Conference napalm::guitar

    I think that sales should be "first come, first serve".  Some items
    generate a LOT of interst, and it becomes apparent to me that queueing
    interest as it comes in is the only fair way to go about it.  
    
    John, sorry to hear this guy is giving you a run-around

Once someone agrees to sell you something at an agreed upon price, that's it.
The deal is final. You have a meeting of the minds and, so, a contract, binding
him to the exchange. You should be irritated. And for a lousy $5.

    I've sold a LOT of stuff through here, and once I squared a deal (the
    XXX is yours for $Y), then that was it.  On occasion, I would have
    several parties interested, and I'd offer the goods to the 1st bidder
    and tell the rest where they stood if #1 fell through.
    
    $5 is petty ... and the "other interested party" might be nobody, ya
    know ?  Not accusing anyone, just stating a fact.
    
    Scary (the UPS folks know me on a first name basis .... and headin'
    there today too !)

Hey .0, if this guy's other prospect doesn't come through (in a perfect
and just world it wouldn't) lower your offer by some amount. Say $5.

    Sounds pretty shabby to me for a lowly $5.  Most people in here are
    pretty honorable, but there's always the minority to worry about.
    
    I've had good results with folks on the USENET too.  
    
    Mike

        That would  irritate  me,  and  I  would  not  deal  with  that
        individual again.
        
        I've sold a  few  things  through  notes  (and  have some happy
        buyers, right Ed?) and what I do is 'first come, first served',
        and if their offer is  what  I'm  looking for, the deal is done
        and locked.  A couple of  times,  I've  sent  out  mail telling
        other folks that I've accepted the offer  from buyer1 and had a
        higher offer from buyer* - invariable answer is "sorry - sold!"
        
        Andy
        

    I gotta agree that it's pretty shabby.
    
    FWIW - I've bought and sold to a lot of you folks in here, and
    most of my rig has either come from someone in here, or someone 
    here has supplied a pointer to where I can get what I've wanted.
    Never had a problem at all, hope this doesn't happen often.
    
    Lesse:
    
    I've got a: 
    
    DSP128+ from Will Collum (thanks Will)
    
    Furman PL-Plus, Hush IICX and Ibanez guitar from Buck - Thanks dude !!
    (not to mention a zillion pointers to hot-price/availability info!)
    
    Traded tons of stuff a lot with Greg House 
    (also neighbor, life-long buddy and pal etc...)
    
    Kitty Hawk Quattro - Mail Order from Daddys via Mark Jacques (right?)
    
    MicroStack and Yamaha 'lectric - from Jon Taylor
    

    
    
    
    	I'd be disappointed too... I agree with the rest that a deal should
    be a deal..  I've backed out of a couple one a sale and one a purchase,
    just because I changed my mind.. and I still feel a little sleazy about
    it.  I have never felt cheated or taken advanatage of on a sale through
    the notes files... says a lot for my fellow emplyees

       I'd be upset too and for $5.00!???!??? No way to do business. 
    As Buck said, it's first come first served, if someone offers you
    more...  too bad cause the deal has been made! Not much class. He 
    basically gave you his word that the deal was good when he gave 
    you his badge number, account no... etc and then to stop the deal 
    for $5.00! Pretty poor I'd say.
    
    	What really bothers me too is when you think you have a buyer
    and tells you that he going to buy it and asks you to take the "ad"
    out of notes (which you do) and then doesn't get back to you, or ends
    up not buying it! Please insert the part where you've told other folks
    that it's as good as sold so they go somewhere else and you're left
    holding the bag...   again.

       Thanks for your support, guys.  I've had pretty good success with
       buying stuff through the net, even though I'm on the other coast.
       I got my quattro (thanks, Buck, still love it!)  and my
       steinburger from among your ranks, and I've sold some MIDI
       software to the UK through notes contacts, so my experience (with
       the exception of this occasion) has been very positive.

       I'm not going to pursue this any further, but if I see the guy
       offer anything else you can expect a sarcastic reply from me.
       Have a good string-bendin', tube-burnin', stage-shakin' weekend!

       

I agree with all the other replies here.  Pretty inconsiderate for $5.  I'd be 
very irritated.

re Coop:  Man, you've bought a lot a stuff everywhere!  ;^) x 100
...And you're welcome!

Will

    I think once the offer's accepted that should be the end of it, that's
    certainly the way I operate.  Now, if I were selling something with an
    "Or Best Offer" qualifier and I got several offers, I would select the
    highest offer regardless of the order they came in.  That's what the
    term means.  However, I would not accept a higher offer if I received
    it after I'd already told someone else I'd accept theirs.

    I've always gone out of my way to make sure people trust me and I want
    to keep it that way.  My word is as binding as any written contract as
    far as I'm concerned.  I'll even go as far as fixing things that aren't
    in bad shape on something I've sold just to make sure someone's happy
    with it when they get it.  Takes me a little time and I lose some
    money, but I'd rather that someone be happy with the deal they got from
    me and want to deal with me again in the future.

    Greg
                                                    

I think the previous replies matched my point of view - once it's agreed
upon, that's it.

In buying stuff, one thing I do is make a low offer, but allow the seller
to wait for a better offer. If he gets a better money, all the better for 
him. If not, he can still sell to me at the price I offered. Works out fair
for both parties.....

alan

P.S. Yo Greve-Unit - you were man enough to offer to buy my cab even after 
     you said you didn't really want it anymore! Couldn't ask for anything 
     more honorable than that!

WHOOOAAA GREEE VEEEE, what a testimonial.
Admirable behavior. Above and beyond. I'm nominating you for the 
Congressional Medal of Honor for network ethics.  ._. (dead pan)


BTW, what we're talking about here is really just plain free market

       	                     E-T-H-I-C-S.

..\ (picasso)

    Not to sound a sour note, but I have to advise caution in
    "buying/selling" through notes. As with anything else, it's caveat
    emptor. I say this because I've made the unpleasant mistake myself of
    assuming that because other noters seem friendly and we work for the
    same company that they all have the same values I do. Not so.
    
    I've had one extremely distasteful experience of selling some equipment
    to someone (through another conference) in which they lived some distance
    away and the stuff had to be delivered by UPS. We discussed the
    arrangements and came to the agreement that I would get paid half up
    front, ship the stuff off, then get the other half. In retrospect I
    should have insisted on C.O.D., but I've never used C.O.D. and didn't
    know anything about it, so I figured I'd trust them.
    
    To make a long story short, I sent the stuff as promised and didn't get
    the final payment. They didn't respond to my mail inquiries, and every
    time I tried to contact this person they were "out of the office".
    After a couple of months they finally sent a check for less than we had
    agreed on, making the excuse that they had decided some of the stuff I
    sent them (in this case, software) "wasn't really useful" to them. At
    that point I gave up, since there was little I could do to follow up
    with someone living in another state.
    
    This is not my general experience of dealing with other noters, who for
    the most part I've found to be some of the friendliest and honest
    people I know. But I offer it as a warning not to assume too much.
    
    - Ram

	No I wouldn't sell "my integrity" for $5. Whether it's $5 or $100
	it's not right.  But I doubt there's much integrity risk in this 
	medium anyway.

	You can be irritated,but it won't make much difference.

	Just because this is a "Digital" notesfile doesn't "protect" you
	from anything you would be exposed too in the "real world". Whether
	it's a case of false advertising,a bounced check or someone mis-
	representing something. Then again in the real world you'd have
        some sort of recourse.

	It is "buyer beware" as usual.... of course you can always dream...

	As far as ethics are concerned I can't remember the last time I 
	came across an "ethical buisnessman".

	It's really too bad.......but it's nice to know people have had 
	positive deals go down.....


							Rick

First off, for someone to sham a deal for 5 bucks is a toad.
You're better off getting what ever it was else where, cuz 
the guy was probably chargin too much anyway!


but here's a different slice..

I had a snake for sale for about 6 months, I tried just about everything.
Local want adds, music/guitar.etc..  Even brought it down to a local store
for consignment sale where it sat for months.  I would have put money on
the fact that I was gonna take that snake to my grave.

Well, on a lark I figured I'd put it in the Guitar/Music forum once more.
Well, low and behold, within 2 hours, I had it sold..  Don't I get down to the
store that was holding it for cosignment sale, only to find that it
had sold THAT AFTER NOON!!!
  

I felt like a complete a$$hole, but that's just the way it happened.  I can't
imagine anyone doing the same, intentionally, and for five bucks!

But, one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch...

    
    
    This is an exact copy of a mail message just sent out to the seller of
    a distortion unit that appeared in the For Sale note.
    
    
      Is the Guitar note 2131.* referencing the sale of the Distortion
  unit that I bid 35 bucks for? If it is I am going to back out of our
  deal because of ethics. When I received notice from you that the unit
  was now mine, I thought the other party had willingly backed out of
  the deal. It seems that he did not and it is apparent to me that he
  indeed wanted it and feels that the business ethics were in question.
  I have to agree. I have tried my best to carry through with every
  committment that I have made through all conference sales. I respect
  all the musicians who are a part of the Guitar conference and I certainly
  do not wnat this trust breached.

                             Thanks,

                                Randy

                                                         

        Re .20;
        
        Nice one! Maybe a lesson will be learned...
        
        Andy
        

    Bravo Randy.
    
    <Insert batman theme>
    SMACK!
    Biff !
    POOWWWWW !
    
    jc (Standing on chair singing National Anthem, with Wall Street Journal)
    
    ;)
    

    Ok guys, I learned my lesson.  I did ask for $30 or best offer.  And
    the replies did come right after each other which made me think maybe I
    underpriced it.  Any ways, that is over now.  I still got a distortion
    pedal for sale for best offer.. 
    hh

    
    
    
    	So, ummmm Haji, dude... does this mean that my twenty dollar offer
    is OK now???   ;^) ;^)   Has this pedal ever been "wet sanded"?  more
    ;^)
    
    
    	Let's you and me go over to number 2 and start dickerin' dude!

>    Ok guys, I learned my lesson.  I did ask for $30 or best offer.  And
>    the replies did come right after each other which made me think maybe I
>    underpriced it.  Any ways, that is over now.  I still got a distortion
>    pedal for sale for best offer.. 
>    hh

       Well, I don't think you've quite got it right, yet.  You offered I
       accepted.  When can I expect delivery of this item?  BTW, all things
       considered I think C.O.D terms will work best.

	And with that, we'll take this topic offle where it belongs...
       

    OK John,
    You got it.  $35 in my account and I'll ship it as we agreed
    originally (I cover the shipping).
    hh

    All this for a 30 $ pedal? John, you can buy these things new for $35.

    	The disk space is almost worth more than the damn pedal!@#!!@!

       Hey, it's the principle of the thing.  Which is the same reason
       I'm buying the damn thing: I said I would.  Even though I now
       know I could buy the thing new for the same price.  Tell you the
       truth, I don't even want it now.  But I gotta stand by my word or
       I'm guilty of the same behavior I was complaining about.  I'm
       just glad I wasn't bidding on anything expensive!
       
       

        Nope -  when  the  seller  mailed you to tell you that he had a
        higher offer, and  intended  to  sell  at the higher price, and
        invited you to raise  your  bid,  and you refused - there is no
        'meeting of the minds' and  hence,  no  contract.   You have no
        obligation to continue with this deal  whatever.    Your ethics
        are not in question as far as I'm concerned.
        
        Andy
        

I agree completely with -1.

    I don't...I think it stretches the Best Offer idea a tad far.

    
       I don't think the pedals worth at this point is much above $5.00...
    Besides my ex-wife is a better distrition source than any DOD pedal!
    
                                      R.B.

    Oh boy, an ethics debate?  ;-) ;-)  JUST KIDDING!!!!
    
    IMHO when the seller backed out the SELLER was STILL under obligation
    to sell for the agreed upon price, but when he backed out he in effect
    released the buyer of any obligation because he (seller) broke the
    contract.
    
    So at this point I would say the seller is still obliged but the buyer
    is not.
    
    I believe that this analysis agrees with both common ethical practice
    and to a large extent, law.

    re .31
    John,
    You are not obligated to buy as far as I am concerned.  If you have
    sent your check already I will tear it up and the deal is off (Since
    you realy not interested any more).  As far as re 28.  I haven't seen
    any less than $50 (49.95) in stores pre tax and non less than $45 mail
    order pre shipping cost.  So maybe you want to let us know where you
    can get one new for $35.  
    
    We squeezed the life out of this topic.. shall we put this one to rest.
    hh

    re: .-1
    
>    As far as re 28.  I haven't seen
>    any less than $50 (49.95) in stores pre tax and non less than $45 mail
>    order pre shipping cost.  So maybe you want to let us know where you
>    can get one new for $35.  
           
    Rice Music
    1713 So. Eighth St.
    Colorado Springs, CO
    (719)634-3717 or (800)444-RICE
    
    Last week they had a stack of DOD Supra Distortions on the counter in
    the guitar dept for $34.95 with the logo "Distort for less".
    
    Greg

DOD Supra Distortion
--------------------

Musician's Friend: $39.88
American Musical Supply: $35.95

alan

       
       
       
       
       Well, thanks, Hamid.  I think I'll accept your gracious offer and
       forget about this thing altogether.  I've got to really try and
       rein in this GTS problem, anyway...what do I need with a stomp
       box when I got a quattro? Let's see now, where was that guy with
       the Rickenbackers for sale....  *8')
       
       
       
       
       

    
    	No, not the end!
    
    	This sh*t happens on the sellers side too. After exchanging
    mail on an item, someone will state: "_Consider XX sold for $YY_", 
    which sounds pretty solid to me. So, you hold off other's interests 
    and, when they come to "pick it up", you get the 'ol "er, uh, it looks 
    [insert random subjective description] - I dont think I want it anymore".
    
    	To this, I say "Thanks a pantload"...
    
    	Spare me, please, of the hassle of even dealing with you, if you 
    cant "say what you mean and mean what you say". "I'll pick it up
    on Saturday" doesnt mean "I'll come by then and take a look to see if I
    still want it". As far as I'm concerned, this candle can *burn* at
    either end.  
    
    	Joe
    	
    
    	
    
    	

    I guess I've been real lucky.  I've sold a lot of stuff where I had to
    ship it *before* I sold it to a potential buyer.  So far, I've been
    treated *more* than fairly.  BUT, I *did* make sure all the variables
    concerning who was gonna do what when and for how much, were gone.  
    
    My advice, cover *your* ass completely ... and then try to do "the
    right thing".  Works for me ....
    
    Scary (who's sold a LOT of toys to you guys ... and I ain't heard
    nobody b*tchin' ....  8^)

    
    
      One thing I learned from Dan Eaton about selling equipment over
    the net..
    
      You ask the buyer for a mail message which formally states that
    he is agreeing to purchase equipment X for price Y.
    
      Sure it's not a legally binding contract, but it's the closest
    thing you can get to one....
    
      I was selling some equipment a while back and had a buyer. But
    he  refused to "close" the deal with me by sending this simple mail
    message I requested. Hey..someone else got it..at a *better* price.
    
    
    RichC
    

	Another interesting problem is one of pricing items for sale
on the net. This problem has been raging on USENET over the last few
days. 

	The basic issue was that someone posted some for sale items
at a certain price and then others posted that some of the prices
were out of line, quoting the "real" value of the items. 

	I have a real problem with people posting about for sale items,
especially when the poster has *no interest* whatsoever in the items. 
As far as I'm concerned a 3rd party has sabotaged my ability to sell
the items at a price I consider fair.

	I have, in the past, send Email to sellers saying their
prices were too high, but I'd never publicly comment about pricing. 

	What's your opinion?

-T

    
    Surely it is the buyer who must make the decision as to whether he/she
    thinks it is a fair price. I would have thought that everybody shopped
    around to determine a fair price? On the other hand I don't feel it is
    right to reply to someone's advert saying that you could get it cheaper
    elsewhere (although this is exactly what some of you did to the chap
    who started this whole conversation off, but I guess that was an object
    lesson) as for sending them mail saying 'I think you may be a little
    off on the value of that widget your selling', I think thats OK, but I
    could guess that some people might think, 'well your not interested in
    it, if I find someone stoopid enough to pay what I am asking then thats
    their problem'
    
    just my humble opinion,
    
    J

    I figure if possible *buyer* enters a reply asking if anyone knows what
    something is worth or what a new one is worth, to me that's OK.  As far
    as someone coming out of the blue and saying something is overpriced,
    I think that's out of line.  Let the buyer beware (read: do the
    research ...)
    
    Scary

RE: Replying to sale messages about the seller's prices...

	Well, gee, guys, where were you all in USENET while the battle has 
been raging?  If you really feel that way, PLEASE speak up!

	Dan

        Dan,
        
        Which USENET file is it? rec.music. ??
        
        Andy
        

re: Dan

	I do agree with you Dan, but have a heck of a time actually
posting to USENET.


re: group

	rec.music.makers, I believe.

    I'd have to say that at this point, it probably wouldn't do any good to
    have anyone back my points.  The general populous in USENET feel that
    buyer's "rights" far outweigh seller's "rights" (for courtesy,
    price-setting, etc.).
    
    I'd have to say that anyone that's been around very long in the USENET
    is probably not going to choose to post their sale items there.  It'll
    be their loss for the attitude they foster.
    
    	Dan
    

    About making postings...
    
    	I've found that if you have a long posting to make, its best to
    write it up ahead of time (spawn a process) and then enter the response
    instantaneously.  Doing it this way has been very successful for me, it
    doesn't allow the time-out limits to creep up on you.
    
    	Dan

    Can you tell me how to get an ad on USENET...I have a Trace Elliot bass
    amp to sell.

    You need to get a hold of VNEWS (for terminals) or XRN (for
    workstations) to access it.  The newsgroup you would post that in is
    "rec.music.makers"
    
    Mike

    You can post to USENET without a news server.
    
    DECWRL::"rec.music.makers@usenet"
    
    DECPA:: is an alternate node.
    
    						Brian

    I think CRL:: can be used now too.
    
    Mike

     Wow....No notes on the infamous Hondo or Gran Prix guitars, I wonder
     if people are just ashamed to admit they have owned one in the past.
     I,ve personally butched more than a few for parts and done Jimi
     Hendrix Guitar sacrifices with them.

    I've never owned a Hondo or Gran Prix guitar, but I do own a Hondo 
    Banjo. it's not bad for the money, but it needs better tuners, 
    especially the 5th string tuner. I haven't had time to play it for
    quite a while. Someday when I get the urge to play it, I'll replace
    all the tuners on it.
    
    Mark

    Yeah, there's a `HONDO' note ....
    
    .... but you have to do a `DIR/TITLE=CHARVEL' to find it !   8^)
    
    I've owned 4 Hondo's in my past ...
    
    	- a black LP Custom copy (during a concert at a high school, I went
          back behind my Marshall stack, took off my *real* LP Custom,
          switched guitars, came back out and smashed it to bits ... the
    	  other band members didn't know I had it back there - they were
    	  a little shocked ...)
    	- a cherry sunburst LP copy (bought it for $50 at a swap meet,
          played it for 3 years in working bands, sold it for $200 ... it
          played and sounded every bit as good as the LP Studio I used to
          have)
    	- Flying V Copy (had a warped neck, sounded and played terrible)
    	- Alembic Copy (neck through body, humbuckers with coil taps,
    	  double cutaway, beautiful woodgrain .... sold it for a LOT
    	  more than I paid for it ... wish I had that one back too ...)
    
    For the money, I think Hondo's are light years ahead of similar
    `cheapo' guitars ... ya gotta shop araound for 'em though ...
    
    Scary

    
    
    		Speaking of cheapos, I ran across a genuine Tiesco del
    	Rey this weekend. I had forgotten that the necks were made from
    	95 pieces of wood laminated together. And those pickguard graphics
    	just can't be beat! Real mother-of toilet seat inlay. :-)
    
    	DonH
    

    
    
    There is a guitar shop in Farnham in the UK that has a *very* early
    Silvertone guitar (with what looks like some sort of fabric binding)
    and a very early Silvertone valve amp (with about 3 tubes) unfortunatly
    I don't think they are for sale....I would have bought them just for
    the rarity/novelty value.
    
    Am  I right in assuming that Silvertone's were never sold in the UK.
    
    Oh and I also had a go on a Ibanez Jem 777 (I think) that used to
    belong to Steve Vai (it was signed on the back) I seem to recall the
    store owner told me he had it imported from Daddy's somewhere in the
    US............horrible colour..bright yellow with vivid pink knobs etc.
    
    J 

    Unless Sears Roebuck had stores in the UK, I doubt Silvertones were
    sold over there, but Danelectro, who made the stuff, must have sold
    there as I've seen numerous pictures of UK bassists with Dan-o
    longhorns.
    
    						Brian