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Conference napalm::guitar

Title:	GUITARnotes - Where Every Note has Emotion
Notice:	Discussion of the finer stringed instruments
Moderator:	KDX200::COOPER

Created:	Thu Aug 14 1986
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	3280
Total number of notes:	61432

2655.0. "Advise Wanted: New Rack Setup" by DABEAN::POWELL (From the disk of Dan's K-Mart VAX) Thu Jan 07 1993 17:18

This is another one of those "I have $$$ what should I buy" questions.
I have $800 to spend on a new guitar rack setup. My requirements are 
direct to board recording only, so please, no suggestions about power amps
or speakers. 

My current setup includes a SRD Sustainer, Digitech GSP21 Pro, Alesis 
Quadraverb, and a Korg A3. Of this lot, I like the A3 best when it comes to 
compressed distorted sounds, and the GSP for clean processed sounds 
(especially with the quadraverb in the loop). Unlike the many tonal purists 
floating around, I *like* the overprocessed sound, but I also like the wall 
of Marshalls sound, too. The trouble with my current setup is that I cannot 
get any sound that approximates a Marshall or Boogie or *insert your favorite
tube amp* sound. 

What I'm looking for is a dedicated preamp that has versatile distortion,
realistic speaker emulation, and wide tonal variation. I would also like to 
add a new multieffects unit that has realtime control over parameters and 
better control of effect chain configuration. The Quadraverb has realtime 
control but is not very versatile with effect configuration, while the A3 
has great effect configuration but no realtime controls. What a dilemma! 
Above all, the new setup must be quiet.

I am aware of the various preamps out there but have not had much success
locating many of them to put them to the test. I tried, but did not care 
for the MP1, mainly because it was noisy and needed lots of EQ directly 
into the board. I also tried the Marshall preamps 9000, 9004 and JMP-1 but
they didn't thrill me either. 

Units that sound interesting but I've not been able to locate are:

H&K Attax Preamp	- 3 channel tube preamp, two effects loops, MIDI 
Realtube Bluetube 924  	- 2 channel plus stack, one effects loop
Gallien Kruger 100MPL 	- solid state, some built in effects, effect loop, MIDI	
BBE 381 		- two channel solid state, one effects loop
Hafler T3		- 3 channel tube, effects loop, MIDI	

Each of these preamps (except for the 100MPL) can be had for less that $400.
I'm not overly thrilled about the all in one boxes like the GSP21, SGX-T2,
SGX-2000, Zoom 9030, etc. since I already have one and know the strengths
and weaknesses. 

Multieffects that seem to fit my requirements (at least on paper) are the 
ART Multiverb Alpha 2.0 or ART DRX-2100. I suppose that I could get by with 
the A3 or Quadraverb if I could supplement with another unit that has different
capabilities.

So, I'm looking to the masses for your expert wisdom on the preamps, and your 
thoughts on a realistic configuration. 
    
    Dan

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
2655.1		DABEAN::REAUME	perfectly<==>connected	`Thu Jan 07 1993 17:41`	16
	Gee - I would consider doing what I did. Get rid of the things that aren't that great except for one type of sound. I sold my GSP-21. I also agree that the all-in-one boxes leave a lot to be desired even though they have improved somewhat. Check into the H & K stuff for sure. The ATTAX may do everything you need, three channels, switch via MIDI and put the Quadraverb or A3 in the effects loop. If you sell off some excess gear you might consider the H & K ACCESS preamp, which is the cream of the crop of MIDI tube preamps. Not cheap, but you won't be shopping for another on anytime soon! The new PS Systems EB100S is a powerful unit and it includes a tube power amp. -B{}{}M-
2655.2		TECRUS::ROST	Give me Beefheart or give me death	`Thu Jan 07 1993 17:46`	13
	You might want to check out the Hughes and Kettner Attax first. Their small preamps (Cream Machine, Blues Machine, etc.) have a real power amp (1 watt!) and speaker emulators and have gotten high marks from many folks. What they lack is much in the way of control flexibility, no presets, heck there is no tone control on the Cream Machine unit! The Real Tube units have no speaker emulation and I doubt that the solid state units will come very close if what you already have, including the SR&D box, don't do it for you. The Ensoniq DP-4 probably will satisfy your FX cravings for configuration and control capabilities, but you'll have to come up with more than $800...I think list is about $1500!
2655.3	SansAmp	SSDEVO::LAMBERT	Up on Cripple Creek	`Thu Jan 07 1993 20:51`	6
	I'd check out the rack mount SansAmp preamp/emulator. Never used one myself, but they've gotten high marks from people I know who have tried and/or use them. -- Sam
2655.4		DREGS::BLICKSTEIN	Here all life abounds	`Mon Jan 11 1993 17:06`	25
	I "ditto" on .3's suggestion to look into a amp emulator. That may be what you are missing in the sound. SansAmp seems to be the most popular, although many multi-effects units have an amp emulator of some kind built into them (Roland GP-16 for example). I also like the "processed sound". In fact, when recording, I prefer it. To my rapidly-going-deaf ears, it doesn't sounds as a mic'ed amp when you solo a track, but it seems to be MUCH easier to mix. Amped mic's have a tendency to not jibe with other instruments. It's hard to put what your ears here into words, but I sorta feel like it's much harder to get mic'ed guitars to fit into the mix without either muddying it up, or dropping out. I guess the best way to put it, is that it's hard to get it "into the same audio space" as the rest of the mix. Compression seems to help - it's just that processed guitar is just easier to record and guarantees you a pretty decent product. With mic'ed guitars, it's hit or mixed. BTW, I believe this problem (whatever it is) is one of the most common failings of band demos. Can anyone explain this phenomena?
2655.5	What about?	GIDDAY::KNIGHTP	I'll get you with my disentigrating pistol	`Tue Jan 12 1993 18:04`	16
	re -1 Q. can anyone explain this phenominum ? A. place foreginger and thumb of one hand together to form a circle, place said circle over nose, and with dumb expression on face move circle back and forth. 8^). Re orig note Stay away from the quad GT of you want a real marshall or any other tube sound, it will give you your processed distortion sound but not tube. I am in the same prob with the GT good clean,chorus,flange etc pretty good processed dist, but zero tube / warmth sound. I was thinking about the MP1 but they are mega dear over here. What is this ADA preamp and Kittty hawk stuff like, could I connect My GT to this stuff and then go straight into the desk (no amp)? P.K.
2655.6	Preamp search had ended	FREEBE::POWELL	From the disk of Dan's K-Mart VAX	`Thu Jan 28 1993 00:23`	21
	A quick update on my progress. I haven't decided on what effects unit is best yet, but I did get a winner in the preamp category. I settled on a Hughes and Kettner Attax tube preamp. This thing is exactly what I was looking for. It has three channels; clean, crunch and lead, with three band eq and adjustable gain for each channel. There is one mono/mono effects loop and one mono/stereo effects loop. It also features two direct outs and two recording outs with built-in cabinet emulators. Channel switching is absolutely silent. I still can't believe the tones I'm able to get! All for $395. There is a MIDI option available but as far as I can tell it only allows for channel switching. Anyone familiar with Roland equipment will appreciate this; the manual for this preamp makes Roland documentation look like Pulitzer prize material. For example, the documentation states in many places that this is a tube preamp, but there is no mention of how to change it, nor does it state what kind of tube is used. Documentation aside, I am a very happy camper right now. Now to find a suitable multieffects unit .... Dan