Conference napalm::guitar

    You need to read a book called "Hammer Of The Gods"
    ...It's about Jimmy Page but talks in great detail of all three
    dudes, the bands, babes etc...  Excellent book.
    
    jc

    I last saw page playing with plant on the nordorf robin concert.  Not 
    up to the old standard but better than the time before that I saw him.
    I also heard a rumour that he was suffering from alchoholism and cancer
    but I have no idea if it  is true .
    P.K

    I saw Jeff Beck on tour about 2 months ago....the guy was awesome.For
    me,definately better than Page and light years ahead of Clapton.
    
    
    
    
                                              STAYNZ

I agree with the above, but another band has also influed very much in
'producing' great guitarists - JOHN MAYALL's BLUES BREAKERS. Clapton
was a member here also - I think he did one album with JM - 'John Ma-
yall's Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton', I think. Two more famous gui-
tarists came from this band: Peter Green and Mick Taylor.

Peter Green WAS a VERY great guitarist. His blues feeling was awesome,
hear it on 'A Hard Road' with JMB. Later he started Fleetwood Mac to-
gether with Mick Fleetwood and John McVie, also earlier JMB members.
Today, he's totally changed. He went through some mental difficulties
and now looks like an old man. He's wearing nails several inches long,
making it impossible to play a guitar...when asked about if he could
just do a guest recording with FM, he answered 'uh, no, I've never 
touched a guitar for many years, I also would have to cut my nails, uh,
no...'. Sad, sad.

Mick Taylor is still playing. He joined JMB on the albums 'Bare Wires'
and 'Blues From Laurel Canyon'. Later on he played with Rolling Stones,
but got tired of all the media hype. Mick Taylor's vibrating and slide
playing technique is *excellent*. Liston to 'Get Yaya's Out' with RS.
Recently I saw him play with his own band, and he's still got the blues...

All of these five guitarists came, IMHO, from the same school. Today,
the playing is more technically based, but they haven't got the blues
feeling as they had when the whole thing started - not even Gary Moore,
who is so popular these days...(did I start a discussion here...)...

Poul

re .0

>    And one other thing, what has happened to Jimmy Page?  Why do Clapton
>    and Beck just seem to be getting better and better, and Page is
>    hardly ever heard from anymore? 

	Clapton has got over his addictions to drink/drugs and I don't think
Beck ever had a problem. Unfortunately Jimmy Page hasn't and has subsequently
squandered his talent.

Nigel

    re: a couple back.  John Mayal and the Bluesbreakers!!  Why, I still
    have on of his albums.  I used to play it all the time.
    Didn't Clapton play with Delaney&Bonnie and Friends?
    
    Chris D.

    I don't know if Clapton played with Delaney&Bonnie (Don't think so)
    but Duanne Allman did, and he played with Clapton. I believe that's
    the only connectoin between Clapton and D&B.
    
    On the Duanne Allman Anthology album there is a cut by D&B and Friends
    entitled "Living, out on the open road" with Duanne Allman playing
    slide guitar...Pretty Hot stuff for the early 70's timeframe.
    
    	Mark
    

    
    	I remember back when the first Zep album, Goodbye Cream, and
    	Electric Ladyland came out.  I used to sit there and listen
    	to the 3 of them and couldn't decide who was better.  Funny
    	how Beck wasn't up there yet - guess Beckola and Truth just
    	didn't have that BIG sound.  Then he comes out with Blow by
    	Blow!!  
    
    	To me, Clapton and Page just kept getting "worse".  While I
    	haven't heard all of Eric's later stuff, his playing (to me)
    	was best on the live side of Goodbye Cream.  I too saw Beck
    	with SRV in Worcester.  No disrespect for SRV intended but
    	Jeff was just incredible.  No scales, no riffs, etc...
    
    	Just music!!!!
    
    	Tom
    

>    I don't know if Clapton played with Delaney&Bonnie (Don't think so)

EC definitely played with Bonnie and Delaney. He toured with them, and his
playing is documented on the live album they released....

alan

    re .7
    
    Nope, Clapton DID play with Delaney and Bonnie after Blind Faith, and
    just before Derick and the Dominos. He credited D&B with giving him the
    self confidence to sing. After Cream and Blind Faith, he wanted an
    entirely new direction. 
    
    One thing about being an old "mofo" is that I remember all this. In
    those days I was a RnR trivia collector.
    
    "sakman" 

    Page has slipped down the ladder
    Clapton is content to stay at the same level
    Beck is the man to beat- I saw him and SRV at the Centrum and Jeff
    was incredible, just a master of the guitar.No elaborate racks of
    outboard gear,just a man torturing a Strat for all it was worth.

	For more insight into the rivalry between B, C, and P there is a 
	book which I believe is called simply "The Yardbirds" and was written
	partly by one of the other band members.  I can't remember if it was
	Chris Dreja or the drummer (what was his name???  some the McCarty?).  
	It is pretty much an inside history of  the Yardbirds from the bands
	conception right through the Beck/Page dual guitars and the bands
	end.  It's a good book to read prior to Hammer of the Gods...kinda
	like part 1.  

	BTW....The Zep members all say Hammer is all a bunch of bulls**t.

	_gary

I have to offer my two cents...

In my most humble opinion, Beck is the true master out of the three.

To my mind, the man is just awesome, in every aspect.  From his own
productions: Blow by Blow, to Guitar Shop, his work has never slipped
an inch to my ears.  He's always getting something else out of his
fingers, and guitar and he doens't follow the pack, he rolls his
own style....  He is just HUGE to me..

Clapton is a magnificent guitar player, and great composer, but I don't think
he's got the pure ability Jeff Becks got.  Gotta also give
Eric Clapton alot of credit, he has over come tremendous odds, and came
out of it in flying colors.  His last three or four years has been
his best since the "Domino's days"  But in the "Blues Hall Of Fame"
Stevie Ray will always get my top honors.. (r.i.p...)

Jimmy Page, well to me, that's another story.  His best works were
unfortunately from Zepplins first two albums, specifically the first,
but we cannot forget some of the stuff from Four Sticks, primarily the
solo in Stairway to Heaven allthough it's an overplayed tune, has
one hell of a solo..

Sorry to say, but now, I just think he's too burnt to do much these days.  
Too bad, cuz when Zepplin started out, Jimmy Page was the guy to watch
and learn from.

    COMPARING THE THREE:Clapton
    Arguably the best white blues guitarist ever.  If it wasn't for him
    mentioning people like muddy waters and freddie and B.B as influences
    I wonder what the "white" blues scene would be like.  As for him being
    commercial I would say he has always been commercial but as time goes 
    on veiws change.
    Beck: A great experimentor. Where clapton found his niche and stayed
    jeff has never been able to sit still. Its a shame he hasn't had
    the commercial success.
    Page: In his day was lead guitarist for the most popular rock band
    of the time.  Sad fact that excsesses of drugs and alcohol have taken
    their effect.  But still not such a bad thing to be remembered as the
    guitarist for S.T.H and Black Dog etc.

    I'll have to go along with .13 and .14.
    also regarding Page and his problems;
     I've always felt he suffered from a
     chronically swollen head!
    
     -Bill

 <<I've always felt he suffered from a
 <<chronically swollen head!
   

And here I always thought he suffered from 'Cranial Rectumitis'

[ Too much head up arse!  ;^)    ]

    I find these discussions that compare and contrast players
    interesting, and also, very frustrating.
    
    The steam engine, for its time, was an amazing invention.  It
    opened up the entire United States in the fact that it allowed
    peole to travel greater distances than they ever had before,
    and it allowed the mass moving of freight over great distances.
    
    This, in turn, allowed the west to be settled at a faster rate than
    it would have been otherwise.  Steam engines weren't replaced in
    America until after World War II.  For nearly 80 years, steam
    was king.
    
    Steam engine technology is fairly laughable now, in a 90s context.
    What, with jet engines, diesel engines, and nuclear power, steam
    technology is not very useful or necessary.  This does not, however,
    void its real contribution in its time.
    
    Jimmy Page may be sloppy, on drugs, a waste, an egomaniac, etc.  But
    some of the music he produced AT THE TIME HE PRODUCED IT was 
    truly exceptional.  He was a great producer and songwriter, too.
    
    Listen to the chording in "The Rain Song."  The reverse echo on "Whole
    Lotta Love."  The signature riff in "Black Dog."  The solo break in
    "Ramble On."  The acoustic guitar work on "Ten Years Gone."  The
    massive overdubbing on "Kashmir."
    
    Listen to the great songs he wrote, and yes, in many cases, stole and
    reinterpreted.
    
    Who is better?  I hate these questions.  What difference does it make?
    I feel fortunate to have choices!  I'm glad they all existed.
    
    Page has been beaten up many times in the NOTES files.  It's too bad.
    I think his contribution, in context, has been phenomenal.  I mean,
    he wrote the most requested song in the history of music.  How do
    you argue with something like that?
    
    Personally, I'd be very happy to have his ability, even if for only
    one night.
    
    JMHO,
    
    Brian

    re: -1   HERE HERE!!!
    
    Chris D.

    
    I think that Beck is undoubtedly the most talented, and I've been
    amazed at what I've heard him do (though I wasn't half as impressed as many
    were at the SRV/Beck concert last year....what I remember most is that
    my teeth hurt because it was too loud).  Besides the great talent and
    musicianship, his music doesn't really touch me all that much.
    
    Clapton is great, but if I had never heard anything that he did before
    1980, I wouldn't give him a second thought.
    
    Page makes my adrenaline flow like no one has ever been able to do!!!
    (with a guitar, that is :^)  To me, what matters is how much a person
    can reach my soul with their playing.  A soulful Page solo (like the
    lead on "I'm gonna Crawl") hits me right in the heart.  Yeah, I've
    heard and read really lousy things about him that didn't impress me,
    and I saw him with the Firm and it was the greatest musical
    disappointment I've ever experienced, but the music on those Led
    Zeppelin albums will keep me a fan of his forever.  While Clapton was
    making glossy commercial albums and Michelob commercials, Page put out an
    album that was true to himself in 1988.  "Outrider" was certainly no
    commercial album, and in comparison to Robert Plant's albums, showed me
    who was the biggest influence to Led Zeppelin.  Though it wasn't
    superb, it was a true effort, and through the sloppy playing I could
    still feel his soul in his playing.
    
    Clapton is alive and well in the public eye.  Beck has always been the
    guitar player's guitarist (excepting this guitar player).  Page's fall
    began before Zeppelin disbanded, and I think he more or less accepted
    his image as a washed-up guitar player after Zeppelin ended.  It
    shouldn't discount what he's accomplished......unless you don't believe
    that music is timeless, and only the here and now matter.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that his style appeals to me more than
    either Clapton's or Beck's......("no kidding, Dave!!")
    
    Dave

    Sounds a bit like we all are a little bit protective of our major
    influences.  The one thing I think you have to keep in mind is that
    since time began music is there to be listened to and enjoyed.  
    And as a musician there is nothing I would like to be remembered
    for more than having left a mark on my peers.
      All three of these people have done just that.  It doesn"t really
    matter if Pages was over a short period of time.
    
    just a few thoughts 
    P.K.
    

    This is bringing back memories for me.  Back in 69 or 70, I received
    a Motorola cassette player for my birthday.  The first three tapes
    I bought (after I got sick of taping "Ringo" by Lorne Green off the
    radio) were: Jimi Hendrix "Smash Hits", Cream (with the vegetables
    on the front), and Led Zeppelin II.  It wasn't too long before I had
    also picked up Beck's "Truth" (or was it "Beck-ola"?).  My thoughts
    on these guys:
    
    	Jimi reinvented the guitar with total abandon;
    
    	Eric defined the genre of the "long jam-with-lots-of-solos" music,
    	but went on to do so much more in the way of rock, pop, and blues.
    
    	Jeff was, as someone mentioned, "the guitarist's guitarist".  Here
    	was a guy who stretched the instrument in terms of sound, and never
    	made a f*^&%$# mistake -- went on to really "definitive" stuff on
    	Blow by Blow and Wired.
    
    	Jimmy was the undisputed king of killer guitar tone.  My personal
    	faves are the first two albums.  Just try touching the tone and
    	energy of the guitar on the "Heartbreaker" intro or the solo/break
    	in "Whole Lotta Love".  Guitarists have been searching for that
    	tone ever since.
    
    	Me, I like 'em all.  It is very interesting to see that B, C, and
    	P did all come out of the same mold.  For awhile Alvin Lee used
    	to fall into that category, but he was just "balls-out" boogie.
    	London must have been a wonderful place to have been back in 67 -
    	69!!
    
    	joe.

    Does anyone think Page will get it together again?  He sounded great
    with Plant at Knebworth.  Is he cleaning up his act now?   I think
    he still has alot to offer the music scene.
    

(Also posted in MUSIC)

The first CD is the original 'Layla' album - it clocks in at over 77 minutes, 
on one CD! The sound quality is vastly improved, as the original wasn't really 
that great to begin with. They remixed and remaster it, and brought out the
guitars in the mix a little more. Other than that, it pretty much sounds the
same, but somewhat cleaner. (There are extensive notes from the producer who
did the remix on exactly what he did.)

The second CD consists of the outtakes from the 'Layla' sessions. Although 
this is interesting, particularly the alternate versions of "Tell The Truth",
I probably won't listen to this one too much. 

The third CD is entitled 'Jams', and that's exactly what it is. There are five 
songs, entitled 'Jam 1' through 'Jam 5'. The first three are just Clapton 
playing guitar with the Dominoes backing him up. This runs about 45 minutes,
and is just great for guitar fans! It isn't for everyone, as there are no
vocals at all, just Eric wailing away for 45 minutes (I love it!). The last
two songs, about another 30 minutes, is the same thing, but with Duane Allman 
and Dickie Betts joining in on the jammin' (and Gregg is also in there on one
song, I believe, on keyboards). For someone who likes funky blues guitar 
playing, this CD is just about perfection! I can just sit there and listen to 
it over and over, and never get bored! (This CD is 76+ minutes long!)

Overall, its a very high quality package. The box itself looks very classy, 
and there are some great liner notes, as well as the studio notes (its the
original scratch pad used by the engineer to keep track on who plays what,
and on what track. Interesting to see which songs were played live, and which 
were overdubbed, and how things were miked, etc.)

alan

    
	I choose not to compare Clapton, Beck, and Page against each other
	for one reason being I like each of them in their own right and as
	Brian (.18) has already pointed out any proper discussion needs to 
	be in the correct context.  

	Didn't they all grow up within a 5 mile radius of one another?

	Didn't Beck and Page have very similar interests in music as
	kids?  Didn't Beck even give Page one of his first guitars?
	Didn't Clapton recommend Page who in turn recommended Beck 
	before he himself joined The Yardbirds?  Is it no wonder
	they all have something in common and all emerged as prominent
	players?  I think each of them has that unique sound that is so 
	easily identified with them that it in itself is amazing when you 
	consider how many people play guitar and for someone to stand out
	is truly a test of their talents.

	Some other common factors both Eric and Jimmy dropped out of art 
	school.  Both started playing at a relatively young age.
	
	On the other side of the coin the competition unlike today was not
	nearly as great in the early days.  Even Clapton once said he was 
	number one in a field of one!  Yes, I know if you go back to early 
	blues recordings you can hear that some of what they did wasn't 
	first created solely by them but each definitely took it to a another 
	level and made it their own style.

	Also, another side track is that I often hear the negative things
	about musicians who used other artist's material be it a cover
	or to totally rearrange it and I think it is both a tribute to
	the original artist and in some cases even gets people who probably 
	would never have gone back and listened to the earlier artist interested
	in that artist.

	I'm not just saying this because many bands such as the Rolling 
	Stones, certainly the Beatles, and others did songs that were
	covers which may not have been obvious to all listeners but I don't 
	think any of them were ever hiding that fact.  On many a LZ live 
	bootleg recording you can hear mention of the original 
	artist and the respect in which the band had for them.  It's true the 
	credits could have been noted but I'm heading down a rat hole as it is.

	I find musical connections from the early days really quite remarkable 
	how they all really seem to be so interrelated and formed out of
	a relatively small group of people.

	I'm a big fan of this type of music and also very much enjoy other 
	forms one being new independent music, i.e, college radio stuff, and 
	I am sometimes amazed by how some radio stations put down all music
	that was created prior to their format but I often hear the 
	musicians themselves admitting to having influences in the '60's and	
	this doesn't prevent their music from being new or mimicky but
	again taken to a new point much the same way as the people who
	they were influenced by.

	It's hard to believe that someone no matter what their age has not 
	heard any of Eric Clapton's works prior to 1980 noted a few back.

	Although Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck only shared the dual lead in
	the Yardbirds for a short time Page did show up in Beck's Bolero,
	again showing the ties.

	I didn't hear any discussion of the Clapton and Page work together
	which I have seen issued under countless album titles and collections.
	I have never ran across Blues Anytime but that is also supposed
	to include Page and Clapton playing together but by search halted
	when I found out this is nothing more than another reissue of
	sessions the two together in which Immediate said they had the
	rights to since Eric was still under contract with them.  If 
	memory serves they both wanted to add somethings to them but
	in my opinion the raw sound is just fine.  There was seven
	such songs and then three from the 1965 single "I'm your
	Witchdoctor"/? and "On top of the World"  I have not seen
	this track on any of the various compilations I have.

	Some of the tracks that come to mind being "Telephone Blues",
	"Tribute To Elmore", "Dragin my Tail", from memory so don't beat me
	up, and "Down in my Boots".  I think the book Eric Clapton has
	a good discography which gives the details on these.
	
	Also, their work with Ronnie lane and the Arms benefit which I think
	only appeared as a bootleg but the video was legitimate.

	As for roots I'm not as familiar with specific individuals on
	Beck but some of Page's were James Burton, Scotty Moore, Elmore James
	and Carl Perkins, and I always liked what I once hear Clapton
	say paraphrase "If you really want to here the blues go
	back and listen to the people who inspired me".

	As for the comment about all three leaving a mark that 
	is certainly true but Page's being a short one has to most furthest
	from the truth not just my opinion but backed up by fact of 
	countless session work, some 6 year in R&B, session work with Jazz
	people such as Hubby Hayes, Blues, John Murphy and Champion Jack Dupree,
	starting in his own band at around the age of 15 with
	Neil Christian & the Crusaders in '62, guest appearances on other 
	peoples records, The Yardbirds, Led Zeppelin, The Firm, solo Outrider.
	Even new bands of today in various styles of music admit to his 
	influence.

	I've had posted a lot of what follows in one form or 
	another in other notes conferences and I have also included
	a write up By Alan Starr that describes Jimmy Page's versatility
	better than I have ever seen it described in words before.

	One thing I like a lot that Pete Townshend said once is that the
	average person can fall ever so slightly below the norm
	of society and hit bottom so easily.  If it's true for most of us
	imagine someone faced with dealing with fame and the expectations
	that are always placed on you, no wonder any decline both
	musically or personally even if it's not at the high level
	it was once before is described in such a negative way.

	As for the comment following the question about what he was doing
	since John Bonham's death being "a lot of drugs" I'm certainly
	not making an excuse for him but I'm sure the loss of anyone's
	close friend can be devastating and obviously this time period
	wasn't his first with drugs so I don't think it was intended
	to sound so pro-drugs but rather show his personal decline
	since the loss of John.

	And like many popular bands the box set that is due out shortly
	will be enjoyed by many old fan and many youngsters just now
	listening to their music for the first time.

	This list is in no particular order...And it's obvious that my 
	collecting is predominately Page related but as I said I like all 
	three, and probably do lean in a Page, Clapton, Beck order.  Let's
	not start that again!


		Blow Up		-- An album from the film "Blow Up" with Beck 
				   and Page on "Train Kept a Rolling" with 
				   dual lead.
		Cartoone 	-- Page session.
		Dave Berry 	-- Page session with John Paul Jones and
				   Big Jim Sullivan on one record - This 
			           Strange Effect.
		Donovan 	-- Sessions on the albums Hurdy Gurdy Man and 
				   Sunshine Superman.  The Hurdy Gurdy Man 
				   album included both John Bonham and Jones.
				   Although Page did not play on the title 
				   track as believed that fine bit of playing 
				   goes to Alan Holdsworth (if my memory serves)
		Fifth Avenue	   Session work from Immediate label days.
		Golden Eggs 	-- The Yardbirds - some rarities (boot).
		Harper + Jugula	-- Roy Harper and Jimmy.  And various other
				   albums of Roy's.
		Immediate A's & B's     Session days. This label is believed
				-- to have had early J.P. living room tapes but
				   since they are no longer I don't know
				   the real/whole story.  I might be confusing
				   this with something else.
		James Patrick Page 
		Session Man	-- Pirate of singles (list included below)
				   Originally a two record set.  A remastered
				   set two volume set with CD availability is
				   out and appears to be an official release
				   licensed and all that.  Volume 1 CD
				   has additional songs than vinyl.
			           Volume 2 has an interesting track of
				   Train Kept... which first appeared on
				   a Texas rarity album called Acid Visions
				   where by Page dubbed the solo to Scott
				   Mckin (forget) who he met during
				   Yardbird days.
		Joe Cocker	-- "With A little Help from my Freinds"
		Les Fleurs De Lys -- Session
		No Introduction 
		Necessary   	-- Clapton and Page
		White Boy Blues --  ""
		British Archive --  ""
		Series
		Blues Anytime   -- ???
		P.J. Proby 	-- Early session Pre-LZ with possibly all 
				   members of Zep.
		Special Early 
		Works 		-- 
		Lord Sutch and  -- Noel Redding, Beck, Page, others
		Heavy Friends   -- reissue as Fire and ?  Some songs
				-- appeared on John Bonham Session Man.
		Stephen Stills 	-- Right by You  - a couple of songs
				   featuring Page.
		Willie and The 
		Poor Boys 	-- Various...
		Al Stewart 	-- Love Chronicals - Page again.
		Paul Anka 	-- ?
		Them and Them Again 
				-- Gloria and forget the other track.
		The Kinks	-- You heard that argument...Page only plays
				   rhythm and he says he only added
				   some sweetening to You Really...
				   I hear that Pye has the version that
				   possibly has Page on lead.
		Tom Jones 	-- It's not Unusual
		The Who		-- My Generation - rhythm on two tracks
				   Can't Explain which a Shel Talmy article
				   says was aimed at sounding like You Really 
				   Go Me and Bald Headed Women.
	David Bowie and the Mannish Boys     -- Pity the Fool / 'forget
	Nico  			-- I'm not Saying 45 / Last Mile

	
	Bands Jimmy was in / session work...

	Neil Christian and the Crusaders
	Carter Lewis and the Southerners
	Jet Harris and Tony Meehan
	Mickie Most (-and the Gear)
	Sessions on Herman's Hermits first two records also John Paul Jones
	The Redcaps
	Dave Berry
	Mickey Finn and the Bluemen
	Pat Wayne and the Beachcombers
	The First Gear
	Brenda Lee
	The Primatives
	Lulu and the Luvvers
	P. J. Proby 
	Wayne Gibson and the Dynamic Sound
	Brian Poole and the Tremoloes
	Billy Fury
	The Sneekers
	The Zephyrs
	The Landcastarians Check spelling...
	The Brooks
	Bobbie Graham
	The Outsiders
	The Fifth Avenue
	Gregory Phillps
	The Masterminds
	Judi Smith
	Les Fleurs De Lys
	Twice as Much	 possibly one track on British Rock Giants 
	Johnny Holiday 
----------- 
I forget who sent me this....

Jimmy Page (of Led Zeppelin fame) :

for any French institutional rockers, it was a must to go to record in London
in the 60's. Johnny did it and recorded there an EP named "Johnny in London"
(original isn't it !). As you all know, Jimmy Page was a very famous session
man in the 60's and he plays on this EP. (BTW Brian, Jimmy Page also plays
on some Michel Polnareff songs recorded in London !)

	Chris Farlow 		"Out of Time" ?
	Rolling Stones 		"I'd rather be with the boys" ?   Dirty Work
				metamorphous has Jones

	Everly Brothers		Two Yanks in London
	Pretty Things		Swan Song hence...
	Jackie DeShannon	wrote one with Page recorded by M. faithfull.
	Petula Clark
	Cliff Richard (?)
	Burt Bacharach
	Johnny Dankworth sp?
	Graham Gouldman
	Rock Generation Record - Sonny Boy Williamson and Page  Appears various
					releases.
	Bad Company - session or two
	Mason Ruffner  - first record...
	Marianne Faithfull
	

        <<< HELPME::DISK$HELPME_AUX:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Heavy Metal >-
================================================================================
Note 39.177                       Led Zeppelin                        177 of 225
USCTR2::ZAPPIA "29 going 20 for at least the next " 242 lines  15-DEC-1989 00:59
                   -< Pre-Zeppelin Sessions (Page for now) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	I too agree with Alan (.165) and will add that I'm surprised by how 
	infrequently I hear mention of the pre-Zeppelin work done by Jimmy 
	Page by both those who are fans and not.

	The comment earlier regarding having to be "into" LZ to appreciate
	the work by Page is non-sense especially when you consider his
	versatility, not only as shown with LZ but his prior wide-range
	workings with performers and acts.

	There's countless session work done by Page and not just the ones 
	you've probably already are ware of such as the Kinks, Joe
	Cocker, the Who, Donovan, etc. {I listed some of them somewhere
	either in this conference or ...}
	
	Some of you will probably recognize the following song list but
	here's further evidence of the diverse talents of Page.
	(Also, I'll add that I'd rather add this than to continue the
	agreement/disagreement about Page as in earlier replies.)


	"Diamonds" 
	  by Jet Harris & Tony Meehan

	"Somebody Told My Girl"
	  by Carter-Lewis & the Southerners

	"The Feminist Look"
	  by Mickey Most

	"Talking About You"
	  by the Redcaps

	"Roll Over Beethoven"
 	  by Pat Wayne & the beachcombers

	"Money Honey"
	  by Micky Most

	"That's Allright"
	  by Mickey Most

	"My Baby Left Me"
	  By Dave Berry


	"Leave My Kitten Alone"
	  by The First Gear

	"A Certain Girl"
	  by The First Gear

	"Don't You Dig This Kinda Beat"
	  by Chris Ravel & the Ravers

	"Once in a While"
	  by The Brooks

	"Night Comes Down"
	  by Mickey Finn

	"Little by Little"
	  by The Pickwicks

	"I Just Can't Go to Sleep"
	  by The Sneekers


	"She Just Satisfies"
	  by Jimmy Page

	"Keep Movin'"
   	  by Jimmy Page

	"Is it True"
	  by Brenda Lee

	"Leaves Come Tumbling Down"
	  Judi Smith (written by Page/DeShannon)

	"Get a Load of This"
	  by Neil Christian & the Crusaders

	"You Said"
	  by The Primitives

	"How do you Fall"
  	  by The Primitives

	"Surprise, Surprise"
	  by LuLu & The Luuvers


	"Hot House of Omagarashid"
	  by The Yardbirds (previously unreleased_

	"I'm Confused"
	  by The Yardbirds (listed as previously unreleased although I have 
	                    seen it around on a Yardbirds rarity/overpriced
			    album.)

	"Garden of my Mind"
	  by Mickey Finn

	"You're the One"
	  by Philamore Lincoln

	"Just Like Anyone Would Do"
	  by The Fifth Avenue, produced by Page

	"Zoom, Widge, and Wag"
	  by Bobbie Graham

	"Bald Headed Woman"
	  by The Sneekers


	For those who don't know, the list is from a 4 album package
	entitled 'James Patrick Page Session Man' from the Led Zeppelin
	Fan Club, Manchester, England.  

	The following is a copy of the words on the back of the album
	which in my opinion are one of the best early chronology
	recollections I have ran across.


		"Jimmy page is widely regarded as one of the best, of not the
	best, ever to play guitar in rock & roll.  His timing, his strong
	rhythmic base combined with an inventive imagination, and above all
	his versatility and wide range of stylistic influences, put him in a
	league of his own.  The reason for his pre-eminence, as revealed in a
	recent series of interviews in Trouser Press magazine, has a lot to do
	with his background as a session guitarist.  During the 1960's, Page
	played on literally hundreds of records, commercials, film scores, etc.,
	for which he was required to master every imaginable style of playing, 
	and that discipline provided the foundation for his later triumphs with
	the Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin.

		Page took up the guitar after hearing "Baby Let's Play House"
	by Elvis Presley (1955).  A dedicated fan and record collector, he
	studied the playing of Scotty Moore, Carl Perkins, James Burton, and
	other pioneers of early rock & roll.  Around 1961 or '62 he joined his
	first band, Neil Christian & the Crusaders.  Christian was a sort of 
	R & B-based pop singer whose records sound quite tame by today's 
	standards, but their repetoir of Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley songs
	was considered daring at that time.  he left Christian's band before
	their first record was made, and at age 17 took more than a year off
	for art school, during which time he jammed at blues clubs and
	occasionally joined Cyril Davies' bands on stage.  It was during
	this time that someone referred some session work his way, and
	though his first two sessions were straightforward, melodic pop
	tunes, both (Jet Harris & Tony Meehan's "Diamonds" and 
	Carter-Lewis' "Somebody Told My Girl") became hits, and
	consequently Page was in demand for more sessions, which he
	found an easy source of income while avoiding the rigors
	of touring with a regular band.

		From 1963 through 1965, Page sat in on more sessions than
	he could possibly remember.  Some artists he recalls backing include
	Donovan, the Dubliners, the Everly Brothers, the Pretty Things,
	Jackie DeShannon, Petula Clark, P.J. Proby, Cliff Richard,
	Johnny Hollyday, Burt Bacharach, and Billy Fury.  On most of
	these his role was strictly to play from a written chart,
	but there were occasional session when he was called in to
	assist some raw young R&B or Merceybeat band who wanted that
	extra edge that might them the elusive hit.

		It is on these records that one can hear Page's style
	gradually developing.  On this album we have attempted to
	gather together the best of his session performances, and in
	listening to it the progression can be clearly seen.  The hot
	solos with Mickey Most and Pat Wayne in '63, his passionate
	rock & roll phrasing with Dave Berry and the Sneekers, and that
	extraordinary handful of obscure 45's on which, with today's
	hindsight, we can hear Page mapping out unknown territory
	in his use of distortion, speed, feedback, and other forms
	of experimentation that were completely unknown (and unrecognized)
	at the time.


		Listening now to records like the Primitives' "How Do You
	Feel" and "You Said", or Mickey Finn's "Night Comes Down", one can
	only wonder that Page wasn't exalted for this work the way 
	guitarists like Townshend and Clapton were for much less
	adventurous playing. two and three years later.  To this day,
	few have matched the weird intensity he achieved on the
	First Gear's "Leave My Kitten Alone" or the eerie, echoey
	effect on the Brooks' "Once in a While".  The unfortunate
	fact is that most of these records made little impact at the
	time, and thus were never heard by those who might have
	acclaimed them.

		Of course, Page lent his hand to quite a few hits
	during his session period, most widely-known being the
	Kinks, the Who, and Them.  As he explains it: "I was mainly
	called in to sessions as insurance. It was usually myself
	and a drummer, Bobbie Graham, though they never mention
	him these days.  On the Then session, it was very embarrassing
	because you noticed that as each number passed, another
	member of the band would be substituted for by a session
	musician.  These were times I wished I'd never been booked.
	Talk about daggers!  I played on all the classics, "Here Come
	the Night", "Baby Please Don't Do".

		Shel Talmy, producer of the Kinks and the Who, was
	in the habit of keeping Page on hand in case he was needed.
	On "Can't Explain" and "Bald Headed Woman" he added some fuzzy
	guitar.  Normally when the band had a good enough guitarist,
	Page played second rhythm or added little bits to spice
	things up.  This led to much confusion later when interviewers
	would ask Ray Davies and Pete Townshend if Page had played
	all the lead guitars on their records, arousing their
	natural indignation.

		In 1965, when Andrew Loog Oldham started his Immediate
	label, Page was brought in to do A&R, production, and some
	playing.  He participated in some blues jams with Clapton
	and others, and produced records like the Fifth Avenue's 
	"Just Like Anyone Would Do", which he also wrote.  Although
	Page was becoming quite well known, a sole single ("She
	Just Satisfies") bombed and by 1966 he had decided to
	join the Yardbirds, bringing an end to his days as a session
	man, though he has from time to time sat in on sessions for
	friends, such as the Philamore Lincoln track included here
	(referenced above).

		There are still hundreds of Jimmy Page sessions
	yet to be identified, and we hope that the appearance of
	this album will spur collectors to bring a few more to
	light.  In the meantime, we hope you'll enjoy this album
	as much as we enjoyed putting it together!"


	I probably shouldn't get into this but what the... Okay, so the
	thing that most folks are probably in agreement about is how Page 
	hasn't aged gracefully but anyone who can compare the Firm tours and 
	the not to distant Outrider tour possibly saw a more Page-like 
	performance during Outrider as I did.

	Anyhow, that it's it for now!

	- Jim

extracted from a fellow noter,...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page exerted a lot of effort on the work in the studio.  He was fairly
imaginative creating sounds.

For example the violin bow on "Dazed and Confused" and "How Many More
Times".  The double miking of the solo on "Ramble On", where one mike was
pointed at the amp, one at the far studio wall.  I think that Whole lotta
love was pretty different than anything else around 1969.  How about the
schizophrenic "Lemon Song" where there is lead on one side and rhythm on
the other.

Listening to how much Led Zeppelin is played on the radio today, and
considering that some of their stuff is over 20 years old is amazing.




        <<< HELPME::DISK$HELPME_AUX:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Heavy Metal >-
================================================================================
Note 39.165                       Led Zeppelin                        165 of 225
HAZEL::STARR "We're beating plowshares into swords." 70 lines  25-NOV-1989 00:32
         -< 'Why Jimmy Page Is My Favorite Guitarist', by Alan Starr >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, with all thw fuss being made lately about Jimmy Page, I thought it was 
about time that I put in my $.02 worth. As most of you know, I am a big Zep 
fan, and have been a staunch supporter of Page in the past. That trend will 
continue with this note - I hope to explain why, IMO, that Page is one of (if 
not the best) guitarist in rock and roll.

First of all, the short version: Versatility.

Now, the longer version:

The thing that continually amazes me about Page is not his technical ability 
(although that is substantial, even if not up to today's speedsters). What 
does continually impress me, even upon the n-th listen, is his ability to feel 
at home at numerous styles of music. And I'm not talking about just two or 
three here - I'm talking about more styles than half of today's guitarist have 
even *heard* before!

Let's take a quick glance at some of Zep's catalog, and look around.

Hard rock - "Immigrant Song", "Whole Lotta Love", "Heratbreaker" - these songs
            pretty much defined the term 'heavy metal' when they came out. Oh
            sure, Zep wasn't alone - we've all heard the arguments about Blue
            Cheer and many others - but Zep was definitely the one to have the 
            largest effect on the most people.

Rock and Roll - "Rock and Roll", "Song Remains The Same", "Trampled Underfoot"
                - just a few of the straight ahead rock songs that still 
                influence most rockers thru today.

Blues - "How Many More Times", "I Can't Quit You Babe", "Since I've Been 
        Loving You" (which alone qualifies him for the Hall of Fame) - Page
        may have stolen some of the songs (I'll grant you that), but he also 
        made them his own - his style, flash, sound, and feel was all 
        personalized. 

Folk - "Going to California" was inspired by Joni Mitchell, and was written
       as a tribute to her style of music.

Celtic - "Battle for Evermore" is a classic example.

Boogie/Rockabilly - "Boogie With Stu", "Hot Dog" - you can tell that this is
                    one of Page's favorite styles to play - he seems to enjoy
                    them so much.

Ballads - "Stairway to Heaven" (of course), "All of My Love", "Rain Song" - 
          the man has written some of the most beautiful and memorable ballads 
          of the rock era.

Pop - "Dancing Days", "Fool In The Rain", "Houses of the Holy" - nice bopping 
      tunes that have great hooks in them.

Eastern - the majesty of "Kashmir" is the perfect example of this.

Experimental - "Whole Lotta Love"'s middle section using the theramin. The use
               of the violin bow in "Dazed and Confused". The interplay of 
               acoustic and electric on songs like "Ramble On" - not only did
               Page break the rules, but he wrote them for years to come.


Its for reasons like this that I consider Page to be one of the greats. Even 
if he isn't the fastest. Even if he isn't the cleanest. Even is he isn't as 
great as he once was. All those things pale when looking at the body of work 
he has given us.

And in 20 years, I'll look back at the career of someone like Vai or Gilbert 
or Satch. And if they have as much to offer as Page does today, then they will 
earn my equal respect. But until that day, Page still wins my heart over the 
others.

alan

!+++

	If you're still reading....maybe this out bu now....

	According to the September 8th issue of Melody Maker...

	"ZEP RETRO RELEASES
	Led Zeppelin have their first ever anthology released by Atlantic/east
	west at the end of October.  The eponymously titled four CD, four
	cassette, six LP boxed set spans the group's entire career and
	contains 54 tracks remastered and resequenced by Jimmy Page, Robert
	Plant, and John Paul Jones.  Also available, in Europe only, will be a
	condensed version entitled "Remasters" which will be released in
	triple LP, double CD and double cassette formats two weeks earlier.
	   Both packages contain songs from the band's nine LPs as well as
	two long-bootlegged tracks culled from a 1969 BBC session -
	"Traveling Riverside Blues" and "White Summer / Black Mountain Side".
	Also included is a new track bringing together elements of "Moby
	Dick" and "Bonzo's Montreux" from the "Coda" outakes album.  The
	anthology also contains "Hey Hey What Can I Do"", the B-side to
	the American single "Immigrant Song".
	   The packages have come about largely due to Jimmy Page's
	dissatisfaction with the sound quality of existing Zeppelin CDs
	    'I really wanted to have a crack at improving the overall sound
	spectrum', he said.  All the tracks have been remastered from better
	source material, in most cases from first generation two track masters.
	The original master tape to Led Zeppelin II has been missing for
	some years and Page managed to track it down for the project.  For
	most of the songs, first generation two-track were used.  

	....
	I would have included the remaining paragraph or so but I don't
	have the paper with me.

	- Jim

	that's all...
	=========================================================================

Given EC's tragic loss of his son and his very busy schedule for the last
4 or 5 years (his son's whole life span), it wouldn't surprise me if we
didn't hear much from him for a long time. It's a hideous event that I hope
I never experience, and how one copes with it isn't easy to predict. Maybe
he'll throw himself into new projects but I think it's at least even money
that he goes the other way and takes a lengthy vacation. I had heard
not long ago that he was planning a straight blues album. Just blues front
to back. I don't know whether or not he had begun work on it.

Anyway, my heart goes out to him and his family.

    I heard over the weekend that Mr. & Mrs. Clapton had to be hospitalized
    because of the severe shock.  It sure didn't surprise me, that is a
    heck of a burden to bear.
    
    Mike

    Have to get my 2 cents worth in here.  I must confess that I have never
    seen Jimmy Page live in concert, but I saw Jeff Beck for both the
    Blow By Blow and the Wired tours and the BBB was something that I'm
    sure glad that I didn't miss.  Such control and finesse!  I have seen
    Eric about 5 times spanning about 1974 to the tour with Mark Knopfler
    accompanying him.  The difference that I can see between Eric and other
    big stars is in the way that the audience responds to him.  The city of
    Montreal absolutely loves the guy and when they clap and cheer it is
    really something that I haven't felt at any other concert.  I can only
    hope that he comes back as strong a person as he was before his
    tragedy.

    YAHeeeeeeee
    
    	I have experienced a new universe of music!!  I can't believe Buddy
    Guy's new album with Clapton, Beck and Knoppler!!  The grooves are
    deep, the bass lines are incredible the guitar sounds are killer, I
    can't stop listening... I'm going to put my new Thunderbirds tape on
    one side of a 100 minute cassette and the new Buddy on the other side,
    shave my head, and spend the rest of my life learning this music
    (yeah, I know, I *did* kind of like the DiVinyls) CLapton is happenin'
    on this tape.. can you guys tell I like it?? 
    
    
    Gree Vee King
    
    	
    
    
    

    What, did you give up the bass already???
    
    						Brian
    

    
    
    	Naw, I was listening to the bass parts, but the 6 string playing
    sounded great too...  Man, no kidding Bri... the guy playing bass for
    Buddy knows his guano!!!  And nothing hyper-complex, just really tasty
    creative lines... played with feeling.. dang (I *DID* mention that Eric
    Clapton was on this tape didn't I?? Hmmmmm....)  [;^)
    
    Gree Vee
    
    Where's my dang package??

    re:  .29	Whatsaname of the new album?
    \Gary

    
    
    "Damn right I got the blues"
    
    	Jeeze the more I listen to this album, the more I freak..
    unbelievable blues power.. this must be what that old song is all
    about!  Not guano.. I've never heard anything like their cover of
    Mustang Sally.. their bass player (who is this guy?) is outstanding! 
    Makes me feel completely clueless..
    
    Gree Vee (29 days to go)

    
    	Geez, I stormed down to Turtles' records and they didn't have it!
    
    	waaaaah!

    STOP!  NO MORE!  ALL I BEEN HEARING IS HOW GREAT THIS THING IS!
    I GOTTA HAVE THIS ALBUM RIGHT NOW!

    Blair Unit, Burati Unit... you will not be disappointed, s'matter of
    fact while yer there you might as well pick up the Fabulous
    Thunderbirds "Walk that Walk, Talk that Talk" and listen to Duke and
    Kid Barlowe tear up some rhythm n' blues!

    Gree Veee King.. (hey doods, I gotta bass gig!)

      Hey Gree Veee - I just picked up the new T-birds. Nice stuff! 
    Some people will miss Jimmy, but that doesn't take away from the goods
    on "Walk that walk...". 
    
    						-B()()M / in R&B mode-

    
    
    	yah, Boom, R&B mode??  I gotta love it... how bout that sus2 stuff
    on "Twist of the Knife" sounds like some of Duke's "swing" stuff is
    leaking out onto his blues...  [;^)
    
    	Jeeze, when it rains it pours... now I'm home with a bad back and
    before I hurt my back (My doc says I've got a bulging disc.. and I said
    "Of COURSE!!!!" and she said no Steve, disc! I said d-ISK!) and just
    before that I knocked the tip of my thumb off, helping my kid put on
    new shocks.. doesn't bother my bass chops much but hurts like hell on 6
    string!!  Hmmmmm.. wonder if they'll lay me off sufferin' the way I am
    or if they'll take pity on poor ole Gree Vee King...  Yeah, right..
    
    	Well, me lads n' lassies got to get over to "General Discussion" so
    I can ramble some more..
    
    
    Gree Vee

     Jees greve....must be from lugging that @#*&% damned SVT!!!
    -the evil BILNIAC

    I heard Badge on the radio yesterday recorded live at the Albert Hall
    recently. Although I was losing the station and my car has a lousy radio
    too, I could hear it well enough to tell that Clapton was playing great
    that night. Also his tone was RTF ON! No squishy sounding effects. Not
    noodly (new-dl-ee) sounding. Just straight ahead. Made me feel good. I
    may have to buy this one. Anybody know anything about this release?

    You can tell a good blues solo cause you can feel it in your throat.

    
    
    Clapton's 2-CD "Live at the Albert Hall" set will be released tomorrow,
    Tuesday, Oct. 8.  It contains the version of "Badge" that you
    heard on the radio.
    
    Extra for Experts:  If you really need it, Towers Records (in Boston,
    anyway) is staying open until 1 tonight, allowing them to "officially"
    release the album at midnight.
    
    Brian

    
    
    
    	Will there be a version of "Born Under a Bad Sign" on the new
    album??
    
    Steve

    I can't believe these 3 don't have their own notes in here...
    
    Anyway, Jimmy does something in the LZ tune "Whole Lotta Love" that
    I've heard other people use recently.  In the chorus, after Plant says
    "Whole Lotta Love...", Jimmy does something with the guitar that sounds
    like he's running his hand down the neck.  Is this some sort of pick
    slide or what?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    >Anyway, Jimmy does something in the LZ tune "Whole Lotta Love" that
    >I've heard other people use recently.  In the chorus, after Plant says
    >"Whole Lotta Love...", Jimmy does something with the guitar that sounds
    >like he's running his hand down the neck.  Is this some sort of pick
    >slide or what?
    
    No, it's a slide slide...you know, like the glass thing that goes over
    your ring finger?

HE does some pretty wild things with a violin bow in that song too...

    Not to mention the theremin...

    
    I think I read that the sound following the choros of "Wanna whole
    lotta love?" is a slide with *reverse echo*.
    
    As part of the technically-stupid crowd of guitarists in America,
    I'm not sure if this required (back in '68/69) playing the part 
    and then physically turning the tape upside down to achieve the
    effect.
    
    Studio-meisters, what say you?
    
    Brian

    re: -.1
    
    That makes sense.  Aren't the vocals near the end ("way down inside")
    also reverse echo?

    Hmmmm, then he would have had to actually slide up when he recorded it,
    right? Maybe, but my guess is that he did it with a slide and a
    volume pedal.

    I would guess it was recorded backwards, due to the apparent lack of an
    attack (the sounds just appears).  And yeah, he would have had to
    'slid up' when recording.

    Yes, that sounds like reverse echo to me ("way down inside").
    
    For a much more interesting use of reverse reverb, check out Tom
    Benson's "Noel Noel" (is that on a COMMUSIC tape Tom?)
    
    I've heard it used a lot for cymbals but not for vocals, as Tom uses
    it.  
    
    Tom turned the tape around and recorded the reverb for the first
    syllable of each sentence on a free track.  When you reverse the
    tape, the "reverb" precedes the sound (does that make it "pre-verb"?)
    
    It sounds sorta like something that "builds up" (in volume) to
    the first word of the phrase.
    
    It is WAY COOL!!!  I definitely intend to rip-off that idea.

    
    You don't have to play backwards to use reverse echo.  The way Tom
    Benson did his pre-verb is the same way the Led Zep post-production
    crew did theirs.
    
    It is way cool, when used sparingly...
    

    > You don't have to play backwards to use reverse echo. 
    
    ?????
    
    You do have to play it (the tape) backwards to get the same effect that
    Tom did - which is have the reverb come in BEFORE the vocals.
    
    Unless you can get a reverb unit that predicts what I'm about to sing.

When you record you could send a signal into a delay and then send that output
(100% delay effect) into a track of your recorder.  You could also send that 
original signal into a reverb and then send that output (100% reverb effect) 
into another track of your recorder.  What you'll get is a straight reverb
signal followed by your dry signal.  

I'm not sure if this is what you want because your reverbed signal comes in on
beat and your delayed signal comes in after that.  What you would like is to
have your reverbed signal come in a little BEFORE the correct time and have
the delayed signal come in on time.  It's still an interesting thing to try.
Fool around with different delay times.  

/marc
 

    No, that isn't the effect I want because it's "straight" reverb instead
    of "reverse" reverb.
    
    Reverse reverb is much cooler.
    
    I could only think of one way to do what Tom did without having to 
    turn a tape around.
    
    I can conceive of a unit that samples what you play, plays (only)
    reverse reverb back until you hit a footswitch and then it plays the sample
    forward.
    
    That would be a very cool effect to have because it allows you to do
    a sorta "pre-sound" effect.
    
    Eric Johnson does something that kinda sounds like this effect to start
    a tune on "Ah Via Musicom" but I don't remember the name.  I think
    the lyric is something like "I close my eyes and see your
    reflection...".
    
    	db

>    Eric Johnson does something that kinda sounds like this effect to start
>    a tune on "Ah Via Musicom" but I don't remember the name.  I think
>    the lyric is something like "I close my eyes and see your
>    reflection...".

Talking about reverse echo's - Another interesting effect was produced by
BTO (I can't recall the Album name - It had a big metal gear on the front
cover) in the song 'Blue Collar' - In this the echo was timed such that
the delay came out in perfect time with the verse, and a guitar harmony
was played against the first (and echoed part) - I'll bet that they never
tried to do it live. 
							Jens

BTO = Bachman-Turner-Overdrive

    RE:- Album name was "Not Fagile".
    
    Dave'
    

	re: .57

	"Blue Collar" is on the first (untitled) BTO album.  Very jazzy
	ending also on that song.

	re: .56

	"Nothing Can Keep Me from You" (I think) is the name of the EJ tune.

    
    	USA Today writes that Clapton will be it's MTV Unplugged
    	performer in mid January.  Don't have the date, the paper's
    	in the squatter ;^)
    
    	Should be interesting.
    
    

    Give us a shout if you see it coming up, the show that is. It's
    entirely likely that I'd miss it since I don't leave MTV tuned in much
    anymore, what with the metal and rap crap in heavy rotation.

    Thanks for the info.

    --rjb

    Gentlemen ... set your VCR's !  8^)
    
    Scare'

I got the Beckology CD for christmas....it's got some hot tunes previously
unavailable or released as part of soundtracks, which for me  is the same
thing, I won't buy a soundtrack CD for one song..

It's worth the investment, especially if your old Yardbirds and jeff beck
group albums have lots of pops and scratches in them....

dbii

    A few weeks ago Clapton was on MTV Unplugged. Anybody see it? Any
    opinions? I thought it was awesome. He is truly a musician, not a bunch
    of big hair, hype, fx and all the other crap that so many guitarists hide
    behind. The guy can do it all write/compose, sing, and play.
    
    I recorded it and have viewed it several times. Last night I decided
    to tune my acoustic to pitch and play along with him where I could or
    improvise. I decided I'm gonna sit my butt down and learn the material.
    He did one tune however that I have no idea of where to begin. He did
    this song from the thirties called "Nobody Knows You (When You're Down
    and out). Its got all of them nice chords -  augmented diminished fifth
    flatted ninth minor and what all. Actually, given my usually short
    attention span I'd be lucky to learn Layla off the tape. I'll probably
    keep Nobody Knows You until last - if ever.
    
    Not only am I gonna try to play the tunes I learn, but I'm thinking its
    about time I learn how to sing and play too, which for me comes very
    difficult.
    
    "sakman"
    

    He played great, but he looked like a freakin' librarian!  I guess I
    haven't seen him in awhile - I wouldn't have recognized him.  Great
    stuff, though.  Those songs about his son really tore me up.
    
    Dave

>    He did one tune however that I have no idea of where to begin. He did
>    this song from the thirties called "Nobody Knows You (When You're Down
>    and out). Its got all of them nice chords -  augmented diminished fifth
>    flatted ninth minor and what all. 
    
    That's a cool tune!  I used to play that one, long ago.  I don't think
    it had but a couple of "tricky" chords in it though.  In 6/8 as I
    remember too.  I'll see if I can dig up my notes on it.
    
    Greg

    Oh,. now its coming back to me,..
    
    My singer wants us to do that tune (memory? what memory?)
    
    I have the music at home,... Shall I dig it up?
    
    FWIW,.. he (my singer) used to play it on guitar,.. so by definition
    it aint that hard
    
    						/Bill
    

    Here's the chords to "Nobody Knows You"; not too hard ...
    
    |C		|E		|A		|		|
    
    |Dm		|A7		|Dm		|		|
    
    |F		|F#dim		|C		|A7		|
    
    |D7		|		|G7		|		|

    Hmm,.. guess I don't have to post the ones I forgot to go home and
    look up %^}
    
    							/Bill
    

    Reposted in the appropriate topic...
    
    
SALEM::STIG                                          12 lines   6-DEC-1992 09:46
                       -< EC is the BEST IN THE WEST!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I feel EC is the best guitarist that ever lived.Don't just listen to
    his COMERCIAL stuff but listen to his work with Derik and the
    Domminoes. Then you will see how good of a player he really is. Make
    sure you listen to "Derik and the Dominoes" LIVE IN CONCERT!! Then I
    think everyone will stray away from bashing EC...He is the best!! You
    don't to be the fastest, or the flashiest, or the most tapper to be the
    best. That stuff doesn't make you the best guitarist. It's the phrasing
    and feeling behind it that makes it so special!! This guy started
    everything for us and now your bashing him. Brothers...without a
    beginning the most we would be playing are our broomsticks. And again
    listen to "Derik and the Dominoes" Live in Concert (you can buy it at
    you local record store.) and you will the best of Eric Clapton!!

    I heard a live cut the other day on a  local station...it was "Have You
    Ever Loved a Woman" by Derek and the Dominoes.  It was KILLER...sounded
    like Duane and EC takin' turns doin' some very POWERFUL blues work.  I
    was considering getting "Derek and the Dominoes, Live" CD, does anyone
    know if that cut is one the CD?
    
    Steve

    
    
    I don't believe Duane was on the *live* Derek and the Dominoes
    album.
    
    -Brian

    
    	What?  

Duane is definately not on hte D&D live album, I have it and will check but
methinks Clapton was the only guitar player on the album. Maybe Bobby
WHitlock did some rhythm/simple lead stuff..I know he did some of the keys.

Personally, this album was a real let-down (D&D live, didn;t come close to
the studio album FWIW).

dbii

    There was a brief period where Dave Mason played second guitar in the
    Dominoes.  From what I've heard that lasted only a half dozen gigs at
    best.  Mason most likely got involved though his connections with
    Delaney and Bonnie (he is also on the "On Tour" LP along with EC, as
    well as "All Things Must Pass", where the Dominoes served as rhythm
    section for George).  I've never heard of any of the gigs with Mason
    surfacing on recordings.
    
    						Richie Snare

	I'd recommend getting your hands on "The Layla Sessions", a 2 CD
	set of D&D work.  One disk contains all released tracks and the
	other consists of blues jams.  The accompanying booklet lists
	all the contributors.

	Sandy

> I'd recommend getting your hands on "The Layla Sessions", a 2 CD set of D&D 
> work.  One disk contains all released tracks and the other consists of blues 
> jams.  The accompanying booklet lists all the contributors.

Actually, this is a 3-CD set. One is the entire original album, one is a
collection of outtakes and alternate versions, and the third is just 70
minutes of extended blues/rock jams.

alan

    On the live version of "Have you ever loved a woman" EC plays duo with
    someone he c thanks as (I think) "George Sherring?" and it;s effing
    brilliant. Also checl out "Ramblin' on my mind", which uses simple 
    key changes tp build a terrific sense of excitemnt. At the end, the
    crowd is so gobsmacked they don't think to applaud until seconds after;
    they just sit in stunned disbeleif.
    
    sorry bout the typos; have the same problem on the guitar....

    I guess I missed the answer to my question.....Is "Have You Ever Loved
    a Woman" on the live Derek & Dominoes CD?
    
    Steve (really bummed as I read about Odie and Sak leaving)

    re .-1
    
    Have You ever Loved a Woman IS on the live D&the Dominoes CD.
    There's a really long version of Blues Power that kind of
    ends abruptly and it goes into Have YOu etc. It's a very intense
    version. 
    
    Re: the live version from EC Was Here .. that's George Terry, his
    second guitar player from the mid/late seventies.
    
    How many times did EC record that tune? I have 5 versions that
    I can think of off the top of my head:
    
    John Mayall, Primal Solos
    Layla
    Derek and the Dominoes Live
    EC Was Here
    Just One Night

    	When it comes to song writing, I feel its like mining, sometimes
    you hit rich viens and sometimes just junk rock. I think EC has hit
    some pretty rich viens in his time but most of the stuff is just
    tailings. As far as performance, he conveys feeling within his
    limitations, but GOD no way!!!! ZAPPA IS GOD.....(he found Vai, Belew,
    Ponty etc.)
    

    Anyone else see Clapton's "Rockumentary" on MTV a couple of nights ago? 
    Pretty interesting!
    
    Greg 

    While stepping it out on "The Gauntlet" at my gym, I was watching VH1
    on the TV above me.  A video comes on with Beck and Clapton doing
    "Further on Down the Road".  The scene looked like a live recording,
    they were on a soundstage.  Anyway, I missed the graphic, is that tune
    from a Beck/Clapton album?  BTW, I loved the tune...killer blooz.
    Beck's Telecaster was sweet!
    
    Steve

    I also saw that one recently Steve!  Apparently it's gotten into their
    circulation.  Beck was wailing, wasn't he!!  I noticed he had
    humbuckers in that Tele...
    
    It's from "The Secret Policeman's Other Ball".
    
    Greg                      

    Re last 2
    
    	Is the song you are thinking of "Further on up the road"?
    If so from what I understand it is an old standard. I have
    a live version of EC playing it at the Filmore theatre in 1970
    something.
    
    P.K.

    yes its from the SPOB, I'd say its out of print by now, they did a few
    other songs together....its been awhile but heres from my faded memory
    
    	Between two lovers 
    	Further on up the road
    	
    there is one other but I can think of it right now....Ill look it up
    
    Chris

There is a pretty good live version of the song on the 70's "EC was here" album.
The original song was written by Bobby Blue Bland? or something like that...

dbii

    I had a chance to watch and listen to Clapton's "24 Nights" video over 
    the weekend, and I have to change my opinion of him somewhat.  I had 
    thought he was pretty much a has-been as a guitarist, a much better song
    writer than player these days.  I still love his early work, but almost
    all the studio work he's done in the post-Derek years has impressed me 
    more for the songs than for the guitar playing.

    However, this video shows he can still play live.  He's certainly not 
    "cutting edge", but he did some sweet blues and all his playing was worth
    listening to.  Maybe it was the best 90 minutes out of 24 shows, I don't 
    know, but I enjoyed it a lot and recommend it to anyone who likes guitar-
    oriented music, Clapton fan or not.

    Dave

    
    I attended one of the 24 nights and was dissapointed. Straight
    commercial exploitation if you ask me.
    
    Richard

    Really?  In what way?  What did they leave out of the video?  Was I
    duped?  Tell me more!
    
    Dave

    I've seen 10cc a couple of times a few years ago, and they were some of
    the best concerts I've been to also. Incredibly talented musicians,
    who's swap instruments between numbers (drummer would play guitar,
    pianist would play drums, singer would play bass etc)
    
    If they're around, go
    
    Pete

    Hey, who is in 10cc nowadays anyway?
    
    /old_wild_man

    Now all you clap-heads can get even more wonderous information
    regarding your idol...
    
    
Article 38510 of rec.music.makers:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!ames!sgiblab!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.univie.ac.at!fstgds15.tu-graz.ac.at!aganovic
From: aganovic@sztma.tu-graz.ac.at (Ammar Aganovic)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers
Subject: MAILINGLIST: CLAPTON
Date: 15 Dec 1993 13:12:30 GMT
Organization: Graz University of Technology, Austria
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <2en2fuINNqqs@fstgds15.tu-graz.ac.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fsztmap03.tu-graz.ac.at
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

                                             
mail to: slowhand-request@daacdev1.stx.com
send the word "subscribe" in the body and subject. 

Article 38545 of rec.music.makers:
Xref: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com rec.music.beatles:32490 rec.music.bluenote:34993 rec.music.compose:4680 rec.music.dylan:13674 rec.music.makers:38545 rec.music.makers.bass:7098 rec.music.makers.guitar:12649 rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic:1724 rec.music.makers.percussion:2916 rec.music.misc:137547
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!decwrl!uunet!news.univie.ac.at!fstgds15.tu-graz.ac.at!aganovic
From: aganovic@sztma.tu-graz.ac.at (Ammar Aganovic)
Newsgroups: rec.music.beatles,rec.music.bluenote,rec.music.compose,rec.music.dylan,rec.music.makers,rec.music.makers.bass,rec.music.makers.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic,rec.music.makers.percussion,rec.music.misc
Subject: ** ERIC CLAPTON MAILING LIST **
Date: 16 Dec 1993 09:58:30 GMT
Organization: Graz University of Technology, Austria
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <2epbg6INNe32@fstgds15.tu-graz.ac.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fsztmap04.tu-graz.ac.at
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]


                          **** SLOWHAND ****

last update: 15-dec-1993

Welcome to slowhand, the Eric Clapton mailing list!

This is a digestified list which means you will at most receive one message
a day containing all of the messages sent to it.

send messages to (these go to everybody): slowhand@daacdev1.stx.com
---->	send maintenance messsages to: slowhand-request@daacdev1.stx.com
---->	[maint msgs are like email addr mods, (un)subscribe, etc] 
send messages direct to listowner: slowhand-owner@daacdev1.stx.com
send urgent messages to everybody ASAP: slowhand-urgent@daacdev1.stx.com
there is currently no FAQ list, any volunteers?

there is also a slowhand FTP server, for access:

	ftp daacdev1.stx.com
	login: anonymous
	password: use your full email address
	cd pub/slowhand
	and poke around.

Back issues of the digest are in /pub/slowhand/archive.

The incoming ftp box is now open to drop files off in:

	ftp daacdev1.stx.com
	cd /pub/slowhand/incoming	# not /incoming
	mput <whatever>

------------------------------------- END INTRO -------------------------