Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    
    
    Yes, definately a Stryper Fan here. I think stryper is very talented
    and musical. I love the lead singer's voice...wish I could sing
    like that :-{ . My favorite song out of many from them is 
    
         I Believe  from the album "In God We Trust".
    
    I like listening to them not only for the lyrics, but because their
    music is excitting...I don't know ...either you like 'em or you
    don't. 
    
    I also like the group "MASS" .
    
    
    Sax
    
    
    

    
    
    You gotta hav'em.. I think their great.. one of the most talent
    wise band I've heard, great harmonies along with music.... I myself
    like the 'Yellow and Black Attack' even though its very hard to
    compare the albums... 'Reason for the Season' is also a great song..
    
    
    SLIM-

    Shout is Christian?  I thought it only Mass.  
    
    I have already voiced my opinion on these Christian bands,
    (I think it was sincere at first, but turned into a phony
    gimmick to get attention and rake in the bucks--Stryper's praying
    all the way to the bank)
                           
    The music is pretty good.  As much as I tried to dislike them,
    I couldn't help finding myself humming their tunes.
    
    Dilly Bar

    
    
    Blech. don't like them....
    
    The only tune I like is "Frosty the Snowman"
    
    It could be I'm extremely predujiced against them cause I *won't*
    listen to them cause of their ugly (IMO) outfits and way too much
    makeup...
    
    Just IMO...
    
    F.

    
        Before this turns into a 'yucky costume and make-up' note,
        I'd like to ask u to stick to the band's music/concerts.
    
        Not that u would've strayed or anything.  8^)
    
                                                       GTI
    

    
    	Re F.
    
    	Isnt it "Walking in a winter wonderland"..which btw is cool.
    
    	Stryper is an incredibly talented band but I hate their sound..wicked
    irritating.. I cant describe it but to me it seems like thayre playing
    through coffee cans... wicked tin sounding...
    
    	I'm not big on religious lyrics but that's just me.  The lead
    singer had an incredible voice..wasnt it a 6 octive range..or something
    like that.
    
    	There is another band that's similar to Stryper..but dont let
    the name fool ya..they're called Blood lust...another Christian
    band following in the footsteps of Stryper..
    
    BK
       
    

    I have "In God We Trust" on cd, and I had "To Hell With The Devil"
    (NOTE: Don't leave a record where the sun can get to it). Both albums
    are good and IMO they  play good stuff, but the singer's voice gets
    to me after mass dosages. I think they are sincere about the message
    in their music, you need not like the message but you have to respect
    their right to give it. After all, we are in America.
    
    
    the devil dog

    I agree with Pete when it comes to the talent question.
    
    I also think the bumble-bee outfits kick as*, but the song
    "Honestly" makes me yak.
    
    M. Sweet has an absolutely unbelievable voice, it does get on
    my nerves on songs like "Honestly" though, too feminine.
    
    I still think they're a good band though.
    
    /Motorbreath

================================================================================
ANT::SLABOUNTY "VW GTI 16V - Dust thy neighbor!!"    25 lines  31-JAN-1989 11:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, Pete basically said what I was gonna say.  The band sounds
    incredible, studio or live.  Michael has one of the best voices
    I've ever heard, and puts Dave Meniketti (Y&T) to shame with his
    lead singing and guitar.

    Brian - tinny?  Why do they sound tinny?  If u mean 'too much
    treble' then I gotta disagree.  Maybe u heard a bad tape, 'coz
    the CD blew me away.

                                                       GTI

                
                Shawn, you moving your own notes now??  That note
                is HARDLY 25 lines . . .
                
                Love the new title of the conference!
                
                - Wraith -
                
                

    I love Stryper! I heard the band on January 12th in the Lakeland
    Civic Center in Lakeland, Fl. and they were awesome!
    
    As a metal drummer, I must agree with ( was it GTI?) the person
    who said that Robert has a DREAM set! It's unbeleiveable!!
    
    A Christian Headbanger,
    
      Nemesis

         <<< IRDEV::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< Heavy_Metal - Discussion + deliberation. >-
================================================================================
Note 490.0                   Christian HM - Stryper                      1 reply
MERLAN::BLANCHARD "Slowly I turn..."                  9 lines  25-FEB-1989 08:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (This note is written for a fellow Heavy Metal Musician)
    
   	 Does anybody know who Stryper is? I would say that the
    are tops in the industry for studio work as well as live performance.
    	Don't miss them live, they are hot! Can't beat those harmonies
    with guitar and vocals.
    
    
    Paul  , aka... Stiggy 

    They were just here in Phoenix last Saturday!  They are awesome
    too.
    
    "I Believe in You" off of "In God We Trust" is the new video release.
    
    Mike

    I have a question about this band.  They obviously have some heavy
    material, why is it that they only release ballads as singles and
    videos?  Why don't they showcase their talant a little better? Is this
    just marketing, or what? 
    
    gh

    I have no idea Greg.  I would understand if they were on a Christian
    label but Enigma isn't a Christian label.
    
    I've seen some of their more aggressive stuff released too though
    so I wouldn't say they release ballads only.
    
    Mike

    
        RE: Mike
    
            They've never had a "heavy" video released.
    
            Actually, they HAVEN'T released a heavy single either,
            have they?
    
                                                       GTI
    

    When you look at 'heavy' in that light then I agree.  The rest would
    be "...it's only rock 'n' roll but I like it!".
    
    "Writing on the Wall" is heavier than most on the new album 'In
    God We Trust'.
    
    Mike

    
    
    	Ok, anybody else heard that Robert Sweet and the bass
    	player (names escapes me) were killed in an auto accident?
    
    	My brother says he heard it on the radio and the TV but
    	after the Duff McKagan bit...I'm not so sure I believe 
    	him...
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	I dunno....my brother has this habit of telling me stuff
    	like this and then I find out it isn't true....but I thought
    	I'd ask anyway....I actually hope he's making it up again.
    
    	JJ
    

    According to NewSound (promotors), they talked to their agent &
    there is no truth to this rumor, thank God.
    
    Their lastest video is "In The Beginning". Plays for about 45 minutes,
    cost $20, and is excellant. You get a good "inside look" at the
    Sweet brothers, Oz Fox and Tim Gaines, plus it has cuts of "Honestly"
    "All of Me", and 2 other non-ballads (I forget, but I'll look 'em
    up if you want....).
    
    A MUST for STRYPER fans....
    
    Bill

    The only other Stryper videos I've seen besides "Honestly" and "All
    of Me" are:
    
    "Calling on You"
    "Always There for You"
    "I Believe in You"
    
    I have them all on tape already including interviews with the band
    (recorded from "Real Videos").
    
    Mike

    
    
    
    		Thank God that rumor was'nt true!! I have that
    		tape.. its a must to have!! I also have about 
    		8 different albums of them, all assorted colors too!
    		I think thats cool that they release a certain amount
    		of colored albums.. 
    
    
    
    						JW-

    Yo Mike, they also have a vid for "Free".

    I'll have to find that one then.  "Free" is one of my favs by them.
    
    Mike

    Mike Sweet's produced an album for MASS, don't know what the album's
    title is, but I think MASS is more pop than heavy metal...
    
    Bill

                
                MASS is playing the Channel sometime soon.  I was
                talking with Gene  the  other  night  (guitar for
                MASS) and I guess  he's  really  happy  with  the
                album.
                
                - Rob who doesn't really like them myself -
                
                On the other hand, Stryper is the nutz -
                

    
    I've got the Mass album - IMHO it sucks the big one.

    .34:
    
    please excuse my ignorance, but what is the Channel?
    
    thanks,
    
    Ras

>    please excuse my ignorance, but what is the Channel?

The Channel is a popular nightclub in Boston. It holds about 1500 people, and
they alternate between national and local acts as headliners.

cat

    Re: MetalLord
    
    Most Christians ARE Anti-Religion!  Stryper's stance isn't surprising
    at all.
    
    Mike

    Very good point.  Boy, I bet that would stir up some heat in Soapbox!
    Mike, I noticed that too.  A lot of (especially northern) Christians
    tend to stay away from organized religion.  It's a bit different
    in the bible belt though...
    
    jc

	Stryper will be the subjest of an documentary on Channel 4
	called "To hell with the devil" on Christmas Eve.  Oh what
	a shame that I will be out pubbing and will *unfortunately*
	miss it!!
	
	;^)

	Flip

                Anybody heard  anything  about these guys??  It's
                been herds since  their  last  album!!   They are
                definately due for something...
                
                - Rob -
                

    Re: -1
    
    they're in the studio now.  Release date is scheduled for May.  They've
    hinted at some new directions for the new album,  with the goal being 
    some top 40 radio airplay.
    
    Mike

    
    
    	I've noticed they're sporting beards now to try and get
    	away from the "pretty" look.  
    
    	I hope their music gets better, too.
    
    	Tigga~~~~ who doesn't care for Stryper
    
    

    
    	"To Hell With the Devil" was a great album, and then they
    	went downhill on "In God We Trust".
    
    	It's too bad they're going in that direction (Top 40), al-
    	though the last album kind of hinted at that anyways.
    
    							GTI
    

    Let's hope they get some more power into their music.

    I don't see radio airplay being synonomous with wimpy music.

    SHow me where someone said they were wimpy.
    
    
    the devil dog
    
    P.s. How did the Sun's week go?

    >I don't see radio airplay being synonomous with wimpy music.
    
    It doesn't have to be, but it usually involves some sort of compromise
    for a hard edged band to have a song that gets significant airplay. 
    I'm not necessarily saying Stryper would sell out or anything like
    that, but it seems that's the pattern.
    
    When bands start doing market targetting and such, it seems to be the
    path downhill as far as the music is concerned.
    
    When I read your note, Mike, that said they were working toward getting
    more airplay, I kind of groaned and thought "Oh no, more sappy
    ballads...".
    
    Greg

>    P.s. How did the Sun's week go?
    
    Why can't you read? 

and in this corner weighing in at...

    
    Hey, Greg, does that mean you wouldn't want airplay?????
    Just wonderin'...(On the edge of being lost)...
    
    J.

    
      I heard new Stryper (Against the law) last week. Sounded pretty cool.
    I wish I could have gotten a better listen but I was in a noisy club.
    (The only way I like a club to be :') ) Guess there isn't any "God" songs 
    on this one. 
    
    								R.C.
    

    
    
    	Heard the new Stryper album the other day.  MUCH different
    	than their other stuff.  This album really rocks!  That 
    	cover song they released (Earth, Wind, & Fire?) is real
    	funky!  
    
    
    Steve

    
    Hoooeee! I heard that cover tune (on MTV).
    Wow. Great cover... these guys smolder. Are into the
    black leather look now, with the guitarist sporting a rather
    un-churchmanlike hairy face.
    
    /Motorbreath...

    
    
    The singer had the same look before the album came out...he
    looked horrible!  I guess he decided to go for the babyface
    look again.  ;^)
    
    
    Steve

What Earth, Wind and Fire song do they cover????

alan
_a_huge_EWF_fan_

    
    	The cover is "Shining Star".
    
    							GTI
    

    I ment to mention that I'd heard that cover awhile back (I guess there
    was a promo release of it before the album) and didn't care for it.  I
    have never liked that song and Stryper didn't improve it enough for me
    to like it now, even though I would say that I like this version better
    then the original EW&F version.
    
    gh

    Is it in stores yet?
    
    Mike

    	
    
    	Sure is!
    
    

     I got to hear this the other day. Everybit as good as To hell with the
    Devil. It really rocks. Definitly worth buying if you like Stryper. I
    don't think changing their image is going to hurt them as long as they
    put out albums like this.
    						The KER
    
    

    
    I have heard/seen this song/video about 3 times, and must say that
    it really didn't impress me much.
    
    SoHong
    

    
    
    	I think the Album rocks.. I was dissapointed that they
    	changed their image but all and all I don't think they
    	strayed to far from their 'Christian' Image.. just not
    	as up front with it...
    
    	'United' is a cool tune, along with 'Lady'
    
    	Jim-

    CCM reviewed the new release in their latest issue.  They say it is
    their best release to date!
    
    Mike

    
    
    RE: 66 - So many bands say that.  Like what else are they gonna say. 
    It's our most mediocre yet!!
    
    - kim

    Mike,
    	What's the general consensus about Stryper in the Christian
    'community'? I've heard that they're really not accepted, I've
    heard that they are accepted as 'okay', and I think it was 
    Jimmy Swaggart that said that since they were in HM/hard rock,
    that they could not be spreading the word of God, or benefitting
    their religion.
    
    I've always been curious about this.
    
    /Motorbreath

Re: .67

CCM is the magazine that gave the review.  Stryper doesn't review their own
albums.

Re: .68

Interesting questions you have their /Motorbreath!  The only Christians that 
really support Stryper are the radical teens to middle-aged Christians.  The 
Fundamentalists have been against them from the start.  I get into tons of
arguments with fundamentalists over this.  They have maybe one point to stand
on:  Romans 12:2 talks about not 'conforming to this world'.  Admittedly,
Stryper wears the clothes and makeup to fit in with the rest of the rockers, but
then I ask the fundamentalists why they buy Reeboks and Guess jeans.  That 
usually quiets them down. ;-)

On the other hand, I also ask them if they'd rather have their kids listen to
Black Sabbath than Stryper.  If you don't hold people's interest in the 
Christian way of life, you'll lose them.  Parents then don't have a clue why 
Johnny isn't interested in church anymore.  I'm only 27 and I admit that kids
have a lot more to put up with than when I was in high school.  Everyone needs
to feel that they fit in and Stryper allows Christian kids to feel like they 
can fit in and still be accepted.  Somehow, the fundamentalists just don't see
that until they've lost Johnny and don't know how to bring him back to the 
flock.

Obviously Jimmy Swaggart has his own problems and has lost tons of credibility
the last couple years.  He was the leader of the "HM/HR is of the Devil!" camp.
I dare say that Stryper has touched a lot of people's lives and spread as much
gospel as Swaggart.  Stryper ministers where Swaggart would never go too.  
Could you picture Swaggart in a bar, nightclub, or a major venue trying to
spread the gospel?  The basic Biblical test of a ministry is that if it "bears
fruit, it is of God, if it doesn't bear fruit, it isn't of God".  Stryper has
seen many people come into a personal relationship with Christ, and the 
fundamentalists have a hard time accepting this.

I think Stryper is great and I respect them for what they've been through.  It
isn't always easy to stick to your beliefs in this world, I know that firsthand.
They still have a lot of supporters in Christiandom, we're still working on
the rest.

It's funny, Amy Grant went through the same trial a few years ago due to a 
Rolling Stone interview.  She's now back to the level of popularity that she
used to be.  It took the fundamentalists all this time to learn the truth
and open their eyes.

BTW - There are a growing number of churches that have switched music formats
       to a more contemporary style of music.  Some even have HM/HR "house" 
       bands to lead worship services.  I've been to some here in Phoenix.

Rev. Mike aka "Preacher"

    Thanks for the informative reply Mike. Very interesting!
    
    What I wonder is HOW do they attempt to reach their audience
    and educate them about their religion?
    Just through their lyrics?
    Do they talk about it during their shows?
    Do they offer reading material along with T-shirts?
    
    Do you think their new image (at least what I saw on MTV) of the
    typical black leather/chain stuff is going to hurt their 
    popularity among some Christians, especially when the first single
    from their new album is a cover song, not especially carrying any
    religious message. Along with their new look, I immediately wondered
    if they still were a Christian rock band.
    
    /Motorbreath

>    What I wonder is HOW do they attempt to reach their audience
>    and educate them about their religion?
>    Just through their lyrics?
>    Do they talk about it during their shows?
>    Do they offer reading material along with T-shirts?
    
    Stryper, and many other Christian rock bands, approach this in their
    own unique way.  It all depends on what approach allows them to be more
    comfortable.  When Stryper first started, they pretty much stuck to the
    message in the lyrics and threw out pocket New Testaments to everyone
    in the audience at the close of the concert.  They've only started
    talking to the audience about Christ within the last couple years (I'd
    guess the last 2 releases).
    
    My favorite Christian artist is Phil Keaggy (guitar master in Christian
    Rock).  He limits his message to his lyrics, and even then that isn't
    very often because he does a lot of instrumental stuff.  He doesn't
    preach live at all.  The only literature you get from his concerts is
    from Compassion International which is an organization that allows you
    to sponsor starving children in 3rd World countries.  Everyone has a
    different approach.
    
>    Do you think their new image (at least what I saw on MTV) of the
>    typical black leather/chain stuff is going to hurt their 
>    popularity among some Christians, especially when the first single
>    from their new album is a cover song, not especially carrying any
>    religious message. 
    
    I don't think it will affect those that already support them.  There
    are Christian rock bands that dress a whole lot worse than Stryper!!!
    Christian music also has it's own share of Punk and Alternative groups
    which would make Stryper pale in comparison.
    
    You have to remember that just because they're Christians, doesn't mean
    that every song has to mention God in it.  With the exception of a
    couple songs, Stryper's last 2 releases would fall into the same
    category as the new one.  Many Christian groups don't mention God at all.
    It depends on what their burden is.  A lot just write about moral
    issues (i.e., abortion), drug abuse, peer pressure, lyrics of
    encouragement, or just plain fun music.
    
>   Along with their new look, I immediately wondered if they still were a 
    >  Christian rock band.    
    
    Pardon me while I have fun with this (I hear it a lot), but what are
    Christians supposed to look like? ;-)  Does Christianity mean not being
    able to have fun?  There are people that read in here that have met me,
    I wonder what they think I look like. ;-)
    
    People are people everywhere you go.  What makes Christians different
    is the committment they've made in their heart and soul to Christ. 
    Sure some act differently, but everyone does.  As for music, Christians
    may approach it differently, but we can still rock 'n' roll!  We thank 
    God for our talents, dedicate our efforts to him, and worship God by 
    giving back to Him (in worship) what he gave to us.  The music is just
    a vehicle of expression for that.  I say the style or format doesn't
    matter, it is the heart that matters!
    
    Mike

    
    	re:71
    I've got relatives and friends and co-workers that are Christians...
    I know what they look like!!! ;^)
    	Actually, what I meant is that the black leather and chains
    aren't usually associated with too many things of a positive nature...
    s&m, for instance, and that it was a marked image shift from the
    hyper bumble-bee look that they used to have. 
    
    /Motorbreath...thanks again

    I know, just funnin' with ya'.  I think the black leather is better
    than the killer bee outfits ;-)  Like I said, I don't think it'll be a
    problem with Christians that already support them.  However, for the
    reasons you state, it might give the fundamentalists more ammo.  In
    that case Stryper's problem is that they are more visible than other
    groups.  Like I said before too, there are groups that look a lot
    worse.
    
    Mike

    
    "Even the servant of devil can disguise himself as an angel of God"
    

     re.71 Well said reply. Ecspecially the part about it being in the
    heart.
    					The KER
    
    

    RE:  The "Christian" look ...
    
    I'm reminded of how the run_of_the_mill Christian's supposed to look
    every time I go to church ... a lot of folks still give me some weird
    looks because of my long hair.  Which is one of the reasons I don't go
    to church very much anymore - organized "religion" has turned into a
    show.  Some modern values, like BMW's, Armani suits, etc., are OK, but
    not long hair or metal music.  Sheesh ... money talks, even in God's
    house .... shame, huh ?
    
    Scary

    re: .-1                 

> shame, huh ?

    You got that right!  Not to get into the religion rathole (which I'd
    probably feel obligated to stop as a moderator), but I believe that
    kind of hypocrisy has turned more people away from God then all the
    Satan worshipers in this world combined.
    
    On the issue of dress, I think that Christians can wear whatever they
    feel comfortable with, it's not how you dress, it's what you believe
    and how you end up acting because of it that lets people know you're a
    Christian.  Clearly there are a lot of "christians" out there that
    would like to impose other judgements and rules, but I don't believe
    that was Gods intention.
    
    Back to the topic, Moto asked if Stryper were still a Christian rock
    group.  Well, according to the two interviews I've read the answer to
    that depends on what you define a "Christian rock group" to be.  If
    it's Christians playing rock music, then yes, they are still a
    Christian rock group.  If it's musicians playing music with an overt
    Christian message, then maybe they're not.  They've said they still
    have their faith, but they don't want to be preachers right now.
    
    gh

Like the Bible says (paraphrased), "...man looks at the outside, but God looks 
at the heart".

A lot of 'Christians' in their zealousness fail to realize that orthodox Jews
weren't allowed to cut/trim their hair.  I bet Jesus Christ had a mane that 
would make any headbanger proud ;-)

As for rules, Greg is right.  People try to inject to much of their own 
beliefs into the church.  That's why we have mega-denominations.  The Bible and
God's leading of your heart is sufficient foundation to base your life on.

Rev. Mike

    Yeah ... one church I went to had a beautiful stained glass window
    showing Jesus, with long hair and a beard - yet the majority of the
    congregation looked at me like a freak because of my hair and beard. 
    And no, I wasn't wearing a Slayer T-shirt either !  8^)
    
    The way I look at it - if Stryper turns a single head toward the more
    positive side of life, then screw the pinheads that condemn 'em.  JMO
    
    Scary

>    The way I look at it - if Stryper turns a single head toward the more
>    positive side of life, then screw the pinheads that condemn 'em.  JMO
    
    There ya go!  I'm with you on this one.
    
    gh

    I still say Whitecross is better than Stryper!  ESPECIALLY THE GUTIAR
    PLAYER!
    
    Mike

    ...and the Whitecross guitarist (Rex Carroll) plays thru an ADA MP1!

    Huh ?
    
    I guess I'd better run off and get this album then !!
    
    ;)

    NO !
    
    Cuz the dude plays an MP1.  Us MIDI Rack Pukes gotta stick together
    man.
    
    ;)

    jc, I have the "Triumphant Return" release which is Whitecross's
    latest.  Greg has another one of theirs, but I've never heard it.  Ask
    him about it.  There is at least one other one beside the 2 we have.
    
    Mike

    
    	I got "Against the Law" last night, and after 1 listen I like
    	alot of it.  Especially:
    
    	"Not that Kind of Guy"
    	"Caught in the Middle"
    
    	and 2 others that I can't seem to recall right now.
    
    	I'll have to listen to it again.
    
    							GTI
    

    
    	After another listen, it's getting better.
    
    	Except for the 2 ballads, this is a great album.  If you
    	like ballads, even better for you.
    
    							GTI
    

    I really want to buy this (and a few others), but my birthday is soon.

    
    	RE: looking like women
    
    	I still haven't heard anything from them (nor do I care to
    	actually) but the two brothers (Michael and whatever the
    	other's one name is) STILL look like women.
    
    	I think Oz Fox and Tim Gaines are the only ones who made
    	any attempts at making their looks a bit more masculine.
    
    	tigga~~~~

    
    	Geez, can't have any thin guys walking around now can we!!
    
    	If he puts on more weight he'll look more like a man?  Give
    	me a break.
    
    							GTI
    

    If their wives and children don't complain, why should we?  Once upon a
    time in here, I was harassed because I don't accept homosexual rights 
    and was accused of not having an open mind.  Does appearance determine 
    quality of music?
    
    Mike

    Ooops, I obviously forgot those smiley faces on that one!!

    
    
    	Stryper will appear on the ABC late night show "Into the Night"
    tonight.  In Boston, the show airs at 12:00 on channel 5.
    
    
    
    Paul

    thanks paul..
    
    
    My mom likes them.... ;^?
    
    
    

    
    re: .114
    
    They were EXCELLENT.
    
    /prc

    I completely forgot about it and missed it.  Didn't tape it either. 
    Can someone post what happened?  
    
    My 2 oldest had parent-teachers night last night so it slipped my mind.
    
    Mike

    
    They did one of the heavier ballads. They did it live, and it was
    flawless!!!
    
    Robert still has the stripped sideways drum kit...
    
    /prc

    
    
    well i taped it on channel five 5. 
    it was nightline.. 
    
    
    
    next time???
    
    :^{
    
    
    				wendy o'
    

    
       They were very impressive - great harmonies, and the guitar player
    ain't too shabby, either.

    another thought...
    
    I used to have their address. Anybody have it? (sometimes it's on the
    tape cover)?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bill

    Well I finally bought the new release.  I really like the new 'boogie'
    style they've adopted for this tape ala Van Halen.  This is easily
    their best one so far!
    
    Endorsements:
    -------------
    Michael Sweet & - Jackson/Charvel guitars, Mesa/Boogie Amps, preamps and 
    Oz Fox use        MIDI Matrix systems, DigiTech Signal processors, 
                      Eventide H3000 harmonizers, D'Addario strings, Dunlop 
                      picks, slides, and Wah-Wahs, Nady Wireless Systems, and 
                      Alvarez Acoustic guitars.
    Tim Gaines      - Ampeg SVT amps, Status Basses, D'Addario strings
    Robert Sweet    - Paiste Cymbals, Pearl Drums
    
    A lot of familiar faces get credits in the "Special Thanks & Liner
    Notes":
    
    Matt & Laurie Crouch - husband & wife host team of TBN's "Real Videos".
                           Stryper is on their a LOT!  
    Michael W. Smith - need I say more
    Grover Jackson -       "
    Randall Smith  -       "
    Dino & John Elefante - Mastedon nucleus via Kansas [no the group]
    God            - "who has made everything happen"  [was there ever a doubt]
    
    Mike

    The following is a review of Stryper's Pueblo, CO. appearance.  It is
    cross-posted with the author's permission.
    
    Mike
               <<< PNO::$1$DUA33:[6EZ.HEISER.NOTES]CCM.NOTE;3 >>>
                       -< Contemporary Christian Music >-
================================================================================
Note 45.68                           STRYPER                            68 of 68
PIRATE::SIMON                                        31 lines  29-OCT-1990 11:45
                           -< Well I went and .... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WELL I WENT TO, opps! Don't mean to yell but me ears are still
    ringing!!  I thought they put on a pretty good show. Don't know
    why they bothered to do Shining Star, other than some good visual
    effects, I thought it was the weakest song of the entire set. Oh
    well maybe cause I'm old enough to remember the original!!  They
    didn't bother to mention anything about thier beliefs and such
    which I feel was too bad. If they are Christians why be ashamed
    to say so?  Even after the songs that got the crowd (only around
    350-400) going were the ones like To Hell With The devil, and
    Makes Me Want To Sing. Seems like they could have put in just a
    brief word from the sponsor!! Anyway, the show was pretty good
    musically and the songs were on a positive nature. Their 
    appearance is not as pretty as before, no make-up or hair spray.
    Drum set is blue and black, not yellow and black, bass and guitars
    looked the same.
    -.67 reminds me of SOME of van Halens music
    They played On Fire towards the end of the show!  Not neccesarily
    the Van Halen song that I feel a "Christian" would choose but done
    real well!
    Well enough about the concert.
    I guess it did sum up my general feelings on the matter of STRYPER
    and other groups along thier lines, what's the word, I know this'll
    upset some of ya, but it is my only my opinion, lukewarm. I guess
    I feel that you shouldn't be afraid to speak or sing or write about
    Jesus, our Lord and Savior. There are enough individuals and groups
    out there that do and are successful in man's sense of success along
    with being what is truly successful in the eyes of our Lord!
    End of the sermon for today!! 8^) !!
    
    God bless you all, 
                      Justin

    The LA Times reports that Stryper will be headlining a small tour in
    rock clubs before hitting the road as the number 2 act on a triple bill
    with Ratt and Vixen.
    
    Mike

    My favourite on the new album is "Shining star". Excellent cover.
    I have to relisten the album as actually it recalls me (instrumentally)
    Van Halen, band which I respect but which is not exactly my cup of tea.
    
    Sorin

    I heard a song off the new album (not "Shining Star" which didn't do
    that much for me) last week before the concert (that I had to miss) and
    thought it was HOT!  Definately a good sound.
    
    Looks like I need to pick this one up...
    
    gh

    I love the album!  It has a lot of HOT songs on it, IMHO!
    
    Mike

    Despite all the grumblings, the Christian bookstores I visited
    yesterday are carrying the new release.  I guess we're just more
    radical in the southwest ;-)
    
    Mike

    I heard that Two-Time Woman was going to be their next single. Has
    anybody heard any airplay or seen a video to it? 
    

    
    
    	Have'nt heard any airplay, but the video is out.

     The Ratt / Stryper / Vixen world tour has been cancelled.

     Do you know why?
           The KER
    

    I haven't seen any other details yet.
    
    Mike

I know one of my daughters is going to ask me what tape I'd like for 
    Christmas.  I either want Stryper's "To Hell With The DeviL" or their
    latest release, BUT:
    
>>                              -< Against The Law >-
    
Is that the name of the album itself??
    
>>    style they've adopted for this tape ala Van Halen.  
    
    Pre or post DLR??
    
    
>>    This is easily their best one so far!
   
    Do others in here agree??
     
    
         Chris D.

    
    Soldiers Under Command is my favorite, the one before it is good too.
    The new one is the best in some time, I like it alot but not as much
    as their earlier stuff.
    
    I heard Winter Wonderland this morning. Stryper ROOLZ the universe!
    
    /prc
    
    

    I 2nd SUC as my fav Stryper album.
    
    Buck, had had front row seats for Stryper, and got whacked off the head 
    by Michael Sweet with a bible!  ;^(

>>                              -< Against The Law >-
>Is that the name of the album itself??
    
    Yes.
    
>>    style they've adopted for this tape ala Van Halen.  
>    Pre or post DLR??
    
    You mean post DLR or pre SH ;-)  I was referring to the DLR era. 
    Confused yet? ;-)
    
>>    This is easily their best one so far!
>    Do others in here agree??
     
    Better yet, who else has the album or has heard it all besides me?
    
    Mike

    
    	I have "Against the Law", but I wouldn't say it's the best.
    
    	My favorite is "To Hell with the Devil" ... AtL has too many
    	"ballady-type" songs, if I remember correctly.
    
    	I have SUC and TYaBA on record, but haven't listened to them
    	for a long time ... I'll have to take them out.
    
    							GTI
    

    Re: ballads
    
    It only has 2.  Just as many as the rest.
    
    Mike

    I haven't heard all of the new album, but I heard one tune awhile back
    that really cranked!  Been thinking about pickin' it up, but haven't
    gotten to it yet.
    
    gh

    Enigma has filed for bankruptcy!  Not sure how this affects the band
    though.

    Mike

    Anyone have any news on a tour or how Enigma's chapter 11 affects the
    band?
    
    I've never seen them live and would like to see how they are live.
    
    Mike

    Some news leaked out while I was gone:
    
    Stryper has a new label!  There's a full page ad in the new CCM that 
    says Hollywood Records is releasing a greatest hits album called "Can't 
    Stop The Rock: The Stryper Collection".  This release also features 2
    new singles "Believe" and "Can't Stop the Rock".  But the really good 
    news is that they're re-releasing the *ENTIRE* Stryper catalog from 
    "Yellow & Black Attack" to "Against the Law".  Looks like the stories 
    about Enigma filing Chapter 11 were true.
    
    Other songs on the new album are:  Soldiers Under Command, Free, Always 
    There For You, Lady, To Hell With The Devil, In God We Trust, Honestly,
    Two Bodies (One Mind One Soul), Together As One, and You Know What To
    Do.  In the liner notes, they talk about how Stryper is sick of everyone 
    criticizing them and basically they take it out in the song "Can't Stop 
    The Rock".

    Now for some tour rumors from "rec.music.christian".  Some tour has to
    happen to support the new label and release!
    
    1. Stryper headlining a tour with Guardian and Bride opening up.
    2. Stryper and King's X double bill.  This would be my vote!
    
    Mike

    2coolness!!!

    
    
    	I've heard the two new songs.. It seems they went back to their
    	old style... and the Greatest hits album is already out...
    
    	My friend is part of the fan club and they sent him a cassette
        single of the new songs...
    
    	CooooOOooOOl.
    
    
        	

    
    GOOD news. Stryper kicks major butt, and Michael Sweet has one of THE best
    voices in the business (next to Kiske, Dickinson, and Halford)

    
    
    
    FRIENDPOSE! HAHA! 
    
    
    Stryper does kick some MAJOR butt! they are INCREDIBLE live! 
    
    WP-

    
    re: -1
    
    Definitely!

      Stryper are one of the reasons I started playing drums!!!!
    They were the only band my parents would let me listen to.....
    
      They were also my first concert......THEY KICK @$$!!!
    
       I met them all also.....very cool!
    I have an autographed poster of The Yellow And Black Attack!!!!!!
    
       My friends and I used to enter airband contests(hey,we were 13 at
    the time.....It was the "cool" thing to do) with Stryper songs!
    We'd get all deck out and make fools out of ourselves but we had loads
    of fun!
    
                    Frizkid
    

    I had front row seats for Stryper on their Soldiers Under Command tour,
    and got whacked off the noggin by a Bible tossed my Michael Sweet!
    Still got the Bible...

    I've always wanted to see them live, but never had the chance.  For
    some strange reason, they don't get booked here.  They had 2 dates fall
    thru last year.  Maybe the Enigma failure had something to do with it.
    
    Mike

    
    Jack has one of those bible deals also...
    
    This is one of the few bands I've wanted to see but always managed to
    miss.
    
    I always won my air band contests playing Night Ranger :').
    
    

I picked up 'Against The Law' and gave it a listen last night - I was really
surprised at how much I liked it! The only other Stryper I had heard was 
'To Hell With The Devil', and that never impressed me that much. But this
album smokes! Its got a great (!) production, really good songwriting (nice
funky stuff), and some really good performances (especially Michael Sweet's
vocals!).

alan

    I"ve also been impressed with what I've heard from "Against The Law".
    
    gh

    care to elaborate on that?

    They sent everyone on their mailing list a cassette of the 2 new songs
    from the "Can't Stop the Rock" compilation album.  The song "Believe"
    was also made into a video.  "Can't Stop the Rock" is an old Roxx 
    Regime song with added words from many of the group's past songs
    referred to.  The tape also has an interview with Robert and Michael
    Sweet, taken from a recent 90 minute interview on TBN's "Real Videos".
    
    Oz Fox recently joined Guardian on stage for a cover of "To Hell with
    the Devil".  He's also produced both albums for this band.
    
    Mike

Article 2400 of rec.music.christian:
From: danny@utkux1.utk.edu (Danny McCampbell)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Stryper
Date: 16 Sep 91 19:57:05 GMT

Well, I saw an interview with Stryper on TBN's True Video's.  Stryper's views
were that they were going through a rough time as they were recording the
album, and that they regretted ever putting it out.  They claimed that there
next album would show all the boldness in christian lyrics as well as the heavy
metal that this album portrays.  I was curious if anybody else had any comments
on this or if anyone had heard anything else.

    
    
    	I like Stryper alot... And I was a little disapointed when they
    	changed on their last album... I liked the album, but it was really
    	Stryper...
    
    	They tried a new aproach and it flopped... so now they're goin back
    	to what made them big in the first place....
    
    	JW-

    Shows are currently being booked for a Stryper / Guardian / Bride tour.
    Should be awesome!
    
    Mike

    Nov 15: Stryper (w/special guests Bride, Guardian, & Helen Roar)
                Deringers, Brockton, MA
    

    
    
    
    	NO WAY!! YYAAAAAAAA!!!! I WILL be at that show!!!!

    
    Stryper at Derringers?!?!?!  Gay!!!  Like I'm going to some dump in
    Brockton.  They could at least play in Boston...
    
    

    
    
    
    	Ya, your right Rob, some dump in Boston would probably be
    	better.....
    
    
    

    
    definately. id rather drive 45 minutes to a dump than 80.  man wish
    they still had cool nights at narcissus.  that place was nice.  axis
    blows.
    
    

    
    
    
    	Ya, Narcissus is cool... They're suppose to be having a WAAF
    	battle of the bands there sometime in OCT. from what I heard,
    	but besides that, they don't have metal night there anymore....
    
    	

    re-1  NO WAY!!!!!!!!!
    
     I'm in hell.....
    
               Frizkid
    

    re: Friz
    
    So, you hurt, so you cry today.
    
    
    BJ

     HA!HA! So I cry...So I hurt....So what's new?
    
                   Frizkid
    

    
    
    WHAT!?! Man, 1st CC outta Poison (I can handle that) Then Vince Neil
    outta Crue, now this?!! 
    
    Actually, I could sorta see it coming, when I saw them at Deringers
    a few months back, he did'nt look the same...

    
    hey as long as nobody leaves any of my bands I'm happy...
    
    Friz, I can relate... I just thought about Hetfield leaving Metallica,
    and I fainted... I can understand now...

    It's not so funny when it hits home is it?
    
                        Frizkid
    

    Anyone know why he left?  What will he and the band be doing in the
    future?
    
    gh

    
    I think he wants to race motorboats...

    
    	Oh, he could never swim fast enough to keep up.
    
    							GTI

    re: -1...........AHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA!!........loved
    it!................../k

    Michael Sweet has not left Stryper. Stryper is hard at work on
    their new release with their new record label, due to be released 
    at the latter end of the summer.
    
    
    Snake

    
    so lets see, so far michael hasnt left stryper and they are hard at
    work on a new album, and just heard in an interview with ratt,
    dimartini is still in ratt and they are hard at work on another
    album... what next, cc is still in poison and vince wasn't really
    fired...
    
    

    -<somebody is lying to ya>-
    
         Yea, and it's you!!! Michael said he had thought about leaving
    but decided to stay!!
    
    
    snake

    ....maybe the Devil made him do it???.......just a guess......../k

    
    
    	Saw Michael Sweet on the tube last night.  I didn't hear him give 
    a specific reason as to why he left but he did mention something about
    the possibilities of a solo album and getting a new band together.  He 
    even suggested he may hook back up with Stryper in the future.
    
    
    Paul                       

>                               -< Religiavision >-
    
    You've been listening to TOO much Soul Asylum, Paul!
    
    8^)

Is Michael Sweet's video the cartoon???  I kind of like that tune...

Tim

    
    
    	Re: Greg
    
    	>>You've been listening to TOO much Soul Asylum, Paul!
    
    	Actually, a lot of Du and Fugazi.  "Religiavision" is always in my
    head... one of my all-time favorite songs.  Hmmmm... I think I know what
    I'm listening to on the ride home tonight. 8^)
    
    
    Paul

    Where, and WHY do you think Stryper lost it??
    
    I mean, they just kept getting better and better...everyone liked them,
    and they seemed to be doing well with the MTV avenue... 
    
    Was it their change in direction?  A loss of faith?  A change in market
    they weren't able to keep up with?  What are your thoughts and ideas
    about the demise of this awesome band?
    
    
    Buck, who still has an official "stryper" bible (which Michael Sweet
    beaned me off the noggin with in Wormtown!)  8^)

    
    
    
    Ahhhh.. beamed off the head with a bible.. At least that explains
    a few things....

    I think they lost popularity with the secular crowd when the novelty of
    the Christian rock thing started wearing off (and as the market for
    poseur bands started diminishing).  They tried to change with the times
    on their last album, but I think it was a little late and a little
    drastic.  It's a great album though, my favorite of all the stuff of
    theirs that I've heard! 
    
    Unfortunately, that particular change seemed to kill some of their
    popularity with the Christian music market.
    
    gh

    Re: last 3
    
    This has nothing to do with why they split up though.

    
    I heard rumor that Micheal Sweet was in Fitchburgh awhile ago hooked up
    with someone there to start a new band again. Just a rumor from the
    laudry mate.
    
    
    KL

>    This has nothing to do with why they split up though.
    
    I didn't say it had anything to do with why they split up, I was only
    talking about my observations on how they lost popularity.  I didn't
    make any statements about why they split up.
    
    gh

    Recently on "Real Videos", Michael Sweet said that he has a new album 
    coming out this summer (or maybe this fall).  I've heard some of his 
    songs, and they are pretty good.  
    
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: Phil.Powell@launchpad.unc.edu (Phil Powell)
Subject: Stryper 

I wanted to wait until Soae to post this but due to a LOT of pressure, I
have decided to come out with the truth!

Actually, I have been in regular contact with the new guitarist of
Stryper for the past few months and know the whole story.  His name is
MIKE BAILEY.. he lives in Sterling VA for now (but will soon be moving to
LA with his wife and kid).. he's a top-level graduate of Berklee College
of Music who studied under great guitar greats including Paul Gilbert (Mr.
Big)... he plays Jackson guitars including a specially-designed Jackson
Randy Rhoads... he has been a Stryper fan since I've known him (that being
about 5 years) and has always been able to play all of their songs..

He also said that as for the rumors of Bride and Holy Soldier, they are
nothing but rumors.. as a matter of fact a LOT of singers have seen videos
and cassettes for an audition (Mike describes it as "two or three bins
worth")..

Robert Sweet has not officially announced the new bassist yet but will
most likely this month on Heaven's Metal Video Magazine..

But that's what I got!

Phil

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80

    Michael Sweet's solo debut album will be out in March.

    
    I got the latest/first Michael Sweet solo album.
    
    I have only listened to it once or twice, but was not able to give 
    it full attention.  I wouldn't call it heavy metal or even close.
    
    It is getting good reviews in the CCM (contemporary Christian Music)
    arena.
    
    #24
    
    PS.  Mike Heiser - what do you think of it?

    I've only heard the one single off it on the radio, but I like it.

    
      I heard the bad a few months ago on the Christian Channel...The
    Boys are Sweet.... ;-)
    
    
       His hair is Normal now....
    
    /Sax
    

    Christmas time -- time to get out all those old Stryper albums and rock
    out!!

    
    
    	I don't know why but seeing this note made me remember.....
    
    	Was flipping the channels last night and caught an old Swamp
    	Thing re-run.....
    
    	...with Mr. Hair Adam Curry as the main plot........  visions
    	of BK......
    

Stryper

With long womanish hair, earrings, mascara, lip-gloss, eye shadow and
effeminate clothes,
Stryper demolished any convictions left in Christian music! How Christians
tolerate such
ungodly behavior is frightening! And despite the Bible's clear warnings! 1
Corinthians 6:9
says ". . . Be not deceived: neither fornicators, . . . NOR EFFEMINATE, . . .
shall inherit the
kingdom of God." The demonic creatures from the bottomless pit in Revelation
9:8 are
described as "their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as THE
HAIR OF
WOMEN. . ."! But what's the Bible got to do with it. . . 

Stryper is not exactly "good little Christian boys." In 1989 Stryper toured
with secular
rockers White Lion. Drummer, Greg D Angelo, says, "We threw a party . . .
About two in the
morning ROBERT SWEET WAS WHACKED! DRUNK! He was being dragged around on his
tiptoes by two women holding him up!" (RIP, June, 1989, p.41) Stryper also
toured with the
perverted secular group WASP (whose name stands for We Are Sex Perverts). WASP
singer
Blackie Lawless drinks blood on stage from a human skull. WASP spreads their
satanic
message, as they tell young people the vicious lie that Lucifer loves them, in
"Sleeping in the
Fire":

     "Taste the LOVE,
     THE LUCIFER'S MAGIC
     That makes you numb
     You feel what it does and you're drunk on LOVE
     YOU'RE SLEEPING IN THE FIRE!"

On the back of WASP's album reads, "The gods you worship are steel, AT THE
ALTAR OF
ROCK AND ROLL YOU KNEEL." The concert tour was called "HEAVEN AND HELL"! 

   " . .what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what
communion hath
          LIGHT with DARKNESS? And what concord hath CHRIST with BELIAL. . ."
                                    2 Corinthians 6:14-15

Bass player Steve Gaines says , " . . . we NEVER wanted to get caught up in
the whole
Christian music scene in the first place. . ." (Inside Music, Oct/Nov 90 p.16)
Robert Sweet
confesses, " . . . we're about the MOST UNRELIGIOUS Christian band you could
imagine. .
."(Hit Parader, Nov. 1986, p.21) And according to lead singer, Michael Sweet,
"We don't
consider ourselves to be overly religious. . .In fact, religion has NOTHING to
do with what
Stryper's all about."(Hit Parader, Feb. 1987, p.41)

Stryper guitarist Oz Fox's real name is Richard Martinez. Why does Richard use
the name Oz
Fox? Because of an obsession with satanic rocker OZZY OSBOURNE! In fact, on
their
Reason for the Season album, Stryper's guitarist is listed as "OZZIE" Fox!

The name Stryper supposedly comes from Isaiah 53:5 (with his STRIPES we are
healed), but
in Youth magazine, Stryper guitarist Oz Fox tells the real reason: "One day
Robert came up
with Stryper because it rhymed with hyper . . ." (Youth, Jan. 1987, p.10) It
has nothing to do
with Isaiah 53! They admittedly didn t make the connection to Isaiah 53 till
somebody showed
them!

Stryper wears the number "777" supposedly depicting the Biblical number of
perfection. But
"777" is highly esteemed in witchcraft and satanism! Satanist Aliester Crowley
wrote a book
titled "Liber 777". The satanic group Danzig (see our tract Rock Music: The
Devils Advocate)
has a song titled "777" The Treasury of Witchcraft says of the number seven:
"this number, in
occult rites, possessed mystic implications . . .POWERFUL: TRIPLE REPETITION
is
characteristic of magic ritual." (Treasury of Witchcraft, p.23)

                         Stryper wears the colors yellow and black.
         But did you know yellow and black is the color of the devil's livery
or clothing!

     Devil's Livery
     "According to mediaeval legend, the livery of the Devil is Black and
Yellow; Black
     indicating Death, Yellow implying Quarantine."

     (Treasury of Witchcraft, Wedeck, p.111)

In a poster, dated August 12, 1982, for the band Roxx Regime with Michael and
Robert
Sweet. On the poster "777"'s are displayed in the corners! And they're called
the "yellow and
black attack" -- same as Stryper.

But their conversion to Christ took place in 1983 -- a year later! But they're
displaying the
"777"'s and "yellow and black" the year before they're saved!

Stryper's unique triangle logo (with a curved bottom, outline around the edge
and rays
emitting) on the cover of "In God We Trust" is nearly an exact copy of
satanist Aliester
Crowley's infamous triangle! Could the Holy Spirit of the Bible possibly be
the one inspiring
these Christian Rock stars to copy satanic symbols! Not once. . . but over and
over and over!

                         WHO COULD IT BE???

On Stryper's video "In The Beginning", you see scores of young people flashing
the "satanic
salute"! NOTE: If you didn't take the link on Amy Grant and the satanic salute
here is more
info on the salute..

Robert Sweet makes a startling admission to the truth about rock music in RIP
magazine:

     "As a matter of fact, the band was one thing that was making us turn and
walk the
     OPPOSITE DIRECTION from Christianity, because, let's face it, when you're
out
     there playing rock 'n' roll, and you're having a real good time doing
your own thing
     it's not that you hate God or anything -- you just don't want to think
about Christ,
     because what he does is he exposes a lifestyle. If you're doing something
you like
     doing, AND GOD SAYS NOT TO DO IT then you're not going to pay attention."
     (RIP, April, 1987 p. 49) 

Did you read that? "...walk the OPPOSITE DIRECTION from Christianity,...AND
GOD SAYS
NOT TO DO IT..." These Christian rock stars (if they're really saved) KNOW
deep down in
their heart that rock music IS NOT HONORING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST! And that's
why
they will not mention Him! Instead they talk about "values", "self-esteem",
etc. But values,
self-esteem -- won't keep you out of hell!

Jesus says in John 14:6 says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH,
and THE
LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    yup, 10 years ago I was really down on those guys. Now I've discovered
    that the hypocrisy on the other side of the fence is worse because it
    tends to destroy people's lives where as these guys were just
    destroying their own. If you like what you're doing and god tells you
    not to do it, you're going to ignore it. Ha. Pastors of churches do the
    very same thing.

uh, Glenn... I think that's called "sinning." And, since we're all 
sinners, and since pastors and everyone on either side of the fence are also
human, and therefore sinners, it goes without saying that occasionally
people willfully disobey God's will, be they the Pope, pastors, or guys in
bands.
Your influence on people, ie. your ability to "destroy people's lives" has
nothing to do with it, though I'd argue that a person in a position to
influence others should work harder at being a good role model, I would
also argue that the only person capable of destroying your life is you,
be that through acting in a way you know is detrimental, or by allowing
others to make decisions for you (ie. forfeiting your common sense).

If you think that more lives are destroyed on the "other side of the fence"
then perhaps that's saying that there are more ignorant people on that 
side. Allow yourself to be guided by other people, and odds are you will be
injured.

    the difference is, on the other side when you hold up a standard and you
    don't live up to it you create disillusionment. I does affect a lot of
    people. When you trust a pastor, a board member, a priest or what have
    you and they end up abusing you and using you, it destroys based on the
    fact that you don't expect it from someone holding up a standard. It
    destroys faith, which is perhaps what I should have said as opposed to
    lives.

    How would you rank the sin of a priest that molests a child with that
    of a Christian Rock Band singer getting drunk and partying? Which is
    most destructive? Which is self destructive? Is a 12 year old boy
    destroying his own life when a priest sodomizes him? based on your
    assumption it obviously is.

    It seems you are incapable of being deceived therefore you'll never be
    hurt by the very convincing liars out there. They're on both sides of
    the fence, to be sure, but the ones holding up a holy standard are the
    most dangerous because at some point you have to trust them. One never
    has to put their trust in a rock band.
                                     

BTW, Oz and Tim are in a band called Sinndizzy.

I thought about qualifying the "responsibility" part of my note, but expected
you to understand that I would be excluding mentally incompetent people,
children, senile people, pets, etc. 

What's wrong with holding up a standard and not living to it? Why would you
become disillusioned? Does the fact that someone fails at living up to a
standard 100% of the time mean that aspiring to live to that standard was
wrong? People are human. A murderer reading you the bible is telling you
the same words as a pastor. Does that mean that the words are better coming
from the mouth of the pastor? There is no one who doesn't fail, Glenn.
If you're basing your faith upon whether the messenger is strong enough to
never sin, then you're placing your faith in the wrong place.

I would rank the sin of the priest molesting a child as worse than that of
a guy drinking, but what is the logic of your question? Is the crime not
as bad when someone who is not a priest commits it? Is the crime worse when
it's committed by a priest?  

The only faith that is destroyed is the faith in that person, or in people.
Why would your faith in God be changed by the failing of a person? You have
faith in God, not in church. The church is controlled and run by people...
not God. 

Is the person who commits suicide at the suggestion of a "leader" destroying
his own life? Whose responsibility is his life?

I'm capable of being deceived, but not enough to shake me from my foundation
of beliefs... I may be fooled into buying a vacuum cleaner but not into
hating someone, or changing my image of myself.

You say that at some point you have to trust people who preach the word of 
God. Why do you say that? Why is trusting someone who is in a church more
dangerous than trusting your neighbor?

I don't understand your logic.

    If a church is going to work, there has to be a hierarchy otherwise
    nobody is in charge and the church dies. There has to be leadership.
    You have to trust these leaders to hold up the standards that you hold
    to. When you say something to your pastor in confidence, you trust him
    to keep that confidence, you trust that elders and deacons will
    prayerfully seek the will of god for the fellowship you are a part of.
    When time and time again these leaders fail to live up to their own
    faith and standards, what does that say for it? You said it yourself,
    the church isn't run by god it's run by people. Great! So, Christ is
    not the head of the church! Wow, big surprise there. See my logic? I'm
    trying to point out the paradox one must embrace to sustain such a
    faith.

    PARADOX:
    If only Christ can be your example, how can you see him? Look to his
    people and you will see Christ. But his people fail. Ah, then look to
    Christ as your example.
    GOTO PARADOX

    If you can sustain your faith on your own, then why bother being
    involved with the church at all, since god isn't running it anyways?

    Be that as it may, the article posted shows Christians criticizing
    Christians. This is what the church does best. So many right people
    and so many conflicting views. I'm tired of sorting it out.

    Glad your faith is intact, more power to you.

I didn't say Christ wasn't the head of the church, I said he didn't run it.
As much as I'm sure it would be great if Christ did run all churches, I suppose
it would be difficult, so many car washes and raffles to organize, the soup
kitchens to manage, youth organizations, etc. it would be a lot to handle,
but, hey, he's God... I'm sure he could do it.

If your church is full of right wing fundamentalist hypocrites, find 
another church. How sad is it, if you really want to be closer to God, to
abandon that pursuit by letting the failings of some people erode your faith?
That's like hating Italy because some guy at Pizza Hut screwed up your
all-meat combo.

    At some point you have to look at the evidence. At least I did. I just
    couldn't make excuses for it anymore.

    As a pastor's son, I have pursued all my life. After watching hatred
    and betrayal and hypocrisy at all levels, I've concluded that this
    model of the church just doesn't work. At some point a supernatural god
    should kick in and fill the gap, but he doesn't.

    As for your insulting metaphor, I have not abandoned faith, I have
    abandoned lies and being a liar.

    Good note, gti\
    
    Reminds me of when Robert Sweet, during the hey-day of Stryper,
    took local band "mass" under their wings.  Now, mind you, Mass
    was nothing more than a local H_M band which virtually lived at
    Celebrations in kenmore sq.  Nothing cristian about em!  When 
    R. sweet started backing and producing the band, all of a sudden
    "Mass" was to be taken in a religious sense as opposed to its
    original "this is the state we come from".
    
    Mass, who were a one-hit wonder with "Do ya love me?", died a 
    quicker death after being converted to "religious rockers" by
    the Stryper dudes.
    
    I thought this little moment in time was applicable to the notes at
    hand.
    
    B

    
    Thats it , I confess, I had premarital sex in the Orthium at a Stryper
    concert... I was told to do it in a song.......
    
    The weird thing is that I was in the last row on the upper balcony
    and from the stage they hit me in the head with a bible......
    
    Hey man, nice shot!   Hey that songs like a song.     ;^)    Mark~~~

    
        >and from the stage they hit me in the head with a bible......
    
    	Geez, your girlfriend is lucky that she didn't get her nose broken.
    

    
    
    it wasn't my girlfriend, it was her friend.....

    
    	Oh, so your girlfriend was holding the blanket.
    
    	I see.
    

    I, too, got hit in the head with a bible at a strypre concert.  still
    got the damn thing ...somewhere

    
    stryper never made it to Scotland to convert us godless heathens! 8)
    
    
    
    either that or they were just shite and couldn't sell out a phone booth
    in Europe!
    
    
    						ian

    
    	RE: .228
    
    	It's that unattractive thing perched atop your neck ... try using
    	it once in awhile and you might remember it's there.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    You know with that flat-top of his he could balance a book up there
    very easily....a bible or even a MM CD!  :^)
    
    /jen