Conference napalm::guitar

Yo JD !!  They (MET) covered my stuff under the renters policy I had in Mass..
Did they change ??  You didn't tell them you were pro did ya ??  *Don't*
tell 'em that !!  Tell 'em its only a hobby.

jc

    
    I don't have MET (MEEMIC insurance), but to give you an idea on pricing,
    I just added a writer to my home-owners policy to insure some of my
    better guitars.  I think it came to $14 a year for about $4800 worth
    of stuff.
    
    As Coop noted, this was for coverage for non-professional use, but
    that's fine for me (I gig about twice a year).  My home owners policy
    covers $1000 on musical instruments, so I didn't bother to cover 
    everything.
    
    They consider my piano to be furniture, not a musical instrument.
    
    Jim

Oh, and as Jim noted - A lot of times you need to come up with
a rider (or is it really a Writer???).  I had to make a list with
S/N's and pictures of all my stuff.  My homeowners covers X amount,
and I surpassed that threshold I guess.  It's a good idea to get your
S/N's documented anyway.

jc

    
    be careful, guys...if the insurance company can prove that you've ever
    gotten paid, your coverage evaporates into thin air.  What's the point
    in paying for non-existent coverage?
    
    Besides, if you're actually making money, this is another deduction you
    can charge against your earnings.  If you don't know how to take
    advantage of this, read up on Schedule C...every little bit helps!
    

From what I understand, you can't get coverage under a renters policy
unless the stuff never leaves the house...

Under a home owners policy, I think you have more options, *BUT* you
still have take out a rider because most of this stuff is portable, and
has a greater chance of loss or damage outside the house then inside...

(at least this is they rap I got when I spoke to our agent a few years ago.)


All of this can be hidden if you don't have your social security number
listed on any checks that you recieved while playing out.

They have NUTHIN to go on if you've never recieved payment in the order
of a check you had to endorse.  Cash only, you're o.k.

Then there's the other side of this,,, if you CLAIM this stuff for
tax purposes, then you have a whole new level of insureance to
deal with, because it changes from hobby to business real - real fast.

If you don't claim, and never were the recipient of a check payment,
they'll NEVER prove you're stuff ever left the house.

    The Musicians Union (puke,gag, barf...I know) offers insurance at $2.75
    per $100.00. They get this low rate because they negotiate it as a group
    rate. The added benefit here is that they include LIABILITY insurance
    for only $10.00 more so those of you with tube amps out there when you
    set your favorite club on fire you are covered!!! Bad wiring,
    overloaded circuits, etc. also causes fires. I talked to my insurance
    person and no company can even come close. But this opens a new can of
    worms.....The Musicians Union. I don't know abot the rest of you but in
    these parts musicians get rather irrational, unpredictable and prone to
    acts of violence when you mention the "U" word
      

    My basic intention is to get insurance only for the replacement of 
my equipment if it's stolen, burned to ashes, or embedded in trees 
by hurricanes and tornadoes... You get the idea... It's not for profit
or buisness purposes.

/John

    I have a rider on my MET homeowners policy to insure all of my
    equipment. When I took it out, they asked me if it would be used
    professionally, and I said yes, figuring there was no point in lying
    and having a claim rejected later. They said no problem, it only made a
    slight difference in the premium. My rates on this are very reasonable,
    similar to what's been described in here. They claim my stuff is
    covered for *any* type of loss, including dropping something down the
    stairs or having my kid step on a guitar.
    
    I used to have a MET VIP renters policy before I was a home owner. I
    didn't have this rider at that time, but the terms of my VIP renters
    policy were very similar to my current homeowners policy, so you might
    check that out as a possibility if you don't have a VIP policy. A lot
    of this may just depend on which agent you talk to - some might know
    about things that others don't. If you don't get the answer you're
    looking for, try another agent in another office. I've always had
    pretty good luck with the office in the Mill.
    
    As a last resort, I know other musicians who have "marine" policies
    with companies that specialize in musical instruments and other
    off-the-wall stuff. If MET won't help out, I could try to dig up some
    other names for you.
    
    - Ram

    Some terms that might be helpful to understand when insuring things:
    
    Personal Articles Floater - A rider added to a basic HO-3 (Homeowners)
    or HO-4 (Renter's) policy to insure specific high-value goods.  The
    term "stated value" is applicable here.  Proof of authenticity and
    ownership as well as valuation (appraisal) may be required.
    
    "10% Away" - A provision of most HO-3 and HO-4 policies that covers
    most valuables when traveling, up to a limit of 10% of the face value
    of the master policy.  This is helpful for kids at college under their
    parents' policy, or for anyone who travels, since your auto policy may
    not cover theft of contents (and certainly won't from a hotel room).
    
    Replacement Cost Endorsement (RCE) - A rider to most HO-3 and HO-4
    policies that will reimburse ("indemnify") you on a new-for-old basis,
    as opposed to the old-for-old value of your standard policy (actual
    cash value less depreciation).  However, if value has increased due to
    collectibility, rarity, etc, and not general inflation, then see
    "Personal Articles Floater".
    
    Any questions?	:7)
    \Gary

    	My father-in-law is visiting from Portland, Oregon and we
    started talking about my brother-in-law (Dane from the Stormy Monday
    Jam in Merrimack, N.H. last year who played the hollow-body Flying Vee) 
    and he told me that Dane's apartment in Nashville, Tenn. got broken into...
    everything was stolen! Everything! All his midi equipment he brought
    back from Japan, guitars, my father-in-law 1960' s tweed Fender Champ (cool
    tone) and *my* Les Paul Recording Model guitar that he was using to do
    his recording (Dane really liked the recording tone of this guitar). If 
    this wasn't bad enough...   my cheapo brother-in-law had no insurance! I 
    was so uPsEt...   here he has someone else's equipment in his posession 
    and he didn't even think to get renters insurance. Gawd forbid it would set
    him back $100.00 a year!  GrrrrrrrrrrRrRRrRrRRrRrRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Thanks for letting me vent alittle!
    
    		Fred (who's_really_ticked_off_in_New_Hampshire)

    Oh did I tell you that I bought that Les Paul Recording from a guy
    in N.Y. who told me he was Les Paul's Grandson????
    
    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
    
    
    OK...   I'm better now...    
    
    
    
    NOT!

    That SUCKS!

    OK, time for my annual plug.
    
    I'm tired of hearing stories like this.
    
    People.... you NEED to get your stuff insured, and you need iron-clad
    insurance!
    
    There are SO MANY misconceptions about insurance... don't find out
    the hard way.  Listen to what I have to say, and (of course) talk
    to an insurance agent.
    
    For example, there's a good chance that "renters insurance" would NOT
    cover Fred's brother-in-laws loss!!!!!
    
    Renter's insurance AND HOMEOWNERS insurance policies typically 
    have SEVERAL KEY exclusions:
    
    	o Business equipment is NOT covered!!!!
    
    	  You play in a band?  You EVER get paid for it?  Your stuff is 
    	  business equipment!  
    
    	o Collectables and certain kinds of goods that appreciate in
    	  value like jewelery AND... vintage instruments must be declared!
    
    	o Your stuff probably is NOT covered when its out of the apartment
    	  or house (at gigs, in cars, etc.)
    
    	o Many policies have limits on particular areas, like "no more
    	  than $2000 for stereo equipment" and some of these may apply
    	  to music equpiment
    
    	o MOST policies are "depreciated value".  This is the depreciated
    	  value of your equipment and typically will not even come
    	  close to what it cost to get it "replaced".  What you want
    	  to have is "replacement value".
    
    Bottom line: if you THINK you've got this covered by your homeowners
    insurance or your renters insurance, you need to THINK AGAIN!
    
    So what kind of insurance do you need?   
    
    Well, it is usually called an "Inland Marine" policy or "rider" (i.e.
    a supplement to your regular insurance).
    
    What companies charge musicians for these things varies greatly.  I
    got quoted anywhere from $100 to $1100.   Lots of companies won't
    even write these policies for musical equipment.
    
    If you do NOT spend time making sure you're covered, the chances are
    far better than you'd like that some day you will get not just "robbed"
    but "robbed and f*cked".   Robbed by the robbers, and f*cked by the
    insurance company.
    
    Consider that one scenario is that you go from having a nice setup to
    absolutely NOTHING and no money to replace it!  
    
    End of sermon

    FWIW,
    
    I have a rider on my home-owner's policy to cover my musical equipment
    (the regular policy only covers up to $1000 on musical instruments).
    This rider is not valid for coverage for equipment used for business
    purposes, but that's not a problem for me (at least currently).  I
    think for business use, you usually need to go to an inland marine
    policy.
    
    Oh, BTW, at least with my policy, pianos are considered furniture,
    and not subject to the $1000 limit.
    
    Jim

    Besides the type of insurance that db suggests, which is mandatory if
    you want to recover from this type of situation, I also suggest another
    type of insurance which I find is very good for avoiding such
    circumstances in the first place:
    
    Mine is chrome, has a wood handle, weighs about a pound, and contains
    several high velocity projectiles well suited for anybody who thinks
    my home or vehicle is fair game.
    
    This thought for the day brought to you by:
    
    -b

    If you decide to go with Brian's method... while your at your insurance
    agent's office you might also want to talk about life insurance.

    Hey Fred, 
    
    If you have insurance that covers your equipment, it may be covered
    even though it was in your b-i-l's apartment.  Might be worth checking
    into.  I know my agent said my stuff would still be covered under my
    homeowner's policy if it was like, in my car, or something (long as I
    didn't may any money using the stuff, which...I never have, so I'm
    safe).
    
    Greg

    Greg's right,
    
    If it's an Inland Marine policy it should be covered.
    
    	db

people aren't exactly getting "f*cked by the insurance company" just
because the insurance company doesn't give us money on the loss of
equipment we didn't insure.  Specialty items, jewelry, furs, yachts,
baseball card collections are outside the scope of a basic policy.  The
policies cover a limited amount of this type of loss (often $1000 to
$1500).  After that, you're in extra insurance territory.

Yes, it hurts to pay 1% of the appraised value of my wife's jewelry
every year, but I can't afford to replace it if she loses it or it
gets ripped off.  So, I pay.

  

    Some people do get abused by insurance companies to deliberatly lead
    them to believe their music gear is insured under their
    homeowner/renters policy when it isn't.  They often don't find out that
    it's not until they try to make a claim.
    
    I have repeatedly asked my agent about my policy and what's covered,
    provided equipment lists, etc, and he assures me that it's all covered
    as long as I don't use it professionally.  I don't, so it shouldn't be
    a problem.
    
    Now, what would be a problem is paying the rates some places have
    quoted me for "inland marine" type policies (back when I had
    aspirations of playing in a gigging for-hire type band).  In a couple
    of years worth of those ridiculous rates, I could have REPLACED all the
    stuff with new!
    
    Greg

    > people aren't exactly getting "f*cked by the insurance company" just
    > because the insurance company doesn't give us money on the loss of
    > equipment we didn't insure.  
    
    Actually, I agree completely.
    
    What I really meant is that I've known a lot of people who had a loss,
    reported it to their insurance company, who turned them down, and then
    FELT like they were f*cked, even though I don't think the insurance
    company did anything wrong.
    
    re: House
    
    Greg,
    
    I found that you REALLY need to do some shopping when you go looking
    for an Inland Marine policy.    
    
    The avenue I found best: try and find a company that will do it as
    a "rider" to your homeowners policy.  I got mine from Allstate that
    way for $99 for $10K worth of insurance.
    
    The problems with this that I found were that there is a limit to the
    dollar value that they'll insure, and, of course, I had to switch
    my entire Homeowners policy to them just to get it.
    
    On the other hand, I must say that my experience with claims was
    nothing short of "excellent".   They kept coming up with reasons to
    increase the size of my benefit when I sustained some damage from
    a windstorm.
    
    	db

>    I found that you REALLY need to do some shopping when you go looking
>    for an Inland Marine policy.    
    
    Clearly, since about 80% of the places I called had never even HEARD of
    that type policy!  Most of the rest of them didn't offer it.  As I
    recall, I could only find one place locally who'd insure music
    equipment that was being used professionally and the premium was
    something like half the cost of the stuff every year.  Probably helps
    living in a major metro area (which I don't).
    
    But...that was at least 4-5 years ago and I never did end up gigging
    professionally, so it didn't really matter for me.  If I'd actually
    gotten into a band like that, I'd probably have looked harder.
    
    Greg

    I have my homeowner's policy through Metpay. They offer a rider.
    If I remember correctly, it is less than $10 per $1000 of coverage. 
    The only thing stopping me from adding one is that they want everything 
    appraised. It's something I haven't gotten around to it yet. I've got
    so much stuff that I would need appraised, I would really need to have
    someone come to my house and appraise it all. I suppose I should stop
    procrastinating about this and just do it!
    
    In the mean time, I'll have to count on man's best friend to protect my 
    equipment. My german shepherd has to earn her keep somehow!
    
    Mark

I have in writing from my insurance company that it's covered under homeowners
because (drum roll)

it's not my primary source of income (the band)

dbii

>    The only thing stopping me from adding one is that they want everything 
>    appraised. It's something I haven't gotten around to it yet. I've got
>    so much stuff that I would need appraised, I would really need to have
>    someone come to my house and appraise it all.
    
    My company (Allstate) wanted that too, but all I needed to do was to
    bring a LIST of what I had to a music store, and have THEM give their
    own estimate of the market value of what I had.
    
    Didn't cost me a thing (my good friends at Daddy's Junky Music did it
    for me) and the only "trouble" it caused was having to come up with
    the list.  A list is something you should have anyway.  If you should
    get ripped off, even if you don't have insurance, it helps to be
    able to present the police with a list of everything that was taken
    along with all the serial numbers.
    
    I just used that as a good excuse to learn to use Microsoft Access
    (a relational database program for the PC).   
    
    All this reminds me... the list my insurance company has is about
    5 years old.   Oddly enough, I haven't bought too many things in that
    time period but there are one or two fairly high-priced items so...
    
    it's time for ME to give my insurance agent a call.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Such a list is useful for lots of things in addition to insurance
    
    	1) Insurance
    	2) List to give police in the event of a loss
    	3) Gives you an idea of the overall value of your gear
    	4) I use the SAME database to compute depreciation of my stuff for
    	   taxes

    What do you do when your insurance starts jerking you around about
    replacement costs and starts subtracting depreciation from your claim 
    on vintage items that are no longer made?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    If you have purchased replacement cost coverage, I would fight
    (legally, if necessary) to force them to cover the fair market
    value of vintage items in comparable condition to yours.  For
    instance, if you had a 1959 Les Paul stolen, I would seek pro-
    fessional estimates of what it would cost to buy another one
    in similar condition, and insist that the insurance company
    reimburse you that amount.
    
    If your policy doesn't cover replacement cost, then you probably
    don't have much recourse to prevent them from depreciating the
    stolen items.
    
    Good luck....I hate trying to pry money from insurance companies...
    They act like your best friend when selling you a policy, but pull
    a P.T. Barnum / W.C. Fields routine when you file a claim.
    
    /Steve
    

    Well I've done that and am awaiting their response.  I obtained
    appraisals from local shops for most of the items and sent them in.
    
    What stinks is if you plan on buying somthing else with the money. 
    This company only allows for replacement coverage for items you plan on
    replacing (and must be like quality).
    
    Mike

    Replacement cost is replacement cost.  How much would it cost
    you to purchase another Kittyhawk M1?  Since they are very hard to come
    by, I'd say they are irreplaceable...
    
    jc

    What I especially don't like is them only giving you half the money up
    front and they'll refund the difference after you replace it with half
    your own money.  You are locked in.
    
    Mike

    You've got to be kiddin'.  What difference
    does it make what you intend to do with the 
    money?  It seems to me that should have 
    _nothing_ to do with the insurance company's
    obligation.    
    
    Isn't that the way it works with car insurance?
    Say your car gets bashed - they owe you what
    it would cost to fix it, but its up to you 
    whether you actually fix it or not.(?)
    
    They owe you the money, not a new guitar.  And
    they can't make you spend it.    
    
    Am I missing something?
    
    Dave
       
    

    It sounds like there may be some fine print in the policy that kicks
    in when you file a claim. 
    
    If I were you I would go on a major shopping spree and replace all of
    your gear with *comparable* equipment. Float the other half of the cost
    with a credit card and then hit them up for the remaining half. The
    equipment doesn't have to be exact replacement of what you lost. It
    just has to be comparable.
    
    Once you get done with this, I'd dump this carrier and find a new ins
    company. Make sure you get 100% replacement cost with no surprises. Get
    a rider if you have to to make sure your equipment is covered no matter
    what!
    
    Mark

    Not that I agree with it, but one reason they may want to do it that
    way is to discourage fraud.
    
    I.E.  you can't view this policy as a way to replace your equpiment
    with newer stuff by filing a false claim.
    
    Basically, when you get ripped off, you get ripped off twice: once
    by the crooks, once by the insurance companies.
    
    However, I think anyone who doesn't have an Inland Marine policy on
    music equipment they use in a for-profit band is either ignorant or
    foolish or both.
    
    I have known too many people who lost everything and have seen how
    devastating that can be (as I can easily imagine).
    
    Folks... please... don't let this happen to you.   Talk to your
    insurance agent, don't presume this stuff is covered by your homeowners
    or renters policy.  If you accept money for playing music, chances are
    IT'S NOT COVERED!!!!!!
    
    Even if you don't accept money for playing music, if you have a fair
    amount of equipment... CHANCES ARE ITS NOT ALL COVERED (there are
    dollar limits).
    
    	db

    It may be because of the $ amount.  If the claim is under, say $2000,
    they may just cut you a check.  Mine was almost $10,000 going by book
    value.
    
    I know they try to discourage fraud, but their procedures punish the
    victims and force the victims to ponder fraud to get their full
    settlement.  For example, I thought of buying all the gear, sending
    them copies of my receipts, and then return everything to get the $ and
    buy what I want.  I know it wouldn't be right, and you probably won't
    find a dealer to go in on it with you, but it has crossed my mind.
    
    Mike

    
    	Can you get a music store to fill out a "bill of sale" for you
    	that looks like a receipt but is actually only an estimate of
    	what it would cost you to buy the items?
    
    	No money changes hands, no equipment changes hands, and the
    	insurance company sends you a check.  Then you rip up all the
    	"estimates" and throw them away.
    

re: .35
    
>    	Can you get a music store to fill out a "bill of sale" for you
>    	that looks like a receipt but is actually only an estimate of
>    	what it would cost you to buy the items?
>    
>    	No money changes hands, no equipment changes hands, and the
>    	insurance company sends you a check.  Then you rip up all the
>    	"estimates" and throw them away.
>    

It's very dangerous to lie to insurance companies, especially when the
claim is large enough to make it worth their while to send out an 
investigator.  If they catch you in a lie they can invalidate the entire 
claim.

Perhaps you should get a lawyer to read your policy and see if what
the insurance company is trying to do is valid.

    
    If the reason you're actually buying things is to 
    prove the value of your claim, that's a real
    drag.  You can prove what was stolen (I suppose 
    including its condition), and that it was within 
    your coverage, so all I'd thought you'd need to prove 
    replacement value would be a valuation from some kind 
    of authority, like a dealer, possibly in combination 
    with a published price range like the "blue book".  
    
    They might believe that appraisals are 
    more likely to be fraudulent than actual sales 
    prices.  But I sure didn't know they could
    _require_ you make a replacement purchase for 
    this purpose.  Especially as you suggest merely
    because your claim is "large".         
    
    If the reason that you're buying things is because
    the policy explicitly requires you to do this before you can 
    collect the full value, that strikes me as unfortunate, 
    but I don't know that that kind of requirement is 
    invalid or impermissible.  And then I guess you're stuck.  
    
    Dave 

Lying to an insurance company on a claim is usually considered fraud and can 
be something that gets you sent to prison.

Jim

    I wonder if it violates "the letter" of the policy to buy that
    stuff and then return it unopened?

    I don't see any problem with that, but what about
    any sales tax, shipping? Does the insurance cover
    that?  
    
    Dave
    

    Re: last 2
    
    That is probably legal, but look at the hassles and hoops you have to
    go through to get justice for the victim!  
    
    I'm a little more pleasant today.  The ruckus I've been stirring has
    brought compensation up from 50% to 80% so far.
    
    Mike

    Mike-
    
    Bravo!   Keep stirring that ruckus!  I'm rooting for you...
    
    /Steve

    > I'm a little more pleasant today.  The ruckus I've been stirring has
    > brought compensation up from 50% to 80% so far.
    
    Which begs the question:  "If they can go to 80% now, why not have done
    so in the first place?"  I am personally right back to the wall over
    this business of having to scream like a banshee to get "them" to do
    something they could have done all along.  If it's within their power
    to adjust the compensation, why should it be that you have to make a
    fuss to get them to do so?  Why not just do it?
    
    (Jeez, I sound like Pollyanna on Prozac :-(  )
    
    	Rick
    
    
    

    
    I view them kind of like car salesmen -- they don't want to give
    any more than they have to, and they're perfectly happy to screw
    a customer if they can get away with it. Just as some people pay
    too much for a car, I'm sure that a percentage of people are will-
    ing to settle insurance claims for less than they are entitled to.
    
    /Steve
    

    Just as an fyi, my insurance company is covering the remaining 20% of
    my claim after I submit receipts for the replacement items.  I think
    that's fair and it shows sometimes it is a good thing to rattle some
    cages ;-)
    
    Mike

    I read an article in "Living Blues" magazine about a guy that had
    a guitar stolen from a gig. He wrote to Vintage Guitar magazine and
    they provided the name of a guy that publishes a list of stolen
    instruments on the internet. Within a few hours of publishing the
    details about the stolen instrument, two independant guitar buyers
    reported spotting it. He ended up getting the guitar back 6 days
    after listing it. 
    
    For information call Rick Powell at 713-578-5050 and ask about his
    Website Stolen Guitar Registry. It can't hurt to try!
    
    Regards,
    Mark

	A quick check with Altavista came up with http://www.vvg.com as the
	URL for the Stolen Guitar Registry. Blues Access #24 has the story
	about the guy getting his axe back in 6 days. The URL for this issue
	is http://www.he.tdl.com/~blues/No_24/letters.html

Larry