Conference napalm::guitar

    Is it breaking while tuning or playing?
    What gauge strings?
    Is the bridge or nut cutting the string?
    Are you tuning it correctly?
    
    Dave'
    
    

    I have the same problem with my twelve string Alvarez. I just use it as
    is. I put it oooall the way up to 11.....

    I tune mine two steps down (in other words you have to capo on the
    second fret to get concert pitch - but I don't capo....) and I drop the
    bottom Es down to D.
    
    This allows me to use slightly heavier strings as tuning lower helps to
    compensate for the extra pull.
    
    What is best of all however, is that it sounds !!!!!wonderful!!!!
    
    andy

    	I had problems with the G octave breaking at the tuner, ALWAYS
    there so I switched to a .008 and I put small plastic tubing on the
    string where it goes through the tuning peg. I also filed the edge 
    of the hole on the peg a little rounder so that the string does not 
    get such a hard bend there.  
    
    
    FJE

>>    I tune mine two steps down (in other words you have to capo on the
>>    second fret to get concert pitch - but I don't capo....) and I drop the
>>    bottom Es down to D.
    
    Minor nit -- tuning down to D is two half-steps (or one step) down.
    
    
    

	I just bought my first *real* 12 string guitar about a week
    ago. It's a Guild D25-12 acoustic. The night I brought it home,
    I changed strings to DiAddario med lights. The G octave string
    is in fact a .008". I was a little surprised but if you think
    about it, it has to be tuned to a high G note. I have at least 
    5-6 hours of playing time on these strings and so far I haven't
    broken a single string, and mine is tuned to normal pitch EADGBE.
    There must be something wrong somewhere on your guitar if you're 
    breaking strings without even strumming them once. 

	Now that I've had this guitar for a week, I don't know why 
    I didn't buy one years ago. I especially like playing melody lines
    on the lower 4 strings, as the octave strings really make it chime. 
    If you tune the two top pairs slightly off from one another it 
    makes it sound like your playing through a flanger. Neat effect.

	Mark

    
    I had a 12 string (still have but the neck's broken - downside of
    kids!) for 20 years and can honestly say I can only recall breaking a
    string on it once or twice. There HAS to be something wrong with the
    guitar with strings breaking in the manner described in .0. Personally,
    I never bothered with buying this gauge of one string and this of
    another. Just went and asked for a set of medium/light strings for a 12
    string.
    
    Richard

      
      I snap mine off anytime I put new ones on too fast.  Yup, G.
      If I remember to bend and stretch, no prob.  But it will snap
      after three months playing.  I just doesn't like to tune up/down
      a half - SNAP!
    
      Then I restring for the next 3-4 months.  So go slow and bend'em.
      Oh yeah, I tune it to concert pitch also.  What the hell, it's a
      beater, the ephi-gibson that is.
    
      But tuning a Guild D25-12 to concert?   Sounds scary.  I'd hate to
      see such a nice instrument turn pretzel.  I love my D25.  
    
      Rick.
    
    

    
    
    	Ok time for a silly question.....
    
    	What's the point of buying a 12 string that you can't tune to 
    	concert pitch? Seems kinda daft to me....(but what do I know!)
    
    	J

    I imagine each manufacturer has their own recommendation. In the
    case of Guild, they indicate that you can tune to concert pitch if you
    use light gauge strings. If you use heavier gauge strings, they
    recommend a lower tuning. It all depends on how you want your 12
    string. Some folks really like the sound of heavy strings on an
    acoustic 12, so they tune it down and use a capo to play at concert
    pitch.
    
    jim

    A lot of the old 12 strings weren't braced heavily enough for the top
    to support the tension of all those strings at concert pitch, but some
    of the new ones are.  The normal thing for all 12 strings used to be
    tune them down a half step (or a step).  Use of capos is very common
    among 12 string players.
    
    There's a tradeoff anytime you increase the bracing of the top.  If
    it's got more bracing, then it won't be as lively and responsive and
    may not sound as good.  
    
    Personally, I think I'd prefer the sound of a more lightly braced 12
    string tuned a half step down.
    
    I remember I bought a 12 string at an auction once, long ago, before I
    knew a lot of them were supposed to be tuned down.  It was tuned down
    and it played fine.  I got it home and checked the tuning with my
    trusty tuner and tuned it right up to concert pitch.  The top bowed up
    and the neck bowed and the action was suddenly about 1/2 an inch high. 
    I thought I'd gotten ripped off!  I was interested in an electric at
    this shop I did business with, and the owner agreed to give me what I'd
    paid for the 12 string at the auction for it on a trade, so I did it
    and didn't think any more of it until several years later when I found
    out that they were SUPPOSED to be tuned down.  I kind of kick myself
    now, because the thing played and sounded nice tuned down and I'd kind
    of like to have a 12 string.  The price was really low too and it came
    with a nice hardshell case that was probably worth what I paid for the
    guitar by itself.  Live and learn...
    
    Greg

    
    
    	Re -1
    
    

    Umm...  What?

    
    
    	Damn I thought I'd cancelled it...that what happens when you go to
    	enter a reply and you see it's already 5:30....
    
    	Anyway what I was goping to say was...it makes sense now, I totally
    	forgot about having to keep some acoustic properties, guess thats
        comes of playing nothing but electric....
    
    
    	J

    Re .8  Guild 12 strings guitars have dual truss rods, and heavier
    bracing than other 12 strings guitars, and Guild Ads specifically
    state that you can tune them to concert pitch. 
    
    I'll probably try heavier strings tuned a step lower to see if it
    gives a fuller sound. The set I have on mine now is a light gauge
    set and has an 8 gauge G octave string. This string tends to stretch
    out more than the others and is not as loud as the other strings.
    
    But I love that 12-string sound !!!
    
    Mark 

    I mentioned earlier about tuning mine down and dropping the bass Es
    down to D.
    
    What then gives the most wonderful sound is to play soemthing in the
    key of A, so your fifth string is the lowest in the chord, then when
    you go to a D chord, you play the sixth strings ...... magic.
    
    I find I play quite a lot in D on the 12 and its nice to finish off
    with a D chord way up the neck (7th fret? I've never counted) with a
    barre across the top our and your pinkie extend three frets higher.
    
    I am sure you will know what I mean.
    
    The point is that the chord played right across all twelve strings
    shows the tremendous range from the very low D to the very high.
    
    I have been very lucky with my 12. It is about 15 years old, has a
    perfect neck and very rarely needs tuning. 
    
    I also have a Martin HD28 and as far as 6 strings go, I wouldn't want
    anything else.
    
    The same applies to my FT212-12 Guild. 
    
    A 12 is a fun guitar to play which lets you get away with all sorts of
    things you cannot do on a 6.
    
    
    andy  
    	

    
    
       Hi Mark.
    
       I was looking thru the WantAd and also noticed the D25-12.  
    I wanted it but, as 12s tend to self destruct - I could bring
    myself to spend semi-big money on a 12.  So I do the beater 
    thang.  
    
       I'm glad to hear the D25 can go to concert pitch.  Now I'll 
    be looking more closely.   I have to stay it again - I LOVE my
    D25.  
    
       A question just popped into my head.   Has the D25-12 always
    had a dual truss rod?   Are there certain years to stay away from?
    
       Rick.
    
      

    
    Can someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the debate about concert
    pitch irrelevant? To my knowledge there's nothing in the book that says
    'c' on a guitar has always to be on the A string 3rd fret or the B
    string, 2nd fret. OK, this is the normal way of tuning a guitar but you
    are not compelled to do so. By lowering the tuning of a guitar a tone
    you will still be in concert pitch except that you will play different
    shapes for the same 'sound' (When you played a D you now play E). The
    critical thing is that when you say you're playing a 'c' (wherever that
    may be on the neck) then it should be a concert pitch c and not a few
    hertz off either way.
    
    Richard

    re .18
    
    Makes sense to me.
    
    
    andy

    
    
       Welllllll, I wouldn't call it a "debate".
    
       It's more along the lines of *some* 12 strings
    will self-destruct when tuned to concert pitch.  
    Concert pitch implies nothing more than standard
    tuning.   
    
       The big news, ('least for me) was there are 
    some 12 string rigs out there that can be tuned 
    to concert pitch all the time.  Personally, I did
    not know that.  Mine is tuned to concert and the 
    action is getting kinda high.  
    
       That's all.
    
    
    
       RickRat(tm)
    
    

    I'm not sure all D25-12's have dual truss rods, but the one I own
    does. Guild is not the only manufacturer in the world to use dual
    truss rods. Rickenbacker has been using dual truss rods for years.
    Rick also uses I-beam shaped truss rods instead of the usual circular
    type that everyone else uses.
     
    Newer Guilds like mine also have heavier bracing than the average 
    12-string acoustic guitar which protects the neck joint and the 
    top itself from distorting. As far as Greg's comments about using 
    heavy construction with standard tuning vs lighter construction
    with dropped tuning, it seems to me that with the proper design
    considerations, it is possible to make a heavily braced instrument
    just as responsive as the lightly-braced instrument with lower
    tension. Judging from the tone of my D25-12, I would say that
    Guild was successful at it.
    
    I agree in part with what is being said in .17  It would be clearer
    if Guild advertized "Can be tuned to Standard tuning" rather than 
    using the word "Concert pitch".   
    
    I'd like to try a set of heavier-gauge strings on mine with dropped
    tuning to see if it makes any differance in tone.
    
    Mark

    Dual truss rods are not a new idea at all.  Danelectro was using them
    on their guitars back in the fifties.
    
    						Marshall Stax

I owned a new Martin D-12-20 back in '67 - a mahogany bodied, 12-fret 12-string. 
It was lighter than many other 12's and Martin recomended tuning it at least one 
step low. Had a nice tone and was pretty easy to play.

Later in life, I sold the Martin and stilll later bought a Guild F-512R - their 
then top of the line, rosewood 12-string jumbo, with a 14-fret neck. It was 
stanard then for Guild 12's to have the dual truss rod, and they could be tuned to 
concert pitch IF you used a light guage set. The guitar was a monster - very loud 
with a much more powerful sound than the Martin. It would growl. But it was tough 
to play on the left hand.

The point here is: follow the manufacturers string recommendation.

The orginal question: why are these G-strings breaking? I used to break one 
occasionally even though I do not play hard. If you're tuning down a step or two, 
you should have no problem - but... I'd check with a reputable repair person and 
see what they say.


Paul

     <<< Note 2598.15 by MILKWY::JACQUES "Vintage taste, reissue budget" >>>
                       -< Guild 12's and concert pitch >-

    Re .8  Guild 12 strings guitars have dual truss rods, and heavier
    bracing than other 12 strings guitars, and Guild Ads specifically
    state that you can tune them to concert pitch. 
    
    I'll probably try heavier strings tuned a step lower to see if it
    gives a fuller sound. The set I have on mine now is a light gauge
    set and has an 8 gauge G octave string. This string tends to stretch
    out more than the others and is not as loud as the other strings.
    
    But I love that 12-string sound !!!
    
    Mark 


I've had an EKO (Italian) 12-string since 1976; and the previous owner had it
for about two years before selling it. These make have truss rods and heavier
bracing as others. I've had the problem with the G octave also but this has been
depending on the gauge and the make of the strings themselves.

And I agree with Mark, I love that sound!!!


Edgar

    .18
    
    I guy I used to jam with deliberatley refrained from tuning to a set
    pitch. He'd tune his low E to "about the pitch I want" and tune the rest
    of the guitar to it. The bass player would then tune to him and whola -
    he was away. He was paranoid of having his licks stolen and he felt it
    made it harder for him to be ripped off if you couldn't 'play along'.

    
    re: .18
    
    That's what I call paranoid!  Can you imagine if the guy ever because
    really well known and someone worked out the tab and published it? 
    
    Sometimes I think it would be a lot of pressure to be one of those
    guys in the spotlight.
    
    As far as tuning my 12-string.....I usually tune it down and use a
    capo.  
    
    One time a friend of my brother who plays guitar came by while I was
    away and decided he was going to tune it up for me, sans capo.  I was
    slightly upset..... 
    
    Gotta keep 'em under lock and key....
    
    
    guy

    Sounds like an idiot to me.  How stupid can someone be to think that
    their licks are so unique that nobody's ever done anything like 'em
    before?  That dude better wake up and catch a ride on the real world.
    
    There are only six strings on a normal guitar, and only 20-24 frets. 
    Only 12 notes in the western system of music, about 3 octaves of which
    you can actually get to on a guitar.  Doesn't take a doctorate in
    statistics to figure out that there aren't that many combinations.
    
    Greg

    > aren't that many combinations....
    
    Lessee...
    
    36 notes in 3 octaves. Assuming 1 measure of music...
    
    Whole notes: 36 permutations (36*1)
    1/2 note:    1296            (36*36)
    1/4 note     46,656          (36*36*36*36)
    1/8          2,821,109,907,456  (Damn! no superscript....)
    
    Edd

>Sounds like an idiot to me

    I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that this guy is in fact a true idiot.

    --Ron

    I saw Chris Proctor play once in MA... between songs he was talking
    about some of the tunings he uses.  He joked that once he was playing a
    clinic at a store in CO and, after a little while, some of the rockers
    came up to him and asked him what the heck he was doing, since there
    weren't any shapes they had ever seen!
    \Gary

    Last night, I tuned my Guild 12-string acoustic to dropped tuning 
    (one whole step below standard tuning). I was amazed at how much
    differance it made. The guitar is MUCH easier to play, and the
    tone is just as good as before, possibly even better. The lower
    pitch gives it more of a growl, and surprisingly there is no buzzing
    or other problems that I expected.
    
    I tried using the Shubb capo I have but it is not the right
    model for my 12-string. Shubb makes several differant models. 
    I need one for a wide fretboard with a slight radius. 
    
    Mark
    

	Yeah, I keep my Ovation 12 tuned to D. The whole guitar seems to come 
alive. I originally did it to take some of the stress off neck when I knew
I wouldn't be using it for a while. I liked it, so the next time I put
new strings on it I has the shop adjust the neck's truss rod for the lower
tuning, and just left it there.

-John-