Conference napalm::guitar

    I'm using a not totally configured rack. I've got two kitty preamps, a
    kitty patch bay and a quadraverb and a sp-1000 power amp.. eventually I'll 
    use a midi pedal to control the whole thing, I'm just not jumping on any 
    one pedal as of yet. I have some research to do yet on pedals and
    options.
    
    I find that I can get a fabulous sound with this setup, but that many
    times what sounds good effect wise is buried in the mush when I play
    with the band...dryer mixes result from every practice.
    
    FWIW dbii
    

    
    	first.... what kind of music are you going to be playing?.....
    

    Sounds like a job for a Roland GP16 or equivalent (if there is one).
    
    Re: MIDI pedal
    
    dbii, have you seen ART's new MIDI pedal, the X11?
    
    Mike

    Wow.  I just send mail to DBII about that ART pedal. I think we need a
    MIDI PEDAL TOPIC.
    
    Anyway, Taco, with all that high tech stuff in your rack why would you 
    want to mess with a "amp" ?  Like DBII, I have an ADA MP1 preamp,
    DSP128+, Hush IICX and Metaltronix SP1000 power amp also.
    
    The advantages with a rig like this are:
    
    1) Weight.  My whole rig weighs about 30 lbs.
    2) Adaptability-Versatility.  More than just 2 or three EQ settings.
    3) Stereo (if this is important to you...It is to me)
    4) Power (LOTS of power - 125 wpc into a 4 ohm load)
    
    If your into the sound of your amp, why muddy-it-up with FX ?  If you 
    want the Marshall sound, then your better off with a marshall.
    All the preamping seems redundant if you've got a decent amp already.
    Ergo, why use an ADA preamp if you've got a marshall ?
    
    If you like your amp, why not just get a Multi-FX gadget (take your
    pick - there's a glut on the market now) and run it in your FX loop ?
    
    jc (Who sez: MIDI/Multi-FX rigs aren't for everyone)

What works well for me:  

First what I use for amp/guitar, as you'll see it requires some
amounts of versitility.

Amps:
I have the older series Yamaha G100 212 and a G50 112. 
These are attached in a stereo config. via a DSP128+
 
Both amps have channel switching cap., cleant/distorted, 3 band parametric 

EQ. 
Guitars: an Ibanez Mc400, A fender Strat,  an Ibanez Lonestar elec 
Acoustic and a Casio MG510 midi guitar.  With all the different instruments 
I was looking for something that was versitile for all styles of play with 
all the various guitars, had to be programmable, and foot switches to run 
the rack were a must.

For effects, 

My primary effect unit is a digitech GSP128+.  This handles stereo split
to both amps, reverbs, chourus, flanging, multi-tape delay patterns, low 
pass filtration, some equalization.  and odd delay programs.
(this as mentioned previously does four effects at a time.)

Tends to handle Reverb and Chours most of the time.

I run a Roland SDE1000 for most delay patterns. It's also programmable, so
I'm able to programme in four different delay patterns.  I can also
do some pretty thick chorusing with this as well, so between the two,
I'm able to mix and match the different effects.

I use a 10 band soundcraftsment graphic eq.  One half of the Eq is
set up for guitar, which ofcuorse changes based on what I'm doing at the
time, the other set up for a midi guitar which is left alone.  Depending
on what I'm using, I toggle between the two sides of the Eq,  The Midi
controller (A roland D110) has within it, various digital presets for reverb
and delay so unless I want to thicken up something on the midi, I run it
strait into the eq, and then to the clean side of my amp  (this is suitable for
low level playing only.  for full level playing, a full range set
up is used for the Midi.  (The one draw back is I have to reroute the cabling
if I want to use the Midi guitar with both amps...)

anyway this works for me quite well.  The programmabilty of the effect units
allows me to set two ranges of preset-preprogrammed effects.  One range for
clean,  and one range for crunch.  (I've found that the effects used for
clean just *don't* work when you wana put the hammer down.

I don't know what the future holds, but I think the longer you wait, the
longer you make do with less.  I've also found that the more I ask
the DSP128+ to do at once, the more masked the sound becomes.  So
as a rule, less is usually better.

Good luck, it's a jungle out there.

    To answer reply no2, I used to play some dire straits, beatles, police,
    what we call evergreens, old rock'n roll's and a lot of my own stuff. 
    In fact it varies quite a bit from Bob Marley's "No woman no cry" to 
    Queens "Fat bottomed girls".  I'm not really a heavey metal or funk fan
    and as I'm not a very good guitar player I don't like very complicated
    lead guitar based stuff.
    I'm very happy with my Amp (a carvin X-100B thru 4*12 celestions) both
    on clean and overdriven sounds, but a compressor would sometimes be
    usefull so I first thought of buying a pedal only, but as sometimes
    some special preset overdriven sounds would be nice to have, I came to
    the idea of having a first rack. The idea of having everything in one
    rack is not very suitable because if you use the compressor in the
    effect loop after the amps overdrive the result isn't as good and
    having a chorus or a delay before the amp's overdrive isn't to my taste
    either. So thats the reason for having 2 different racks at different
    locations.
    Why messing around with an amp, I don't know but I think I still prefer
    the natural sound of my amp to the more artificial sound of
    preamps/multieffect racks butI haven't tried out the latest things yet.
    In fact I was looking forward to change my head and 4*12 for the carvin
    combo as well, this way I would have a small (although) quite heavey 
    easily transportable config and a lots of different possibilities with
    my 2 different racks.
    

    My personal opinion on this is that if you want to optimize your
    effects configutaration, you should probably put distortion,
    compression and level effecting effects in front of your amps preamp,
    and then put time based effects (delay, chorus, flange, reverb) in the
    amps efx loop.  Naturally this is just a guideline, as you can get some
    nice more subtle effects by changing this around.
    
    Whether this means having seperate multieffects units for before the
    preamp and after is really up to you and your needs.  Maybe all it
    means is that you stick a compressor or EQ stomp box between your
    guitar and your amp and have a delay and/or reverb stomp box in your 
    amps efx loop.  I think that would be a perfectly nice configuration
    and it be a little more flexable (in that the effects are placed where
    you want them for maximum effictiveness, not from the number of effects
    available), and would save you money over buying one or two effects
    units that try and do it all (SGE, GP-8, GSP-5, etc...).
    
    As others have been saying, simple can be very effective and it's sure
    a lot less hassle.  However, on the other hand, I have a friend that
    uses an incredible amount of effects (he has probably a dozen stomp
    boxes in front of him and at least four rack mount effects in various
    configurations around a Boogie Mark III) and he always gets outstanding
    sounds and tones.  The music he plays has a lot of different textures
    in it and this is what he feels he wants to get all the sounds he
    wants.  Who am I to criticize?
    
    Greg

    
    Just for the record, Greg is not referring to me.  Like he'd call
    me a friend, anyways...  8*)
    
    I too use a lot of FX, but nowadays all that if coming out of just
    one lonely dsp128+.  I rely on my Boogie for distortion and EQ.
    I find this set up to be plenty for the stuff we're doing; Stainless
    Steel Metal.  8*)
    
    I went on a search for what yer looking for, also, about a year ago.
    To my dismay, the best I could do at that time was compressor and 
    noisegate pedals, and dsp128+.  I didn't find any distortion units
    that I really liked or thought that was worth the bucks that they 
    were all asking for.  Besides, that's why I bought a Boogie in the 
    first place.
    
    J.
    
    

    Ibanez has just come out with a multi-effect box to compete with the Boss
    BE-5 line.  There's one for guitar and one for bass.
    
    While it's not programmable/digital, they did one thing right...an
    effects loop between the distortion and the digital delay.  The guitar
    unit is set up:
    
    compressor --> distortion --> effects loop --> delay --> chorus/flange
    
    So you patch this way:
    
    guitar --> FX in --> loop out --> amp in --> amp FX out --> loop in
     
    --> FX out --> amp FX in
    
    This puts compression/distortion ahead of your amp's input and the
    delay/chorus/flange in the amp's effect loop.  
    
    Looks pretty sensible to me, maybe it even sounds good  8^)  8^)
    
    						Brian

    
    Just what I was going to ask about...
    
    What about the BOSS BE-5 then? I'm also looking for a multiple effects unit
    but I don't want to break the bank. The BOSS BE-5 looks to me to be a
    good overall solution. Four effects for the price of about 2, Single
    power supply, pedals etc. Plus, most people I've spoken to seem to
    regard it fairly highly.
    
    So, what about this unit. Will the Ibanez be cheaper? Will it bring the
    BOSS prices down (about 200 pounds here in the UK)? 
    
    Richard
    Basingstoke, UK

.... the distortion is AWFUL, to say the least....

	Richard

    
    The Ibanez is priced a few $$ less in the US than the Boss...most
    likely quite deliberately.
    
    In addition to the FX loop, it also has memory, you can preconfigure up
    to 5 chains of effects and recall them with a single switch.  
    
    Obviously they looked at the BE-5 and decided to offer more features for
    less $$.
    
    						Brian

    Hey, that Ibanez thingie looks to be interesting I'll try that one out
    if I can find one.
    Just another question, what is the price of an ART SGE MACH 2 in the
    U.S. (the cheapest prices over here seem to be around 1500$)
    and do you know whether there is a selectable voltage switch as in europe
    we use 220V.
    Taco 

    SGE Mach II is around $575-$600 US these days.  To my knowledge, the US
    models do not have switchable input voltage.
    
    Greg

I would heartily recommend the GP16 above all others if you have the bucks.
This is the only unit you will ever need. I don't have the time to list all
the features ( and they're probably somewhere else ), but this is the first unit
that lets me do SUBTLE things. As DBII said before, when you play with a band,
anything you add effect wise puts you more in the background. The effects I
use are very subtle and the GP16 has the parameter resolution that allows me
to tune it very accurately. My favorite effect is just a hint of reverb on
rhythm and just a hint of delay ( and lots of volume/EQ ) on lead. One by one
the distortion patches are disappearing. ( I don't downstroke chug 1-5's )

							John.

    Not sure if this is the right note, but...
    
    I'm playing two instruments in the band I've recently joined: guitar
    and pedal steel.  I'd like to avoid physically swapping the input
    connector from one to the other when I need to change.  What do you
    guys know about options for handling multiple inputs? I'm looking for
    info on everything from a mechanical switch (I'm a little concerned
    about a 'pop' when using this kind of switch) to a mixer.
    
    My amp has one input jack. I'm MIDI-illiterate.  Fidelity is a key
    parameter.
    
    Thanks,
    John

Probably not the right note...But I'll tell ya anyway.
Seems like a plain old A/B box would do ya just nicely...

jc

    YEP, A/B box John! It doesn't need to be "midi" to work ya know.
    
    Rock on,
    	    Fred

Perhaps a MIDI A/B ??

Kitty HAwk has a neeto one...  I think DBII Still has it; do ya use it dbii??

    A small mixer like the Boss KM04 is also a good way to switch
    guitars on the fly. The nice thing about using a mixer is that
    you can adjust for differant gain levels on the mixer and not
    have to go back to the amp. Make sure you get an instrument
    level mixer as appossed to a line-level (ie: pa) mixer. These
    are available from Boss, DOD, etc. Prices range from about $75 
    and up.
    
    Mark

    Used A/B at MacDuff's for $20...no 'pop!' when switching.   I'm a happy
    camper.
    
    Thanks, dudes...
    
    Johnny

yeah I've still got it, it controls two kitty preamps (quattro & testerossa) 
and a/b's them to my intellifex...midi control central for superior tone...

dbii

    John , I was thinking of using the A/B box on my Mesa Boogie Preamp and
    ADA preamp with a Y cable out of each one. And into one side of my 
    Mosvalve, Is that how your doing it.
    
    Pierre who would like to know!!

    Yo Pierre-style-dude,
    
    I'm using it like this:
                          +---------+
    	pedal steel ----->|         |
                          | a/b box |----------->amp
        guitar ---------->|         |
                          +---------+
    
    I didn't quite follow your use of "...a Y cable out of each one."  Do
    you mean:
                             +-----[mesa preamp]-----+      +------+
                             |                       +----->| a/b  |   
        guitar(I presume)----+                              | box  +--->mos-
                             |                       +----->|      |   valve
                             +-----[ada preamp ]-----+      +------+
    
    If so, then I think that would work fine.  You could select which
    preamp was feeding the mosvalve.
    
    Regards,
    Johnny Jupiter
    

      No, I was thinking more on the line of this.
                         +---------+
                         |         |--->Mesa pre \  < this is the  Y cable.
         guitar--------->| a/b box |              >  mosvalve amp
                         |         |--->ADA pre  /
                         +---------+ 
    I'm hopeing for no Pops 
     
    Pierre

That'll work - I've been using a Morley A/B/Both box with a Marshall 50wt head
and my ADA based rack_of_doom.  Works cool.

jc

re: Coop

> I've been using a Morley A/B/Both box with a Marshall 50wt head and my ADA 
> based rack_of_doom.  Works cool.

Coop, how does that work? If you suddenly send the signal to both of them, 
does your onstage voume double? Or is the signal split in half, so you get
50% volume from each system it goes to?

alan

Well it looks like this:


                   -------ADA---FXetc---PowerAmp----Speaker
Guit ---- A/B/Both<
                   -------Marshall----speakers

The signal goes to either or both rigs (they are two seperate entities), so
the volume doesn't change.  The Marshall does kick up the "ballz" a little
for leads.  So, to answer your question the signal is split, but the volume
never changes.  I can play either and/or both rigs by stomping... I usually
use the rack for most metal stuff, and kick the Marshall in for that blues 
tone or run both for a real thick lead tone.  I like the Marshalls semi-clean
tones for Stormy Monday.  (Yup, I know - a metal band does Stormy Monday...
Iyyyy-Yi-Yi ;)

jc

> The signal goes to either or both rigs (they are two seperate entities), so
> the volume doesn't change.  

I still don't get it. If it goes to either rig, then I understand why the 
volume doesn't change. But when it goes to both of them, doesn't that double
your onstage volume, since they're both blasting away???

alan

No, it might increase the sound pressure, cuz of the added speaker coverage,
and better spectrum coverage, but I never noticed it louder...

Now, I COULD crank one up a lot, and kick it in for a volume boost, but
if both amps are set at the same volume...

jc (get it?)

PS - Dammit Alan, just fly out here and I'll SHOW YOU !!

:)

> No, it might increase the sound pressure, cuz of the added speaker coverage,
> and better spectrum coverage, but I never noticed it louder...

Well, with your hearing, I'm not surprised!  8^)

I *still* don't understand what's happening here!

Ok, let's assume there are two guitarist, each with their own rig. If one
plays, and then the other plays - each at the same volume - then that's the
equivalent of your setup using the A/B switch, right? 

But if they both start playing at the same time, through thier independent 
rigs, this is the same as your 'Both' switch, right? Isn't that twice as loud 
as either of them separately were?

Seems to me that you'd have two amps playing instead of just one, and that
your volume would double. I don't see why that's not true.....

> PS - Dammit Alan, just fly out here and I'll SHOW YOU !!

You gonna pay?  (Ooops - we tried that already, huh?  8^)

alan

My hearing has built in compression ??

No, no...

Dude, if the same two guit players are set at the same volume, if they 
play seperately, they are just as loud as if they play together...Right ??
It's just that the sound is spread out...

Hey!  Somebody help me out eh ??

Alan, DOOD, you been playing too many American guitars !!  Japanese guits
all play the seem volume !  LOUD !!!

:)

    Think about it Alan, if you have two guitarists playing in a band, it's
    *not* twice as loud as just one (unless one of the players is Coop). 
    The sounds blend and the net result is a little louder then either
    individually, but not overwhelmingly different.
    
>Alan, DOOD, you been playing too many American guitars !!  Japanese guits
>all play the seem volume !  LOUD !!!

    No, it's that COOP always plays the same volume, LOUD!  It's common
    knowledge that at extremely high SPL's your ear can't respond to more
    input so you don't perceive a difference in volume even if there is
    more.  Coop's rig is like that...
    ;^)

    gh

    Volume is (measured in db's, but you know that) on a logrithmic scale.
    You'd really have to crank to make it twice as loud.

    Obviously you've never heard Coop play...

    
    I though it was +3db louder with 2 amps....
    
    ...twice as loud.....
    
    
    guy

    > Volume is measured in db's
    
    Thus establishing that if I was one of the guitarists, and Dave Bottom
    was the other, it would indeed between twice as loud (1 db + 1 db = 2
    db's).
    
    Being a bit more serious - Alan, "twice as loud" is really not a useful
    term.
    
    If you want to know EXACTLY what the change in volume is, go home
    tonite, put on your favorite Bruce Springsteen CD, find the "balance"
    knob on your stereo and compare the difference between just one speaker
    and both.
    
    I think you'll see that it isn't really all that much louder with two.

> Thus establishing that if I was one of the guitarists, and Dave Bottom was 
> the other, it would indeed between twice as loud (1 db + 1 db = 2 db's).
    
wagagagagaga! 

I guess I understand what you're saying - the sound isn't really going to
"double". I guess I never expected it to actually be twice as loud, but
I still would think there's an appreciable difference. I know that if half
the PA cuts out (or one of my speakers at home), there does seem to be 
a significant volume difference. 

Hmmmmm..... maybe this would he a handy thing to ensure that leads will cut
right through the mix, eh???

alan

    ...wagggaa!....especially with my sp-1000 pushing over 100W per side...
    
    dbii my ears are singing all the time...

    well yeah, twice as loud; if you both play in syncand your
    equipment is identical and placed the exact same distance 
     from your ears so you have no phase cancellation........
    not as easy as you thought!

    
    re: .40 (KRON)
    
    Yeah....ya gotta have matched pairs...
    
    Do they sell matched pairs of guitar amps? ;-)
    
    g

    Okay, here's the deal as I recall.  All other things being
    equal, it takes twice the electrical power (50w vs 100w) to
    produce a 3db difference in volume.  3db is not twice as loud
    however; in fact, it's around the minimum you need to be able
    to even perceive a difference in volume.
    
    With two amps of equal power, the added speaker area probably
    has more to do with increased volume than the power of the
    amps themselves.  Thus I'd expect two guitarists to sound louder
    than one guitarist at twice the power.  But neither would be
    anywhere near twice as loud.
    
    /rick

    Are you sure it's not (power x 2) = +10dB ?

    I'm trying to recall my audio days of yesteryear. I myself may have
    mistated this in a note long ago (if I thought I could find it, I
    would've looked it up and corrected it). I think 3dB is a significant
    number because it is generally accepted as the smallest change in sound
    pressure that the human ear can detect. Anybody know?

    --rjb

    
    I talked with an engineer that I work with here who used to 
    design audio amps and he seemed to agree with my idea of +3db
    being twice the intensity, but I may not have communicated 
    it very clearly.....
    
    What's 3db among friends? ;-)
    
    g

    db's are a measure of sound intensity ratio; the absolute db
    numbers (like threshold of pain = 130 db) are the ratioed to
    a reference level of 10 to -16 watts/cm squared (= 0db).
    
    You can also use db's to express the ratio between two intensity
    levels.  The formula is
    
    	db = 10 x log(ratio of intensity in watts/cm squared)
    
    Amplifier speaker systems are pretty inefficient, but consider
    the absolute best you could do if they perfectly transmitted
    power into sound waves.  For twice the power
    
    	10 x log(2) = 3db
    
    And as you state, this is generally accepted to be the smallest
    change detectable by the human ear.
    

Come on Greg, I don't play THAT loud...  Just keeping the balance...We
are a guitar band ya know.  :)  :)  In fact, I've turned down considerably
since my days as RnR co-guit.

FWIW - This is the first band I've ever been in where there are NEVER 
any volume wars...

jc