Conference napalm::guitar

    Tab for stuff like that is totally useless to me, other then for it's 
    curiosity value, since I cannot and probably will never be able to play
    most of those type songs.  That's the same problem I have with a lot of
    the tab they publish in GFTPM.  Why would I bother to read it and go
    through the frustration of trying to learn it when I know up from that
    I will never be able to play it physically?

    What use would someone like me have for a EJ, Satch, Vai, Morse,
    Holdsworth, etc music book?  I'll never be able to play any of it.  It
    also bugs me to hear people attempting to play stuff they aren't
    capable of playing and butcher it.  I never want to inflict my poor
    rendition of a good song on someone like that!  (I do a *fine* job of
    inflicting my blasphemous versions of the songs I think I *can* play on
    people!)

    Greg

    
    
    I don't ever hope to learn many of these tunes note-for-note, but I get
    a lot of insight trying to play the interesting bits and pieces.  Kind
    of like the practical vs. the theoretical...  It's also nice to have
    when you're trying to figure out a song.
    
    

    Well if you ask me, the EJ tune "Trademark" has a lot more detail in it
    than the Hal Leonard version (and it isn't the Easy Guitar version
    either).  Hal's version is easier to play ;-)
    
    I don't have other songs in tab that I could compare, but it looks like
    the people at GFTPM are perfectionists also.
    
    Mike

Oh, a couple of comments......

On transcriptions and tab:

   Most of the transcriptions that I've actually spent time with and learned
   have been very accurate.  That is, the music seems to be notated
   correctly.  Beyond a few MOOs, like chord naming, I've rarely found an
   error.  (There *is* an error in the EJ songbook on that opening
   fire-arrow lick to Cliffs of Dover, however).

   My complaint about transcriptions is that the TAB is usually inaccurate
   and sometimes down right silly.  I don't mean that the notes indicated by
   the TAB are different than the actual music indicates, though this
   sometimes happens.  I mean the positions (and position shifts) these
   transcriptionists think are appropriate can many times make the phrase,
   line, or song impossible to play.   I don't think I've ever played a song
   the way it is tabbed out.  

   Although I'm sure it's not always practical (or even possible), I'd sure
   appreciate it if the TAB reflected *how* the author of the piece plays
   the thing.  You can learn a lot by playing a phrase the way an
   accomplished player does.  When you're learning, *how* it is played is at
   least as important as *what* is played. I know some TAB books go to great
   lengths to ensure this.   However, the EJ songbook is the absolute worst. 
   They even transposed two or three songs to "make it easier to play",
   which is a crock anyway because the minor conveniences that changing the
   key gives to these songs isn't going to make them more playable.  All
   they accomplished was to make the thing sound funny...


>>On how good am I going to get:

   Don't know.   I get better regularly.  I'm a better player now than I was
   a year ago and I've been able to say that every year.  Is the rate of
   change fast enough that I'll be as good as EJ before I'm dead?  Don't
   know.

steve

    We bass players have to suffer with a lack of transcriptions, but I
    work through some here and there.  
    
    The main advantage to using transcriptions *for me* is that they can
    help me pick out licks and fingerings that *I* can't get by ear.  Even a
    simple blues tune like "Albert's Alley" by Albert Collins (bass
    courtesy of the great Johnny B. Gayden) has been worth working through,
    as it has showed me how Johnny creates some of his killer lines without
    resorting to tiresome blues cliches.
    
    A good example of a guy I'll never be able to play like is James
    Jamerson, but the Dr. Licks book/tape package that takes apart a couple
    of dozen classic Motown tunes he played on has been a real eye-opener.
    
    I usually work on small sections, turnarounds, little licks that I
    hear and like but can't figure out, etc.  
    
    						Brian

    
    I think transcriptions/tablature are quite valuable.  I've been
    trying to learn "Trademark" by EJ from GFTPM, and I now have the
    first couple o' bars in my head, but it hasn't quite reached my
    fingers....
    
    I have to admit that I'm a bit frustrated.  It seems far more dif-
    ficult than it soundsed, and I honestly don't know if I'd ever 
    consider myself actually "able to play" this song.  But I'm cer-
    tainly being exposed to a style that would've taken me quite a bit
    longer to catch onto if I'd just tried to learn it all by ear.
    
    With someone like EJ you might be able to pick out the melody, but
    you're missing a lot (concerning his style) if you don't add at least
    SOME of the subtleties in there (like cake with no icing?).
    
    I think if you work hard enough studying a certain guitarist you can
    eventually begin to play more or less like them.  Then the next time
    you try to learn one of their tunes, you know more or less what to
    look for and you don't have to try a lot of chord variations that 
    you *know* he'd never play.  For me, in my tiny little musical 
    universe, learning to play a tune by EJ is like learning to communicate
    with alien beings.  The tablature becomes invaluable (unless you have
    a good teacher).
    
    guy

    It takes a big investment in time, something a lot of us family men
    don't have much of.  I *WANT* to get there, but am not able to because
    of other priorities.  The past few weeks, I've been seriously thinking
    about hanging it up.
    
    I've always had the bad habit of just picking out the parts I liked and
    blew off the rest.
    
    Mike 

    
    You know, if you guys start out with an (substitute
    desired guitar idol's name here) tune, you're bound to experience a
    little frustration - you're likely tackling the best work of a guitar
    master.  There's nothing wrong with that, just temper your
    expectations.
    
    My personal approach is to start with the roots our current crop of
    gods began with: Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, etc...  I don't
    necessarily want to play like any of these guys, but there's a
    collective guitar consciousness to tap into with this stuff...
    

I always sound so damned serious when I write in here, 
but a few comments. 

This interested me because I happen to like Eric Johnson
a lot. I think transcriptions are great. They save a lot
of time. They weren't around 20 years ago when I was trying
to figure out Hendrix tunes, or Doc Watson tunes by ear.
I'd work on something for a week and finally figure out 
it was in a different tuning. If you've got that on the
page up front...

Steve, which songs are transposed to different keys? I've got 
that EJ book and I don't remember that. Do they specify that? 
I'll have to look at it tonight. I've only really looked at 
East Wes, Trademark, and Cliffs of Dover. Only really worked 
on Cliffs of Dover.

The book seemed pretty accurate from what I've seen so far. 
Also, the transcription of Cliffs of Dover in GFTPM is by 
the same person as the Hal Leonard book so I assumed they 
were identical. 

Anyway, on the value of complex music... you should choose 
music that's within your abilities if you want to play it in 
front of an audience. If you want to learn bits and pieces of 
difficult songs for your own enjoyment and to push yourself a 
bit that's fine too; but choose music you can play so you feel 
you're getting somewhere, and take the time to see it through 
and play it well. 

I've got lots of music that's beyond my abilities. 
I look at some of it now and then, I really work on some of it, 
and some of it doesn't get looked at at all. Some stuff I have 
vowed I'll eventually play. Some stuff I've worked for for 
years and may never get.

If you're going to work on something like cliffs of dover, 
you have to realize you're not going to do it in 20 minutes, 
or a week, or a month. You have to have the discipline to stick 
with it for awhile. It's worth it to work on something that will 
take longer than 1 night to learn.

I've worked on that thing off and on for the last few months. 
I've got it memorized and can play it all the way through. 
I can't play the fast stuff as fast as he does, and I can't 
seem to get those pinch harmonics. He seems to pull them out 
anywhere at will. I'll let you know in about 6 months if I'll 
ever play it in front of anyone. (except friends)

It certainly helps to read music. I wouldn't attempt to 
figure this out by ear; too fast and complex. Dump the tab and 
just learn how to read music. It will save you a lot of time.

Mike, don't give up! Hang in there. There's nothing like 
playing the guitar. I'm also in the Married-kids-house-etc club 
and finding time to practice is hard. But ask yourself, why are 
you playing? Enjoyment, money, expression, art, because you have 
to? Keep at it.

Bob C.

>Steve, which songs are transposed to different keys? I've got 
>that EJ book and I don't remember that. Do they specify that? 
>I'll have to look at it tonight. I've only really looked at 
    
    Desert Rose and another song are taken down to Ab.  Pretty bogus if you
    ask me.
    
    Mike

Yeah, Deasert Rose is one for sure.  I'll try to remember to look through the
book tonight and find the other(s).  (I seem to remember that there are
three...) They actually tell you they've done it in a little "editor's note" on
the first page of the transcription.  I discovered it because I had learned most
of deasert rose by ear and wanted to look at a transcription of a couple of the
really fast difficult parts to help me along.  I was annoyed when I had to first
transpose the thing back into the original key before learning it.  Of course, I
then had to toss the "recommended" fingerings....:) etc, etc, etc.

I agree with someone's (Bob's?) previous comment about learning to read and
tossing the tab.  However, I wouldn't toss the tab if it actually showed the
positions used by the author.   I would say that studying that could be
invaluable.  Where someone plays something has a lot to do with how it sounds
and how difficult it is to play. I suspect EJ is one who sometimes plays
something using a difficult fingering because it sounds better (to him) than a
more conventional fingering.

steve

The songs in the EJ songbook that are transposed are Desert Rose and Soulful
Terrain.  The editor's note says they are transposed to make it easier to read.
That's worse than I thought.  They *didn't* try to make it easier to play, just
easier to read!  Then they tell you that you should retune your guitar if you
want it to sound like the original.... shheesssshhhh..!

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but I don't appreciate them
transposing the tunes and I don't buy their reasoning for it.   What probably
happened is that the transcriptionist turned the thing in, in the wrong key, and
nobody noticed it until it was too close to press time to change.  So they threw
in this "we're doing it for your own good" junk.

Ok, I'm done.  No more pi**ing about this from me.

steve

    So as in the case of Desert Rose, they have it in A and they say Eric
    does it in Ab.  One of these days, I'll probably transpose it, how
    knows, it might even be easier to play ;-)
    
    Mike

    
    	When I buy TAB stuff, I look for a Publisher and/or author 
    	that I've had good luck with.  It is very tempting to buy
    	TAB of music you like and not consider the author's ability
    	or the Publisher's give-a-shit factor.  I have had good with
    	CPP/Belwin Axx Traxx (T-birds, Robert Cray).
    
    	As far as TAB goes, I find it very useful for picking up new
    	licks.  Just being able to sound close is great for a rank
    	beginner like myself.  I get excited when my wife says "Hey, 
    	is that ____ you're playing?"  
    	"Why yes Dear, that *is* ____ I'm playing"
    
    	yukety yuk

    Mike, Steve,
    
    I looked at my book last night, and I have to disagree with you 
    on those EJ songs. I think you're missing the point. Regardless of 
    how EJ tunes his guitar the songs are in A and G (or whatever) 
    not in the flat keys.
    
    If I'm learning something by ear, I tune to the recording
    and learn it, then retune later. I would never learn
    desert rose in Ab, and it's not meant to be played in Ab.
    
    When I saw SRV play, he was playing E and A chords etc.,
    but they actually sounded Eb, Ab etc. But I wouldn't
    say he was playing in Eb or Ab, or I wouldn't try to
    learn his stuff in Eb or Ab. 
    
    EJ probably tuned down on those to make the vocal parts
    stay within his vocal range. I think they were absolutely
    correct to transcribe the songs in those keys and not the
    flat ones. And I think it's great that they put a note in 
    to tell you exactly what they did and why. I've got lots of 
    difficult music that has no explanations, notes, fingerings- 
    nothing. I think the book is good. I'd never be able to
    approach any of that stuff without it.
    
    Bob
    
    

>                             -< Who plays in Ab? >-
    
    Exactly my thoughts when I first saw the key signature!  They do some
    hymns at my church with that key signature, but they sound like they're
    actually done in the relative minor.
    
    Re: Pat and his wife
    
    Man does that hit home!  Doesn't it make you psyched when they say
    that! ;-)
    
    Mike

>>  Regardless of how EJ tunes his guitar the songs are in A and G (or
>>  whatever) not in the flat keys.
    
    Well, I dunno about that.... It is completely possible that you're
    right and EJ retuned his guitar for those songs (I hadn't even
    considered that -- he doesn't strike me as the type who would do that,
    he seems like a purist). If that's the case, then I agree that
    transposing the thing is probably the correct thing for the
    transcriptionist to do.

    However, the editor doesn't say that's the reason for the
    transposition.  The reason given is so that its easier to read - not
    that Eric fingers it in A and used a tuned-down guitar.  I have seen
    this explanation given on other transcriptions and that's fine and
    appropriate.

    Unless there's a give away, like Eb (below low E) or a very obvious
    ringing open string, you don't know if he's retuned or not -- in other
    words, you don't *know* if the songs are in A or G or X. (I haven't
    gone back through those songs looking for such a beast, so it may
    exist).

    I believe he plays the songs in the flat keys.  Several months ago, I
    rented the EJ video.  In it, I seem to remember that he plays part of
    Soulful Terrain.  I remember getting all worked up about it (and that
    songbook) because he was not playing the part in the same key.  I don't
    have the video so I can't go back and verify the above, but it sticks
    in my mind fairly strongly.  I don't believe I've misinterpreted the
    reason for the transposition.

    All of the above aside, I agree the book has accurate transcriptions
    and it is helpful.  I felt the transposition was inappropriate, that's
    all.  If EJ actually plays these using "A" or "G" fingerings, then my
    tirade is unjustified.  But, I think that is yet to be determined.

    steve

>    Well, I dunno about that.... It is completely possible that you're
>    right and EJ retuned his guitar for those songs (I hadn't even
>    considered that -- he doesn't strike me as the type who would do that,
>    he seems like a purist). If that's the case, then I agree that
    
    Well I saw him do it live and on the ACL shows and he never retuned or
    changed guitars for those songs.  Either he uses standard tuning or
    does everything in an Ab tuning ;-)
    
    Mike

    ...or he plays them in a different key live then on the record.

	RE: .17
    
	(I play in flat keys too, but Ab and Gb are unusual ones
	for guitar.)

	I owe you guys an apology.
	I don't know where my brain was when I looked at my book,
	but I brought it to work with me today and you're
	absolutely right. The editors note is as follows:


	Editors note:Eric plays this song in the key of Ab but, to 
		     make it easier to read, we have written it out 
		     in the key of A. If you tune your guitar down a
	             half-step as suggested, you will sound in the same 
		     key as the original recording.


	When I read that the other night, I could have sworn it said
	EJ tunes down a half step. Somebody must have changed it
	during the night. ;)

	They should have written it out in Ab like he wrote it, and
	the other one in Gb. It's funny that "Zap", the song before 
	"Soulful terrain" has 4 flats (Starts in Ab but looks like Fm, 
	I don't know these tunes) and they didn't transpose that to 
	3 sharps. 

	Bob

    Fortunately, there aren't many ex-piano players like him ;-)
    
    Mike

Well, just to put the thing to rest....

I dug up a video of Eric playing on Austin City Limits.  In it, he plays Desert
Rose.  He does indeed play it (and finger it) in Ab (or was it Gb... -- doesn't
matter).  His guitar is in standard A=440 tuning.

I stand by my original posting -- transposing those songs was inappropriate.

re: Bob ---  No appology needed.  Your questions made me go back and make sure I
had my facts right.  Besides, I got to watch that ACL show again and I just
can't get over how Eric plays...  He is soooo inspiring..

steve

It seems to me that when you attempt to express on paper what someone
has played you always have to make some compromises.  That's why 
legit (read classical) pieces have room for interpretation - and that's
why you need to listen to the recording of a pop chart to ensure that
the tab/chart is correct.  This is not just to get the notes, but 
is to get the nuance of the piece right.

Will you ever be able to play like E.J.? Maybe not, but who cares?  This
isn't a competition with anyone else - it's just to see how good YOU can
get.  The charts are absolutely imperative to keep your study progressing
as fast as possible.  Why sit down with a new record and first be 
required to lift the transcription before you can begin to learn the 
music.  If someone else has done that for me I'll just use it.  It's
another tool - just like the half speed recorder and the music theory
book.  Use all of the tools at your disposal.