smackin' ya 'round!

RE: Mike

Lackanooky - swollen dangly bits.
:)

    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/
    
    
    Look at me tremble. 
    
    
    

Shaddap, ya lop earred varmint!

jc (Who HAD to go get his child!!)

    At least rat was main enuf to drop off clothes fer her yung'uns then
    meet me to drink more. 

             <<< LANDO::ADMIND:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;2 >>>
                                -< HEAVY_METAL >-
================================================================================
    Note 877.151          Commercial Metal losing it's appeal?           151 
GNUVAX::BUCKLEY "Hotel Illness"                      27 lines  30-OCT-1992 12:00
                          -< Anchovi - Hold the Mayo >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Just HAD to say that after 150 replies on the rapid decline of commercial 
    metal, I'm surprized no one has used the recent "metamorphosis" of Bon Jovi 
    as the per_f*cked example...  Me and bro_Buck were watchin them "up close 
    and personal" on MTV the other night.  Our conclusion was clear:  They 
    obviously sat on their burgeoning behinds in NJ for 4 yrs. trying to 
    design a concept for their band that would take them into the 90s and 
    ensure their longevity.  As they watched the huge success of bands like 
    the Black Crowes take shape, fear set in that they were has_beens. Then a 
    lightbulb went off over Jon Anchovi's hair_for_the_90's: let's go retro in 
    our muzac while still maintaining somewhat of a 90s look_and_feel.  The 
    end result is a disaster; A band completely and totally without a clue, 
    from the muzac they CAN'T play (because they have no roots in r&b) to 
    their confused image (no one's told Itchie Slamdoorza that leather pants 
    have since gone out of style.)
    
    Their new single, Keep the Faith, is essentially the rhythm track to 
    Sympathy for the Devil with the melody of some HUGE 60s hit over it that I 
    can't quite place for the life of me... (I think it might be "I'm Your 
    Captain" or some 3-Dog Night tune or something like that. Can anyone help 
    out on that one, I'm drawing a blank?)  And when they had the nerve to 
    MURDER a medley of sixties hits including the Animals' "We Gotta Get Out 
    of This Place," which I've yet to hear anyone cover correctly, well, me 
    and Bro felt we had no choice but to click to the horror movie on TBS that 
    was rated one star....
    Sis_t.
    
    

    Yeah,I watched"Maxamim_Over_Drive"also.   Just as bad.
    I can't think of what 60's song you're tryin to think of.
    
    And you guys who are worried because Leather_Pants goin outta style..
    You're not Listenin to me!!HELLO!!!I've been Tellin you to just
    keep on Wearin those Crushed_Velvet_Pants and You'll be in Style and
    Kool For_All_Eternity!!!!!!!!!
    
                    Crazy_Dig_It_Al

    
    Yeah, I saw Maximum Overdrive last night.  Pretty lame movie.
    
    The only good thing about it was the soundtrack.
    
    I just wanted to reach into my TV and strangle that whiney
    newly-wed b*tch.
    

    EXCUSE ME BUT??????  You worship The Crowes for ripping off all of the
    60's music and you CONDEMN Bon Jovi for do it? WTF????
    
    You can take ANY song and find a song that sounds like a song in the
    past. So take your bro and your propagnda back to your little world
    where EVERYTHING "the Buckleys" think is right and EVERYONE else id
    DEAD WRONG.
    
       I'm so sick of the pop metal bashing!!!!!! 
    
     Friz
    

    
    
                           grip
    
    

    Friz
    
    RE: RIpping off
    
    
    You obviously cannot discern between 
    
    - Bands which have taken a certain influence, add there own style, and
      produced a certain brand of msuic based on the original
    
    - Bands which have blatenly plagarized old music in forms of creating
      their own (difference here is lack of personal input).
    
    
    Now, the Black Crowes wear their R&B roots well ... sure they have
    their Stones/Faces/Motown tip-o-the-hat signature style, but they
    have injected enough of their own flair to REALLY call their music
    ORIGINAL.  Izzy and the Ju Ju's are the same way imho.
    
    Now the new BJ ... what I hear dlast night was, imho, the latter of
    those two choices listed above.  The band still PLAYS like they used to
    play their commercial metal music, but they were playing old R&B/rock
    stuff.  It didn't sound natural OR authentic.  It sounded strained,
    cold, and contrived.
    
    It would be like Lemmy doing an album of old Jackson 5 songs ... sure,
    he could do it, but what would it sound like?

re: Friz
    
>    EXCUSE ME BUT??????  
    
    I just *told* you people that *I* am the ONLY one to get excused around
    here!!!  Get with the program!
    
>    You worship The Crowes for ripping off all of the
>    60's music and you CONDEMN Bon Jovi for do it? WTF????
    
    I think it has to do with how *well* they do it.  The Black Crowes
    sound natural playing that kind of thing, Bon Jovi didn't.
                                                              
    gh

    Ok, ok, since it's hangin right in my face...
    
    69 replies.

    
    > It would be like Lemmy doing an album of old Jackson 5 songs ... sure,
    > he could do it, but what would it sound like?
    
    
    <<shudder>>
    
    scary thought.  I think I like it!
    

    I'd like to add here what should be - with all emotion removed - the final 
    analysis of what separates the Black Crowes from a band like Bon Jovi 
    trying to cop a 60s/70s feel in their music:
    
    The substance of the following comes from Chris Robinson himself, not from 
    me -- To constantly compare the Crowes to the Stones/Faces etc. is 
    short-sighted and shows a lack of "creativity" and musical scope on the
    part of the critic.  Certainly, a lot of us "white folk" from the North 
    would tend to think that the Crowes' musical roots go no deeper than the 
    lines in Mick Jagger's face.  The reality however, is that the Crowes' 
    ethnic and musical roots come from south of the Mason Dixon line... In 
    reality, their music is strongly influenced by people that most of us 
    have never heard of or listened to. For example, Robinson suggests that 
    the average Crowes critic *please* consider the influences of Bill Monroe, 
    Jimmy Reed, Gregory Corso, and maybe even the Marquis de Sade when 
    reviewing the origins of and influences on their music.

    
    
    Well so much for 30+ years in music.
    
    my .02 Speed up ANY Stones tune = Any Crowes tune.
    
                                           I guess I lack creativity
    
                                                                     mike
    

    RE: .172...  30+ years in music is not the issue... we're dealing 
    with a very elusive variable here -- innate talent.  The Crowes have
    it.  Other less fortunate musicians do not, regardless of how long
    they've been in the business.

    
     Well IMO I don't think the BC show me any innate talent. I feel they
    are at best average musicians. I also think they are ripping off not
    only their sound, but much of their material also. I don't really
    care what part of the country they are from, they sound so much like
    the Stones its a sin (not that I'm a big fan of the Stones). In some
    cases where you are geographically can influence a sound or style,
    but I just don't get that from this band. The first time I heard them
    I thought, oh great a bunch of Rolling Stone wannabies, I still feel
    the same way. Their elusive variable to me is lack of originality.
    Of coarse this is just my feelings about this group.
    
                                                           mike

    Well I don't know what you guys are listening to but I never once
    thought that the BC sounded like the Stones!!! Then again I didn't
    think Queensryche sounded like Floyd! I guess when I listen to someone
    I listen to them and not try and hear who they sound like and start
    comparing!!
               Rat

    
    
     I usually never start comparing a new group like that. But when the
    resemblence reaches out and its the first thing that hits you its hard
    to hear it other ways. I try to be as open minded to most everything,
    but these guys do nothing for me, except sound like someone else.
    
                                                                   mike
    

    Certainly everybody's musical ears hear something different, whether it's 
    the Black Crowes or Beethoven, Izzy Stradlin or Igor Stravinsky they're 
    subjected to.
    
    I guess as a writer (of words, not music) I would suggest that those who 
    hear and see the BCs as the Stones stretched like so much taffy into the 
    "breathrough band of the 90s" should at least spend some time reading Chris 
    Robinson's terrific lyrics.  Not since Prince and the inimitable James 
    Douglas Morrison have I heard such a promising lyricist.  (Although, as a 
    writer, I place Morrison in a league with the great poets and
    philosophers.) A classic Robinsonism from Sting Me reads as follows, "I got 
    one question, I believe it's subjective, what is a WASP without her sting?" 
    Robinson's prose can be affected, but if he ever publishes any literary 
    works, I'm buying for sheer, cynical dee_light.

    
    
     I will give them credit for some good if not great lyrics. I have
    listened to some of their material and found that the lyrical content
    is good, and really paints some good images. I can't remember the song
    title, perhaps something like "She talks to angels"? So I have really
    nothing bad to say about this aspect of the group.
    
                                                         mike
     

    
    
    	You have to be kidding me!!!  Good lyrics?  Great lyrics?
    
    	The BC are a very boring band, and the lyrics are very lame as
    well.
    
    	'I need a remedy, for what's ailing me'
    	'I found it'	
    	'I got it'
    	'I need it'
    
    	Yeah wonderful lyrics.....
    
    
    							-Seth

    -1
    
    SHUT UP SETH!!!
    8^)

    
    
     I didn't say ALL their lyrics were good. I said they write SOME good
    lyrics.
    
             mike
    

    But for the most part..I wouldn't go as far as to say CR is
    a lyric GOD.  HE is average at best and the music is Rolling Stones
    part II. 
              Friz
    

    
    
    	I guess I just have a different definition of 'good' lyrics..
    
    	You want good lyrics read the lyrics by Dream Theatre or
    	by Fate Warning, they have indepth lyrics..
    
    	I know what you meant Mike, I guess I was mostly disagreeing with
    	the other Buck... (NO NOT TWO!!!) ;)
    
    	Re: Shut up Seth
    
    	Ahhhh it is nice to be back!!!   hehehehe right Buck?
    
    
    								-Seth

    I need a Remedy...HA UH YEA!  (Insert a picture of a skinny stoned
    freak with greasy hair trying to James Brown.)
    
        Friz
     

    
    re: .183!!  amen!  and add rush to that list.  BC's blow monkey chunks.
    

    But then again, there is sometimes genius in minimalism, regardless of
    the art form involved.  This is perhaps most true when regarding the
    written word.  We writers have a saying when working on a piece, "I
    didn't have enough time to make it short...."  So, when you consider a
    lyric of brilliance like Prince's minimalist, "In France a skinny man
    died of a big disease with a little name..." you may think, "Hey,
    that's just normal, everyday words... nothing special.. I could do
    that."  But alas, therein lies the genius -- creating a mood, visual
    images, and making a serious statement with only a few words; and in
    Prince's case, colloquial words at that.

    
    
    	re: -1
    
    	No offense, but it sounds like a load of crap to me...
    
    	BC's lyrics are boring, and unimaginative... IMHO of course...
    
    	There is SO MUCH better stuff out there.....  To say BC have
    	good or great lyrics makes me cringe!
    
    						-Seth

    Now...Prince on the other hand is a genious. 
         CR is good at what he does but should not be considered
    the god that some make him out to be.
    
          Friz
     

    >>creating a mood, visual
    >>images, and making a serious statement with only a few words;
    
    
    I saw a literal case in point where the BCs created a mood. Pete Cook,
    and I were driving to Vicki Nixon's house when "...but I can love you
    better then him..." came on. Pete got all p*$$ed =, raving about how he
    hates guys like that. 
    
    The song did create a mood. IN this case I don't think it was a very
    good one. 

    Precisely! If you read my previous note, I said that Chris Robinson's
    lyrics are "terrific" but CAN BE affected... ("affected" means a tad
    over-blown, therefore, in other words, I was fully admitting to
    something less than genius in Robinson's lyrics, but I do maintain that
    he is a better than average writer.)  I DO NOT place him in the same
    league as someone like Prince or Morrison, but as writer, I do NOT
    consider him a throwaway lyricist either.  For example, the following
    from "Talks to Angels" DOES approach greatness:
    	She keeps a lock of hair in her pocket; a cross around her neck
    	The  hair is from a little boy, and the cross is someone she has
    		not met...  Not yet...
    

    
    >>	She keeps a lock of hair in her pocket; a cross around her neck
    >>	The  hair is from a little boy, and the cross is someone she has
    >>		not met...  Not yet...
    
    	What makes this so great?
    
    
    

    It invokes images and makes for lyrics that are interesting.
    If you can't see that you've been listening to Metallica too much...
    
    I agree with T on this one beause those lines do come close to genious.
        Now the music on the other hand is reharsh....
    
         Friz
    

    FWIW-Those lyric that Pete got mad at weren't written by Chris
    Robinson.  Those lyric are from their cover on the first album...
    Do you think Pete was jealous of guys that can love better than him?
    I mean...Why would someone be mad over that?
    
     Friz
    

>    Do you think Pete was jealous of guys that can love better than him?
>    I mean...Why would someone be mad over that?
    
    Yeah really!  I mean, I figure MOST people can love better then me!
    
    gh

    I figure most can't...I'm legendary in my own mind and a few others. 8)
    
            friz
    

    Naw, what Pete was mad at was that the guy in the song was trying to
    steal someone else's SO. 

    I hate to disagree with my fellow Metallica lover but that lyric IS
    pure genius! I have said this before (in fact about Metallica's
    lyrics), that lyrics can be as "deep" and brilliant as you want/have
    the ability to make them to be!
                                   Rat

    
    I never said it wasn't a good set of lyrics. But only asked what made
    them so great.
    

    (doesn't Pete Cook know that OPP is the name of the game?)
    
    Um, what makes "the hair is from a little boy, and the cross is someone
    she has  not met; not yet" approach genius is how MUCH Robinson is
    telling you and how MUCH he makes you think with only those few, simple
    words.  He's telling you, in part, why this woman shoots herself up
    with drugs to the point where she's lost touch with reality as we know
    it; she's had horror in her life, like the little boy she somehow lost,
    but she deals with it cause, "there's a smile when the pain comes [ie,
    shooting up] the pain gonna make everything allright."  Etc, etc.  And
    HE knows that she's on the road to ruin and that sooner than later,
    she'll meet her Maker, who she wears around her neck, crucified as He
    is on His own cross.

    
    Re: .200
    
    Well I don't think there is anything wrong with the lyrics and they
    aren't 'bad'. I just don't see them as genious material.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    

    Oy_Vay.  This is as much fun as Votin.  :_)
    
    Re.184.      You_Makin_Fun_Of_Me????
    
    All_Tho words are All_Important..I think CR says it right when he
    sing..."*ACK*_Tions_Are_Stronger_Than_Words"..
    
       Crazy_Yes_I_Know_He_Coinned_It_AL

    >All_Tho words are All_Important..I think CR says it right when he
    >sing..."*ACK*_Tions_Are_Stronger_Than_Words"..
    
    I thought the quote was "Actions speak louder than words"?

    ...and I'm a man of great experience.

    Pete cook always hated the following line...
    
    "...but I can love you better than him!"

    
    That's my motto. ;')
    

    Sorry Buck.
    I Should of put a (tm) after that"*ACK*"(tm.)
    
       Crazy_Al(copy_right.93)