Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    I have the first question too.
    
    How do you find the cross over points of speakers that aren't 
    labeled ?  Ergo, how do I know where to set my cross over to optimize 
    the speakers ?
    
    Thanks,
jc

    
    
    
    Yo! jc, Here's my I/P for what it's worth.
    
    Setting your crossover depends entirely on the Venue 
    where you are playing. As long as you are not driving 
    your speakers to the point of destruction. In a long 
    venue you may want the bass to be pushed a bit harder, 
    whereas in a small venue you don't want to vibrate the 
    crowds ball$ off. It's a matter of experience and 
    personal taste.(a bit depends on how well loaded your 
    speakers are and the sort of sound pressures being 
    produced).
    
    This bit is for your Sound Man 8^).
    
    
    Taking on the job of Sound Man displays a certain sanity 
    (or lack of it). The best advice I can offer is as 
    follows:
    
    
    1) Go to every rehearsal and learn the songs!
    
    2) Listen to each individual and try to remember the 
       sound that he/she/it is producing.
    
    3) Set up the P.A. at the rehearsal hall and PRACTICE!
    
    4) Whatever kind of desk you are using will dictate 
       exactly what you can and can't do. Do not try to make 
       a 16-2 desk do what a 16-8-4-2 was designed for.
    
    5) At the sound check I would start with the vocals and 
       would make them loud. You can remember always turn 
       them down, whereas if they are not loud enough you 
       could end up with problems. When sound checking 
       vocals there are two things you will have to do.
       
       i) Turn of all the monitors. Unless you are going to 
       mix the monitors on a separate desk, the monitors are  
       secondary to the overall sound, and the band has to 
       realise this.
    
       ii) Remember that some Vocal effects will effect the 
       overall signal gain that you have to play with.
    
    6) I would then sound check the Guitars, again making 
       them loud (remember you can turn them down if 
       necessary), and panning them stage left and stage 
       right. Panning the guitars will help make each 
       guitarists sound more distinct. With modern 
       guitarists tendency to use multiple effects, the          
       sound can get quite thick.
       Bass Guitar should be loud enough to be punchy but 
       not overpowering.
    
    7) Next for me would be the drums. Making each one loud
       enough to hear but with the Bass drum and snare
       accentuated. Solid bass drum and snare is very 
       desirable. (listen to Motley Crue Girls album)
    
    8) This is where the fun begins. The mix itself. Most 
       bands rehearse with the sound that they like and it 
       is up to you to reproduce this sound as far as is 
       practicable.(do not make the overall sound suffer for
       one band member's ego!)
    
    9) When mixing it down, make sure that everything is 
       clear and loud enough, with the vocals just cutting 
       over everything else. 
    
    10) You should now have the general mix and it is time 
        to pull in the monitors, drum fill, etc. Make them 
        as loud as the band wants them to be but not to the
        point of Feedback (obvious eh!).
    
    Form this point the job should be easy. DO NOT RELAX!!!
    There will always be something just waiting to go wrong, 
    and if it can it will wait until the band are on stage.
    Obvious things are as follows:
    
       a) It may not be loud enough.
    
       b) It may be too loud.
    
       c) And worst of all, members of the band may start 
          messing with their sound after the sound check.
          (Guitarists are the biggest pain in the a$$ for
          this. It's something to do with their EGO'S)
    
    
    Don't let the band walk all over you. They will try it 
    but be firm and make sure that you are at least 
    relatively sober until after the show!8^).
    
    
    By the way jc. I have a tips book from 3RD GENERATION 
    MIXERS that mat help in setting the desk up. If you want 
    it let me know and I shall copy it to allin1 and send it 
    off to you.
    
    
       Sober for the mean time,
                
       
                       BONZO.
    
                                                                 
    

    It looks like jc is struck dumb by my last reply, so here it is
    in an easier format.
    
    Forget EGO's Just make them sound good.
    
    				BONZO.
    who_thinks_this_version_may_be_over_simplified.

    My observations... and I've been there a lot of times with this
    and hope I can add some value to this topic.
    
    first, get the drums mixed, Each drum, get a good sound on all of
    them, then work em all in together.  Paying close attention
    to the Kick and the Snare.
    
    Then mix the bass.
    
    Get a good solid/smooth bottom end, (bass&Drums) then everything else 
    should just fit over that.
    
    As far as corssovers and all that goes, it depends more on the
    design of your cabinets.  Cabinets are tuned to Frequncy responses,
    then it's how much the speakers will take (cleanly) on the 
    volume end, and this where getting good speakers and drivers is a 
    benifit for a good clean sounding system.

    As far as general pointers go, make sure those vocals are the single
    most defineable point in the mix.  Guitars, keys, bass and drums
    shouldn't be over the vocals,,, EVER.
    
    Another pointer is to get the musicians depending on the soundman to
    get them "out" through the mains. Stage volume wars *destroy* any
    effort even the best sound man can give to running a fine mix.  The
    amplifiers on stage should just be there for the musicians on stage,
    and not get out into the mix. 
    
    A good way to help this along is to set the amps up  so that
    their sound is firing cross stage as opposed to being set up along
    the back wall where the speakers are firing right out into the house.

    This will only entangle with the mix, and confuse your sound man.
    It will aslo attribute to him losing control over the sound as he
    will not be easily able to identify whats going on cuz he's just
    got too much comming from the stage into the house...

    Best pointer I can reiterate though is to make sure to have the
    guys on stage get a sound *they* want on stage.  The sound man
    will take care of the rest.  If he's a good sound man, than let
    him do his job, and don't worry weather or not *your* getting
    through.  Trust him, especially if your paying him..

    

    Depending on what he wanted to do with the band/board, 8 channels 
    may not be enough...  I suggest going for a reasonably priced used
    16 channel mixer...  If the price is a little prohibitive, perhaps
    you can use the 8 channel mixer for a while, and when your PA grows,
    you can premix the drums with the 8 channel.
    
    I'm not familiar with Crest's products though...  Just my $.02
    
    jc

    Sounds like somebody trying to unload their old junk. Three sends
    may mean 2 stereo outs and one monitor out. He would probably end
    up wasting one of the eight channels just to have an effects in
    for echo or reverb. Another probability is that the mixer has old
    technology op-amps on each strip which will generate more noise
    than the more recent Carvin. 
    Cooper is right though; might be a better idea for the drummer to
    buy the eight channel and sub-mix himself. But,if the band is only at
    the first rehearsal stage, drums are usually plenty loud for a basement
    or private studio. Quality of the 8 channel probably wouldn't be
    acceptable live.
    
    R.F.

    I use a Tangent 16 channel mixer every week.  It is nice but is missing
    some features that I like (i.e., built-in reverb, lamp, and the ability
    to talk in the monitor system so I can communicate with the
    performers).
    
    I think he would be better off checking out Carvin and possibly Peavey
    (who also make some nice mixers).
    
    Mike

    Interesting replies in here!  I was "baptized by fire" when it came to
    learning sound.  Our church needed someone to do it and I volunteered.
    
    The only real challenge I have now is doing the special presentations
    during the holidays.  Our choir is big, so I have the cantata to worry
    about.  Plus the drama parts and lights (spotlights and ceiling
    lights).
    
    Mike

    >The only real challenge I have now is doing the special presentations
    >during the holidays.  Our choir is big, 
    
    Cool!  Are you guys doing any bitchin black spirituals?
    
    Buck, whos wicked into gospel tunes!!!

    Re: -1
    
    Not this year, but we have.  We usually purchase the tracks and books
    for the cantatas and perform them.  
    
    The best church I ever attended was a black gospel church on Ft. 
    Devens.  That place was jumpin'!  I went there from the summer of '79 
    to the fall of '80.  Then I moved to Phoenix.  Their potluck dinners
    were great too!  Talk about great soul food!
    
    Some of the big churches (i.e., 5000+ people, 100+ voice choirs) around 
    here use live orchestras for the cantatas.  I'd love to do sound for 
    some of those!
    
    Mike

    -1
    
    actually, the bigger the ensemble, the less micing you need.
    
    Basically, two mics in an X-Y pattern, or an M-S pattern does
    nicely!  With the option of an overhead in omni mode for ambience!
    
    B.

    Buck, when they built our new sanctuary, I told them to put reels 
    above the ceiling so we could drop mics from overhead.  They said they
    didn't want to limit the position of the choir.
    
    Re: your p_n
    
    We've never done this and I'm not real familiar with it (other than
    that song).  Is this a Christmas piece or Easter piece?
    
    Mike

    RE: my p_n...
    
    I thought I sent ya mail on it?  But my cluster has been so wigged out
    of late, my mail probbaly went off into VAXpurgatory!
    
    It's traditionally a Christmas piece...a line taken from the Hallelujah
    Chorus, which is in the 2nd movement, towards the end of the Messiah
    by George Frederick Handel!  The piece totally roolz!!

    >It's just that I've gone from Soprano to Alto to Tenor through the
    >years. :^)
     
    No way, that's a riot!!!
    
    I started my singing career in the 4th grade...did District and all
    that stuff...I can say that I've sung major pieces in ALL of the 4
    vocal ranges!!  ;^)
    
    Buck, once a soprano, now a true baratone!  ;^)   

    Re: tenor
    
    is that like tenor 12 miles from everyone else? ;-)

    I started my singing career in church choir when I was probably four or
    five.  I've gone from singing something like soprano to sometime
    something like frog...
    
    gh

    I started my singing career in the bathroom ... and that's about where
    it should be !   8^)
    
    Scary

    ...then along comes puberty and it ruins everything ;-)

    Ya had to be there ... wish I hadn't been ....
    
    Scary (who sings a couple tunes now ...)