Conference napalm::guitar

       One thing you might be able to do in your spare time is to
    visualize in relation to positions on the neck. Start in open
    position and get a mental picture of the notes starting on the
    low E to high E (G for bass players).
       Then at the first fret do the same from low F to high F. This
    will be the same for 4-frets. The next would be to recall all the
    notes on each string ie; E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab  for the E string - then
    to the A, D, G, etc...
       Take all that, and move your hand up one fret (position) to F.
    Do all that over. You can continue to as far as your neck goes, if
    you so choose to accept this mission...
    
    
    
    Good luck!
    
       John   

    I don't think PLAYING the scales is a good way to learn the notes
    because of the repetitive finger patterns.  I think the purpose of
    playing scales (assuming you go through all the modes) is to help
    develope your ear so that you can "hear" the scale (which helps you
    know when to apply it to a song) and become familiar with the finger
    patterns for it.
    
    I think a good way to learn the notes is to takea piece of unfamliar
    music and sight read it.   Try to play it in as many different
    positions as you can but don't stay on the same tune too long or you
    may revert to using "finger memory".  Play it once through on each
    position.
    
    Obviously this also helps your sight reading too to an extent.
    
    I have my own method for "knowing what notes to play" on a guitar which
    I doubt would be useful to most guitar players.  I am a converted
    keyboard player and frankly, I can't even imagine how guitar players
    know what notes to play without thinking about them with a nice
    graphical LINEAR representation like the keyboard.   
    
    I suppose that the fretboard does have similar linear properties but...
    Suffice it to say that when I play guitar I often have a picture of
    a keyboard in my head.
    
    Weird huh?  Whatever works I guess...
    
    	db

    
    Thanks for the input so far guys, keep it up.
    
    How about this for a wild thought, use something like DYMO Tape to
    label the notes on every fret on my el-cheapo, naff guitar. That way
    I would see each note I am playing as I play it. (Yeh actually stick
    the letters on the fretboard!! Might make it a bit more akward to play)
    
    Maybe after a while it would start to sink in??? Maybe I've been
    smoking too long!!!
    
    J

    A couple of years ago, Greg game me a program that quizzes you on notes
    of the neck.  If he doesn't mind, I can post the source here.
    
    Mike

    
    Yes please!!!!!!!
    
    J.

    
    	About a year ago, in GUITAR PLAYER, there was a Strat-type
    	guitar that had "dial-a-scale" on it.  The guitar itself got
    	a great review as a very good Strat.
    
    	It had a few extra knobs that you could dial in the key and
    	the scale.  So, dial Key=A, scale=locrian, and LED's would
    	light up on every note that worked.
    
    	The guitar was in the < $800 range and, according to the
    	reviewer, was almost worth it WITHOUT the LED's.  I thought
    	it would be not only a great learning / teaching instrument
    	but also a wild stage guitar!!!  
    
    	Anyone else see that review?
    
    	Tom
    

    
    	Oh yeah, there's also "the Guitar Poster" that shows the
    	entire fretboard, all notes, scales, common chords, open
    	tunings, the 12 major keys, etc...
    
    	I have one in my office at the Mill in Maynard.  Pick it
    	up here or in Marlboro and, for $5.00, it's yours.
    
    	Anyone want it?
    
    	Tom - puggs::desrochers
    
    

	The optek fretlight guitar. That's a guitar with a future!

	I can't wait to stumble into one of those 20 or 30 years from
	now...

	I've been trying to get a better handle on the notes myself.
	Tearing down chords and spelling them out as I arpeggiate them
	is helping a little.

	So far nothing beats sight reading.

	ccb

    Go ahead and post that program if you want Mike.  Everyone should keep
    in mind that this was not really intended for publication and was
    hacked together in just a few minutes to have some minimal way of
    learning this stuff myself.  Unfortunately there's some kind of bogus
    programming practices used and the graphic display leaves a lot to be
    desired.

    That said, even with the deficiencies, I was able to get a lot of
    utility out of the program for myself.  It forced me to think about
    things (partially because the graphic display was so crude).

    Greg

    Something to keep in mind:  Greg told me that wherever there is a note
    that can be a # or b, you should answer with both (i.e., A#, Bb)
    
    Mike
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
	program quiz
	implicit none
	character*5 neck(6,0:11), notes(12), guess
	integer*2 string, fret, temp, try_cnt, string_offset(6)
	integer*4 seed /9839124/, status, str$case_blind_compare, lib$wait
	real*4 random, five_seconds /5.0/, one_second /1.0/

	notes(1)='E'			! Use notes on E string for 
	notes(2)='F'			! convience.
	notes(3)='F#/Gb'
	notes(4)='G'
	notes(5)='G#/Ab'
	notes(6)='A'
	notes(7)='A#/Bb'
	notes(8)='B'
	notes(9)='C'
	notes(10)='C#/Db'
	notes(11)='D'
	notes(12)='D#/Eb'

	string_offset(1)=0		! Offsets into notes
	string_offset(2)=7
	string_offset(3)=3
	string_offset(4)=10
	string_offset(5)=5
	string_offset(6)=0

	seed=JIFIX((9234.912399*RAN(seed))*RAN(seed))+SECNDS(0.0)

	do while (1)
	  random=RAN(seed) 
	  string=IIFIX(6.0*random)+1

	  random=RAN(seed) 
	  fret=IIFIX(12.0*random)
	  try_cnt=1

	  call print_neck(string,fret)
	  type *,' '
	  type *,'String: ',string 
	  type *,'Fret: ',fret
	  type *,' '
100	  type *,'What is the note?'
	  accept 10,guess
	  if (guess .eq. ' ') goto 9999
	  temp=IMOD((12+fret+string_offset(string)),12)+1
	  status=str$case_blind_compare(guess,notes(temp)) 
	  if (status .ne. 0) then
	    type *,'*** Wrong, try again ***'
	    try_cnt=try_cnt+1
	    if (try_cnt .le. 5) goto 100
	    type *,' '
	    type *,'*** Correct note is: ', notes(temp)
	    type *,' '
	    status=lib$wait(five_seconds)
	  else
	    type *,' '
	    type *,' *** CORRECT ***'
	    type *,' '
	    status=lib$wait(one_second)
	  endif
	enddo
9999	continue
10	format (a5)
	end

	subroutine print_neck(s,f)
	implicit none
	integer*2 i,s,f,tmp
	byte clear_screen_numbers(10)
	character*10 clear_screen /' [2J [0;0H'/
	character*26 string, template /' [-|-|-:-|-:-|-:-|-:-|-|-|'/
	equivalence (clear_screen,clear_screen_numbers)

	clear_screen_numbers(1)=27
	clear_screen_numbers(5)=27
	tmp=f*2+1
	if (f .eq. 0) tmp=f+1
	type *,clear_screen
	do i=1,6
	  if (i .ne. s) then
	    type *,template
	  else
	    string=template
	    string(tmp:tmp)='o'
	    type *,string
	  endif
	enddo
	return
	end

  re: .10

   FORTRAN???   Eeeeee-eww!!

   Hey, what's this "lib$..." sh!t?  It won't compile on my PMAX!  :-)

   Just kidding, thanks for the posting.

   -- Sam

    Doncha love it when someone says they "hacked it together in just 
    a few minutes", and then posts 80 lines of Fortran?
    
    Seriously though, thanks for the posting...
    
    Edd

    I can't defend it better than Greg can, but I'm sure he wrote it before
    PMAX was a twinkle in Palo Alto's eye ;-)
    
    Mike

    Haha!  Sorry about that Sam!  I readily admit to being a VMS bigot. 
    Should be easy enough to convert though. 
    
    Greg

    
    
    
    
    	The way I did it, and I'm not done yet <sigh> is to do I IV V
    patterns up the neck starting on the bass string... Octaves make little
    upside down "L"s  (ells) Like this:
    
    *  
    
      *
    
    	And, of course the Is and Ivs are next to each other... sounds
    doofus, I know but it's the way I leearned em... 
    
    
    Gree Vee King

I made a postcript file with all the notes spelled out ("'"=flat).
This has been very helpful. I think laminating it then using a grease
pencil to chart out the notes for various runs would be beneficial
(i've printed several copies of the following and marked them up
with a highlighter)(this works pretty keen, too!)


      1       3       5       7       9          12      14      16          
                                                                             
e  ||-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|    
b  ||-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|    
g  ||-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|    
d  ||-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|    
a  ||-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|    
e  ||-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|-b'|-b-|-c-|-d'|-d-|-e'|-e-|-f-|-g'|-g-|-a'|-a-|    


butch

    How about a pointer to the PS file?
    
    Mike

    
    
    Thanks for the responses they have been great (it's real nice to know
    that I ain't alone in trying to tame this savage beast!)
    
    One of the questions I asked hasn't really been answered tho'.
    
    Do any of you know all the notes off by heart? I mean could I point to 
    a place at random and have you go G# or whatever. Is there anyone
    out there who plays using patterns?? I guess I am trying to find out
    what works for people and why? Who thinks in notes and who thinks in
    patterns?
    
    J. (Learning Rosalie at the mo')
    

    While I coukd probably name all the notes on the fretboard, I'm
    not sure how often such knowledge is useful. When playing a lead
    to a song in a certain key, I look for the root tone and then the
    rest of the tones are relative to the root. So if I'm in C I would
    view the C# as a flat 9th relative to C. I think of everything in
    terms of intervals and runs relative to the key I'm playing in.
    
    - Dave

    	
    re:-1  well put, Dave.  I too don't think "I'm playing out of Gmaj
    	   so I'll hit all these F#'s to get a nice maj7 thing going".
    
    	   The more you play chords all over the neck as opposed to 
    	   just barre chords or staying in the first 3-4 frets, the
    	   more you'll know the individual notes.  I can't remember
    	   the last time I played chords in the first 4 frets, they
    	   just don't work for me.  
    
    	   I used to use the 7th fret as a reference alot since it matches
    	   the previous strings' open note.  It's second nature now but
    	   it still is kind of a "home base".  
    
    	   Of course, most of you guys don't do modes so...  ;^)
    
    

Not that I feel at all defensive, I want to respond to the last two
replys to say that as a beginner, knowing where the notes are while
trying to map out what sounds good and -why- it sounds good, it's
a big help to know by rote (or use a chart like I left several replys
ago) the notes you're playing.  Saying your basing runs on relationships
to tonics or roots is fine, but if you don't know where the darn flat 9th
is (in any direction), merely stating that you can use the flat ninth
doesn't buy you much.

re: .-1, I use the 7th fret area because of relationships to E and A blues 
patterns I'm familiar playing in that part of the neck. I look at my note 
chart to see if there are places to play up and/or down within the previous 
runs to fatten them out, make them sound different, (ie, play in a different 
mode, although at this point I don't care what the "mode" is as long as it 
sounds right.)

I  had virtually quit playing in the first 4 frets too up until
about a month ago when I started trying to play some of the stuff Stevie
Ray Vaughan was doing "down there". Using open strings down low gives a  
more flavor rich twangy sound that can't be gotton too many places in the 
upwards frets. Now I force myself to fool around with notes down low just
to get a certain feel. Hey, well, maybe it's a learners phase I'm in.

> I  had virtually quit playing in the first 4 frets too ....

When you play a chord where you have open strings, you can use the open strings
and the notes that make up the chords for your solo's. I find that it's
sometimes harder to use these open notes because you have to anticipate
which ones are valid for the chord that you are using. Using the open tunings
for some of your notes adds to the tonal quality of the sounds - for example,
you can let notes ring out while you are fingering other notes. I suggest
using the whole neck and try to find what notes work with the chords that you
are soloing around, as well as using patterns that you are comfortable with.

							Jens

    
    Let me clarify about the 1st 4 frets statement.  I most definitely
    use the whole fretboard for solos.  I was trying to say that the
    more your chords move away from the basic "1st 4 frets", the more
    forms used over the neck, the easier it will be to "learn all the
    notes".  
    
    Another point - to my ears, if you're in a band with a keyboard
    player, you often don't need to use those big "1st 4 fret" - all
    6 strings chords.  It just gets muddy and an implied minor 3rd
    up higher sounds better.  To me, those chords often clash with
    the keyboards.
    
    Heck, maybe I'll sell my guitar to a strictly rhythm player -
    "1st 4 frets barely used" !!!  ;^)
    
    

    re: Butch
    
    I still think it's a lot more efficient to learn the patterns which
    make up the scales/modes. Guitar is not like piano. If you know the
    C major scale on the guitar (at the 8th fret) and you want to play the
    B major scale, you just move it down one fret. Remembering the names
    of the notes in the scale is a lot of extra mental baggage to carry
    around. On piano it makes sense to know the names of the notes since
    the C scale is all the "white" keys, but the B scale has lots of
    "black" keys in it.
    
    I'm trying to learn the mandolin now. Rather than learn all the notes
    on all the strings, I'm trying to learn the scale patterns so I can
    find a note on the E string and play a scale pattern around that note.
    I still get lost a lot, but I feel  that I'm progressing much faster
    this way.
    
    - Dave

re: last few regarding "pattern learning" vs "rote memorization"

I'd have to say that as in everything else in life, the answer is not just one
or the other.  It's a combination of both.  The deciding factor is time.

PL (pattern learning) is efficient because the patterns are relatively small 
and easier to remember than all the notes.  But to find a given note, you have
to regenerate it's location every time.  And that regeneration takes time.

RM (rote memorization) is harder, but faster.  You want a note, presto, you 
play it.  But a lot more to remember.

PL works only so well for performing.  The time taken to regenerate a note's 
location will become clumbsy and too slow in real time.  RM is better because 
the response time from inspiration to execution is instantaneous.

PL is necessary for study and understanding the theory and writing.  You need
to know how things works as opposed to just what works.

A good example for guitar players is this:  Say you know the patterns really 
well but you only play in key of E, A, or G most of the time.  When your 
keyboard player looks over at you and says "Hey let'd do this in E flat, the 
first solo's yours" you'll see how well PL works in that situation.  You'll 
probably find that it takes too much time to figure out where things are at.
The end result is that you simple can't play as effectively in that key.  And
what you'll really find is this:  That you *really* have taken the patterns
and completely memorized locations of everything in keys E, A, and G.  You
don't use PL at all on those keys, you're way past that and into to RM.

But, PL is where you start and what gives you the understanding to move into RM 
later.  I don't believe that this should be underestimated.

My approach is to use PL to learn songs, keys, most anything.  But to really
fluently perform the song, or in the key, I must apply RM in order to know
it cold.  My guess that's what most people do whether they realize it or not.

All JMO, of course,

Will

Whether to use patterns or not comes down to a couple of basic points.  First, 
patterns are absolutely wonderful for learning new scales and so forth.  They
are also very helpful with other aspects of your playing - like picking 
technique, left hand stretches, etc (depending on the pattern, of course).
But, if you learn nothing but patterns, they don't help very much during a solo.
You'll sound immediately like everyone else who doesn't know anything but this
neat little A-box pseudo-blues thing.

So, use patterns to build a foundation where you can play any scale using 
any of three to four patterns.  Note that you have gotten this far without 
really thinking about what notes go in what scale; just that if you start at
X and play one of these four patterns, you just played X maj (or min, or dim, 
or...).  Some other less obvious things you've accomplished:

	1. You have trained your ear to hear the intervals associated with the
           scale you're working on.

	2. Your picking technique has probably been improved considerably

	3. Left and right hand synchronization (related to #2) has improved.

	4. You have the building blocks to combine the patterns you've learned
           and play X (maj,min,etc) "all over the neck".

However, about a year ago I went for some lessons with a very talented jazz 
guitarist (who studied for years with Johnny Smith -- very under-rated and
phenomenal jazz guitarist).  Anyway, I wanted to work some jazz playing in 
with my rock playing....  The *first* thing he said to me after I had played
for him was, "Ok, I can hear that you know how to play, and you have an ear,
so why are you using all those patterns?  I can tell what you're going to play
before you play it."  That's when he told me patterns are good for learning,
but not overly helpful when soloing.  Over the last year I've come to agree
with that 100%.  I am just now starting to get to the point where I can play
in any key, anywhere on the neck, and not have to rely on rote patterns.  The
great part about it is that my note selection is improving.  I'm now beginning
to play notes because they are the notes I want to play, not because they happen
to be handy under my fingers at the moment.

steve

    I agree with Steve about using the patterns as a foundation to play any
    scale - in any position on the fretboard.  This should really develop
    your ability to know where the tonic/fifth relationship is - and you
    can indeed play easily all 12 scales from a single position - if you
    want to.  
    
    Someone asked about learning to sight read in an earlier reply:
    
    	this is more difficult on the guitar than on the keyboard or
    on a wind instrument, simply because you have to make a choice about
    position.  Given that you've made that choice, you should learn to
    read by reading.  Ok.  Here's the scoop...
    
    	Even professional horn and keyboard players still have to 
    practice reading.  My trumpet instructor wanted us to read the piece,
    and the scales, even though we'd memorized them ages ago, simply
    to keep the reading chops up.  Admittedly, after a while you're not
    really reading (in the sight reading sense) but the thing that you
    do is to keep you eyes tuned in to the appearance of a passage so that
    when it appears in the music you automatically play it correctly. 
    That's how real sight reading works, and it frees your mind to work
    on the correct interpretation of the music AT THE TIME that you are
    reading it for the first time.  You can do the same thing with 
    jazz changes (learn to THINK the changes and hear the right notes).
    The trick is to read everything - especially scales and arpeggios.
    
    Your scale patterns should be written out from the root to the ninth
    (or if two octaves the second ninth) in order that you can play them
    through in perfect time with the metronome.  Write them out up and 
    down for every key - then play each of the scale forms for that key,
    you'll quickly start to read in the different positions.

I read Steve's reply after a posted my own and it brings to light something I 
hadn't thought of.

Using patterns for learning is great, but to solo, the idea is to play what you
feel, or what you hear in your head.  And you can't really do that with patterns
very well.  For that to take place, you have to let go of patterns.  And to let
go of them, you have to "know" where things -- sounds, really -- are, not just
be able to "figure out" where they are.  If you're in the middle of a solo, it's
too late to figure it out.  You have to already know.

I must add, that I can't do it all the time.  I get caught in the pattern thing
a lot more than I would like to.  But I know that when I was able to break out 
of it,that was the difference.

More food for thought,

Will

Dave will Jens Tom et al, yeah, cool. Thanks. I realize we've gone
somewhat tangental to the original topic (maybe) but I think this all
fits so I'll continue..(plus i'm picking up some stuff, so what the heck?)

I didn't mean to imply -not- to use patterns, Dave I guess I misunderstood
what you said. most of the junk I'm learning now is practically all
pattern related. I can riff around in the pattern set of notes without
knowing what the notes are - assuming somebody shows me a pattern or I pick 
it up out a book or stumble across one. I have found it real handy - as
Will points out - it's a combination of the two - to know other
notes so I can branch from one pattern into another pattern and back.
Using just a barre chord for a pattern doesn't cut it (IMO - maybe cause
I'm not creative or technical enough yet).
Since I'm still fumblin' around with what you guitar slayers do in your
sleep, it really helps knowing the notes up or down the neck that I can
slide into to make an old pattern (or set of notes) sound new. I think
we're all saying the same thing in essence anyway.

(and they call drummers hard to work with!) (sheesh!)
:-)

hey, but seriously, good discussion...

      Along  the same topic lines, how many of you can look at sheet
      music, see the "key signature" and really know  what  key  the
      tune's  in  without looking at the fist couple notes (ie, just
      by looking at the key signature)? Is there some trick to this?
      I spend about an hour  going..."duh,  a-b-c...duh  c#...no,no,
      d..." etc etc.

      Is  there  a  gimick  besides  rote  memorization to look at 3
      sharps and "know" that the key is A major?

    
    

>>      Along  the same topic lines, how many of you can look at sheet
>>      music, see the "key signature" and really know  what  key  the
>>      tune's  in  without looking at the fist couple notes (ie, just
>>      by looking at the key signature)? Is there some trick to this?
>>      I spend about an hour  going..."duh,  a-b-c...duh  c#...no,no,
>>      d..." etc etc.
    
    Look at the last sharp in the key signature.  The key is the next
    half-step up.  For example:
    
    		1 sharp:	F#		Key is G
    		2 sharps:	F#, C#		Key is D
    		3 sharps:	F#, C#, G#	Key is A
    		and so forth.
    
    A second trick is the to notice that the progression follows the
    circle of fifths.  All you have to do is rember that C has
    no sharps or flats.  Go up a fifth-- 1 sharp is G.  Another 5th--
    two sharps are D, etc.  Going in fifths in the other direction
    will give you the key for the key signatures with flats-- F, Bb,
    Eb, etc.  You may prefer to think of this as going up in 4ths.
    
    Another trick for keys with flats is that the key is the same as
    the next to the last flat in the key signature.  You have to
    remember that one flat is F:
    
    		2 flats:	Bb, Eb		Key is Bb
    		3 flats:	Bb, Eb, Ab	Key is Eb
    		4 flats:	Bb, Eb, Ab, Db	Key is Ab
    		...
    
    Jim

    ANother trick for the flat keys are to look at the (last) accidental
    and count up a 5th...
    
    KEY SIG: Bb, Eb, Ab
       
    COUNT:           Ab Bb C D **Eb**
                     1  2  3  4  5

	You can memorize the circle of fifths by remembering that

		Fat Cats Get Dizzy After Eating Butter

	When I took piano lessons my instructor had me learn it this way:

	Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle

	Which works pretty well, because it can be used backwards as well
	to remember the flats:

	Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles's Father

    
    
    Does anyone have any feelings/experience with classical guitar
    training? I have been mulling this over for a while and I am
    considering going for it. Mainly because I guess the instruction
    will be very regimented and that I would have goals (Grades) to aim 
    for...........a sort of record that you are making progress.
    
    Any views.
    
    J.
    

I just started a month ago and believe it's going to be great.

I've playing rock and roll on electric since I was 16.  I'm turning 33 in June
this year.  I do a very little jazz, too.

What got me to do it was buying a very nice acoustic guitar.  I wanted to learn
how to really play it instead of just strum along.

Already, my electric technique is changing for the better.  My classical 
technique was non existant before and is coming along well.  It will just be a
long road to proficiency.

With the right teacher, I'd recommend it highly.

Will

    There's another program in here that plots chords/scales across the
    entire neck.  Great for seeing relationships on the neck.
    
    Mike

    re .-1
    
    it's in note 174
    
    - Dave

    Here's what I do:
    
    I make a list of all the notes randomly - Like:
    
    Gb                   A
    C                    D
    F#                   Db
    E                    G
    B                    Ab
    Bb                   .
                         .  etc.  I also make sure that I have in the list
    things like Ab and G# - even though they're the same note, so that you
    get used to knowing where they're at either way.   I then take this
    list and each day just pick one note, and work on memorizing it for
    15 mins - 1/2 hour.  Just one note a day.  I make hash marks on the 
    list so that I keep track of how many times I've done the note.  The
    way I do the notes is the following:
    
    o I find each note on each string all up and down the fretboard in a 
      random fashion - like string: 1,4,3,2,5,6
    
    o Then what I do is take a scale, like the major scale or pentatonic,
      or whatever one you want, and I play the scale starting on the
      root note, on each string in as many spots on the fretboard as 
      possible.  So for example, lets say you're memorizing "A".  You
      first do the 1,4,3,2,5,6 thing, then you go and play the A major
      scale, starting on A on each string wherever A occurs.  What I like
      about this method is that it helps you memorize the notes, AND helps
      you memorize the scale fingering based on whatever string you're on.
      So you don't end up just memorizing what the scale fingering is
      based on the form for the 6th string.   Doing more than a half hour
      of this a day gets pretty boring, so I just do it as part of my 
      warmup.  After a while you really start recognizing where the notes
      are on the fretboard.     Just an idea - it seems to be working for
      me.  
    
      ...Roy