Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    
    	I think that bands like Zep and Floyd were incredible, and would
    have been incredible no matter what decade they existed in. (Yeah,
    I know that Floyd still exists.) I don't think that it's a matter
    of what the year was or anything. Zep's classic style is still
    embraced (or at least influences) by many of today's bands, they're
    timeless. 
    	Personally, I hate the music of the sixties and seventies, with
    the exception of the good hard rockers of the time, and a couple
    other bands, like the Doors, and Pink Floyd.
    	It seems like every rock station on the radio dedicates all
    of sunday to playing sixties music. Invariably I'm stuck listening
    to the Beatles, and psychedelic crap. I'd rather listen to 
    Casey's top 40 than 70 percent of that stuff. Now if they played
    a lot of Zep and Sabbath...
    
    	/Motorbreath...sixties were better if that was your type of
    music, if it's heavy metal you desire stick to the 80's FOR THE
    MOST PART.

    A lot of that sixties crap was due to the fact that there were a
    lot more young people who were socially conscious, and being young
    people they question everything. I question lotsa stuff, my daughter
    questions lotsa stuff, and most of you who are aware of whats going
    on probably question lotsa stuff. IMO lotsa sixties "classics" were
    driven out of the "need" to express attitudes, feelings and
    personality. Today's eighties music really doens't have the same
    awareness that the hippies of the sixties had. Seems that the attitude
    is sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll, disco sucks and so does soul.
    Personally I'd rather listen to Iron Maiden or Van Halen than old
    Sabbath, Doors, or even old AC/DC. Zep is my all time favorite 'tho.
    
    
    
    the devil dog who is wondering why he is here on a holiday.

    
    	There were alot of descent bands that came out of the 60's
    & 70's.  Look at ELP, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young (although Neil's
    off on his own and the other three do reunions), Cream, Ten Years
    After, and-so-forth-and-so-on...  Music was a way to rebel back
    in those years.  A way for people to relate to one another.  Back
    then was the time of being free in thought and action.  Look at
    Woodstock !  If anything like that happened now, the government
    would call a state of emergency, and people would be arrested. 
    If I remember the numbers, there were two fights, and nine births
    that 72 hour weekend, where there were somewhere near 250,000
    people,(if not more) there.(Don't quote the figures, since I saw
    a video taped recording of the whole event three years ago, and
    have forgotten alot of the numbers)  To the people in that timeframe,
    the music said just about everything that they wanted to say in
    words.  Listen to CS&N sometime.  They're _VERY_ political in their
    music.  
    
    	The frame of mind was alot different towards music then, as 
    it is now, and when we're forty and our kids are listening to the
    future music, will they be thinking the same thing about the 80/90's?
    
    METALord (was five in `68)

    RE: .1
    
    In my humble opinion, it is very likely (very, very, very likely)
    that if it hadn't been for The Beatles and all that other "psychedelic
    crap", there might never have been Heavy Metal.  Also consider that
    many things we take for granted (e.g. long hair, dressing the way
    you want, listening to loud music) were not acceptable in the 60's
    and it took years of rebellious music, art, and literature to get to
    where we are today.
    
    I agree that it can be a drag to hear so much of the so-called "classic
    hits" format.  I sure as hell get sick of it.
    
    joe.

    As far as mediocrity goes, the reason the 80s may seem mediocre
    as compared to the 60s and 70s is the fact that there are many
    different bands playing many different types of metal. With so many
    different types, there is bound to be stuff you don't like. Another
    piont to consider is that HM gets more airplay than it useta. This
    leads us to believe our favorites are selling out, when all they
    are doing is getting more popoular. This goes to a point I made
    some time ago about HM being our music and now too many people like
    it, which takes off some of the rebellion factor. It's like having
    a cool place in the hills to party (in my case it was Enchanted
    Forest), then other people hear about it, pretty soon lotsa people
    go there and it's not your spot anymore, its everybody's spot. You
    either enjoy the place with everybody or you find a new spot. I
    don't think HM is mediocre in the 80's, people are just looking
    for  a new "spot".
    
    
    the devil dog who's wondering if he made sense      
    

    BTW, here are some stat's on HM as related to the top 50 albums
    this week:
    
    	# 3 Guns N' Roses 	32 weeks on the top 50
    	# 4 Def Leppard		52 weeks...
    	# 7 Van Halen		10 weeks
    	#11 Cinderella		 4 weeks
    	#17 Poison		12 weeks
    	#37 Scorpions		14 weeks
    	#48 Jimmy Page		 6 weeks
    
    	That's 14% of the total.  Pretty decent, huh?  Anybody know
    if 14% is any kind of a record for HM?
    
    	joe.

See note 175.*

(for my response in particular, see note 175.3)

cat
who_says_that_this_notesfile_is_getting_more_repetitive_than_HM_ever_will_be

    
    
    	I KNEW this was discussed somewhere else!  I just couldn't
    	remember where.
    
    
    	Thanks, Cat!
    
    	Tig~~

    The reason I wrote this note was that I don't think the great heavy
    metal bands of today are as talented as the great heavy metal bands
    of the  sixties and seventies.I am not trying to live in the past
    as may be suggested and I have listened to a great deal of contem-
    porary HM,but if you took the 1973 Led Zeppelin(lets agree that
    this is was a great 70's HM band) and *******(you name your own)
    as today's great heavy metal band,ask yourself 1.Who came up with a
    more original sound,2.Who developed their influences into a sound
    that was Band X's and  not Band X's influence,and 3.Did that bands
    sound set a trend to develop and influence future music to major
    proportions. The sad answer is that our old dead bands did more
    for music than the ones we have now do.The music today relies more
    heavily on fads and image than old music did,fads and image were
    fun to have in the old days,now they are a must.Radio stations
    know this and alot of HM fans do too,that is why you here as much
    60's and 70's antiques as you do 80's music,If all radio stations played
    was 80's music there would be alot of idle radio's.What major influence
    on the art of  music has ANY band,HM or non-HM had in the 80's?
    

    
    	RE: 14
    
    Please.
    First of all, how many "great" heavy metal bands are there from
    the 60's BESIDES ZEP?
    Secondly, yes, Zep was/is a major influence. A lot of their music
    is VERY blues - oriented. I wouldn't call that a breakthrough
    or trendsetting sound.
    That's ONE band, one example. What other REAL HM bands in the sixties
    were so outstanding and unique that no great 80's HM band compares?
    	I don't hear much in the way of 60s or 70s HEAVY METAL on the
    radio, nor do I consider that period a HM renaissance era or 
    anything. I do hear a lot of music from that period on sundays though,
    but not HM.
    	What advantage in "talent" did bands from that time have over
    today's bands?
    	In my opinion, the 70s were a stagnant time for music. The
    diversity of the sixties gave way to the BORING 70s... when bands
    like Dr. Hook made it big. James Taylor. Boston was probably the
    biggest band of the 70s, and I don't think that's saying much. 
    Kansas, Fleetwood Mac, etc. I'm not flaming these bands, I just
    think that they weren't doing anything of any importance.
    The record industry also suffered greatly during this stale period.
    	The late seventies/early eighties finally came alive with
    some new music, and great heavy metal bands to spring us from the
    boring, disco seventies.
    
    ...well, enough dribbling
    
    /Motorbreath
    
    

    As an addendum to my last note...
    
    yeah, I know Zep was kicking a** in the seventies, along with
    a couple other bands. They were the exception NOT the rule.
    
    /Motorbreath

    
    Without the music of the 60's and 70's there would be no HM conference
    to read today. Just as the 60's influenced the 70's, the 70's
    influenced the 80's. HM is nothing but a new term for a sound
    that has been developing over a period of many years. No one band
    woke up one day and decided to call themselves HM, it took alot
    of time to progress to todays definition of HM. I believe there
    is a note on influences of HM where alot of this has been talked
    about.

    
    Amen.
    
    I agree with that totally as opposed to "this is better than that."
    
    This was touched before in another note, which was started on a
    different topic. I think this is a valid discussion.
    
    /Motaahhhbreath... who CAN'T WAIT to pick up Metallica's new tape!

re: .16

(Motorbreath - I agree with your point. This is just nitpickin' on my part.)
    
    
>    That's ONE band, one example. What other REAL HM bands in the sixties
>    were so outstanding and unique that no great 80's HM band compares?

Cream. (Ooops, my Clapton fanaticism is showing again. Sorry!)

>    	What advantage in "talent" did bands from that time have over
>    today's bands?

No advantage in talent, but they did a have a large advantage business-
wise. The bands of the sixties could afford to be more experimental and
try more things than the bands of the eighties, who have to achieve
large scale success before they are allowed to experiment with their music.

 >   diversity of the sixties gave way to the BORING 70s... when bands
 >   like Dr. Hook made it big. 

Hey, do you mean you don't like "Cover of the Rolling Stone"? That's a
great song!!!
 
cat

    
    
    As far as the 70's hard rock/metal there isn't that much to be found
     forinstance Led Zep 3 albums and a few single cuts some Cream
    some Alice Cooper some T.Rex,Hendrix,Who,Trower,Sweet and A few
     others who I can't think of.There wasn't the variety that there
    is today especially when you look at some of there greatest hits
     albums not to knock Dr.Hook but anyone who would put the song
    ""you make my pants want to get up and dance""as a greatest hit
    can't have made that many good songs,but then again this is just
    one mans opinion.
    
    				M
    			         B
    

    RE:16
    
    > First of all, how many "great" heavy metal bands are there from
    > the 60's BESIDES ZEP?
    
    To many more than there are today.If Led Zep and the other "greats"
    were not around there would be nothing for Metalical(and several
    others) to palagerize there music from. 

    re: .22
    
    <Flame on>
                                             
    You have obviously NEVER listened to any of Metallicas music, otherwise
    you would never make an ignorant statement like that!  I find their
    sound quite unique and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like Zep, the Stones, Cream
    or anything else I've heard from this 60s.  It is not blues based, as
    was most of the music of the 60s (and almost ALL the music of Zep). Zep
    literally STOLE songs from many great bluesmen, words, music, and all,
    without giving any credit, even!!!  They even copped songs from the
    Yardbirds! So who was doing the plagiarizing? 
                                        
    Now I do agree that the 60s was a time when popular music was evolving
    and without that process, there would be no Metallica (or others)
    today.  I CANNOT accept the statement that they plagiarize their sound
    and material.  This is BLATANTLY false!!! 
    
    <Flame off>
                                             
    I'm sorry that you feel we attacked you or the 60s, and I'm also sorry
    you feel you have to attack us and the 80s.  I have nothing against the
    60s, or Led Zeppelin, much of my favorite music was done during that
    time period.  But it's just not true that the people of that time
    period were any more talented at either songwriting or performing. On
    the contrary, I would have to say that a performer must be much more
    competent in technical ability to make it in the record business today. 
    
    I completely agree with Cat in that they had more freedom to experiment
    with their music back then, it wasn't such a big money making business
    as it is today.  I consider that a damn shame too. 
    
    gh 
                                                      

    re: 22
    
    HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
    
    I will try to restrain myself...
    You definitely have not listened to ANY Metallica material, or you
    would NOT have made that statement. As was said before, and as I
    said, Led Zep was a blues based band. Led Zep was good, like I said,
    but I still haven't heard you naming off "the big list" of 
    60's heavy metal hero bands, and that's because there weren't many.
    
    You made a statement earlier about not living in the past, but in
    my opinion you obviously are.
    
    /Motorbreath...a fanatic of many bands... with an open mind (I like
    to think)

    RE:23
    
    flame on
    
    I have heard alot of Metalica, and if you don't or can't see where
    they got there influence from then clean out of your ears.The british
    blues movement began in the early 1960's and EVERYONE that was ANYONE
    in HM(or anything else)was influenced by it.Rock and Roll(which
    HM is an off-shoot)is a DIRECT development of the blues sound.And
    further more If you ever read "When the Levee Breaks"or the other
    sheet music LED ZEP CREDITS THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE ORIGINAL SHEET
    MUSIC ON BOTH THE ALBUM AND IN THE SHEET MUSIC!!!SO DON'T TELL ME
    THEY ARE STEALING ANYTHING!!!Jimmy Page wrote"I'm Confused",a Yardbirds
    song and turned it into "Dazed and Confused" when he started Led
    Zep.Finally listen to "Gallows Pole",by Leadbelly,the blues artist
    in the 30's who wrote it - see the difference?See the album credits?
    the sheet music?,No it doesn't say Page-Plant wrote it.Further did
    you EVER read the lyrics to a HM song???? Compare them to a ANY
    blues song,see any similarities in content,theme,etc???And if,and
    I take this back somewhat about Metalica,you don't think that this
    has been the era of copy-cat bands(Great White,Kingdom Come and
    friends)then you obviously never listened to 60's and 70's music.
     
    flame off
    
    I'm sorry too.I feel we have all been short-changed and that money
    is into something that deterimes what is made availible to us,the
    public.Music is something that really priceless when done well but
    I feel the greedy record companies are shoveling us garbage in hopes
    of lowering our tastes in order to have a bigger market share.I
    agree with cat and losing that freedom has cost us all.I'll
    keep waiting and hoping.
   

    
    No Pete, all those "good" 80s bands have done nothing but
    stolen their lyrics, and music from Led Zeppelin.
    
    Actually, no...wait... All rock bands conceived since 1950 have
    stolen everything from the American blues masters of the 20s and
    30s. 
    
    yeah, that's it.
    
    I agree with you about the stuff from the 60s.
    
    Led Zeppelin were THE BIGGEST plagiarists by stealing the 
    blues sound, and lyrics!!! 
                
    
    /Motorbreath... who can correctly spell METALLICA!!!

    
    Now does that mean anyone who plays a blues type of music and has
    a singer with a high voice was influenced by Zepplin and were do
    you get the comparisson(not mad or defensive just curios(sp?) 
    in Great White sounding like Zep. the only thing iv'e heard that
    could be considerd anything like Zep is Rock Me.
    
    					M
    					 B
    

    
     Having read thru this little debate, I was just wondering how
    old you are Mike Delphia. I am 25 not old enough to remember the
    60's and only really got into music starting in the mid-70's. So
    my view is definitly that the 80's have been the balls while everything
    before that I don't really care for.
    
    /Bill......It could be an age thing.
    

    
    ...to have a meaningful discussion with anyone that only wants
    to hear what they believe.
    
    in note .0 you said you wondered if the best had come and gone,
    when you actually already had your mind made up.
    
    
    wait a sec... why am I bothering?
    
    /Motorbreath...yet another rathole

re: could be an age thing....

Nawwwww....cause I'm 25 (ooops, 26 as of a couple days ago!),and grew up 
in the mid-70s also. But I still love music from the Sixties (Cream,
Hendrix, Beatles, Stones, etc. etc.), the Fifties (Buddy Holly and Carl
Perkins are two of my favorites!), and even the Forties (love some 
big band stuff - Glenn Miller, Count Basie, old Sinatra, Dorsey Bros., 
etc.). 

The point (besides that I have weird taste?) is that age has little to
do with it - it's just personal taste as to what you like.

re: Metallica vs. the blues

Well, of course Metallica isn't a direct decendant of Robert Johnson.
But if you looked at a family tree of musical influences, you could start
at Metallica and trace it back to both the old blues masters and 
classicl music, by way of bands such as Deep Purple adn LZ and Hendrix
and mnay more in between. 

Remember - nobody operates in a vaccuum - everything started somewhere!

cat

    Both sides are making good points, but saying that Metallica was
    influenced by Zep is like saying that apples were influenced by
    oranges cuz they're both fruit. I went out to the "Rock Van" during lunch
    and listened to "Fade to Black". I saw a similarity to "Stairway
    to Heaven", they're both slow songs right? C'mon guys, I love Metallica
    and I love Zep, go back and see the way this conversation is rat-holed
    including this reply.
    
    the devil dog who can't wait until he's been in the HM conference
    for 30 years and is arguing with some youngsters about same future
    band getting their influence from Iron Maiden.

                
                . . . and Pete . . .
                
                YES is garbage?!?!?!?!?!?!?
                
                Starship  Trooper,    Roundabout,  Long  Distance
                Runaround . . . garbage?!?!?
                
                I ache all over 
                
                :-)
                
                Hey, you're entitled.
                
                Just had to stick up for them.
                
                

                        
                       
    Why is it *most* successful 80's band are being categorised as
    either Zepp influenced or Zepp rippoffs ?? (I can hear crys of "well
    they were").       
                       
    what a load of ....
                        
    This may shock some of you, but Led Zeppelin is, or were, *not* the 
    greatest band in the world.  Why the **** should everyone WANT to
    go around copying Zepp ?? Are they that good?? I think not.  Alright,
    you do get the blatant ripp offs (Kingdom Come), but it seems people
    are using the worn out "They are ripping off Zepp" line as a weapon,
    when it really isn't true.                                
                                                              
    As for the "similarities/influences" btwn Zepp/Mettallica - I nearly
    wet myself laughing.                                      
                                                              
    -Tony

    
    	If you want my honest opinion to both sides of this debate....
    I won't knock anyone who can make my salary (which ain't much anyways)
    at least 20 times over.  I may be a little jealous though.......
    :^)
    
    	I believe I saw `Kingdom Comes'' guitarist and lead singer on
    WPIX(?) outta' NYC back a few month's ago. (Dad `n Mum gotta' 
    Satellite Dish)  The lead singer was saying that although they have
    a similar Zep sound, they don't want to be thought of as a `copy'
    of Zep.  (Which they may sound like they're doing just the opposite)
    He was saying that the `Zep sound' was what helped get them started.  
    
    	Well....it `helped' get them started, so now the question is...
    `who promotes a band with the `Zep sound', knowing that there are
    more `Zep sounding' groups out there, and they aren't unique and
    don't have a new sound ?'  Producers are probably (and don't take
    this to the bank) playing on the fact that Zep is still popular
    now, as they were when they were together.(Can't blame John for
    that though)  So....bring another band into play that may follow
    in `Zeps' shoes, and `we'll make the people and our wallets a
    little happier.'
    
    So, can we blame the band or the record producer?

    METALord"

    re: .14
    
    The HM bands today are very talented, as were the HM bands of
    yesteryear like Cream, Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc.  The main difference
    to me is this, when Zeppelin first hit the airwaves, Jimmy Page
    brought something new and relatively unheard of, as did Hendrix.
    It had the same effect as showing a microwave oven to the caveman,
    very impressive .... but NOW were in the age of laser this, midi
    that, and digital everything.  Kids in middle school are in bands
    and covering Racer X, while the old timers are still listening
    to "Freedom Rock".  Personally I LOVE the new music even though
    a lot of it sounds like something I heard years ago, only faster,
    more intricate, more polished, or raunchier.  Now I still love *some*
    of the classics (may "Stairway To Heaven" rest in peace ...) but
    as the music grows and evolves, so must the listener.
    
    
    				Mr Scary II

    It seems to me that the music of the 80's ends up suffering from the
    "bottom_line_blues". The other morning I heard Charles on 'BCN making 
    a joke about how the sales department would be upset cuz of the metal 
    tune he was getting ready to play.  I couldn't believe it!!  
   
    I wonder how many talented musicians/bands we loose because of this
    money over talent trend?  Or how many new and innovative sounds we
    never get to hear because they don't fit the "proper mold of
    heavy_metal", as defined by bands such as Zepplin.  
    
    Maybe we could borrow that squad you've got going to MTV and send
    them to a couple of record companies and radio stations. Just to
    let them know that it really would be alright to put more Iron Maiden,
    Metallica, etc on the radio......that we'd really like to hear from
    some new bands that aren't into the money side of things necessarily
    but are playing from the burning passions within themselves that
    is heavy_metal!!!!!  These bands deserve exposure, too!!!!!!!!!
    ITS NOT MEDIOCRITY, ITS MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Opps.....sorry....I guess I'm just a little frustrated with the
    radio lately....and it is a little late......I think I'll trot off
    to bed now......
    
    'nite,
    Vicki
    
    

    Let me say this about ZEP. I love them, but the fact is that they
    were a blatant rip-off of the basic blues riffs of the Early Sixties.
    And those blues were taken from early classical.  
    
    Is this to say that Kingdom Come is a ripoff of classical music.
    I don't think so, but what comes around goes around....
    
    I did however read in Rolling Stone that the guy who heads up Kingdom
    Come did admit to copying Led Zep.  He said "..were only in it 
    for the money"

    > Blues taken from early classical....

Well, I'm not the classical buff. But if I remember my musical history
correctly, classical music derived in Europe from religious songs, or
something like that (weren't there some monks writing that stuff first?).
The blues came out of songs by the black tribes in Africa. I believe
they both developed very independently of each other.

cat

    ok, so i'm a little misinformed, but to say Zep was totally origional
    is absurd, just like it's absurd to say that Kingdom Clone(oops
    Come) is origional.