Conference napalm::guitar

    No truer words were ever spoken !  My hearing curve looks almost
    *exactly* like yours .... I suffer some of the same problems too.
    
    I find that listening to talk on the TV gets on my nerves BAD !  Music
    doesn't bother me though.  I also don't listen to music as loud as I
    used to, and I encourage the guys in my band to learn "down".  
    
    Scary (wise too late ...)

My brother suffered some hearing loss (works at GM). What he did was
wear some sort of ear protection at work and at home (lawn mower, hand
drill etc). He found his hearing returned substantially with this. I
know it isn't the same with ear protection (i like it load too), but
there is no point in going deaf at 50, is there!

 mark

    
    	RE: .0  
    
    
    	Thanks a lot for the sincere advice and high "give a shit" factor
    	for your fellow guitarists.  I shall take your well meaning advice
    	to heart.
    
    	-pat

    In response to -1, some clarification is needed for all readers
    of this conference:
    
    >My brother suffered some hearing loss (works at GM). What he did was
    >wear some sort of ear protection at work and at home (lawn mower, hand
    >drill etc). He found his hearing returned substantially with this.
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    INCORRECT!  EAR DAMAGE IS PERMANENT!!!
    
    What your brother ears have done is grown accustomed to the damage
    done to them, and thus after time the damage/loss becomes less
    noticable!
    
    I know, I have severe damage in my left ear...for a while, it really
    bugged me, I heard at two different levels.  Now, I don't notice it,
    but I know for a fact that the left ear has not headled itself.
    
    Just FYI/Clarification for our readers...once you screw up your ears,
    it's permanent!
    
    HEARING PLUG NOTE:
    
    The foam-rubber ones you roll up and insert in your ears are the best
    kind available!!  This is what OSHA recommends (I used to work for
    them) to all their clients working in high db areas for long periods of
    time.  The trick is to seal the ear cavity as much as possible.  Those
    SONIC II's...supposed to be the best, and cost like $12.00, but if they
    don't fit your ear EXACTLY, forget it...they're pretty much worthless.
    Also, the foam rubber ones should be discarded after one use.  Finger
    dirt and ear wax can hinder the elasticity of the foam rubber with
    time, thus not sealing your ear canal properly.  That is the main
    point, sanitary reasons are also a consideration.
    
    
    

    Unfortunately, this sounds all too familiar. Over the past few years
    my hearing has gone downhill quite a bit. I hear lows and highs OK, but
    the mid-range is terrible. I find that I can't follow a conversation
    very well if there is any background noise (I resort to the "nod &
    smile" tactic, even though I haven't a clue as to what was just said).
    I have a lot of trouble understanding my 4 year-old daughter unless she
    speaks up. I won't even go into the battle of the TV volume control.
     I've tried to convince our sound person that the monitors
    do not need to be excrutiatingly loud to be effective. Unfortunately,
    these pleas have (*sorry for the pun*) fallen on deaf ears. 
    I have tried to use earplugs onstage, but I can't get used to singing
    with them in. Does anyone else have this problem the earplugs ??
    
    
    /Bill

re: .5
   Yeah, I tried using Sonic II's years ago and found I couldn't even play
   properly with them in.  They act like the world's largest compressor, so
   you get no sense of dynamics, even between playing rhythm and lead.

   For those who might not be familiar with them, Sonic II's contain a small
   metal diaphram that closes on sharp, loud "impact" type sounds, like a
   bass drum, or a gunshot.  The diaphram then slowly opens as the volume
   decays. Problem is, if you're playing loud the thing will keep closing and
   opening, and you get no sense of you guitar's volume relative to the other
   instruments.

re: .0
    Thanks for sharing that.  It certainly gives one something to think 
    about.  I've noticed some of those symptoms too, but assumed it was
    "old age" (at 30?).

    -- Sam

    >In response to -1, some clarification is needed for all readers
    >of this conference:
    
    >>My brother suffered some hearing loss (works at GM). What he did was
    >>wear some sort of ear protection at work and at home (lawn mower, hand
    >>drill etc). He found his hearing returned substantially with this.
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    >INCORRECT!  EAR DAMAGE IS PERMANENT!!!
    
    I agree that EAR DAMAGE is permanent, but HEARING LOSS may not be.
I'm not a doctor and can only quote my brother. His improvement was not
just his opinion. He had his hearing checked and after wearing ear
protection for 6 months, it measured better (not perfect, but better).
I'm not advocating that wearing ear protection after extreme DB
exposure will cure all, just that constant protection may allow some
hearing to return.

I know that after i play for a while, my hearing is somewhat deadened
for a time. I assume that it returns to normal, but as you said, i
would get used to it very quickly. The only true measure is to have
them checked and then rechecked after a period of time.

    mark

PS he could have been pulling my leg too, but i don't think so

    Re: .7
    
    This is correct.  I spent four years in the Army Signal Corps working
    on telephone communications.  It was quite common to hear two tones in
    the work area all day long , 1 KHz test tones and the 2600 Hz signal
    used to send dial pulses between branch exchanges.  
    
    On leaving the army, I had to take a hearing test as part of my exit
    physical.  I had notches at 1000 and 2600 Hz of about 6 db.  A hearing
    test a few years later showed these to have been reversed.
    
    Thanks for the reminder, it's been about three years since my last
    test.  BTW, that test was made by a young guy wearing two hearing aids. 
    He told me he was 28 years old.  I asked him why he needed the aids,
    he said he had been a guitar player.
    
    						
    						Brian
    

    In regards to .6 & .7
    
    If anyone has measured - X db's at Z hz ...then retests and Z hz is now
    + Y db's...then there wasn't any damage originally done to the ear to
    cause the deficiency in - X at Z hz!
    
    What I was trying to say is once you have done damage to your ear,
    there is no "mending" process...your ear tissue is not like your
    skin...whereas if you cut or bruise it, it will head with new skin. 
    The damage done to the tissues and cartilage in the ear canal IS
    PERMANENT...period.  Now, there is a condition called 'hearing
    fatigue', which sounds like the case in .6 and .7...where there was no
    permanent damage done.  But conditions like tinnitus, and midrange
    deficiencies, are non-reverseable conditions, where one can only stop
    or slow the decomposition of the ear canal, not reverse it.  
    
    I'm not trying to be a hard-a$$ here folks...I just don't want anyone
    getting the impression that they can go home and turn their stereo up
    to 120db's for long periods of time, and then think "Oh, if I just wear
    these ear plugs all day long between listening sessions, I'll never
    loose my hearing because it will mend while I'm wearing these ear
    plugs"
    
    ...WRONG!

    
    I am a little worried about all this (read lots).
    
    How much noise is 'excessive' I like listening to loud music, but my
    idea of loud might not be your idea of loud. I have been to one conecrt
    where my ears rang for two days afterwards (what do expect from
    Motorhead?) and I guess thats bad news, but other than that how do you
    know that you are damaging your hearing??
    
    Confused.
    
    J.

    Your hearing will adjust to loud noises for brief periods of time, it's
    the long term/chronic stuff that ruins your hearing.
    
    The safety folks at your site could probably give you MORE than enough
    info on safe db's and safe exposure times.  I would also wager that
    they'd gladly give ya earplugs too - I know they have done that here.
    
    Scary

    >How much noise is 'excessive' I like listening to loud music, but my
    >idea of loud might not be your idea of loud. 
    
    OSHA's guidelines for db exposure consist of the following to 
    prevent ear damage:
    
    Constant 80db -- No longer than 2 hours
    
    Constant 85db -- No longer than 1 hour
    
    Constant 90db -- No longer than 30 minutes
    
    Constant 95db -- No longer than 15 minutes
    
    ...you can guess anything over and above that!
    
    RE: Ringing in ears after concert.
    
    When your ears ring, it is an indication that permanent ear damage has
    occured.  The ringing will soften over time, but this does not mean the
    ear has "healed" itself.  The more exposure the ear receives, the
    longer (and louder) your ears will ring.  This is a condition called
    Tinnitus.  FYI -- A severe case of Tinnitus will give an indivual the
    symptoms of a screaming loud ringing in their ears all day, all night,
    every day, year-in, year-out, etc. 
    

	Some of the following is repeat info - I wrote it while the network here
was down...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	This discussion creeps up periodically, and the information you're
seeking has been posted in various locations across the network.  DSSDEV comes
to mind as one place to look.

	The thing I remember most about these seasonal discussion is that long
exposure to various levels of SPL are a big cause of hearing damage.  You can 
listen to medium loud music for longer than you can to loud music, but there
comes a point where the damage can be the same.  i.e., lets say you play your
music on your home stereo at 80db for two hours...  that can cause just as much
damage as 1/2 hour of 100db (these numbers are only there for example, they are
not necessarily accurate).

	I went out to Radio Shack and bought their sound pressure level meter
the last time I read this kind of discussion.  I was shocked to see how little
sound it takes (by my own frame of reference) to peg the meter!  Just playing a
tape in your car (up enough to hear it over the travel noise) for extended
length of time can cause permanent damage!  You better believe I wear ear plug
all the time now when I mow the lawn!

	Some time back in Electronic Musician magazine, Kerry Livgren (formerly
of Kansas) wrote a Letter_to_the_Editor to tell his sad tale of hearing damage
It seems he was getting up on the morning of a mixdown session and he was
accosted by a painfully loud sensation in his ears.  He went to a specialist and
was told of permanent ear damage (and I got the impression the type of pain he
experienced that morning would be a part of his life from that time on).  This
is nothing to scoff at.  

	I for one am glad that this discussion resurfaces from time to time as 
its easy to forget, especially now that I have been getting more into amplified
guitar.  I have never been a loud musician in comparison to much of what I hear
from others, but you'd be surprised how low a level of sound (comparitavely
speaking) can damage the musician's most precious sense!

	I strongly advise musicians to buy one of the Rat Shack meters (cost
around $30), look at the charts included in the instructions and run some tests
in your everyday listening environment (as well as during your practice
sessions).  Its a real eye opener (and hopefuilly, an ear saver! 8^)

	Dan

PS  There's an 800 number you can call to have a simple (non-diagnostic)
hearing test.  In MA, its 1-800-222-EARS.  If you call it from out of the area,
they will refer you to a local testing sight.  In MO, they told me to call
1-800-782-6457.

    As with most things, everyone has different tolerance levels.  Most
    people will experience hearing damage over time, but some people are
    more succeptable to it.  Be careful, you never really know...
    
    I have one ear which only operates at about 60% efficiency, and much of
    this is in unusable frequency ranges.  It's not due to abuse, but
    disease which was corrected (too late for full recovery) with surgery.
    
    I consistantly wear the little foam ear plugs when I play, especially
    in a band context.  I also wear them when I go to loud clubs.  It took
    quite awhile to get used to playing when them in, but now that I have,
    the only detrimental thing I could say about it is that it tends to
    pull off more of the high and upper midrange frequencies then the
    others, so adjust your tone (at lower volume levels) before you put in
    the earplugs otherwise you'll end up with too much treble/presence.
    
    I generally listen to music at very low volumes.  Some people can't
    understand this, but I've gotten accustomed to being able to hear it
    well at low volumes (often very low volumes) and I prefer it that way. 
    I get uncomfortable when someone plays music too loud anymore.
    
    Greg (who wants to keep what he has left of his hearing)

    Boy does this topic hit home.  PROTECT you ears.  Can you imagine what
    it's like to sit at a club, the girl at your left talking to the girl
    on your right, and you can't understand a word either one said??  It's
    a lousy feeling, one that I go thru all the time.  I have been to the
    doctor's too and had my graphs done.  Audio trauma he called it.  It
    really sucks.  When I watch tv, I have to pay realy close attention to
    what I see, because it may have to make up for what I don't hear. 
    There are also times when you'll talk to a person who's voice pitch 
    happens to be in the range where your hearing is the worst.  If I knew
    then what I know now, I would have done something about it.  If you
    don't have any damage yet, then you just can't imagine how frustrating
    it can be.  PLEASE protect your hearing.
    
    Chris D.

    
        
    10db	Anechoic room
    20db	Quiet Whisper
    30db	Soft Music
    45db	Average Residence
    60db	Background Music
    65db 	Conversation	
    75db 	Average Factory
    80db 	Loud Orchestra
    90db	Start of Unsafe Levels
    100db	Riveter
    110db	Thunder/Amplified Rock Music
    125db	Jet Airplane
    130db 	Pain Threshold
    140db	50Hp Siren
    
    Edd

    
    Sigh...I hate even talking about this but....
    
    re. -1 ears ringing for 2 days.... A hearing specialist (I've been to
    4 of them in the last 2 years) told me that such experiences definitely
    do damage to your hearing, the longer the ringing occurs after the
    incident, the more damage probably was done. 
    
    Take it from a person who has been diagnosed with abnormal hearing loss
    due to sensory neural damage... Don't subject yourself to ear-splitting
    volumes like that!!!! IT IS DAMAGING YOUR HEARING!!! If it means not
    going to a mega-watt rock concert, don't go.
    
    My situation is a little different in that the cause of damage has 
    never been really pinpointed. A severe inner ear infection definitely 
    caused damage (just my luck), but some was due to listening and
    playing excessively loud music. I don't listen to very loud music,
    and haven't done so for quite awhile... ever since my interests
    turned to jazz... 
    
    I could go on and talk about this some more but I'd rather not. 
    
    Heed the warnings written in the base not. Technology has not yet 
    come far enough to provide miracle cures for hearing loss, and it may
    never. PROTECT YOUR HEARING!!!
    
    	Phil

    An interesting exercise is to take a db meter and measure
    a drummer playing unaccompanied. The drummer in my band
    (who doesn't really hit that hard) was pushing over well
    over 100 db. This was standing right next to him with the 
    cymbals going, etc.
    
    You can imagine what happens when you add in a few amps...
    I have Sonic IIs on my keychain, and they've come in handy
    on several occasions. It might not look cool, but I'd rather
    be able to enjoy music for along time to come. I'm convinced
    that some soundmen are deaf too, but that's another topic.
    
    -Tom

    Re: .0
    
    Thanks for entering that.  I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.
    
    Looks like I'm going to buy some of those plugs.  My problem is
    playing/listening at low levels.  I like to crank it up when I like
    something.  Walkmans can be dangerous in this respect.
    
    Thanks again for the warning,
    Mike

After about 14 yeras of playing, sometimes loud.. I've not noticed
anything,,,,,,

But again,, I think I'll go get iot checked..  Sometimes things degrade
slowly so ya don't notice....


/ray

    RE: Mikey H
    
    Walkmans are the WORST...as they direct sound pressure directly into the
    ear canal, with nowhere else to go!  Why I don't use em...certain deth.

    
    	Actually, some walkman type headphones do not fire directly into
    	the ear (some shoot at a rt angle to the canal).  That is not to
    	say they can't be damaging.  However, if used moderately, they
    	aren't any worse than other types of exposure.

    Man, is this ever a scary topic.  I had my first real bad scare last
    summer at the Eric Johnson concert at the Paradise in Boston.  I even
    remember thinking about bringing earplugs beforehand, but thought "nah,
    Eric's a 'musical' kind of guy.  He won't be that loud".  Wrong!  What
    I had forgotten is that Eric likes to run his Marshalls full out for
    tone.
    
    We were standing right in front of Eric (great seats, huh!).  But to
    be honest, it was loud everywhere in the club that night.  After the
    first song, I knew things were a bit excessive because my chest felt
    like I'd just gone a round with Mike Tyson.  I stuffed some pieces of
    napkin in my ears and enjoyed rest of the show without much problem.
    Except outside the club, when I took the paper out of my ears, it felt
    like they were still plugged.  My ears rang severely for two weeks
    afterwards.  I had the plugging sensation and distortion (like a
    blown speaker) of any noise louder than normal conversation; this lasted
    a week.  To this day, I still have low level ringing in both ears, a high
    freq tone in the left and a low freq tone in the right.  It never goes away.
    And I never had it before that night.
    
    I found out later what I had probably experienced was called threshold
    shift.  When subjected to a sudden loud noise, the ear can lowers it's
    perception of sound levels, so that potentially damaging volumes don't
    sound as loud as they otherwise would.  The napkins were giving me
    little if any protection, but it didn't seem loud enough to do any harm
    because my level perception had shifted down.
    
    So I guess what I'm saying is, watch out.  Even if you've never had
    problems with loud music before, it can happen in just one time.  Use
    more objective measures to determine if you're exposing yourself to
    dangerous sound levels (the feeling in my chest should've been a
    clue); you can't always depend on your ears.
    
    /rick

    
    	Geez Rick, the *same* thing happened to me, Jerry and my wife 
    	at an EJ show.  We were dead center up front!  My ears rang
    	for 2 days and the morning after the show I had to teach a class
    	on resume writing.  I'll bet they thought I was yellin' at 'em.

    re .23 .24
    
    I had my plugs in for that show, and I still put my hands
    over my ears when he took a solo. The plugs that I have
    supposedly cut 30db. Everyone around me did the same. 
    You'd think EJ might get the hint when a dozen people in
    the audience have their fingers in their ears!
    
    -Tom 

    
    
    
    	Yeah, Dave... as has been said before, thanks for sharing your
    story!  I know it must hurt, and my heart goes out to you.
    
    
    Steve 

    This brings up another interesting point:  If so many guitarists know
    about this, why do they subject their fans/audience to it?
    
    If everyone learned to play "lower", everyone would enjoy the
    experience more.
    
    Mike

    Yo Buck,
    
    Is this the beginning of a new softer, gentler, QUIETER Buck?  ;-)
    
    Hope so, because we're getting together this weekend this weekend and last
    time we got together at my place the police showed up too.
    
    We gotta keep it in check coz the PA ain't mine and I don't wanna
    push it.

    Sorry db...
    
    My Marshall sounds like a Boogie   _    /| with the Master Volume below
                                       \'o.O'    
                                       =(___)=   Aack!!!
                                          U      
    
    5, so I had this dude solder it as a "start" position!
    

    Hey Rick C.,
    
    Remember the Danny Gatton show??  OUCH!

    
    I've been wearing Sonic IIs in clubs for what must be over 12 years
    now, ever since that nite at the Rat in '77 when three bands from Detroit 
    (the Traitors, the Pigs, and the N@#$ers (5 ludicrously conked African 
    Americans wailing George Clintonesque urban assault music, loudest and 
    best of the nite -- I bet you can figure out the band's name, too))
    caused intense pain and loud ringing in my left ear for two weeks.
    They work.  I can still hear; ear tests have confirmed that I suffer 
    from slight-but-not-bad mid-range deficiency, but my ears  haven't gotten 
    appreaceably worse in the past decade, and up until 2 years ago (when
    the eldest son arrived) I used to go out a lot.
    
    
    When I first started wearing the earplugs I felt all kinda self-concious
    putting them in when a band came on.  Didn't want anyone to think
    I was a wimp.  After a while, I didn't care anymore, because I noticed
    that if a band started up and I left them out, my ears would physically
    HURT at what used to be "normal" club sound pressure.  My ears had 
    become more sensitive from using the Sonic IIs.  Since I don't like
    pain much, I lost what was left of my self-conciouseness about walking
    around a bar with hearing protection.
    
    After a few years, I noticed more and more people at clubs wearing some
    kind of protection -- the bartenders and waitpersons, especially.
    Finally, one nite several years ago I was watching (I think it was, but
    even tho my ears are ok, my brain has turned to oatmeal . . .)the
    Cramps at the Channel, and chanced to look around at the people
    standing nearby.  I had a good spot, I guess, because on one side were
    several of the ultra-cool DJs from several of the ultra-cool stations
    in town, and on the other side were some of the coolest musicians who
    played in some of the coolest bands that existed at the time.  The
    majority of both of these groups had either foam or Sonic II ear
    protection inserted.  I remember thinking back to a time when I thought
    that ear protection was un-cool, and being very amused. 
    
    But anyway:  who cares about cool?  SonicIIs have worked very well
    for me for a long time.  If they fit your particular ears, I can't 
    recommend them highly enough.
    
    
    Dave
    
    
    Oh yeah:  they are sometimes hard to find in music stores.  Gun shops
    and pilot stores (at small airports) generally keep them in stock.
    

    I can tell you first hand what Tinitus is like.
    It is absolutely NO FUN at all to have your ears ring
    ALL the time.
    
    What a lot of people don't know is the sounds you CAN'T HEAR are
    doing the most damage...Kinda like those silly dog whistles ?  
    You can't hear it the sound, but it's rippin' your ears up.
    
    
    I have a REAL bad time playing with earplugs, as I generally sing
    backup/harmony vocals and all I can hear with earplugs in is my voice
    vibrating my jaw bone.  I need  to practice this, because I know my
    hearing is ruined already, and I don't want it to get worse.
    
    Ever had your spouse come into the room and say, "Boy that TV sure is
    loud..." or have to repeat things to you (yeah, just like in that
    "Miricle Ear" commerical - "He said "Thousand Islands, French and
    Vinigrette".
    
    Stupid (understatement) things I've done:
    
    -Fired a .357 magnum with no earplugs - once.  That really hurt!
    -Entertained volume wars with 100wt+ guitar rigs (remember these
     Scary?)
    -Played with/stood near drummers ;) - Those cymbals are the worst.
    
    Anyone ever notice how you tend to EQ in more highs ?
    
    RE: Sound levels.
    
    Most live bands play at extremely dangerous levels - If you think your 
    playing pretty quietly check this out:  My owners manual for my Kawasaki 
    KDX200 (with stock exhaust) *idles* at 91 Db(a)'s.  The KDX is a very 
    quiet bike.  My lawn tractor makes more noise...
    
    jc (Ears ringin' as we speak)

    That's why there's such a quest for tone ... it's there, we just can't
    tell !
    
    re: volume wars .... nobody wins ....  8^)
    
    Scary

Well I raised this issue a year or so ago in another note (perhaps another 
notesfile?). Me I'm going in one ear, the other seems to be ok so far.
But these days I play with the loudest drummer (actually band) I've ever 
worked with, outrunning a 2000W PA system at rehersals. I can't wait for my 
next hearing test. 

I've tried to use earplugs in the past, I just can't seem to  hear anything
if I do. I guess eventually Pete Townshend and I will have another thing
in common...deafness...


dbii

    >I guess eventually Pete Townshend and I will have another thing in
    >common...deafness...
    
    What's the other thing you have in common with Pete?

    
    	RE: .35
    
    	Oooooohhhhhh!!  8^)
    
    							GTI
    

    re 23 24 25...
    
    	I remember coming out of that EJ concert too with ringing ears,I
    was kinda shocked as it had been quite a few years since this has
    happened me.....  I remember seeing Robben F and not having the 
    same effect.....yet the proximity was the same...... Eric is just
    plain loud.....

>    My owners manual for my Kawasaki  KDX200 (with stock exhaust) *idles*
>    at 91 Db(a)'s. 
    
    ...and you should hear the CYCLE!
    
    ;^)

    Re:  -1
    
    Too  funny! ;-)
    
    Speaking of which, I bet that's why Coop had his stereo cranked at his
    birthday party a couple weeks ago.  I had to read Greg's lips to
    understand what  he  was  saying ;-)
    
    Mike

    I had to insert my Sonic IIs to protect myself.

    Whoooopssss, I guess I made a little typo there eh ?
    
    Pardon the brain-fart.
    
    :)
    

    
    
                        Huh?

       
       
       
       I am really glad that the author of the base note took the time
       to describe his plight.  I knew I was taking chances with some of
       this stuff, but I didn't realize that my inability to understand
       people talking when there was much background noise was a symptom
       of hearing loss.

       You just postponed my hearing aid purchases by at least a couple
       of years!!
       
       
       

    
    	I'm scheduled to have a hearing check next Monday at Health 
    	Services.  Should be interesting to see (hear) how much I've 
    	gone down hill since 8+ years ago...

re: what else do Pete and I have in common?

we both cut our hands up doing power chords
we both play guitar fairly well :-)
we both like Pete's music 
we were both at the same Who concert :-)

guess I'm starting to lose it and it's only monday....

dbii

	I've stopped playing with a real drummer (this gets rid of a lot of
	long term ringing in the ear closest to the cymbals. My drum samples
	(on a Roland MT-32 and U-110) are volume control-able and my
	sequences reduce the strain without losing the right sound at an
	acceptable volume. As much as people don't seem to like synthetic
	bands, they have some advantages over the long term.

	My ears ring for days on occasion, but this seems mostly related to
	high frequency power hits (like massive levels of microphone feedback
	5 or 6 times in in row) and other high energy high frequency stuff.

	I also have a major problem with ear wax build up. Of course I've
	been playing in some form of a band since 1964, and I used to play
	much louder then than I do now. Ask my wife, I can't seem to hear 
	certain people when they talk anymore, I'd guess that thier voices
	fall into the range where the damage it probably the worst. 

	My feeling is that you don't have to play loud to enjoy music. I
	used to think otherwise, but don't anymore.

							Jens

To All,

	I have not got any more to add since writing the base note, but I 
would like to say how glad I am that this topic is generating concern and 
thought among the musician community. It made my day that some of you are
re-thinking your audio environment and considering hearing tests.

Although it has alarmed and educated me to learn that many of you already have 
impared hearing, it also gave me hope since you are also still enjoying an 
active musical "career".  

My thanks to the concern shown me in the replies and to say that, rather than
being a good samaritan, sharing this has been a therapeutic experience and 
has enabled me to take a "Oh well what the ****, get on and enjoy playing"! 
(but with sensible sound level), attitude.


Keep talking, keep playing, keep hearing.

Dave

    FWIW, I made everyone in my latest band read your base note.
    It sobered us up quite a bit...
    
    jc (Practicing at over 100db(A), Starting to practice with ear plugs)
    

Does anyone know if loud volumes affect various people differently? In other
words, are some more sensitive than others? I had my ears checked out this
morning, and despite all the abuse I've put them through (and that's *quite*
a lot!), they said I still had 100% hearing in both ears, at 20db (which I
guess is quite good).

Just wondering why some people have trouble, and I'm not. (Yet my ears ring
after a lot of shows, and even after playing at home sometimes!)

Am I just lucky?

alan

    Maybe it would be a good idea to extract this whole topic and put it in
    other notes, like Heavy_Metal, Music, etc.  I wouldn't object to having
    my replys copied.
    
    Chris D.

    Re: -1
    
    Yes it would.  I think AUDIO has been over this topic at least once
    too.
    
    Mike

     I remember reading something a few years ago that said loud is
    bad, loud and smoking is wicked. Seems upon loud noises the ears
    blood flow is increased to provide oxygen to the cells to prevent/
    reduce damage. When a person smokes, the carbon monoxide built up
    in the blood and the constriction of blood vessels (from nicotine)
    hinder this oxygen boost to the affected cells.
    
    chuck (a victim of loud factories, concerts, stereos, gun fire
           and etc., while smoking)
                                   

    re -1
    I was told by an audiologist that drinking and loud music is really
    bad, because the muscle in the ear that protect the ear from loud
    sounds (I believe by expanding) become limp and does  not 
    perform it function thus exposing the ear to  even more of the
    sounds/noise.
    
    Errol   

    no, loud music, drinking, AND smoking ;-)

    Hey, it's the 90's .... sex kills too ....

    Join a monastery........
    I've experienced an increase in sound level when I had a few drinks
    taken....
    		Nice to know the reason why.
    	Looks like Mott the Hoople were wrong about the "98 decible 
    freaks" in "The golden Age of Rock and Roll".
    Will there be a movement against loud music to parallel the movement
    against public smoking? I should think that legislation will soon be
    made to regulate sound levels down to safer levels.
    Will there be an outbreak of lawsuits against music venues if people
    realise their hearing was damaged??
    

>    Will there be a movement against loud music to parallel the movement
>    against public smoking? 
    
    some areas are seeing this already.  In Phoenix, you can receive up to
    a $50 fine for blasting your car stereo too loud.  This was mainly
    implemented because of teenagers that crank their stereos in traffic
    and endanger themselves as well as others by not hearing what's around
    them.
    
    Mike

    On the other hand, I've played in clubs that have "minimum"
    standards for PA gear...Like they'll come over and count your
    power amps and add up the outputs...
    
    Anyone else seen this ?

    Just the opposite (but look where I live ...).  Usually I play in clubs
    where they'll tell you to turn down before you finish getting all the
    gear out of the vans.
    
    And, if there's *anything* on stage that says Marshall, someone will
    probably tell you to cut it down before you snatch it out of standby.
    Marshalls *are* the bad boy amps of rock and roll ...
    
    Scary

    I was thinking of Chucks in Greenville.  They had a 2000watt minimum.
    AJ's did too...
    
    jc

    Take up classical guitar...
    
    The recent interview in GP with Pete Townsend was disturbing. They
    rehearsed with him separated in a soundproof booth. He blamed his
    hearing loss on headphone amps.

    Now Pete can say "I know what is to be a deaf woman, because
    I am a deaf woman. I refused to be classified as only a deaf
    man". 
    
    :^) 
    
    chuck
    

    Solution?....
    
    Bluegrass!!!!   ;^) x 10M
    
    					Cheers,
    					--Eric--

    
    THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE HEARING LOSS
    AND THERE ALOT OF REASONS WHY. MOST OF THE REASONS ARE VERY LOUD SOUND
    WAVES WE EXPOSE OUR EAR DRUMS TO, WHICH MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. BUT IN
    THE EAR CANAL ON THE EAR DRUM EVERY ONE HAS HAIR FIBERS THAT STAND UP
    AND WHEN SOUND ENTERS THE CANAL IT VIBRATES THESE HAIR TO PRDUCE SOUND
    AND THEN THE SOUND IS PASSED ON TO THE BRAIN. IF YOU GET ANY DAMAGE TO
    THESE HAIRS IN THE EAR WILL CAUSE A GOOD DEAL OF PROBLEMS, LIKE RINGING
    IN THE EAR, SOME TIMES MORE THAN OTHER TIMES, FOR SOME THE RINGING NEVER
    STOPS, BUT THIS TO ALOT OF DOCTORS THEY CALL THIS HUNTERS EAR. BECAUSE
    OF THE NERVE DEAFNESS TO THE HAIR FIBERS. THIS STILL MEANS EVEN IF YOU
    PLAY LOUD MUSIC OR LISTEN TO LOUD MUSIC OR ANY KIND OF LOUD SOUND
    WAVES, YOU CAN AND WILL DAMAGE YOU HAIR FIBERS. SOME PEOPLE CAN HANDLE
    SOME EXPOSURE TO LOUD SOUND WAVES FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME, BUT FOR THE
    LONG EXPOSURE WILL DAMAGE THE HAIR FIBER. FOR A CURE, WELL THEY DO HAVE
    A CHEMICAL IN PILL FORM THAT CAN CALM DOWN THE RINGING IN THE EARS, BUT
    IT DOESN'T LAST VERY LONG ON MOST PEOPLE AND ALOT OF DOCTORS WANT TO
    SEE THIS DRUG BE PUT INTO A LIQUID FORM. OF COARSE THIS DRUG IS NOT ON
    THE MARKET  BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE TESTING STAGE, BECAUSE IT
    DOESN'T LAST. BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF
    DAMAGE TO THEIR EARS AND THIS CAUSES NERVE DEAFNESS, SOME CAN BE
    OPERATED ON AND WILL GIVE BACK ALOT OF HEARING, BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE OUT
    OF LUCK IN SOME CASES. THERE ARE ALOT OF COMPANIES THAT DO HAVE AID
    DEVICE THAT CAN CONTROL THE LOSS OF HEARING AND KEEP OUT EXCESSIVE LOUD
    SOUND WAVES TO PROTECT THE HAIR FIBERS. THERE IS ALSO ALOT OF EAR PLUGS
    ON THE MARKET THAT CAN PROTECT YOUR HEARING AND SOME PLUGS ARE MADE TO 
    LET SOME SOUND WAVES THROUGH TO BE HEARD BY THE EAR AND SOME COMPANIES
    MAKE EAR PLUG BY CUSTOM FITTING ONLY FOR YOUR EAR CANAL. THERE ARE ALSO
    SOME TYPES OF EAR DEVICE MADE TO CONTROL THE SOUND TO YOUR EAR SO YOU
    CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING HEARD BY THE EAR, OF COARSE IT DOESN'T
    AMPLIFY SOUND. ON THE RINGING PART MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO GET USE TO
    IT LIKE I HAVE AND IT HARD TO GET USE TO IT, BUT YOU CAN DO IT, EVEN MY
    EAR SPEICIALIST HAD THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH RINGING IN THE EAR. REMEMBER
    WE ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS AND PROTECTION IS THE BEST SOLUTION TO ANY
    ONES PROBLEM WITH THE EAR. TEACH YOUR KID ABOUT THE EARS NOW, BEFORE
    THEY HAVE PROBLEMS TOO, MOST KIDS GROWING UP DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR
    HEARING AND WELL LIKE US ALL HAVE THE PROBLEMS WITH THEIR HEARING.
    
    
                                                FSG

    I lost my hearing after reading .66!

    Re .66: The folks in .67 and .68 are giving you a little hint that 
    all uppercase text is considered 'shouting' in notes etiquette.  No
    big deal, but more people will read your reply if you go for some 
    lower case text.
    
    Regards,
    John

    Practise safe listening,
    wear a con...oops  earplugs. 
    ER-15 Musician Earplugs.
    
    errol
    

    what?

     good thing I had my earplugz in while reading .66
    :*)

    
    
           My eyes are ringing.....;^)
    
               

    In addition to using lower case, please also use paragraphs.
    
    I don't even know why I do it, but I next unseen over long
    one-paragraph notes.  I don't know why, but they are MUCH harder
    for me to read.

    This subject keeps coming up...
    
    There is an EXCELLENT article in this months Electronic Musician
    that talks about hearing loss and such.  It's really worth reading.
    
    jc

>      <<< Note 2111.76 by KDX200::COOPER "Let The Light Surround You!!" >>>

>    There is an EXCELLENT article in this months Electronic Musician
>    that talks about hearing loss and such.  It's really worth reading.
    

jc,

Is there new information in it?  If so, would you mind posting a quick 
summary?  Thanks.

Bob

re: .76

>    There is an EXCELLENT article in this months Electronic Musician
>    that talks about hearing loss and such.  It's really worth reading.
    
I assume you mean the June issue?  It really annoys me that everyone
else seems to get their music comix before I do!  Mind hasn't come 
yet! :-) :-)

-Hal

    I wouldn't say that there was anything NEW in there, except the
    speak about the HEAR foundation (musicians for better hearing?).
    It's very informative, and they talk about the different kind of
    hearing protection available, and about disease (Tinitus, Acute
    Sensitivity etc...).
    
    It's a 6 or 7 page article.
    
    jc

>But my ears still ring.  And when it gets real quiet, say, like at night when
>I'm lying in bed, it seems quite loud.
    
    Unfortunately, I was hit by this too earlier in the year.  Late at
    night, I hear it but it's not very loud.  I haven't played in about a
    year, but my car is to blame.  The sound insulation in the newer cars 
    are terrible for those that play their stereos loud. 

    About a year and a half ago I asked my family doctor to refer me to the
    local speech and hearing clinic for an audiogram... it was very
    thorough --- much more so than anything I ever had in the Navy --- 
    and cost me $50, of which JH picked up $-0-.  (HMOs may do this for
    free; that's not important.)
    
    As a sometime shooter and guitarist and blues fan, I wanted to get a
    baseline so that if I had problems in the future I would have some
    reference to compare it with.
    
    I would recommend doing this for anyone who wants either piece-of-mind
    or early diagnosis or both.
    \Gary

    Re: Andre's reply....
    
    I just had my hearing tested, and while I fell within a "normal" range
    of test reults, I have Tinnitus...BAD!  My ears ring constantly and it
    bothers me most at night, of course.  No cure, only treatments....wear
    protection (safe listening), ans use noise conditioners if you have
    trouble sleeping.  My ceiling fan makes a low level drone, and it
    obscures the ringing...puts me right to sleep.  The probable cause of
    my tinnitus, my TMJ, and Coops' rack!
    
    Steve (well my Kitty Hawk *did* crank some decibels...)
    

    RE: Dawg
    But not like that PV BAS*ARD you bought from Scary - Ouch!
    
    FWIW - I may have to quit this band I'm playing with.  Our drummer
    is one of those body builder types - of the 235lb variety.  He says
    he doesn't hit his drums hard at all (perhaps he doesn't, for a NORMAL
    human).  Anyway, it physically HURTS to be around his drums without
    plugs in your ears...Kinda like a .357 going off in your ear...
    He uses fiber marching heads and frickin' BATS to hit 'em with.
    
    He was over last night and he basically said the only way he could
    play quieter would be to alter his style - and said he wouldn't do
    that.  The worst of it is, he's the argumentative type.  Sat there
    and argued with me and the singer puke for *3* hours about him 'not 
    playing that loud'...  I mean te WHOLE BAND has spoken to him about 
    it, and he ain't listening...  FWIW - Just to balance out the sound
    and be heard, I bet we easily *practice* at 130db - thats easily the
    pain threshold...  He says it's just the room.  Well, I've practiced
    with two bands and FOUR drummers in this very same room.
    
    I wasn't just bitching for myself either, I was speaking on behalf 
    of the other players too.  Pisses me off.  I'm not getting any younger, 
    and my hearing isn't getting any better.
    
    jc (With high end loss, and tinnitus)
                                                            

    Now that you mention it, Jeff, Hunter probably contributed more to my
    tinnitus than anything.....the impact of his loud playing (drums) and
    the way his loud playing drove the entire band's volume up (trying to
    play over HIM!).  He was *soooo* deaf himself.....not to mention we was
    probably 235 lbs as well....with the biggest mitts this side of Texas.
    
    But you knew that!
    
    dawg

    Beware of cymbals.  Crashes and rides are typically up around ear
    level.  I think I've suffered the most onstage hearing damage from
    these.
    
    /rick

    re the drummer who cranks:  Could you point out it takes additional
    skill to crank at low volume?  My bands been trying to play more
    quietly but still keep the energy at full tilt boogie...and it's hard
    to do it!
    
    Wow, 130dB...as Buck would say, "That's fackin' loud!"  =8-0

    >>it takes additional skill to crank at low volume...
    
    so true.....I have alot of respect for many a blues band drummer I've
    seen who can play at "small club" volume and really *drive* the band's
    energy...it must be tough!
    
     

    
    
    It's just like my old junior high school gym teacher used to say: "If 
    you got 'em, wear 'em".  While he wasn't talking about ear protection,
    it makes sense to take care of your gear.  I think I surprised my
    Xmas-shopping relatives when I circled the expensive ear plugs on the
    shopping list.  The ones I got have a little case that fits on your
    keychain, and I use 'em anytime I'm going to be around something loud.
    
    

    RE: Dawg
    
    Yeh, Hunter was pretty tough on his heads, but this guy could show
    him a thing or two...  
    
    ..And I agree it takes more skill to finese your drums.  This guy is
    just pissin' me off.  He'd rather argue and be anal-rententive about
    drum head reactance and wood types than try to fix the problem...
    
    Speaking of cymbals - this guy uses Zildjian K Series (the LOUD ones).
    He's got *11* cymbals, not counting his hats, and he's split 3 of them
    since I've been jammin' with 'em.
    
    jc (Frustrated)

    RE: .91
    
    Are those Sonic II's ??
    
    jc

    IM(not so)HO, anyone who cracks good cymbals is hitting the darn
    things way to hard, or has the wing nuts on the cymbal stand screwed
    on too tightly.  I NEVER split one in many years of playing drums (even
    when I was young and foolish).
    
    As mentioned earlier, cymbals are right at ear level, which makes them
    particularly dangerous.  They also have tons of overtones that assault 
    your ears in the most sensitive frequencies.
    
    Make him play with brushes ;^)
    
    Jim 

    
    
    Yeah, Coop, they're those fancy Sonic jobs.  You have to stick them
    really far into the canal, which is a little uncomfortable at first,
    but you get used to them after a few minutes.  They're a lot better
    than the cheap little industrial ear protectors I used to use.
    
    I wouldn't use these for critical work (like mixdowns), but if I had to
    deal with a loud a**hole they'd be mandatory...in addition to a very
    loud stack pointed in his direction...
    
    

    I heard that.  I'm going to invest in some GOOD ear plugs....
    I've been using foam, but with those, I can't hear anything
    (except for my own voice, which is a drag when singing... :-)
    
    RE: Pointing the stack at him
    
    It's a thought...  Both Mark and I could make him bleed from his
    ears, but I think that would be counter productive.  I just wish
    he'd listen to us and simmer down a little...
    
    jc
      

jc - you need a new drummer more than you need ear protection.  ;-)

Jim

    Well, perhaps both...
    
    :-)
    

    
I would like some advice on a problem with loud music and its effect on
my hearing. Sorry this is a bit long, but I think all the facts are relevant to
my questions.

I play in a rock-blues band since last October. As bands around here go, we are
not particularly loud, but the rehearsal volume makes me uncomfortable. Having
read about ear damage, I decided to get earplugs. I got custom-made silicone
earplugs with a "volume control" which open or shuts them. They reduce the
sound a lot: more than the foam ones, for example, which I have also tried.

I got my hearing tested twice since I started rehearsing with the band  and was
told that there is no observable hearing loss. I am 41 (I don't know if
vulnerability to noise changes with age or not).

We played our first gigs recently. After the first gig, my right ear was
ringing next day. For the next gig, I made sure my earplugs were fully shut all
the time, and I was not uncomfortable with the sound level on the night,  but
afterwards my right ear had a slight noise in it which took a few days to go
away.  Also my inner ears (both ears) felt strange, as if there was water in
them, or an air pressure difference (like in a plane). We have an average of
about one gig a week for the next couple of months, so the noise exposure is
going to happen fairly often.

Nobody else in the band seemed to suffer - I asked them.

Now I listened to a very loud band in a bar about a year ago, and I think my
right ear has not been the same since. It seems very sensitive and the ringing
is easily set off. I have the impression it can be set off by only minutes or
even seconds of exposure to loud volume, so I have to be pretty quick putting
in the earplugs sometimes!

This ringing is only barely perceptible most of the time, but I find it makes
me depressed and bad-tempered - I fear permanent tinnitus even more than I fear
hearing loss. I am also annoyed that although I take all the precautions I can,
I still suffer from the excessive volume, while nobody else does.

Questions:

1. I find it hard to believe that a person can have ears (or one ear) so
sensitive that even with pretty good earplugs he suffers (and presumably risks
hearing loss or tinnitus) more than people who don't wear earplugs at all.
However I can't argue with the ringing I hear the day after.  Has anyone else
had a similar experience? Or one ear which was sensitized and has always been
delicate since?

2. Is there any technical solution? The doctor said that sound also gets to
your ear by conduction from the skull bones around the external ear and that
obviously earplugs (which block only the ear canal) have no effect on this
conducted sound. To combat this, some people use big ear protector headphones
which cut down outside noise and can supply the output from the mixer at the
desired volume. Does anyone have any technical details or a brand name?

3. Am I running a risk of permanent tinnitus or hearing loss? Is this situation
dangerous: should I stop playing under my present circumstances, even with the
earplugs? From what I have read here, the answer is yes but I like to think
    there is a solution to this.
    
    
    Regards
    
    John

    
    
    		I'm sure a lot of it has to do with your subconcious
    (memory).  For instance,  I suffered some minor carbon monoxide
    poisoning back in 1985.  Still today, ANY amount of exhaust fumes
    will make me feel terrible, both physically and mentally.  I can
    only attribute it to my memory of the past illness/injury.  Perhaps
    you suffer from a similar affliction???
    
    		You probably did suffer some amount of ear damage while
    listening to that band last year.  It may seem surprising how little
    sound is needed to produce SPL in excess of 120db (which will normally
    cause hearing loss)  Most musicians (any kind of music) have hearing
    loss.  Some of it is temporary. (Your body builds a tolerance) and
    some is actual nerve damage and irreversable.  The only advice I can
    give is to turn it down and limit your exposure.  And make sure the 
    earplugs you wear are comfortable.
    
    
    Chris 

Well I can give you my feelings. I'm 41 now, I never had a problem with my
hearing until the last couple of years.

I have a permanent cas of tinnitus, those nasty ringings in the ear. My ears ring
at a very high pitch, somthing like what you hear from a TV (If you can hear
them yourself) and it never stops. I have a very serious notch in my left ear
at 3K where I can hear almost nothing. I have trouble hearing voices when there
is a fair amount of background noise (like when riding in a car). About 2 years
ago I decided to bite the bullet and protect myself and started wearing earplugs
There is no proven treatment for tinnitus, the most effective treatment is
masking, ie: you buy a little white noise generator so the ringing is masked.
There are a number of "folk remedies" herbal preperations, and if one is willing
to experiment you can import some "smart drugs" from the UK like Vinpocetine,
which according to the USENET tinnitus.FAQ may actually cure tinnitus. It's
permanent damage, and beyond the ability of medicine to treat at this time.

I tried foam, and everything that the music mail order places sold. The best
I found cheap were the HEAR plugs that Musician's Friend sells, they're pretty
good and are designed to give you 15db attenuation and hopefully a fuller range
of frequencies than a foam plug (YETCCH!). About a month ago I took the next 
step, made an appointment with an audiologist and got fitted for "musician's
filtered plugs". In this case I ordered 25db attenuation (15db wasn't enough).
My cost was about $120.00

Custom fitted plugs are nice, they fit you much better than the generic plugs.

If you play in a loud band (I never heard a quiet rock band) you should begin
to save your hearing early!

As my doctor told me "You were warned"

...but I didn't listen.

I wear plugs at concerts, rehersals gigs and in the computer room :-)

dbii

    In case the earplugs are not enough (as seems to be my case):
    
    I found an answer to my second question of reply .99  - there is a
    headphone which reduces external noise by 30-40dB. It is the
    Sennheiser NoisGard HDC200
    
    It costs 3475 Frs here in France so I would guess about $400 in the US.
    
    
    Has anyone else worn earplugs and found they are not enough?
    
    Regards
    
    John