Conference napalm::guitar

    The band I played in from '72 to '78 had acquired ownership of a
    complete PA system and a Ford Van thru "band financing".  Our Keyboard
    player was an IRS employee (field auditor...no kidding!) and we were
    incorporated, filing a legitmate tax return each year.  We depreciated
    all of our equipment on said tax return using the appropriate schedule,
    and when a player left the group (for ANY reason), he was reimbursed
    his contribution to the purchase based on the amount he put in and the
    current depreciated value of any equipment he helped buy.  Our
    personnel turnover in the group in that 6 years was low (3 original
    members, with 3 different bass players...why is it always bass players
    that turnover...8^)), so calculating buyouts was not difficult.  I
    can't imaging joining a group under the condition that I would lose my
    contribution to a group purchase if I left.......FWIW.
    
    Steve

    
    I own pieces of PA gear that I'll never see.  Prior bands bought the
    gear and then either dissolved, etc.  Somehow, the fair and equitable
    distribution thing never happened.  Usually, somebody in the band had
    an immediate need for the PA and promised the rest of us cash "soon." 
    Yuh.
    
    I'd advocate making a list of what you want and then having each member
    buy a component.  That way, everyone knows up front who owns what.  
    
    The best case scenario is having some band member with deep pockets buy
    the entire PA and let the band use it free.   Not too many
    philanthropic musicians around, though.
    
    Kevin
    

    The band I was in co-owned the PA. When some one left he got his share 
  back.

> The band I was in co-owned the PA. When some one left he got his share back.

Did a new member have to pay a share, if he was to join the band???

alan

Re:.-1

Requiring a buy in probably wouldn't be very attractive
to potential new band members, especially if the "share"
is big bucks. Looking at the example below, a new 
member joining would have to come up with $1250
to join. Talk about paying to play! ;^)

Seriously, IMHO, new members needn't buy into already
bought gear, only new additions. 

re: Getting your money out..

Getting the money out seems like it could be a problem. 
Consider the following example:


Let's say that the band has $5K invested in co-owned gear.
For a 4 person band, that's $1250 per member. If one
member leaves, that's a little over $400 that each 
remaining member must pay out to the departing
member. If two members leave the remaining 2 members
would have to pay out $1250 each! ($2500 total with is
2 shares). Granted not much a band left then.....;^)

(BTW, Is $5K a good number, is is much lower or higher?)

I guess my point is that very few musicians I know, 
especially the ones with families that could afford 
to pay out that kind of cash. 


-T

	What happens if the entire band splits up?  Seems like this would be 
	the worst case scenario.  Under this circumstance, it would seem like
	each member owning a component or piece of gear would make the most
	sense.  This way, there are no disputes.  On the other hand, if a 
	member left, he could either take the piece of gear with him or 
	receive payment from the band for it, which would start the mess all
	over again!  

    Quite messy ... I always bought my own stuff, and some PA gear.  But
    usually, I tried to buy something that I could use by itself.  One band
    I joined told me from the start that they were paying on a PA, and that
    all our gig money would go toward paying it off - after being
    reimbursed for our `expenses'.  After we got our`strings_picks_gas_etc'
    money, there was very little left to put toward the PA.  When I left
    the band, the creditors were hounding them pretty hard.  Gee, I hate
    that ...  ;^)
    
    Scary

    The reply in .1 was the best one yet.  He mentions *depreciation*.  So
    in Tom G's case, you really don't get back $1250, you get $1250 minus
    depreciation, which is 10% a year as the IRS looks at it.  After five
    years, you only get $625 back.  After ten years you get zip.
    
    							Brian

    
    	Own your own stuff.  If it's monitors you need, go out together
    	and pick 'em out but buy your own.  Try to purchase the items
    	logically (ie; buy the rack along with the mixer).  
    
    	When a member leaves, either sell it to the others or take it
    	with you.  This depreciation stuff... when it's yours, it's
    	worth what you can sell it for.
    
    	Never, ever co-own anything.  If you leave, take your cabinets
    	and go home.  Band breakups usually suck big time and the last
    	thing you want is a monetary tie, regardless of what side of
    	the fence you're on.
    
    	Tom
    

re:Depreciation

Ahh. I hadn't considered that. Still I don't think band
owned gear seems to be the way to go.

      
      This one hits home. I'm doing my last gig with CHEMISTRY after about
    three and a half years, including a six month break while I was with 
    another band. But since I own the sound system, I'm already getting
    asked about joining back into something right away. All I really look
    for is that everyone contributes to getting the band on the road
    equipment wise and works on the material.
      I've worked as a soundman with my system for one other band on a 
    couple of Fridays that we didn't have booked and i was getting asked 
    if I could do a few other bands, so that's another option. 
      The sound system has grown to be pretty good over time with
    improvements spread over the last few years. It scares me to think
    of buying the whole system in one shot. Over ten years it's not bad
    and I've made back a lot of the money and kept it all maintained well.
    
    							-B()()M-

	I own all of my own equipment, which includes a P.A. system (and
	lighting). I would never consider being a part owner of some one
	elses gear (especially since my gear is extreamly well maintained,
	and I find that group owned gear usually isn't). I suggest that 
	each member own their own gear (like buying thier own monitors - 
	if they don't, then they have nothing to complain about). This also
	means that they should own thier own microphone stands and instrument
	stands and amplifiers. A P.A. system isn't cheap, but easily abused
	or damaged. Sorry if this seems a bit stiff, but music is a business
	just like any other, if you want to be a mechanic, you supply your
	own tools (and check out speciality tools that the shop might
	own for special purposes).

	If someone sings, they need thier own microphone also. 

	Some clubs will provide the P.A. system and microphones. If you play
	at these sorts of places, then you don't need to worry about it.
	If you are like me, and you rarely play places that provide the
	P.A. system, then you have to be self sufficent. People tend to treat
	gear that they don't own entirely very poorly. 

	If I decide to use my gear for something other then my current band,
	I can, cause I own it.

	You can always make cabinets (this will really hold the cost down if
	you have the skills), and do a lot of creative cabling (I do both),
	but I draw the line at ownership. If you need it, then buy it
	yourself. How would you react to a plumber showing up at your house
	asking if he could borrow your tools to do his job? I'd say you'd
	probably wonder if this clown was competent.

							Jens

    Most definitely - coownership=problems!!!!
    
    If you need gear then you must divide the reponsibility to get it
    amongst yourselves, ie. you get the mixer and I'll get the bins. This
    is not an easy nor is it always an equitable thing. To make it more
    equitable, perhaps you can get creative and rent it back to the band.
    
    
    This is a tough nut, and there is no formula that works for all
    situations. But one formula that does apply universally is that
    coownership invites
    disaster/hardfeelings/misunderstandings/cheating/lying...
    
    Avoid it all by dividing reponsibility and ownership amongst yourselves
    as equitably as poosible at the front end of your band relationship.
    
    "sakman" 

    John,
    	This is a real sticky question. The ideal case is that "everybody"
    owns a piece and in order for anything to work...  everybody needs to
    bring that piece. Sure, if one person owned the PA outright then that's
    cool. If you blow a driver, or a horn (as in my band), the band has the
    "option" to kick into some gig money to get a new driver. It really
    shouldn't rest only on the poor slob who owns it. Common sense plays a
    big part here. 
    	If the band breaks up (as they all do sooner or later), then it's a
    clean break where every member takes the equipment that's theirs and
    all is good in the Kingdom Of La La. 
    	What if you built your own PA cabinets and used some of your
    drivers, but asked the band to chip in for materials (to build the
    cabinets) and spring also for horns? You've just put in weeks of your
    own time (certainly worth alot right there) building, designing, re-
    designing, adding x-overs and such....  What happens then? In my
    opinion, it's almost a wash and since everybody made money on those
    cabinets they should go to the builder, OR sell them and split the
    money.
   	Being the "hardware" guy in my band, I do my best to keep things
    running. If the keyboard player breaks the power switch on my amp
    during transit I get the part needed and fix it. Same goes for anything
    else. If I can do it and I find the time, I'll do it rather than the
    guys going to some high priced "I think I can fix it", (but it'll cost
    you anyway) shop.
    
    	I don't go into a band thinking "am I going to get screwed if we
    split up and who'll get this and that". We're all adults in my band
    and have a very good understanding of each other. We work things out
    fairly I think.
    
    
    		Good luck John,
    				Fred

    I have been through a similar experience with a band about 10 years
    ago. When I left the band, I had about $400 invested in the PA. The
    band was planning to stay together and wanted me to forfeit my share
    of the equipment because I was leaving....wrong !!
    
    Since that time, I resolved to assemble my own system. I now own
    a pretty good working system consisting of a mixer, eq, power amp,
    and monitor speakers. I'd like to add a set of mains (speakers and
    power amp), but I really can't justify it at this point. If I need
    a bigger system for a gig, I could always rent. 
    
    My suggestion for a band starting out that needs a complete system
    is to have everyone agree to buy one piece of equipment. Naturally
    that person would own the equipment that he/she bought. Everyone
    should be willing to contribute something to the cause. Keep in mind
    who provides the practice space and the trucks/vehicles used to haul
    all of the equipment around. It seems like in every band situation
    there is one person that bears 90% of the burden, and everyone else
    takes that person for granted. 
    
    One more suggestion regarding PA systems. Keep it simple. I have worked
    with simple systems with a powered mixer and two speakers, as well as
    elaborate systems with racks of separate components. A powered mixer
    is much easier to transport, setup and get good sound from. My system
    generally stays in my studio all of the time. When my band plays out,
    we use a TOA powered mixer that our rhythm player owns. This works
    out great. Anything more than that would be overkill in the small 
    rooms we play.
    
    Mark
    

      
      In the first working club band I was in we naively pulled all
    our gig income and bought band equipment. The plan was to sell 
    and divide the money when (and if) we brake up. As soon as we
    did two members quickly formed another band and "BORROWED" the
    P.A. promising that they were trying to sell it as they used it.
    (What a joke!) What followed was a year of passing pieces amongst
    each other until one guy eventually sold everything and pocketed 
    the money. The moral of my story is obvious.
    
      Luckily, we were in it for the music at the time and not the
    money. So, for me at least, my memories of the band were
    positive, despite the mess.