Conference napalm::guitar

    I've always used pre-written set lists as the basic approach. If you
    get a request for a song you know, change the sets a little, if you've
    already played that song, do it over and say it was a request.
    
    We tried to set our sets up with a barnburner to open, another fast
    one, slow by the 4th or 5th song then bring it up again and take a
    break after another barnburner. Avioding 2-3 in a row in the same key
    or with the sam basic rhythm/feel (this is hard in a blues band unless
    you know lots of tunes!).
    
    After a while you should have several sets of set lists, arranged
    differently for different crouds/clubs. It gets easier after that.
    Without set lists it ends up too much like a dead concert, lots of
    space between songs. Your audience gets bored and worse, they leave the
    dance floor.
    
    dbii

    You've got 5 seconds from th eend of one song to the start of another.
    Do anything that keeps it below that.
    
    Have a set list. Stick to it. When I hear someone say "spontaneity" I
    get this vision of a band wandering aimlessly, pleasing themselves.
    After a while you get to know which songs go over well in which set,
    which tunes lend themselves to seques, etc. Arrange one set after
    the last one, that way you can "read the room" and taylor to the crowd.
    
    Requests can always be worked into the next set. I hate it when the
    band says "We got a request for {whatever}, and as soon as the
    guitarist tunes the guitar he uses on that tune we'll fo it." followed
    by more mindless chatter. ("Shut up and play yer guitar!")
    
    Edd
    
    

    I would think that the dead time between songs does more to kill
    spontaneity than anything else.  Funny how folks *on* the bandstand
    have different ideas about what's cool than the audience.
    
    I swear by set lists, used them for years.  Like dbii, I've always
    tried to position real strong stuff at each end of the set and change
    keys for every song.  When there are multiple singers, I like to avoid
    two in a row by the same vocalist as well.  If there are arguments over
    the merits of a particular set list, have the duty of making opne up
    rotate through the band members.  
    
    As far as spontaneity, my band has lots of jammers sitting in and we
    make on the fly adjustments to the set list all the time, but after the
    jamming is over, we get right back to the list.
    
    						Brian

    Our drummer makes up set lists for each place based on, I presume,
    his impressions of both the clientele and the contact (the person
    that booked you).
    
    However, the set lists are really "guidelines" - you HAVE to be
    flexible.  You don't play a slow song if it looks like people want
    to "shake" and you don't play "Old Time Rock n Roll" if people
    want to slow dance.
    
    We've now played enough gigs with each other that we can be flexible.
    It's not uncommon for one of us to just break into a song and have
    the rest of us come in immediately.
    
    So the summary is: use set lists but be flexible.

    My experience ....
    
    Have a set list, and stick to it !  If you get a request and it's from
    a) someone who bought the band a round of drinks, or, b) from a sweet
    little honey, sure, work it in.  
    
    I always liked have 3 different set lists that we could rotate - kept us
    and our diehard followers awake.  
    
    We always started each set with a couple hot tunes.  One band I was in
    always put the `easy listening' tunes in the first set - by the time it
    was over, people were yawning (seriously).  You figure, most gigs start
    around  9 or 10.  The crowd has been drinking probably since 7 or so,
    they're ready to PARTY, not go to sleep.  So if you knock 'em out of
    their chair during the first 15 minutes of the gig, you've got friends
    for life.
    
    As for `dead time' between songs, I suggest you tape a gig and then go
    back and time the pauses - you'll be surpised at how long they really
    are.  A lot of bands will take a drink after each song, etc.  I know
    singers need a drink now and then, but you have to remember even though
    it's a blast to play, it's also a job.  Drink like a fish during breaks
    if you have to ...  8^)
    
    Scary

    
    re: dead time - here's my old solution... and you need a set list.
    
    Have the drummer start the song IMMEDIATELY after the previous tune.
    Folks dance to the beat so keep it going.  Wait for the drummer to
    "roll" the rest of the band in (shouldn't take more than a measure
    or so).  This works great on the real cookin' tunes!!
    
    This way, the music is non-stop, no need to work out segues between
    tunes, and it "appears" to be a worked out, professional performance.
    
    Tom
    

    Good advise -1. It really builds momentum. But I wouldn't put it all on
    the drummer's shoulders. Also, i'd break for a minute after the 3rd tune
    and talk a bit to the crowd. It'll be easier for the band to remember
    small suites of songs than one long string, too. And make sure that last
    bunch is a killer!

Seems to me that dead time between toons can be the death of a band.
In my humble opinion, standing around on stage looks amatuer - 
garage band.

We (HardBall) will have several sets made up before hand.  Our first set is
always a burner, with lots of high recognition heavy stuff (VanHalen, Scorpions,
GunsNRoses, LA Guns etc).  After the first set, we look at what we feel is
gonna blow the crowd away the next set and use that set list.  This gives
us time to try to read the crowd.  All these set lists are rehearsed.  We 
say the same kinds of things between certain songse etc...

Another thing that we find to be helpful is to put comments on the set list,
reminding us of who talks when, and what the might say.  For instance, we do
a medley of Judas Priest songs...Everytime we go to play that, I always say 
that we love Priest in the morning, and we feel that Rob Halford should have
his picture on the Wheaties box...  The set lists are all stubbed with 
"jc - wheaties".  Just in case I forget.  Also, when this bullet comes up,
I try to start talking immediately, and the others go "hide" by their rigs,
swill water, light up a smoke, whatever.

Dead time is bad, bad, bad...

jc

    Good work !  It's like anything else, if you're gonna do the job, you
    have to `work' the part.  You have to treat a hole_in_the_wall like it
    was a stadium if you ever expect to get to the stadium.  Nothing takes
    the place of doing your homework.  Bands that always seem to `jam', end
    up jamming forever ...
    
    Scary

    As I've thought many times but never written: This notesfile is great!
    I've extracted up to this point and will take the text to rehearsal
    tonight...tune in tomorrow to see what kind of success I have.
    
    Thanks guys!
    Johnny Jupiter

    >You have to treat a hole_in_the_wall like it
    >was a stadium if you ever expect to get to the stadium.

    AMEN! Nothing's worse than a bandwith an attitude about the venue
    they're in. Even if there's just 3 people, if you can't perform for 'em
    you don't deserve a better gig. If you don't put your heart into it,
    it's just 3 more people that you've eliminated from joining your
    following. And one key to giving people a good show despite there
    numbers is a well structured set.
    

    One of my bands played a tiny club one night to about 6 people.  We
    were all in a good mood, so we decided to really put on a show for 'em.
    Turned out, one of 'em was a bartender at another club and went to work
    the next night RAVING about us ... the club called US to set up a gig.
    
    Scary

    
    
    	I've got to agree Johnny, as a person just getting close to putting
    his first band together, this topic is priceless... Hell where else
    except the local music store can one ask tough questions about playing
    in clubs and get answers from folks who have been doing it for years! 
    We should condense this notesfile into a book (awright, awright Mr.
    Moderator, jest kidding about that little ole ownership problem) but..
    if it were possible, I'd volunteer to edit the sucker! 
    
    
    Thanks from me too, fellers,
    Gree Vee King
    
    	Hey, Jay T. thanks for sending me that Ampeg stuff... The original
    stuff was truly appreciated...

I talked about my band's setlist briefly in another recent topic, but I'll
put in another $.02 here......

First off, I agree with what others have said - a setlist is a REQUIREMENT!
(Unless you're the Grateful Dead...... 8^).  My band has clearly written
out set lists that we try and change very little as the night goes on. 

Its purposely arranged to build up as the night goes on; the first set is
filled with more listening-oriented songs (REM, Warren Zevon, "Mack The
Knife", "Hot ROd Linclon", etc.), as most people won't dance then. The second 
set then gets more uptempo, trying to get the people in the mood to dance,
sorta cajoling them onto the dance floor. Then the third set is the "killer
dance set", which is *guaranteed* to have them dancing for a full hour (all
those songs that musicians hate but people love, like "Taking Care of 
Business" and "What I Like About You", etc.). 

Early on, there might be more breaks in between songs, as I talk a little bit,
say the band's name a few times so it might sink in, introduce the band 
members if they take an extended solo ("Cocaine", etc.). We'll also take
requests at this point, as it won't really screw up any 'flow' we're trying
to create. (Although if its a song we want to play later, we'll tell them
that we'll play it in a little bit, we won't do it right then.) 

As the night gets later, and the dance floor fills up, its important to go
directly from one song into another - do NOT give them the chance to leave
the dance floor!!! If they're out dancing, they're having a good time - 
which means they'll stick around and drink more (making the club owner happy) 
and they'll come back and see you (making the club owner and YOU happy).

Is there some spontoneity lost? I guess so, but the way we work, we're not
there to entertain ourselves, we're there to entertain others. And not just
the One, but the Many. So we might be willing to not take a request for a
song we already did, if we don't think we should. One thing to try and do
is steer people into requesting another song that you already have upcoming - 
ie. "We already played that, but who else do you like? How about some 
Clapton?" etc.....

Just some ramblings.....

alan

>    (all those songs that musicians hate but people love, like "Taking Care
>    of  Business" and "What I Like About You", etc.).                          
    
    Not sure I qualify as a "musician", but I *like* "What I Like About
    You" (and I like playing it).
    
    gh

    re: .8 (Rackmaster Coop)
    
    > Everytime we go to play that, I always say that we love Priest in the
    > morning, and we feel that Rob Halford should have his picture on the
    > Wheaties box...  The set lists are all stubbed with  "jc - wheaties". 
    > Just in case I forget.
    
    The only way I would say the same thing everytime is if I thought
    no one ever came back to see the band a second time. 
    
    ;-)  ;-)  ;-)
    
    I mean, don't you worry about your most loyal fans reacting to that
    with a "same old shit" type reaction?
    
    I'm not the front-man in our band, but our front-people (the singer
    Heather and the inimitable Fred Abatelli) are always VERY spontaneous
    and I think people like that.

>    We  say the same kinds of things between certain songse etc...
>
>    Another thing that we find to be helpful is to put comments on the set
>    list, reminding us of who talks when, and what the might say. 
    
    Yeah, how CONTRIVED Jeff!
    
    gh

    'scuze me could you direct me the pose_cues list note??? 

    That was one thing cool about Peasant Kings/Jam Vac...Con was 
    totally off the cuff about his raps to the audience, and you
    never knew WHAT he was going to say next?!!
    
    ;^)

    Hey Coop, maybe you guys can hire me as the cue card holder ;-)

    Hey Mikey, howcum you have MY name and DTN in your p-name?  You don't
    think Coop would be taken in to thinking I wrote that THAT easily do
    ya?  
    
    He *knows* my p-name's ususally don't make that much sense...
    
    gh

    I couldn't think of a decent p_n!

    re: .19 
    
    Yeah Doug froma LA EAST was famous for some pretty wierd comments
    between songs at times... I can remember one night where the sound man
    had both his wife and girl friend in the audience, and all was quite
    tense Doug announces "we're gonna do a song, ah two tickets to ah
    paradise, ah kinda like you eh Skip?" the band was rolling...
    
    Even so, we used setlists :-)
    
    dbii

Yeah, *contrived*.  :)

Well, I don't say it ALL the time...  In fact I've only said it a few times.
The point is though, we find it useful to make notes to ourselves.  I always 
say something that I hope is catchy...

When I'm spontaneous, I'm rude, crude and obnoxious...Of course, some places
we play want that... :)

My most recent thing to say will be <insert_drano_induced_vomit_voice>
"Are you f***ers ready for some METALLICA!!"

Heh-heh-heh.
jc

    So what'd ya play ?   8^)
    
    Scary

    
    
    Well, I guess I am getting old (37), but my wife and I left a club for that
    exact reason. But there were more than just those few words.  The next
    statement was .." We love Houston the most because we have F***ed more
    women here than anywhere else. This was a club that is just short of a
    concert hall, one that brings major on the rise acts.   
    
    Flam on
    
    I feel there is a place and time for trash mouth (and I am truely not a
    saint) but a public gathering with a P.A. is just not cool.  Let the music 
    speak for itself and if that's not good enough, Get Off The Stage. 
    
    Flame off.
    
    Pc  8^)  
                                                          

    Re: -1
    
    I'm a lot younger than you, but I agree with ya!

    
    re:-2  Count me in - hope you change your mind, Coop!
    
    I cringed when I read it.
    
    So, what happened with the noter who was going to bring the replies
    to his band practice ?  
    
    

    Tom,
    
    I overwhelmed them with data...I gave each guy a copy of the first ten
    replies, which pretty much stated unanimously: Play arranged sets. Last
    night I spent about an hour with the set list, arranging tonight's
    show.  When we hit the stage, there will be four copies in 14pt bold
    Courier of four sets of material.
    
    Basically, it was a "just do it" approach.  The experiment continues...
    I'll let you know how it worked on Monday.
    
    Regards,
    Johnny Jupiter

    >I cringed when I read it.
    
    Why?  Becuase it didn't contain any Beatles, or they don't wear tuxedos?

    
    Screaming swearwords is juvenile, in my opinion.  But it bothered
    me in high school too when the f word was used as the only adjective
    in some people's vocabulary.
    
    And what the f*** do the Beatles or tuxedos have to do with it?
    
    

    >Screaming swearwords is juvenile, in my opinion.
    >
    >And what the f***
    
    Now if THAT isn't a contradiction, I donno...

    
    Buck, give me a break - it was used to make a sarcastic point.
    
    Now, about the Beatles and tux's ?
    

    
    	Sorry for contributing to the rathole but I believe that in the
    	right place and used *sparingly* so called 'swear' words can add
    	an extra punch and help get people in right mood (in the case of
    	a band chatting) or even in lyrics or normal conversation help get
    	a point across with more feeling than could be done with 'safe'
    	expletives.
    
    	J

	re: -.1

	After 6 beers, you're f***ing-A right!  

	Sparingly, of course...

    I agree with -2 in the fact that if I were introducing a METALLICA
    tune to a hard-rock listening audience, I would gear the inrto as
    the band (Metallica) would (who FYI usually say something to the
    tune of "You wanna hear some new s...?"  Now, if Coops band was 
    playing Milli Vanilli, the same intro wouldn't float.

    Well, from a monetary standpoint,
    
    I worked in clubs for many years, playing and bartending.  The most
    successful club I was ever associated with would not rehire a band that
    used explicatives.  He claimed that he lost revenue from drink
    sales if folks left...and some would not return to a repeat concert if
    they knew who was playing. He prided himself in always having a full
    house....right to the fire marshall limit...and I think he owned the
    fire marshall.... and the D.A.
    
    Sorry I started this rathole. Let's end it here.
    Pc
     

    re:  Coop playing Milli Vanilli.....scary.........very scary, indeed!
    
    
    as a matter of fact, Milli Vanilli is scary period  8^)
    
    Stevo

    Enough of the scary (tm)/Milli Vanilli comparisons ...
    
    I can't dance ....
    
    Scary (... you know it's true ...  8^)

Flame-on:

It may not suit your tastes, but then again, I doubt you'll be into hangin'
out watching a bunch of long-hairs thrash out Guns N Roses and Slaughter 
either.

FWIW, after four sets of listening to the crowd scream "METALLICA !!  
METALLICA !!" all damn night, the reaction from the crowd when "Are 
you f***ers ready for some  Metallica!" is nearly as delightful to 
the club owner as jingling of the cash register drawer.  (Gee, what 
a run-on-sentence !).


As the popularity of Metallica increases (their latest album went platinum
VERY shortly after it shipped),  even old farts who don't like "expletives
on stage" are going to stay around to watch a band cover a song thats #1 
on the Billboard album chart.  

I might agree that swearing is rather immature.  However, I'm not in the 
business of being mature.  I'm in the business (part time) of entertaining 
a crowd.  

Flame off...

You sound like my mother.
:)

Oh, and to contribute to the topic at hand...

If you play Enter Sandman, or any Metallica live, I'd highly recommend
that you play it toward the end of the night.  Makes for a real cool ending
to a long night of rockin', when the crowd goes nutty !!

jc

    Yeah, put yer Black Flag material at the end of the set too. 
    Guaranteed to clear the dance floor.
    
    Greg (who's cleared a dance floor playing Black Flag...)

    re last couple dozen replies:

    ahhh...I am truly lost for words. But I'm not quite sure what the
    slam against the Beatles was about in the middle of it all. Care to
    explain that, Buck? I'm all ears.

    -1
    
    Huh?
    
    What slam?!  The Beatles statement was merely trying to say that I felt
    people were judging Jeff's band as being a band concerned more with
    SHOWMANSHIP than musicality by playing Metallica tunes and prefacing
    them with obscenities.

    Re: Profanity
    
    Of course Metallica fans wouldn't go to a club where profanity isn't
    the standard ;-)

    
    re: Beatles slam - yeah sure, Buck!
    
    It was a slam against me and my old band for playing tunes by groups
    like the Beatles and, God forbid, stooping even lower by being
    dressed in tux's besides!
    
    Yes, there's a big difference between our target audience and Coop's
    and I can see his point because of his target audience.  But I do
    remember comments about DECjam swearing so I'm not the only one out
    there who doesn't, let's say "appreciate it".  Sorry about agreeing
    with them.  Btw, I do use the infamous F word - just not on stage.
    
    Hopefully, my suggestion about drumming between tunes contributed
    to this topic.
    
    Tennessee Tuxedo
    

    OH, now I'm slamming Tom's old band, huh?  I never even saw them play!!
    
    Buck, who loves how you people perceive my postings

FWIW - I've played my share of Beatles covers...  :)

Always dedicated "I Saw Her Standing There" to "Mister Jamez Hetfield".
People just stared.  :)

jc (Who thinks Black Flag would be a good 4th set toon)

PS - Thanks Buck!

    If they don't go with the idea of an organized setlist, maybe they
    would go along with grouping 3 to 5 tunes together. At least that
    way you'd have less dead air between songs. Picking tunes on the fly
    is good for keeping the rest of the band in check and paying attention,
    but grouping is good too.
    
    			Good luck John,
    					Fred

    
    In re: to your question. I play in a band here in Colorado Springs.
    We just tried something new this last weekend at one of our local
    clubs. Try doing 3 song segways and then talk to the crowd. I think
    the crowd is more interested in hearing more music than talk because
    it worked out very well and it also is very much more professional.
    To much dead time will bore the crowd to death. Time to tighten up.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    A friend's band has been doing an interesting set arrangement lately. 
    They play the first set the normal length (45-50 min), then the next
    two sets are very long, like an hour and half or so, with a pretty
    short break between them (10 min).  
    
    What seems to happen is that they keep the dance floor full longer and
    less people leave between sets then when they played the standard 4 45
    minute sets.
    
    Seems like a good idea to me, since with a longer break between sets
    and shorter sets it's like people don't really start getting into
    dancing until the last few songs in the set.  Then it's over and a lot
    of them will leave.
    
    I saw them do it Saturday night and if that was any example it's
    working VERY well!
    
    Greg

...and more on Gregs.

(And it sure is nice to see Bob Durham in here.  Howdee dood!)

At our last few shows at The Mine, we did something similar to what Greg 
mentioned (but I don't think he was talking about us).  We played a 30 minute
set first, followed by like 1 hour+ sets...  It seems to have worked well.

And Like Bob, we'll have our set lists marked as to who/when talks.
We try to arrange songs around who is going to speak.  Generally, its a 
an every three of four toons thing.  I think I'd mentioned the Rob 
Halford/Wheaties thing...  Ya know ??   We like doin' medleys too.

Great stuff here !

jc

    RE: Bob Durham's note...
    
    BOB LIVES!!  Unbelievable!!  I don't know, but I 'think' this is Bob's
    FIRST reply in the conference...and he's been reading these notes for
    years!!  Hard to believe such a killer axe player is shy!!  How the
    heck are ya Bob?!!
    
    I vote for the 3 to 4 song medley or segway, and then a little
    conversation...this advice from a former member of the band that holds
    the world record for time between songs.
    
    Steve

>    conversation...this advice from a former member of the band that holds
>    the world record for time between songs.

Uh-huh.  We took our time about it didn't we ?

BTW - Saw Storm Friday at The Penthouse - Hot ACT !!  You need to check
'em out, and scope on Bobs awesome slide playing, and truely amazing
vibrato.

jc

PS - Storm has a great mix of "musicians music" and "crowd pleasers".  Nice
     job out there boize !!

    Bob D is an extremely versatile player as well.....the thing I love
    most about his playing is the tones he gets from his Les Paul/Marshall
    combination...I was sad to hear he's also picked up one of them spear
    shaped things, but I'll be OK if I know he's still doing some Allman
    Bros on the sunburst LP!!  8)
    
    How 'bout it Bobby?
    
    Steve

I'm glad to hear they are doing Metallica on the pointy ones... 

:)

jc (Who couldn't resist a jab at his ole time bud)

    Coop,
    
    didn't YOU buy a Les Paul JUST like mine??  ;^)
    
    Dawg

Well...Ummm, errr...  Yeah!  but I sold it a few months later
to buy a new RG570.  :)

jc

    
    Hi Stevey,
    
    Hey, as a matter of fact, we do play some old Allman Bros.
     -- Statesboro Blues
     -- One Way Out
     -- (a newer One) - Good Clean Fun (good song)
     
    Hey Steve, By the way I do use my les paul on the slide parts.
    
    I had to invest in a new amp (1977 50 watt jmp marshall) just love
    those marshalls.
    
                                Bob D.
                                  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    RE: -2
    
    COOP!  YOu sold your LP without calling me?  Musta been asking too
    much, eh!  |^)
    
    RE: -1
    
    Bob D...
    Hi to you too guy!  I think about ya every time I hear/jam "I'm No
    Angel".....you always brought me up to sit in on that one...and I LOVED
    it!!   say hi to Barb and the kiddies.......
    
    Steve