Conference napalm::guitar

    I saw a cool electric upright on Friday night.  The bass player was
    Mike Rivard, one of the journeyman bassists on the Boston area club
    circuit.  The bass looked similar to the more well known electric
    uprights like BSX and Clevinger, but a bit less high-tech and a bit
    more wood.  There's almost no body to speak of, just a wooden slab
    with fold-away supports for the players leg and side.  The lower
    portion of the body was an extension that also slid in, so it looked
    like it would fold up very compactly for travel.  One key feature was
    that it had a full upright-style bridge; many people think this is key
    to getting a good upright sound.  Both BSX and Clevinger use smaller,
    special design bridges.  Also, there were no integral electronics;
    amplification was done with a standard Fishman bridge transducer, just
    the way you would on a regular upright.  I liked the sound of this bass
    a lot.  Of course, Mike's a superb player which doesn't hurt either,
    but the bass did sound nice and worked very well in an electric band
    context.
    
    I found out that the bass was built by Mike's roommate, and is one of
    several prototype instruments.  He hopes to eventually go into production,
    but for now it's probably possible to have him custom build one.  I plan
    on taking a trip down to check the situation out; more later.
    
    /rick

    
    on an acoustic upright, it is the place of the bridge relative to
    the sound peg on the inside that gets the tone for you.
    
    Most cheap < $1000 acoustics are KAY plywood jobs. I suspect they
    may be fine for the folk/bluegrass and even some jazz work. If you
    want something that sounds good with a bow, hunt for a bargain with
    a carved top -ie: find someone who doesn't exactly know what they have
    since fine carved top bases go for several thousand. I have played
    one bass that has plywood sides and back with a carved spruce front.
    It was made out of parts from a an old public school bass, the action
    was not terrific and it was only a 3/4 size, but it certainly sounded
    very nice.   I tried to get a bargain, but they knew they had something
    better than std plywood job!
    
    i btw, find it a real transition from upright to electric bass guitar.
    Probably since i play the bass electric like a guitar and play the
    upright with the right hand-positions etc.  A friend who is a terrific
    jazz bass player tries to use the same technique for both (like no
    using third finger until in 7th position) - but i notice he has just
    gone and bought a fretless.  To me however, they feel like 2 different
    instruments - try playing some Mozart on your electric sometime - for
    me, a real mental stretch....
    
    So, anybody out there use a bow? If yes, which kind, French or German?
    
    
    bob

    Good to see a topic on this!  I wonder how many acoustic bassists there
    are in DEC?  I'll start it off here.
    
    Here's a little info on my rig.
    
    Bass:	Pfreschner (It's an old German plywood bass, circa 1940)
    		I bought it at a building wrecking company in Stamford Ct
    		about 2 years ago (would you believe) for about $650.00.
    		I had it worked over by an excellent craftsman, Leonard
    		Harlos, from Plympton, MA.  It cost about an additional
    		$550.00 to get it fixed up, plus another $400.00 for 
    		accessories and decent strings.  The bottom line is that
    		I'm not sorry I spent the bucks because it's a great
    		sounding bass with real nice action now.
    
    Strings:    Dr Tomastik Spirocore Steel Strings.
    
    Pickup:     I use a bridge mounted Fishman BP100 transducer and like it
    		a lot.  It's probably the most popular pickup in use today.
    
    Bow:	I have 2 bows: 
    
    		 1) A French style which I purchased through my
    		local music store who ordered it through some guy in NJ who
    		rebuilds old bows.  It's a decent bow, Brazilwood and horse 
    		hair construction.  This is the bow I use on gigs for
    		jazz playing.  I get a little more mobility playing French
    		style vs. German.
     
    		 2) 1 German style made in Czechoslovakia.  This is a
    		beautiful bow which was purchased by my son on a school
    		trip there last summer.  It's also made of Brazilwood and
    		strung with horse hair.  I use this bow for practicing
    		classical pieces.
    
    	Bow Rosin:  Kolstein All-weather rosin seems to have the right bite
    		in all kinds of weather.  I've had good luck with this one
    		after trying several brands.
    
    	Music interests:  Playing jazz in small groups.  I jam most of the
    			time with 4 and 5 piece groups as well as the Ross
    			Warner Octet (consisting of all DECies).  Once in a
    			while, I'll play a gig if it comes along.  Also, I
    			play in the DECBIGBAND (but usually use bass 
    			guitar for this).
    	
    
    	Okay, who's next?
    
    -Ralph

    Bass:	It's a Framus 3/4, with a cutaway (like on a guitar).  My
    		teacher used to tell me I'd never get any symphony gigs
    		because of that cutaway, but it was "good enough for jazz".
    		The top is solid spruce, but back and sides are laminate
    		(sounds so much classier than "plywood", doesn't it :-).
    		Round back and ebony board, probably about 30 years old
    		Lot's of repaired cracks, but the sound is superb when it's
    		set up right.
    
    Strings:	Thomastik Spirocore (what else)
    
    Bow:	German, cheap student model, probably made in Japan.  I
    		never graduated to the need for a better one.  Hey Ralph,
    		I don't know too many people who play both German and
    		French; it's usually one or the other and often a matter
    		of religion.  As you suggest, I believe the French is a more
    		mobile bow, and the German is better for power and tone.
    
    Rosin:	Pops.  I love this stuff, never tried anything else that
    		came close.
    
    Where I grew up, most jazz players and a lot of the symphony guys used
    3/4 size basses; they seem the ideal compromise between sound and
    portability.  I've also seen some nice 7/8 instruments.  Never played
    a full sized bass, but my teacher used to say they were harder because
    of a long swell on the attack.
    
    I've also heard of Lenny Harlos; he's supposed to be one of the top repair
    guys in the Boston area and does a lot of work for the BSO.  Also,
    check out the Boston String Instrument Company on Huntington Ave, near
    Symphony Hall.  Always lots of interesting used uprights there, and the
    proprieter (can't think of his name) is a real character.
    
    /rick

    
>    		The top is solid spruce, but back and sides are laminate
>    		(sounds so much classier than "plywood", doesn't it :-).
    
         Unless the reader associates laminate with "Formica"...
    

    Basses:	A no-name German plywood bass, 3/4 size, came with a
    		(broken) crystal mike attached inside the body to the peg
    	
    		Ampeg Baby Bass electric upright, fibreglass body, the
    		pickup is integral to the bridge
    
    Strings:	Thomastik Spirocore
    
    Bow:	el-cheapo fibreglass French bow, I don't really have any
    		bow technique, though...all I can play with it is the
    		middle section of "Dazed and Confused"  8^)  8^)
    
    I don't spend too much time with either bass, I'm really an electric
    player who dabbles in the big guy.  I have been using the plywood a bit
    lately playing at folk dances, that's fun and the level of chops
    needed is ultra-low.
    
    							Brian

    Yeah, I have to confess it's been a good ten years since I spent
    serious time with the upright.  However, the guys in the band have been
    bugging me to work it in somehow, so I may be getting back into it.
    
    I've experimented with fretless basses over the years, but without
    much luck.  As someone said earlier, I too treat the electric bass like
    a guitar and use one-per-fret fingering.  But I find it too hard to
    get my intonation down on fretless this way.  Upright fingering is
    better for my intonation, but doesn't feel right on a bass guitar.
    So I'd prefer to play a real upright for fretless work (hence my
    interest in electric uprights).  As Bob said, the bass guitar and
    the upright are too very different beasts, and it seems to work best
    to treat them that way.

	
	Hi folks, I'm in DECPARK/JAPAN. 

	I have played the acoustic bass and had classical bowing lessons since 
	seven years ago. I LOVE jazz music and have a little experience in
	small combo. 
	
	I'd like to introduce my instruments.
		
	BASS: 	I got the secondhand West Germany one though I don't know
		the name of manufacturer. When I got it, there were no labels.
		BTW, It sounds very well in both PIZZICATO and bowing.
		It has solid spruce top, solid maple back and rims and ebony 
		fingerboard. The size is a bit of smaller than so called "3/4".
		
	BOW:	Also secondhand PFRETZSCHNER, German style, made in East 
		Germany. (When got my bass and bow, Germany was not 
		intergrated.)
		

	I think I am very lucky to play my instruments. Because the prices of 
	bass and bow are more expensive than they used to be. I'll play them 
	for my life. 
	
	Well, I'd like to introduce the topic 179.*, FINALY::JAZZ. As far as
	I know it's one and only topic talked about ACOUSTIC bass.
	This topic might be the second one, and I'm glad to join it.
	
	I wonder if you can understand my bad English.	
	Would you please correct sentense or word if it were so bad.

	Thanks in advance.

	Ro Takayama from JAPAN
	
	

    
    Same with me....it's been probably 8 years since I last played the
    thing in public. It's currently disassembled (soundpost and bridge
    down), and in storage.
    
    'Igor' is a circa 1925 Czech 3/4 plywood model, and its strung with
    Swedish-manufactured strings, but I don't think they're Tomastiks.
    Tonally, it's pretty fat across the spectrum, and really sings in the
    middle register. I was taught on French bow (because I was 
    told that certain orchestras only auditioned French-technique players),
    and still have my good one--a nicely balanced rosewood stick, with 
    mother-of-pearl inlay along the bottom of the frog. I remember going 
    through many different rosins before I found one I really liked--Karlsson 
    (and I think it was their No. 2 type). Really made the string pop.
    
    Can't remember the guy who used to work on it, but he had a big shop
    somewhere in lower Manhattan. Never got the C-foot installed, and my
    dream was to someday buy one with a carved headpiece, like Glen
    Moore's (Oregon, Paul Winter Consort). The nicest basses I ever got the
    chance to play were my teacher's (he had an Amati, from about 1780) and
    a full-size blond Prescott, which was an American-made instrument from the
    late 1800s. I remember trying to play the Prescott was something like
    dancing with a bear. But your fingers could fly on it and oh, did that 
    thing scream.
    
    Still have all my exercise books and solo pieces, and I want to
    'excavate' my technique someday in the near future...perhaps just to
    play second or third chair in a community orchestra, for fun. 
    
    Maybe I'm getting old, but the thought of putting on tails again to
    play Rossini or Schubert on a stage with a bunch of other penguins is 
    starting to become appealing. Except this time I won't have to pay a
    double fare on the CTA.
    
    Peter  
    

    A few months back, I purchased a box of assorted strings.  Everything
    from mandolin to stand up bass.  There are approx. 20 to 30 individual
    stand up base strings.  Would any of you guys be interested in looking
    through this and making me an offer???  I really don't know much about
    these "big guys" but I do remember reading that many of them a silver
    wrapped.  I have taken everything I need and would like to see the rest
    of them get some use.  If you are interested, give me a call.
    
    Bruce May
    WMOIS::MAY_B
    dtn 241-4063
    Home 508-827-6458
    

    FYI, this month's edition of 'Bass Player' magazine which is partially 
    divided into a buyer's guide, has a whole section devoted to acoustic
    bass accessories, preamps, etc.  There's also a page full of names and
    addresses of dealers who sell basses and equipment.  One mail order
    place I highly recommend is LeMur Music in Indiana.  It's worth writing
    for their catalog which is loaded with all bass related stuff plus a
    good stock of music and bass recordings.  If I remember, I'll get the
    address from home and will post it in a subsequent note. 
    
    
    -Ralph

    
    well, just to show how stupid youth can be...
    
    I had a lovely German 3/4 of whose maker has long since vaporized in
    my memory that I got via a special deal with assistance from the
    Zilgian(cymbals) family.  Lovely bass which I used at my short visit
    to Berklee in 1971.  Was at the time making the switch from German to
    French Bow.  Anyways, decided i was going to be a folk-singer and
    subsequently traded the bass for a guitar at some place in Central
    Square.  Absolutely, the dummest thing i've ever done. I'm too
    embarrassed to this day to even mention prices.
    
    And now i'm trying to mutate into a cello player.  The hardest thing
    there is the bowing mechanic's are different - especially arm position
    and use.  Last year i got to play bass in a pretty good orchestra for
    a Messiah sing. Handel keeps bass and cello fairly busy.  This year
    i'm gonna see if they'll let me play cello - i figure committing to
    something you know you can't play now is a great way to force the
    learning curve!   I don't know if i'll ever go back to upright! Until
    I get cello down better, it's too confusing to play both.
    
    bob
    

    
    
    I'd just read this thread before I saw this ad in the southern Orange
    County (CA) edition of the South Coast Shopper:
    
    "Stand-up bass, 3/4 Czech made, old with Red-o-ray strings, $1000. firm
    Call Janet, (714) 661-9409"
    
    

    	Re .11, the mail address for LeMur Music to obtain a catalog is:
    
    	Lemur Music Inc.
    	PO Box 5201
    	Bloomington, IN 47407
    
    -RP-

    re .13
    
    Unfortunately, you're right; these babies are expensive.  $1000 is
    pretty cheap for an upright btw.  Almost guaranteed that, at that
    price, it's a plywood instrument.  You usually can't touch used carved
    top basses for under $2K, and it's not uncommon for pro symphony
    players to spend $50k - $100k for their main axes.
    
    Kinda makes those vintage Strats and PRS's seem cheap, don't it.
    
    /rick

    Re: .15
    
    Guess it's kind of tough to bankroll an upright bass "collection",
    eh?
    
    						Brian

    
    Years back there was a NY session player named Homer Mensch that supposedly 
    had a collection of four or five. Insurance must have been fun.
    
    Peter                                      

    I have an acquaintenance in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra who's
    "beater" bass is currently valued at about $60K.  He says it's about
    the minimal quality instrument that is acceptable for a top pro
    orchestra.  His main bass is valued at close to $200K.  And he says
    they are cheap compared to violins!

    Sorry you guys were not interested in the strings in .10,,, a sold them
    to a guy last night for $8.00 a set,,, there were 12 sets of steel
    strings that retailed for over $70.00 each.   

   Well... Over the weekend my significant other got me an early Christmas
gift, for three months anyway... This is quite the different beast than
the electric. I like it already...   I'm using an Englehardt 3/4 plywood
student model with a french bow. 

   Anybody know of any string teachers locally? (Maynard area)?


/John

    
    local to maynard - no.   However, if you decide to try and learn on
    your own a couple of hints.
    
    	Learn the left hand positions and RESIST temptation and find notes
    on your own!  I had a hard time breaking that habit, but it was the
    only way i could realisticly play anything difficult with speed. The
    positons work, and they can even help you on electric bass.
    
    	Use and learn the bow. To me, bowing is the hardest to get right on
    any string instrument, but once you do, you can really play all sorts
    of stuff, not just r-n-r or jazz, but shows, classical and other
    sometimes interesting ways to make a buck!
    
    	Now, mind you, i stopped playing upright last march so i could
    focus on the cello.  There is that big enough difference that i was
    getting real confused, especially trying to play 1 then the other in
    the same gig.   But a tres cool instrument fir sure.....
    
    have fun

    
    -1 is right on both counts....learn the positions, and obtain your 
    intonation from them, not from relative pitch. It'll become automatic 
    after some time. (Then after you're a pro, you can play slightly sharp 
    just like Ron Carter. ;-))
    
    About bowing, learn when to use up and down strokes intuitively when
    you're reading...make it almost as automatic as breathing. If you develop 
    bad habits there, they are hell to break. Take it from one who knows.
    
    Also....if you're going to be bowing, practice how to make the
    instrument sing with the bow. Play long, sustained notes and get used
    to the amount of pressure needed to create your dynamics. You'll
    probably drive your S.O. nuts, but you'll
    also learn how your instrument responds and in what ranges its timbre
    is broad or thin.
    
    And make sure your teacher uses the Simandl book to start you off, if
    you're inclined to go the classical route. For jazz, I've heard good
    things about an old Rufus Reid book published in the old Downbeat
    series, but can't say for sure. In almost 20 years, better ones have
    probably come and gone.
    
    Enjoy....
    
    

    Re .-1
    
    I second the motion for Simandl's book.  It's useful for either classical
    or jazz practicing.  The book is probably one of the best ever written
    for position studies as well as covering all of the major and minor
    scale variations together with teaching how to use a bow.  I've been 
    using Book I for years and still haven't gotten to Book II yet.
    
    For jazz studying also, I'd recommend the "Ray Brown Bass Book."  I
    have Rufus Reid's book too, "The Evolving Bassist" but find Ray Brown's
    book more thorough.  You can obtain all of the above from LeMur Music
    via mail order.  See reply 14 of this note for their address.  I'd
    highly recommend sending for their free catalog.  They have a ton of
    bas instructional books listed.
    
    -Ralph

   I got the Simandl Book-I. It's the best I've seen so far. I'm told that it
is different from the older book though. It is printed in Japenese & English 
instead of German & English.
   I tried to get Book-II, but Carl Fischer (Publisher) says that it is out of 
print - bummer...    I did pick up the supplimental book "Scales, Triads, and
Exercises for String Bass Beginners" (04401) by Dmitry Shmuklovsky. Book-II is
"Systematic Guide for Solo Playing".
   I also picked up "30 Etudes For the Acquisition of a Fine Tone and Rhythmic
Surety" (Carl Fischer 02941) by Simandl - for later on.



/J

   
   So...For the upright, I know of only one or two pickup/systems for our 
lovely beasts. There's that old polytone piezo pickup that you put between
the arches of the bridge. It has an adjustment that expands the ends.
   The other is the Fishman BP-100 that clips on the bridge top between the
E & A, and also between the D & G strings. There is also the Bass Blender.
The complimentary preamp that uses the BP-100 and/or a microphone. I haven't
tried this unit, but it sound pretty cool.
   I'm shure there may be other units out there, but I don't know who they are.
I haven't had much time to go through the hundreds of back issues of The_Bottom_
Line. I have never been able to access any news groups outside of DEC. Does
anyone have any knowledge or experience with other units on the market?


/John

    Re: .26
    
    Some other pickups:
    
    Schertler from Germany (expensive, like over $300, I've heard)
    
    Barcus Berry...I think you can still get these

    
    Has anyone mentioned "Underwood" pickups? These used to 
    insert in both the outside slots of the bridge.  I say "used to"
    becauase I don't know if they're still available.  
    
    IMHO much better sound than polytone or barcus berry, but I 
    never tryed Fishman pickups.  
    
    Of it depends on what sound you're trying for, and your specific settup, 
    like whether you're using gut or steel, and what kind of amp, 
    what style of music. 
    
    I used to use an Underwood playing mostly strait ahead, with low action 
    spirocores, and a Walter Woods amp through Bose speakers.
    However I eventually switched to the much more affordable Polytone
    mini-brute, which sounded better than the Bose even with the stock
    speaker.    
    
    It might be that blue-grass players are more likely to use
    gut strings, because of all the slapping.  And it also seems
    like you're more likely to see a blue grass bass set up with 
    something other than an Underwood pickup.  But Edgar Myer would
    be an exception to that rule, I suppose... Anybody heard of Edgar
    Myer out there? 
    
    While I'm thinking of it, anybody tryed one of those Clevinger
    things?   I sold my bass a few years ago, and have been wondering
    whether it would be fun to have a Clevinger around to play with. 
    
    
    Dave
    

    Hey Dave, can you talk some more about the Walter Woods/Bose
    amp system vs the mini-brute?  Was the mini-brute a 1x15"?
    Did it really sound better than the Woods/Bose setup?
    
    /rick

    
    
    Back when I was trying to get into some jobs around Indianapolis
    in the early 80s, the established player in town was playing a
    plywood bass through a polytone.  He was a very good player,
    and swung very hard, but his sound to me was old fashioned, 
    and kinda dull and thumpy.  But everyone thought that was
    the sound and settup to have if you were good.  
    
    When I showed up with my Woods/Bose settup, they said
    "Don't you have a _real_ bass amp?"  Also, you've
    got to realize alot of them were most familiar with
    the bass sound on the classic recordings with Paul
    Chambers, Reggie Workman, and older Ron Carter, where
    plywood was the norm, as well as gut strings.  
    
    The Woods/Bose settup was much brighter, and I thought, 
    more modern sounding.  More like Buster Williams sound. But in 
    the end I agreed that for a consistantly good sound, a 15 inch
    speaker was needed.  A few times with the bose on their stands
    (they were PA speakers), in certain rooms with certain drummers
    the sound was great.  But the mini-brute was easier to move 
    around also, and I eventually sold the Woods/Bose.  
    
    When Bob Hurst moved to town (he got a degree at Indiana), he
    had a polytone with a JBL 15 inch speaker.  The speaker didn't
    fit as well as the stock speaker into the mini-brute cabinet, 
    but the sound was very good.  
    
    This was during the mid 80s, and I don't know what people do 
    these days, but I heard Charlie Haden was using a Gallien-Krueger
    last time he was here.  

    
    
    If anyone went to see Joe Pass last weekend, he was playing with
    Alan Dawson and a well known local bassist.  The bassist was using
    a woods/bose settup, and I believe an underwood pickup.  He was 
    just using one bose speaker, right near the ground.   
    
    I thought this was a good example of the problems with this
    settup.  He's a monster player, and the sound was nice and
    smooth and singing when the group was playing at very low
    volumes.  However, I didn't think the real low end of the
    bass projected very well, or filled out the low end.  
    
    Another thing I thought with regard to pickups was that Ray
    Brown, one of the all time greats, has a fantastic woody
    sound, and I wonder if he uses a polytone pickup?  It doesn't
    sound like an underwood to me. 
    
    Dave 

   I know for a time, he used the Polytone Piezo with a Poly' bass amp. I have
no idea what he uses now, he's probably still using his bass amp...

/J

   So... I finally started changing my upright strings (one at a time) to
Dr. Thomastik Spirocore. What a lovely singing tone that these things have!
Makes my plywood' sound a hundred times better than those stock-student-
model-strings!

   Your thoughts?




Coff E. Cup

    Hey John, did you get the normal or the light (I think they call it
    "weich") gauge?  When I got new Thomastiks I opted for the standards,
    figuring it was the manly thing to do, but in retrospect I wish I'd tried
    the light ones.
    
    You're right, they are great sounding strings; from what I've heard they're
    pretty much the industry standard, at least for jazz work.
    
    Btw, what are prices up to these days?  I seem to recall they were
    around $80 a set about ten years ago.
    
    /rick

    There are also "solo" strings, meant to be tuned up 
    a step, but they probably wouldn't give you those
    unless you asked specifically.  
    
    I'm not sure those are the same as the light gauge
    or not.
    
    Tomastiks are definately bright, and great for pizz. 
    
    The purple ended strings (name? Udoxa?) might be better
    for bow playing, as the tomastiks are kinda scratchy and
    hard to get a good attack on with the bow. 
    
    Dave

Here in Japan, Spirocore is most popular string set for jazz bass player.
It sounds great when playing pizzicato in jazz. I also uses Spirocore light. 

Nowadays, it costs about 10K yen (about 90$). 


I've heard stock-student-model-strings is not for playing
	but for retaining bridge... :-)


Enjoy playing!

/Takayama, Ro

   I think a rough price now is about $110 - $130 dollars a set. I don't
remember what I have for gauge but I think that they are the lights. It has
the red wrap around the end. I think that buying a set is cheaper than buying
individual strings.


/J

As far as I know, a visible difference between Spirocore normal 
and lights is as follows.

Normal has red wraps around both bottom end and top end. 
Lights has red wraps around bottom end, and violet wraps around top end.

I'm not sure "bottom end" and "top end" are correct expressions 
in English, though what I'd like to mean are 
"An end towards tailpiece" and "Another end towards tuning machine".

Takayama, Ro

re .39
Last night, I looked into my package, and I found a printed small "WEICH" 
on package. Other words were as same as .39. Such like this:

    +----------------------------------+
    |                                  |
    |		"Spirocore"            |
    |	    Kunstler - Seilsaiten      |
    |	    Chromstahl umsponnen       |
    |    	A1 La (III)            |
    |	  NUR FUR ORCHESTERSTIMMUNG    |
    |	Dr. Thomastik - Infirld Wein   |
    |                                  |
    |                                  |
    |    WEICH                         |
    +----------------------------------+

I looked into other package of PIRASTRO(sp?), then I found a suitable word 
"peg-end". How about looking into color of peg-end as written on .38? 
I think it might be helpful for you to tell normal from light.


Takayama, Ro

    
    Doesn't the label mean like "Only for Orchestra Tuning,
    Third String is an A"? 
    
    Dave (who feel qualified to comment having taken
    a year of german in elementary school =B-) )
    

    I guess my son is going to stick with the bass in the orchestra @
    school..and I for one am tired of paying the $65.00/month rental.....
    If I were to buy an upright bass today......any suggestions?  Does
    anybody have any parental observations or remarks on if he should have 
    some $ownership in the purchase....he is 12. 
    
    By the way, it's great to have someone in the house to jam with.
    
    Grins   %^)
    Pc
    

    >>If I were to buy an upright bass today......any suggestions?
    
    Get the boy a P-bass and let him pretend it's an upright!  *Then*
    you'd have somebody to jam with!
    
    8)
    
    Steve (who knows nothing about the big hollow bodies)

    Where are you located?  Lenny Harlos, whose shop is on the South
    Shore (of Boston), is one of the top upright guys in the area.  I'd
    call him first to get his recommendations on where to get a good
    beginner upright.  You probably want to go used.  A new baseline plywood
    model will run about $1200 new; you should be able to find something
    decent used for $500-$600.
    
    /rick

    re: ask Dave Hickernell
    
    I don't think I'm going to be much help.  I bought my Kay student model
    (plywood) double 18 years ago for about $300; I have no idea what they
    go for nowadays. 
    
    I recently visited a friend whose ten- or eleven-year old is learning 
    double bass and he had what he said was a 3/4-size instrument.  It was 
    about halfway between a bass and a cello in size, but was tuned (and 
    sounded) like a bass - cute.  So instruments like that definitely exist.
    If your son is a big 12 he should probably go with a regular-size 
    instrument, whatever they're called, so he doesn't have sell it and 
    adjust his technique as he grows.  That is, if he's going to play a 
    smaller-than-normal bass you should probably continue renting. 
    
    For information on buying, you should probably talk to a music store 
    that supplies band instruments about what's available and how much you 
    can expect to pay.  I wouldn't worry too much about being stuck with a
    student-level instrument; I think they're easy to sell if he tires of
    it or wants to upgrade.  But I would definitely recommend that before
    buying any instrument you're not an expert on you get the opinion of 
    someone who knows these things; I'll bet even student basses are not
    cheap these days, and you want one that's playable.
    
    Good luck, and let us know what you find out.  I'm curious as to what's
    out there and for how much.
    
    Dave
    
    P.S.  Oh, and a good one?  If you have to ask...  %^)

    re 3/4's
    
    These are still fairly good sized instruments, and the most common one
    you'll find.  Most jazz players play either a 3/4 or 7/8.  There is a
    5/8 that's a good size for someone small, but hard to find.
    
    Is he comfortable with the one he has now?  Maybe you can buy it???

    or you could ask Rick Calgani......
    
    8)

    re: -1
    
    make the Calcagni......

    Those Italian names are pretty tough, eh Dawg?  %^)
    
    Dave

    re .48
    
    at last!

    I'm lukkie I kan spel DeeAndreea, but KahlKaagnee is elot tuffer then
    
    Hikkerknel
    
    stiev

    ditto on 3/4 being very common.  I remember seeing
    a few 7/8 size, but I never played a full. 
    
    It can be a good investment.  I bought a carved wood
    bass for 3500 in 82 and sold it for 5000 in 88.  Unfortunately, 
    this makes me think that prices are really through the roof
    now, since this was not a great orchestra instrument. Definately
    check with Lenny Harlos on what's available.  Also theres
    a good store in Cincinatti.  Lenny will know the name. 
    
    I found carved basses were generally more responsive, and therefore 
    easier to get a sound out of with a bow. 
    
    Also it can be a good investment if colleges still
    give scholarships to bassists (and violists) to fill
    out their orchestras. 
    
    Dave 

>    Also it can be a good investment if colleges still
>    give scholarships to bassists (and violists) to fill
>    out their orchestras. 
    
    It may be the only way you can afford to finish the degree you
    started...

A few weeks ago I bought a used plywood bass of indeterminate origin for
$500.  Cost me another $70 to get the missing end pin replaced.  It did
come with a Fishman pickup on it, though, so I'm pretty sure I got a 
reasonable deal.  Came with two bows as well (French style).

After playing this thing for a few weeks all I can say is, *wow*, this
is really different from playing electric!  It almost seems like a
sensuous experience at times.  I'm starting to understand a bit of what
Dave Blickstein is talking about when he waxes rhapsodic about playing a
good grand piano.

Two questions:

    o Before I go embarrass myself at a music store, how do you pronounce
      "Thomastic"?

    o I'd like to learn proper left hand fingering (I used to play cello
      years ago, but I've forgotten, and I'm sure bass fingering is 
      different anyway).  Is the Simandl book still the best recommendation?

-Hal

    Hey Hal, congratulations on the new addition.  You're right, playing
    upright is a very sensual experience.  There's something about that
    sound too; it hits you deep.
    
    Thomastic (or is it Thomastik?) is pronounced like it's spelled,
    'Thomas' with a 'tik' at the end, accent on the 'mas'.
    

    
    I think most legit players are taught to not use the third
    finger until the octave.  However, if you watch some
    great players like Charley Haden (jazz), or even some
    classical players, they'll be using the third in the 
    lower positions, maybe to try and get better tone
    or more flesh on the string, maybe because the lick
    requires it.  
    
    So on the low E string its F (first finger), F# (second finger)
    and G (fourth finger). 
    
    Dave
        

re: .34

>    Btw, what are prices up to these days?  I seem to recall they were
>    around $80 a set about ten years ago.
    
re: .37

>   I think a rough price now is about $110 - $130 dollars a set. I don't
>remember what I have for gauge but I think that they are the lights. It has
>the red wrap around the end. I think that buying a set is cheaper than buying
>individual strings.

I just ordered a set of Tomastik Spiracores today.  The list price is now
up to $183.  My dealer gave me a 20 percent discount which brought it down
to just under $150.

-Hal

    OUCH!

re: .58

>    OUCH!

Actually it isn't as bad as it sounds.  Apparently they last for years.
In fact, some people in rec.music.makers.bass say they that you shouldn't 
even consider changing the strings for at least five years, and that it
takes several years for them to start sounding their best.  I suspect I
probably spend more money a year than that on guitar strings, especially
on the acoustic guitar where they seem to wear out the fastest.

Oh, I took a closer look, and my bass *isn't* of indeterminate origin.
There's a small sticker inside that says:

	Anton Schroetter
	Geigenbaumeister
	Mittenwald / Bayern
	Made N Germany

-Hal

    
    Elderly music has upright bass strings, I noticed
    in their recent catalog.  Including shipping they
    were around $135? I think. . .
    
    Have fun with that bass! 
    
    Dave
    

    A friend of mine was at the antique show this week and commented on
    this 'guitar' he saw (he knows nearly nothing about guitars).
    
    He said he saw a Gibson (mentioned it by name), acoustic-looking piece with
    two knobs near the bottom, that had four-strings (only two of which
    were there) , and stood about five feet tall.
    
    Did Gibson ever make an acoustic/electric standup bass? 
    (seemed to me kinda what he described) 
    
    If not, how about an acoustic/electric bass guitar? 
    (assuming he exaggerated the five-foot tall part)
    
    Larry

    
    
    As I remember, the EB-1 was a wood-grained, violin-shaped bass with a
    pin in the bottom that you could remove and then play the bass as an
    upright.  Not sure how well that idea worked. 
    
    Not 5 feet tall, of course.
    
    Kevin                                   
     

    Don't know what to make of the two knobs, but Gibson made mandobasses
    during the mandolin orchestra craze from the turn of the century
    through the 1920s.  Imagine a giant "A" style mandolin and you'll
    get the picture.  Definitely acoustic, and it is about five feet tall
    (maybe a litte taller, but smaller than a bass fiddle) with four
    strings (unlike the mandolin, the courses are not doubled).  Gibson
    also made mandocellos (guitar sized).  I believe they still make 
    mandolas, or at least Flatiron ("the Montana Division") does.
    
    
    Jim
    

    >                            -< Maybe a Mandobass??? >-
    
    A brief look at that triggered Mondobass! THAT would be a cool name for
    a bass guitar.
    
    I wish I'd seen that 'thing', although I probably still wouldn't have
    known what it was. I forgot to mention that my friend thinks it was
    fretless. I don't know if that helps any.
    
    http://www.gibson.com now has a search engine that
    allows you to enter a serial number, and it will report back
    information about make/model and estimated value. I wish he had written
    down the serial...
    
    Larry

Here it is almost a year later, and I finally got around to locating
a *good* luthier to set up my bass.  When I told him I paid $500 for it
he replied that I was way ahead of the game, as it was worth around $1500.
It was nice to be pleasantly surprised for a change. :-)

-Hal

    I've been listing to alot of acoustic music lately, and have been
    reminded of how much I love the sound of an upright bass.  I'd
    love to own one, but even if I could find a reasonably inexpensive
    (under $1K) bass (like a 3/4-size plywood), I have no place to
    put one.  Is there anything out there that is the size of an
    electric bass that can do a decent approximation of the sound
    of an upright?  I've tried a few acoustic/electric bass guitars,
    but they tend to sound more like electric basses than uprights.
    
    I know there are a couple of companies that make electric uprights
    (Clevinger?), but the price ($2K+) is more than I'm willing to
    spend to try and satisfy this craving.  Any ideas under $1K?
    
    
    Jim  

    Not that I've heard.  Even the most "synthetic" sounding
    amplified upright sounds different from anything else. 
    I can't explain why, though.  The others might sound 
    "good", but not the same. 
    
    Dave
    

re: .66

>    I've been listing to alot of acoustic music lately, and have been
>    reminded of how much I love the sound of an upright bass.  I'd
>    love to own one, but even if I could find a reasonably inexpensive
>    (under $1K) bass (like a 3/4-size plywood), I have no place to
>    put one.  Is there anything out there that is the size of an
>    electric bass that can do a decent approximation of the sound
>    of an upright?  I've tried a few acoustic/electric bass guitars,
>    but they tend to sound more like electric basses than uprights.
    
I can't help you with a subsitute, but if you get a stand for the upright
so you can store it vertically it will only take up about a square yard
or so of floor space.  Hamilton makes a folding bass stand that sells for
around 50 dollars (US) or so.

-Hal

I understand that Godin makes an acoustic-electric Bass which will
approximate the sound of an upright. 

Godin has an interesting line of acoustic-electric instruments.
Inside the body of each instrument there is some kind of harp
device that resonates along with the primary set of strings. 

Former Deccie/Guitar-noter Brian Rost owns one. There should be
a write-up on it in here somewhere. 

Mark

check out note 1204.34 fora discussion of the Godin 
bass.

    Probably the lowest-budget way to approximate this is to pluck the
    strings of an ordinary fretless electric bass somewhere over the
    fingerboard (watch an acoustic bass player and take note of where on 
    the overall string length they pluck).  Combined with the right EQ, 
    you might be surprised by how close this can get you.
    
    Paul