Conference napalm::guitar

For people with perfect pitch, different keys have very different "colors"
even though equal temperment makes the mathematical relationships the same.
I'm working on getting it, and though the process isn't complete, I am
definitely beginning to notice this phenomenon.

I think habit and ease have more to do which keys songs get played in than
anything else, though.  There don't seem to be too many songs that just
*have* to be played in C#.

Paul

    
    Seems like alot of jazz standards get played in 
    B-flat, E-flat or F since those are easier keys
    for trumpet and sax. 
    
    These keys don't allow for as many open string
    licks on the guitar.  I think country sounds good
    in G because that key does permit certain open string 
    licks and chords.  An open string definately has a 
    different tone than a fingered note, probably as you
    say open strings are richer in harmonics, and sound 
    fuller, even without chorus!
    
    Dave
     
    
    

    Dave's rules:
    
    1. Slow Blues sound best in C; they also sound OK in G
    
    2. Swing Blues are always played in Bb
    
    3. When I sing the key never goes higher than G or ugly noise
       will result

    
    Nothing sounds quite as great as a Db chord on a church organ.
    
    The star spangled banner has to be played in Bb.
    

    For certain stringed instruments (violin, viola, cello, etc.),
    the fingerings (and the string used to produce a given pitch,
    resulting from the fingering used) differ from sharp to flat
    keys. This results in the instrument having a very different
    character, depending on the key that the piece is written in.

    A case in point was Steve Levine, who was the producer for
    Culture Club. He used to do string parts by playing the parts
    on his Fairlight CMI, and using the CMI to transcribe the
    score which he would then give to a string section. On one
    song he did this, the strings sounded awful, but he couldn't
    quite put his finger on it. The concert meister of the
    string section suggested he rewrite the string part in the
    corresponding key (I can't remember whether his original
    part was in a sharp or flat key... sorry... but the advice
    was to change from, for example, C# to Db)

    Anyway, this solved Mr. Levine's problem, who told me this
    story as anecdotal proof that the Fairlight was the premium
    software tool for studio use (this was before MIDI sequencers
    were a reality).

    -b

    As a person who's been mucking about with songwriting for a while, I'd
    have to say that in addition to the other things mentioned in replies
    1-5, some songs just sound wrong (or, conversely, right) in certain
    keys. I've written some stuff in G, and found out later I liked the
    overall timbre of the song when played (by accident) in A. This is a
    lot like the tempo of a song; the right tempo works, the wrong one
    keeps the song off the charts...
    
    Bill

    As far as country using the key of G, banjos are usually tuned to an
    open G chord, andn mandolind and fiddles are easiest to play in G, 
    as G, C and D chords are all two finger jobs. 
    
    mandatory music joke: one session years ago, I remember one of the guys 
    was trying to figure out how to do an A-flat minor chord, he asked
    "how do you make Abm" and before anyone could show him, some wag
    replied:
    
    "throw a piano down a mine shaft..."
    
    
    

    
    > fiddles are easiest to play in G, as G, C and D chords are all two
    > finger jobs.
    
    Actually, "fiddle tunes" tend to be in A or D, convenient for open
    string drones and first-position playing in general.. 
    
    Tom

    RE. 5
    
    Can someone oexplain the difference between Db and c#? I always thought
    they were the same note, just applied in the opposite direction.
    
    -kev (just curious)

    
    They are the same note to a guitar, keyboard etc. They even are,
    somewhat, to players of (fretless) stringed instruments, but
    not entirely. As I explained in .5, the string player's approach
    to a flat key (in terms of intonation) is different from their
    approach to a sharp key. I'm just passing on what I have heard
    from several string players (not just the producer mentioned in
    .5)
    
    -b

re: .9

>    Can someone oexplain the difference between Db and c#? I always thought
>    they were the same note, just applied in the opposite direction.
    
The well-tempered scale with all half-step intervals the same that we 
consider normal today wasn't always the norm.  I did a paper on its evolution
back in college in the 1970s, but unfortunately I don't remember that many
of the details anymore, save that it was still pretty new in Bach's time.

A mathematically-perfect fifth plus a mathematically-perfect fourth don't
add up to a mathematically-perfect octave.  Same sorts of problems with
other intervals.  It made it really tricky to try to make a keyboard that
could play in any key.  The well-tempered scale was developed as a compromise,
and was roundly castigated by many when it was new 'cause it sounded strange.
Nowadays we're all used to it, so we don't notice the errors.

Nonetheless, as Brian states, string and horn players that aren't constrained
by frets or keyboards often tend to play closer to the mathematically-correct
intervals.  The same is often true with acappella vocals as well.  Pay 
close attention to the intervals sung by a barbershop quartet sometime, it
can be pretty interesting.

-Hal

    I don't think I've ever seen one, but I'm 99% certain that there
    used to be keyboards made with separate flat and sharp keys (two
    black keys next to each other) for the evil-tempered (or was it
    equal tempered) scale.

    This is pretty short on detail, but check any of the recordings of
    Terry Riley (to whom Baba O'Riley is partially dedicated).  He is
    (was?) a modernist composer who experimented a lot with keyboards
    modified to play true intervals.  "In C" and "Sri Camel" are two
    of his recordings I'm familiar with, but there are others.  Very
    ear-bending stuff.
    
    Anyone with more/better info about Mr Riley please chime in.
    
    /rick
    

Once I played in a medieval music group, and the guy who was coaching the
group brought in a DX7-II so he could play some passages in mean-tone
tuning and equal temperment; he wanted us to hear exactly what we were
aiming for.

I expected to experience a preference for one or the other and was curious
to see which it would be.  But to my surprise, when he switched back and
forth I found that having them side by side made them both sound horrible
to me.  But then, it didn't take long to accept either by itself.

Paul

    
    RE: C# and D-flat.  Are these two _keys_ played differently, 
    or are the _notes_ C# and D-flat played differently 
    depending on what the key is?  For example C# in the
    key of D is sharper than D-flat in the key of G-flat?
    
    Also it wouldn't surprise me if string players are simply
    better at sight reading sharp keys than flat keys. 
    
    Dave
    
    

    > For example C# in the
    > key of D is sharper than D-flat in the key of G-flat?
    
    Sometimes.. But just so you don't think string players are constantly 
    worrying about this: I personally don't think about it at all.  8^)   
    But I have been in an orchestra where the conductor has said "that
    C# is the leading tone, so make it REALLY sharp."
    
    Tom

    What I remember on tempered vs non-tempered systems...
    
    As far as the effects of equal temperment, the keys of C# and
    Db would be identical.  In non-tempered instruments C# and Db
    could be different, depending on context.  For that matter,
    C# and C# could be different, depending on context (provided
    A=440).
    
    Musically pleasing intervals are the result of simple relationships
    between the frequencies of the notes.  If two strings are vibrating
    at pitches an octave apart, the higher string is vibrating at
    twice the number of vibrations per second as the lower string.
    In a 5th, the higher string vibrates three times for every two
    vibrations of the lower string.  In a 4th, the higher note beats
    4 times for every 3 beats of the lower.  For a major 3rd, 5 times
    for every 4 vibrations of the lower.
    
    Each 1/2 step in the tempered system, the frequency increases by
    the 12th root of 2.  This results in compromizes in the above
    intervals: the third and fourth are slightly sharp, and the the
    fifth is slightly flat.  
    
    However, non-tempered systems have their own peculiarities.  Moving
    by consectutive fifths will eventually get you to the third note
    of your major scale (e.g., A-E-B-F#-C#).  In a tempered system, moving
    in consecutive 3:2 fifths will get you to a third that is different
    than the third.  For example:
    
    	A:   440	A:   440
    	E:   660	
    			A:   880
    	B:   990	
    	F#: 1485
    			A:  1760
    	C#: 2227.5	C#: 2200 (1760 * 5 / 4)
    
    In practice, however, the above doesn't happen -- all tempered
    fifths aren't equal.  Some of the above fifths need to be flattened
    slightly (I don't recall which...)
    
    FWIW, the above situation is why its a bad idea to tune your tempered 
    guitar by matching 7th fret harmonics to the 5th fret harmonics on 
    the next lower string (unless you recognize the right number of
    "beats" in a tempered 5th).
    
    Jim

    A great article about tuning technique was reprinted in the
    April E.U. Wurlitzer catalog/mailer. Very informative...Especially
    since I was one of those harmonic tuning type guys and always wondered
    why some chords would sould great, and others would be very atonal.
    I always thought it was intonation trouble on the guitar.

re: .18

Yeah, that was a great article.  I haven't had a chance to really test this
out yet, but my impression is that tuning the way that article suggests
gives slightly different results from using a tuner.  And I think I prefer
the former over the latter.

Paul

    I read it too and gave it a try.  I think this would be a very
    difficult technique to use in a noisy club.... requires too much
    extremely careful listening.

re: .20

>    I read it too and gave it a try.  I think this would be a very
>    difficult technique to use in a noisy club.... requires too much
>    extremely careful listening.

Which brings up the most important advantage of electronic tuners.  I
can tune by ear just fine at home where it's quiet, but tuning in a noisy
bar without a machine sucks.  I remember the days before affordable
electronic tuners, and it wasn't pretty.

-Hal

The article in EUW's catalog gave me the impression that it tuned to
the same pitches a piano tuner does, as it states regarding some notes
that seem out of whack: "get used to it, like a piano player does".

I used to tune with 5th and 7th fret harmonics, and convinced myself
that what I heard was "right".  I then changed to tune using the
shareware Macintosh program "Piano Tuner" and my Powerbook, and now the
instrument sounds "nice".

I have to check again, but I think I tried to verify using EUW's catalog
algorithm and found the Macintosh tuned instrument checked out.

From this, I conclude that guitar tuners will do the right thing.

    re tuning
    
    	One way I was shown by a guitar repairer was:
    
    	Tune the A string to a reference (piano, tuner etc)
    
    	Play the A (fifth fret on  E string ) and tune to the open
    	A on the fifth string.
    
    	Then tune the remaining strings to the open A, by fretting the
    	A note on each string (so it will be either unison or and ocatave
    	higher) seems to work pretty well.
    
    P.K.