Conference napalm::guitar

    Brian,
    
    You've posed some pretty good questions here that should spawn
    off some good discussions on the topic of GAIN.
    
    In my opinion there is a differencce to having enough gain,
    and having enough useable gain.  Some of the ill effects of gain
    you've mentioned, and almost all of them can be cured making
    a TON of gain very useable.  This is what causes us guitar players
    to always be on the prowl for the "perfect amp".
    
>   1. Feedback (unwanted, often from undamped strings)
    
    Squeels and squeeks are almost always caused by less efficient
    pickups that pick up interference and then introduce that to the
    already hyper gain in your amp (or pedal).  Vintage guitars are 
    notorious for these squeels.  The pickups that have become popular
    lately are well potted...Almost to the point of frustration !
    I can stand in front of my amp (set real loud) with the volume on my
    guitar (Charvel, Ibanez) up and barely get a squawk out of it.
    If you try that with a older guitar with stock pickups, you'll
    undoubtably walk away with bloody ears from a glass shattering
    squeel.
    
    To me, the only feedback you want from your rig is when your holding 
    a sustained power chord (or note),  and it modulates to the upper
    registers.
    
    There are SO MANY types of distortions too.  Listen to Claptons
    distorted tones (Women Tone perhaps), then  listen to George Lynchs
    tone.  One extreme to another.  And there are an infinite number of
    stops in between !
    
>   2. Inability to play chords (too much intermodulation distortion)
    
    You might notice that guitarists who use unholy gain don't generally
    play a full chord, but more often roots, fifths and intervals (power
    chords).  Some notes just don't modulate well with tons of gain.
    I think it's from the harmonics created by the distortion trying
    to blend with 7ths, 9ths etc... There are some applications though.
    
>   3. Washing out in the mix...yeah it sound fat when playing solo, but
    seems to melt right into a mix of other instruments.
    
    I ran into this with the last band I played with.  By the time I got
    loud enough to be heard over the mix, I was cutting peoples heads off.
    The other guitarist in RnR (Steve Dandrea) played real low gain/low
    distortion.  Along with lots of gain (like in my set up), you get a LOT
    of natural compression.  Ergo, you lose the dynamics of the signal.
    It hurt the mix that Steve and I didn't have similar tones.  Now when I
    played Jerry "Scary" White, we didn't have the problem because we were
    both set up similarly (with gobs of gain).  In a nut shell, highly
    compressed tones will lose out to a relatively un-compressed tone
    EVERY time.
    
>   4. Too much noise, all the hums, buzzes and other gremlins come through
       loud and clear.
    
    A problem caused by (among other things):
    
    - Cord shielding (none, or very little)
    - Unpotted pickups 
    - Transistorized distortion boxes, compressors etc...
    - Lack of noise reduciton equipment
    
    Theres a million reasons and causes.  People spend thousands of dollars
    in search of the perfect rig.  One which provides variable amounts
    (from a little to a LOT) of USEABLE gain.  What "perfect distortion"
    is to me is a personal taste.  I know I've gone thru a lot of equipment
    looking for the perfect buzz...And I'll probably look for more in the
    future.  But for now, my MP1 Preamp (for buzz and EQ), my Hush II (for
    noise reduction, DSP128+ and power amp are what I consider perfect.
    But give me time, something new will come along.   ;)
    
    Some thoughts from Dixie.
    
    jc
    

    FYI, I started this very same note earlier in this conference!
    
    A dir/tit=gain should prove my point.

    I notice too, that the more additional harmonics you add via distortion
    (via a lot of gain) the more you overshadow the natural harmonics of
    the instrument.  So to really hear what your *guitar* (as opposed to
    the whole setup) sounds like, you have to back off of the distortion.
    
    Will

    
    
    	I'd like to apply this topic to bass amps as well.
    
    	I've always had a problem hearing my bass, even though
    	I've got an amp that is plenty loud (350W into 4 ohms.).
    
    	The other band members don't seem to have any problem
    	hearing me, but I just can't hear myself.
    
    	Any ideas on how to fix this? 
    
    -Tom
    

    
    	Coop!  Mark this date.  I pretty much agree with everything
    	you said.  Well stated too buddy.
    
    	-pat (Odie)

    
    	Tom - 
    
    	A couple ideas real quick:
    
    	1. Like the man just said, a compressed sound beats an uncompressed
    	one in terms of "being heard" every time. Try a compressor.
    
    	2. Since you bandmates can hear you well, maybe you're standing
    	too close to your amp. Bass frequencies have long physical
	wavelengths and your "focus" may be several feet out in front
	of your speakers! Put the cab on the opposite side of the stage
    	perhaps - try it and see if you cant hear better.
    
    	Joe
    

    
    Re: .4
    
    Geez, Tom, this is getting to be a habit with you  8^)  8^)
    
    Some things to keep in mind:
    
    1. Psychology
    
    I notice this phenomenon with vocals as well.  Singers (myself 
    included) seem to always complain about not hearing themselves when
    everyone else in the band hears them fine.  
    
    2. Speaker Placement
    
    Try putting your cab(s) up in the air so they are at chest level. 
    You'll be amazed at how much better you can hear it.  Or try tilting it
    up off the floor at you (like a monitor wedge).  
    
    3. Place Yourself
    
    Try standing in different locations relative to the cab.  In a room I
    play in regularly standing in a corner *behind* the bass amp sounds
    better to me than standing in front of it.  Try sitting on your
    cabinet, the physical sensation makes it seem like you can hear it
    better...another psychological trick.    
    

    I experience the same effect. I believe it is largely psychological;
    if I hand the bass off to someone else, it sounds louder than if I'm
    playing it myself.  Perhaps something about using the parts of your
    brain that control the playing functions steals some CPU cycles from
    the listening functions.  I've found you have to learn to hear yourself
    in a band situation, and resist the immediate urge to just turn up.

    Re. .4
    
    Tom, I'm running across the same problem in my band from time to
    time.  When the band starts cranking, it seems to me that my bass
    volume is too low, though I am assured it sounds fine. The temptation
    is to turn up ... but then the band turns up ... the drummer starts
    complaining that he has to pound to be heard .... the crowd starts
    to walk out ....ad nauseam ..... :^(
    
    I used to get pretty steamed at this, but lately I've found a working
    solution.  Our steel player can play bass, so I sometimes have him
    play my bass while I give it a listen.  I instruct him not to alter
    any of the settings.  And you know what?  I can hear the bass
    perfectly, every time!
    
    It might be a psychological thing:  when you are not actually
    making the notes, maybe you can hear them better?  Could it be like
    the difference between how your singing sounds to you, and how it
    sounds to another person?  
    
    I don't know how to label it; I only know that it seems to work
    for me.  So Tom, find someone to fill in for a song, and give a
    listen; you might be pleasantly surprised how nice your bass REALLY
    sounds!
    
    						--Eric--
    
    

    
    
       I refuse to get into volume wars.....I set my gain and go with it.
    It takes some discipline to keep from turning up but I fight the im-
    pulse. Sometimes I think I'm too loud and I have to resist turning
    down. 8-)
    
        Anyway, the advice to reposition your cab is good advice. However
    the keys/vocalist in the band I was just with used to tilt his amp cab 
    so he could hear it, thinks he's too loud, and turns down so the
    audience doesn't hear him....now you know one of the reasons I left....
    it was madness after a while.
    
    - Bob
    

    
    
    	Sounds like a broken record.. Eh, Brian? :-) ('cept this time
    I'm not gonna try to solve it by buying more power amps :-))
    
    	I'm gonna try moving away from the cab at practice this weekend.
    I'll see how it goes. Any suggestions on how to get a 1X15 cab up
    to chest level? This sounds liek a good idea too.
    
    
    

    Guitar amps are *very* directional. When I was playing with the
    Disturbers, which had three guitars and a bass, I set my amp up almost
    at ear level and stood directly in front of it. If I moved away even a
    couple of feet I couldn't hear myself. In addition I had to insist that
    the other guitarists did likewise, otherwise they would get so loud
    that even standing right in front of my amp I couldn't hear myself!
    
    I think most rock musicians have very little conception of ensemble
    playing and balance. Everyone wants to just crank their *own* volume up
    to a level that is comfortable for them, resulting in escalating volume
    wars. As far as I'm concerned this is largely responsible for the lack
    of club work that so many people complain about. The average music
    lover doesn't want to spend money to stand in front of a group of
    people who spend the evening competing for the opportunity to blast
    them into the back wall of the club.
    
    Now that I got that off my chest, a word on GAIN. One of the
    interesting things about this is that in spite of the fact that
    solid-state distortion lacks the warmth and character of tube
    distortion, one thing I would say for it is that it is "cleaner".
    I use both types, and my amp has more gain than anyone could possibly
    use effectively, but I find that the solid-state distortion is much
    more appropriate for much of what I do because it is cleaner and cuts
    better. Maybe if I had a compressor inserted at the appropriate place
    in the pre-amp chain it would clean up the tube distortion, but I
    suspect it's largely a result of the tube distortion just being dirtier
    in terms of the harmonic overtones that are being generated.
    
    Given the choice, I would always use tube distortion when playing
    alone. But it's not always the best choice when trying to cut through.
    
    - Ram

    Setting a gain level is only one element in finding your sound.
    I find that when i'm looking for a good tone ,and one thats right
    for each pickup and phase setting that one Gain setting doesnt cut it.
    Typically what happens is I set a clean tone and a OD tone on two diff
    channels with two diff gain settings.This works for me currently
    because I am playing one genre of music only.
    I've had terrible probs in the past do Weddings ,GB stuff its to hard
    to get the right tone for each song going from one extreme to another.
    BTW. Gain and Volume level settings are not the same thing to me.
    When we have VOlume probs. we simply reset that is everyone turns way
    down.
    I think if you pay alot of attention to your tone ,i.e. I try to use 
    several tone settings in a song if poss.You will find a comfort zone
    in Balancing your gain via your preamp,amp,and effects.
    Also re: Bass amps a compressor/limiter is a must IMO.
    
    Later,
    Armen k.
     
    

    
    I was just sittin' here and reflecting on last time I plugged into my
    Mesa Boogie.  I seem to recall that even after an ample time for the 
    tubes to warm up, I was turning the gain up initially.  Then, as the
    solo practice wore on, I was turning the gain down.  
    
    Am I the only one who goes thru this?  Anyone else want to comment???
    
    J.

    Yo Pat!  Amazing ain't it ??
    ;)
                                                     
    RE: Compressed tones...
    
    No, no... I said a compressed tone LOSES out to a non compressed tone.
    Basically, because with lots of compression, you lose your dynamics.
    Ergo, no matter how hard you attack the strings, it all comes out
    the same.
    
    RE: Psychological ?
    
    Yep.  I don't think anyone is loud enough for their own liking
    in an ensemble situation.  I think thats normal too.
    
    RE: Tube vs. Solid State.
    
    I've noticed one other thing.  With a high tech rig, it's very
    difficult to emulate a "vintage" tone.  Without slagging off
    on vintage amps, it's simply because it's hard to make a real
    clean distortion unit sound like a "not-so-clean" batch of 6L6
    tubes having their testes squeezed.  ;)  I spent a lot of
    programming time on my ADA to get a decent "Fender Twin"
    tone, and it's still too clean to be a Fender...
    
    On the other hand, my MP1 (with 12AX7's) produces very clean
    distortion.  I suspect that the gents at ADA spent a lot of time making
    those tubes sing like solid state, without loosing the warmth
    the tubes generate.  I know it doesn't sound much like a plain-jane
    Marshall...It's too clean.
    
    But, in ADA's defense; I bought the MP1 because of the Quality
    of the distortions, not to emulate an old amp.  In short,
    if you want to sound like a 20 year old Fender, buy a 
    20 year old Fender amp !
    
    J. - I noticed this with my Marshalls.  The hotter the tubes get 
    the more gain they produce.  I think it's normal. BUT...
    NEVER, but NEVER turn DOWN the gain !    ;)

    Distortion is rude. 

    Re: Bass or 6 strng guitar and the useage of compression= loss of tone.
    Try less comp. and more limiting for added tone.
    Let the amp/speaker provide the coloration.
    
    Re: Amps that have little or no Tone,I find that most solid state 
    Peavey amps deliver tons of power but don't offer beans worth of tone.
    While the opposite is true with Fender amps.
    
    Any Comments , Rat Holes or Others  Welcome! 
    
    Armen k.

    
    Coop.  I was referring to the fact that even after the tubes are 
    warmed, I find myself turning the gain down a little.  For instance, 
    playing for about 1/2 hour or so, putting the Boogie in standby, coming
    back 10 to 15 minutes later...
    
    J. Forever experimenting...

    
    Gain is really like any other effect in that you have to learn how to
    control it as opposed to it controlling you.  
    
    If you set the Rat pedal at max and try to play chords with your right
    hand away from the bridge, it's going to sound lousy.  It just won't
    sound very good if you start to strum like you're playing an acoustic.     
    You have to realize that some notes will carry for a loooong time and
    you have to be ready to mute with your right hand.  
      
    You also have to be prepared to tweak your other settings.  If you like
    to play on the neck pickup with lots of bass, you've got your work cut
    out for you when you crank that preamp to 11.  You can do it, but you
    have to learn through experience where it will work and where it won't.
    There's a big difference between usable gain and sounding muddy.
    
    
    The amount of usable gain is also determined by your equipment.  That
    is, if your're playing a '50s Paul with soap bar pickups and you're
    trying to sound like Satch, it's only a matter of time before they
    start to howl and feedback.  Southern rock would be cool, metal would
    be next to impossible.
    
    I guess the important thing is to know what the guitar is going to do
    before it happens. 
    
  
    Kevin                                           
    
    PS. I've got one guitar with a Duncan Jeff Beck humbucker AND and a
    killer onboard preamp.  I've got tons of gain before I ever get near
    the amplifier. Too much?  Nah!  8-)
    
    
    
    
    
    
     
    

    100 Watt marshalls sound better with massive gain than 50's.
    The sound is more distinct, you can hear the notes -albeit the
    distorted notes - better.
    I bet the 400W boogie stereo head can take even more gain before the
    sound becomes unintelligible. 

    re: .17-  get out of town! That kind of stuff belongs in the
    long gone stupid "my amp's bigger/better/louder/more expensive/cheaper
     baloney notes from maybe six months ago......so let's get on with some
    constructive ideas... When you feel you can't get the "sound" out of
    your amp when it's above a certain volume you can usually fix it up 
    by a slight (say 2 or 3 clicks)on the dial. The problem I usually
    see is that folks tend to turn a treble or midrange control way 
    up and then the headroom of the amp is taken away leaving no 
    dynamic range to the final sound......listen to Michael 
    Schenker if you want to hear TONE. Preferably a UFO album.
    His git' sings and has bite but is so sweet. In short it's
    great if your gain goes to 11 -BUT PU-LEASE not your tone
    controls!!!!!!
    _Bill
     

    
    Killer guitar tone on QR's Empire!!!
    Killer tone from Ronnie LeTekro, George Lynch("Heaven Comes Down"),
    Tory from Hydra and his Mosfet Marshall, and Sasha from Eden and his 
    Boogie .50 Caliber.
    
    Heck everybody else's rigs always sound better!!!  ;^)
    
    But back to the basic note on gain and volume.
    
    I found that I was being fooled all this time.  Since we were
    practicing at a very loud volume, I was wearing ear plugs all the time.
    Then about a month ago, standing outside, but directly infront of the 
    amp without earplugs, KERRRANGGGGG.  Yuck!!!  What an ugly tone!!!!
    Backed off on gain a little, up the mids a little, kill the treble
    a little, and bingo, J's happy again.
    
    
    J.

    Bad thing about practicing tones, is that most players tend to kick up
    the highs so they can be heard.  But in a live situation, you need to
    back off of the highs some, which will give you the illusion of MORE
    GAIN.  
    
    Scary (who doesn't need much gain these days, unless I'm practicing)