Conference napalm::guitar

    I'll start.
    
    Take your typical Marshall tone (if there is one) and:
    
    1. Add reverb.
    Notice how it takes the edge off ?  Nice touch, eh ?
    
    2. Add sonic maximizer/aural exciter.
    You get some edge/high end back.
    
    3. Add delay.
    All the notes get mucky.
    
    What else ?  How can we counter act these sometimes annoying effects ??
    
    jc

    >Take your typical Marshall tone (if there is one) and:
    > 
    >1. Add reverb.
    >Notice how it takes the edge off ?  Nice touch, eh ?
    >
    >2. Add sonic maximizer/aural exciter.
    >You get some edge/high end back.
    >
    >3. Add delay.
    >All the notes get mucky.
    
    and you realize why did I f*** with it in the first place!!!
    ;^)
    

    Well, think of what each effect does...
    
    Reverb mixes in reverberant echoes, which in the real world have less
    highs than the source.  So, of course the overall tone "mellows". 
    Depending on the reverb algorithm you may be able to get weird EQ with
    strnage peaks an valleys in the response curve (kind of like playing in
    a subway tunnel versus Carnegie Hall).
    
    Chorus, flange and phasing all produce comb filter effects which remove
    certain frequency bands from the signal.  This makes the remaining
    bands jump out.
    
    Delays can "muddy" your sound because the repeats have (usually) the
    same frequency content, so they will tend to obscure the original
    signal.  On analog and tape delays, you can also get low end rumbles
    built up as various low frequency garbage (hums, etc.) get regenerated.
    Digital machines can sometimes build "grunge" up in the loop if you
    drive them with too hot a signal.
    
    Compression can change the tone by boosting frequencies which were weak
    in the original signal.
    
    As for exciters, etc. most of them make the sound way too edgy fro my
    taste.  I'd rather spend money on stuff with decent high end response
    than have to "recreate" my high end later!
    
    							Brian

			MENU OF EFFECTS
			===============

SOUND CHARACTER
DESIRED			DESCRIPTION			EFFECT UNIT
---------------		-----------			-----------

Sustain w/o 		Compresses the signal to 	Compressor/Limiters.
distortion:		sustain sound longer.		

Sustain with 		Mild Distortion.		Overdrive effects.
distortion:
			Moderate Distortion.		Distortion effects.

			Heavy Distortion.		Heavy Metal Distortion.

Change the tonal	Equalizes the frequencies	Graphic or parametric 
quality:		to change the sound.		equalizers.

			Adds an edge or bite		Harmonics amplifying.
			to the sound.			

Add a delay to		Short mult-tap for 		Reverberation effects.
the sound:		reverberant ambiance.
			Reverb effect for smoothing
			and thickening sound.

			Long delay for doubling		Analog or Digital 
			slap back, echoes, etc.		Delays.

Add a note an octave	Creates a note on octave	Octave generating
lower(or higher):	below or above original note.	effects/pitch shifters.

Add color and		Creates phasing & doppler	Phasing effects.
character to the 	effects with comb filtering.
sound:
			Adds reverberation to the 	Reverberation effects.
			signal.

Modulation effects:	Add chorus effects to the 	Chorusing.
			sound(chorus sounds like
			multiple instruments playing
			at the same time: a 6-string
			guitar sounds like a 12-string.)

			Creates deep comb filter.	Flanging effects.

			Adds a "Wah" effect to 		"Wah" pedals and 
			the sound.			Envelope filters.

Create a stereo		Makes a stereo effect for	Any "coloring"effects
effect for stereo	stereo outputs.			with stereo outputs.
amplifiers:

Amplify low-level, 	Adds up to 17dB of signal	Pre-amplifier.
high-impedence	 	level.
pickups:

Add the edge of bite	Amplifies the harmonic 		Harmonics amplifying
to the sound:		content of the signal.		effects.

Reduce the noise:	Gates noise, switches		Noise Gates and single
			effects loops in and out.	ended noise reduction
							units.
    
			

I've always believed less is better.  I do like a splash of delay, set
back so as not to interupt the original signals.  Chours/Flange, basically
there effects I use when the time calls for it.  I don't use any
of the modulation effects when using an overdriven sound.  Clean thou
is a different story.  Chorous w/clean settings is a personal fav.

For all I need, my Digitech DSP128+ is more than enough.  

    I've been wondering about how adding effects to the signal before it
    gets to the speakers in your cabinet (or combo) affects the way the
    speakers respond.  
    
    Suppose you take Coops example of a nice Marshall sound, what happens
    to your speakers if you stick a bunch of reverb on it?  I'm starting to
    think that it has a severe impact at the speaker, since most guitar
    speakers have a characteristic sound.  Maybe the only way to get a good
    sound from that setup is to add certain effects AFTER the speakers had
    it's way with your signal, ie mike it and add reverb at the board.
    
    I had some friends (non-musicians, but they enjoy listening to music)
    visiting from out of town the other day and I was showing off my amps
    and stuff and they seemed mildly impressed with my MP-1.  But when I
    added some reverb and stuff with the SGE, they seemed really blown
    away.  One guy commented about how much more "professional" it sounded
    with the effects.
    
    Since we're talking about this, I have a problem that I'd like to run
    by you all.  I'm currently using my MP-1 into the effects return of my
    Kitty Hawk head.  I'm using the volume control on the MP-1 to control
    the final output volume and running the M3 at a relatively high master
    volume level.  This sounds great and gives me the flexability I've been
    looking for in an amp/preamp.  However (here's the problem), if I stick
    my multi-efx unit in between the MP-1 and the M3 I can no longer
    control the volume using the patch level or the front panel knob on the
    MP-1 since I have to match it's output level to the SGE's input level. 
    How can I get this control back??  How do others of you that use
    multieffects unit's (especially in a rack rig with a seperate preamp)
    deal with this situation?
    
    Greg
                             

Greg,

I think your having this problem because your not running at line level
on the SGE.  I run my MP1 straight thru my DSP128+ and Hush with the input
level wide open and set to line...I run my power amp at 1/2 volume and
control the volume with the MP1 knob.

How about running the SGE in the FX loop of the MP1 ?

jc (Who sez: then you can run the MP1 with our without the SGE)

I've noticed a few things. To echo what Greg said about non-musician's 
perceptions of effects, ye[p a little reverb etc, will really make it sound
"professional".

I also noted somewhere else that I prefer my chorus and flange to be pre-dist.
This is to keep it from getting to muddy. What i've done instead is create
a chorus/flage for clean sounds and one for dirty with the difference being 
that the dirty patch has less depth on the effect. This helps.

I have a tendancy to keep adding reverb until the original signal kinda
drops out. So now I check my patches with another ear.

most multi-effects units have the capability to bury your sound in the mush.
use with a light finger on the mix...

I'm only using a 1-4 effects unit (Quadraverb) I can't imagine having a use 
for 12 at once...

dbii

    I do the opposite of what Dave does(chorus->dist), and have had better
    results tone-wise, although I don't have tons of equipment like some of
    you guys.  My reasoning is this, the chorus affects the "whole"
    distorted sound; rather than chorusing the signal, then distorting the
    chorused bit.  The chorus acts as a "clean-up", if you will, giving the
    signal a little breathing room back.  
    
    After all that nonsense, it goes to the DDL, which again, affects the
    "whole" sound.  I've found this to work the best for my ears, always
    keeping the ol' distorto-matic at the beginning of the chain.
    
    Only thing I ever put in front of the dist. was an octave pedal,
    because the octave freaked if I didn't.
    
    Again, I don't have 4 figures worth of signal processing gear, and this
    could be the reason my logic worked/s.  I'm interested in the new SGE
    Mach II, the twelve effects at once *is* overkill, but I also don't want
    to be limited to 4 like the DSP (supposedly, that's what I read on the 
    spec sheet.)  If any of you owners of the SGE stuff could point to a
    note with a review, or if you were feeling particulary benevolent give
    me mail, it would all be appreciated.  
    
    ADVthanksANCE
    
    						/c
    

Personal opinion here (from an EX-SGE owner who is now a DSP128+ owner...)

Who needs more than say:

Reverb, Delay, Chorus/flange, and EQ at once ?

I owned the SGE and I never used more than 1 or two FX at once...
And still sounded decent I mean...

jc (The SGE was neat, but definately not for me)

    
    I agree with Coop.  I really don't see a point in having more than
    3 or 4 effects at once capability.  I test drove an SGE extensively,
    since I knew the guy at the music store and he let me take it home 
    for about a week, and I was not as impressed with the unit as I was
    with the DSP.  
    
    Since I have a Boogie MKIII which has an incredible lead tone and 
    sustain, I saw a little need for paying $250 more for the SGE anyways...
    DSP128+ does a beautiful job of "enhancing" my boogie's natural tone
    without the overkill.  I bought the DSP about 8 months ago, and I have
    not bought any other EFX unit since then; this is a personal record.
    I have never been as happy with my tone as I have been since hooking up 
    the DSP with the Boogie.  
    
    J.

      Hey I like/use my SGE. I've said it before but here goes again:
    I don't use ANY factory patches, and MY patches are set up to work
    with my Kitty Hawk rack quite well, and the effects are used sparingly.
    Although people stand back when I hit my Maniac Flange patch. 
      I think the new GSP21 looks interesting, I'm gonna test drive
    it soon. All the good stuff I've heard from you DSP owners leads
    me to believe this new unit is gonna kick major butt!
    
    						-BooM-

    
    Right now I don't use any effects at all.  Well, maybe a little onboard
    reverb.  I have tried a friend's DSP 128+ and loved it.  Maybe I'll end
    up with one sooner or later.  The problem is that once I get one of
    those things, I'll feel like I should "get the most out of it" instead
    of using it when the song needs it.
    
    Kevin
    
    

    I find that working without efx limits me too much, but too much
    of a good thing is no good either. That's why I always use efx
    sparingly. 
    
    My Amp has tube distortion and spring reverb built-in. I generally
    use a MidiverbII and a compressor/sustainer with it. Any more than
    that just tends to muddy up the sound. Most people would complain
    that the MidiverbII only allows one efffect at a time. To me this is
    a plus, because it prevents overkill. 
    
    I believe that any effects unit that has a wide bandwidth and doesn't
    produce much noise is usable. I'm sure an SGE can do a nice job if
    the efx are used sparingly. Just because you have 15 differant efx
    in there doesn't mean you have to use them all simultaneously. 
    Theoretically, all Digital delays should sound exactly the same. They
    all have the same basic effect on the note, and becasue they use 
    digital circuitry, the delayed note should sound exactly the same as
    the original. 
     
    Mark
    

	FX free except for a little on-board reverb. If I had Fender
	vibrato I'm sure I'd use it.

In my opinion, we all suffer from what Kevin described.

"If they are all there, then we gotta use them to get the most out
 of it!"

I bet *Everybody* who has bought or used a multieffect has had a patch
that was "just too much".  However, I think that wears off, and when your
feet are back on the ground, you learn to use them to enhance rather
than smother....But good point Kevin.

jc

    "The best sounds still come from a great guitar into a great amp.
    Period.  Ultimately, when you plug the guitar into the amp, all of a 
    sudden it becomes more important what you play than how it sounds."
    
    - James Hollihan, Jr. on effects

    Who is this James Hollihan, Jr. ?????
    
    "The best sounds still come from a great guitar and a great beer.
    Period. (Burp)"
    
    - Hubcap Brian on Guiness stout

RE: -.1
I'm rooooolling....

    re .18
    
    Be forewarned, my name is a registered trademark.  Mention
    in this or any notesfile is subject to compensation.  You'll
    be hearing from my attorney
    
    :-)

    Good one, Brian!!!
        
    Just so it follows the discussion a little.  Like John, I almost never
    use more then two or three effects at once from my SGE (when I use it). 
    I might use a little more if I didn't get great distortion from my amp.
    
    When I bought the SGE, I was using an amp I couldn't get distortion I
    liked from (at anywhere near reasonable volumes), so one of it's big
    selling points was it's distortion.  Through various coincidental
    purchases since then, I no longer need this.  I'd like the SGE a lot
    better if it had a better EQ section.  Three bands of graphic EQ really
    don't help a whole lot.  If I had to purchase something to go with my
    current rig, I would not buy the SGE I just don't need what it does. 
    I'd probably get something like a DSP-128+ or a Quadraverb.
    
    The only effects I'm currently using are EQ, reverb, delay, and chorus.
    
    Greg

>    Who is this James Hollihan, Jr. ?????
    
    Lead guitarist for Russ Taff.  He's also done session work for Phil
    Keaggy (on the "Sunday's Child" release), Kim Boyce, Steve Camp, and
    millions of jingles in Nashville.
    
    Mike

    
    Hey, guys.  I didn't mean to start "Well, my rig is better than yours"
    contest by my reply...  Like Greg said it, also, I just didn't need
    distortion, and it seemed like dsp128+ just fit the bill.  SGE is an
    excellent unit, and I probably would have bought it if I didn't have 
    my boogie...
    
    J.

A long time ago when I was looking at GP8's back in my PMRP 
(pre-midi-rackpuke) days, a friend told me that it was against his 
principles to have a single rack box that supplied distortions and 
powered analog FX in the same box as digital FX (delay, reverb etc...).  
I should've listened to him.  Thanks for trying Buck.

While I'm bummin' about buying my SGE, I should point out that I was 
trying to make it do something that it wasn't capable of doing.
I wanted a rack box that I could hook up to a power amp and have
a two space monster...I ended up getting a four space monster.

jc (distortion seperate from DDL/DDR)

    FWIW, if the SGE would function as a preamp, it would be just about
    ideal.  From the way the parameters are layed out and all, it seems
    clear that it was intended to be used primarily before the preamp of an
    amp that's set to run clean.  
    
    I mean, you typically don't want things like delay effects and reverb
    before distortion.  If you stick it in the effects loop (or after a
    seperate preamp) then you get things like compression, overdrive, EQ,
    pitch transpose, and such that you might want before the preamp after
    it.  It has parameters for where you want some of the effects in the
    chain, so if you're using it exclusively for ALL effects (including
    distortion) then it's wonderful.  If you're using something else for
    distortion, it's more clumsy.
    
    Greg

    
    One problem that I had with any rackmount thru my FX loop was that
    the noise gate became ineffective.  Right now, I'm using DOD noise 
    gate pedal to solve this problem...
    
    J.

>While I'm bummin' about buying my SGE, I should point out that I was 
>trying to make it do something that it wasn't capable of doing.
>I wanted a rack box that I could hook up to a power amp and have
>a two space monster...I ended up getting a four space monster.
    
    Coop, a GP-16 + an SP1000 = 2 space monster.  The GP-16 seems to cover
    all the bases if you have the $$$.
    
    Mike

I can't say I've played with one of these beasts, but I looked at the
price tag, shook my head, muttered obscenities about Roland and
walked over to the next rack.  ;)  Seriously though, 
I'm very happy with what I've got, but would try any toy
that said MIDI on it.  ;)

jc - GTS

    It just so happens that the title of this topic is something which I've
    been wondering about lately. At some point in the not to distant
    future, I'd like to be able get synth sounds by using my guitar. Now I
    know about the Casio guitar and the Roland triggering device, but I'm
    not sure if using one of these MIDI devices like the Roland GS 800 does 
    the same thing? Which of the three is best? Are there any better? IS
    the technology going to keep getting better? (After all, the Roland
    triggering device is advertised as triggering at 8 mSec. which is
    pretty goddam fast I think)

    
    If you think 8 ms is fast, try this experiment:
    
    Plug into a digital delay (borrow one if you must) and set the delay
    time at 8 ms.  Now set the output to delay only (i.e. no input present
    at output).  Start playing.  Can you feel the delay?
    
    Try settings of 5, 10, 12, 15 ms.  See if you can figure out how much
    of a delay you can get before it's detectable.  This will give you an
    idea of whether or not you will be able to handle the tracking delay on a
    MIDI guitar.
    
    							Brian

Good experiment Brian.  Seems like 8ms is a pretty long delay to me...
But I don't know much about guitar synth stuff...

This guy here at work has (or had) one of those Charvel MIDI synths.
Man, that thing WAS cool !  We're jammin' along to some Deep Purple
song and this guy is wailing away on an Ovation Acoustic, and it's
coming out like a B3 Hammond !

jc

    Getting a good organ patch out of a guitar synth is pretty easy,
    especially if your playing slow sustaining stuff. 
    
    There are two problems with pitch - midi converters that you need
    to keep in mind. First of all the delay that Brian explained. But
    you also have to remember that if you start firing notes off at
    blazing speeds the converter can't keep up with you and starts
    glitching. The faster you play, the more sensitive it is to pitch
    variations. For instance if you bend up between notes the controller 
    doesn't know if you want the the higher or lower interval. This
    problem increases when you start playing at speeds approaching the
    speed of the controller.
    
    They are making improvements in the technology, but it's not there
    yet.
    
    Mark
    
    

    
    Since I am using a tube preamp for my guitar, I am sort of keeping
    my eyes open for a guitar multiefx units that includes all the efx
    of the SGEII, or GP16 *without* the distortion or overdirve. I 
    just can't see getting a box with distortion to go with a tube
    preamp that does distortion better. I would like a single box that
    includes compressor-sustainer, chorus, flange, delay, reverb, pitch
    transpose, control outputs (like a midi-patchbay), and an envelope
    follower would be nice, too. The problem is that the only boxes
    that contain all this stuff also have distortion. 
    
    I just ran across an ad for an ART DR-X. This box comes close to
    what I want, but I'm not sure if it does it all, and the price
    seems a little on the high side. The DR-X includes compressor-
    limiter (not sure if it sustains), digital reverb, delay, chorus,
    flange, pitch transpose and a sampler. The list price is $629.
    
    Mark 

    Mark,
    
    Don't let the presence of distortion steer you aaway from an otherwise
    good box.
    
    The box I bought has distortion, but I don't use it for that, just the
    other FX.  At the price I got, it was the best deal.  If I ever should
    want to use the distortion,it's there for free, more or less.  Of
    course, if the same box had been available without the distortion for
    less money (such as the DSP-128+ vs. the GSP-5) I would have gone
    without, obviously.
    
    Remember, too that compression in the FX box means it will come after
    your distortion....you may not find the compression only useful in
    clean use, as a result.  
    
    Noone promised that multi-FX were a rose garden, eh?
    
    							Brian

    Damn, I guess there is just no way to get away from Stomp Boxes.
    
    By the way, I just recieved the latest catalog from "Musicians Friend".
    They have listings of several products by T.C. with a Heading that
    states "They're Back".  I just recently started getting interested
    in T.C. products, only to find that they were out of business. It's 
    good to know they are back in business. They make some of the best
    efx you can get, and also the most quiet.
    
    Mark
    
     

RE: .last

>They make some of the best efx you can get, and also the most quiet.

And also some of the most expensive !

But they are nice.

;)

jc (With some more insight to TC Electronics)

    
    Mark...
    
    The problem that I ran into before buying the 128+ was that if the
    unit had built in compressor and noise gate, they(noise gate especially)
    became ineffective with my Boogie's distortion on.  So why not use the
    built in distortion on the FX...  I didn't go out and buy a boogie to
    have a computer simulation concocted distortion going thru it, you
    know?
    
    The way I have everything set up now is:
    
    Guitar>>compressor pedal>>noisegate pedal>>Boogie preamp>>dsp128 in 
    FX loop>>Boogie mainamp.
    
    I tried my darndest to stay away from stomp boxes, but just wasn't 
    able to.  But afterwards, I found that this really is a good setup.
    Sort of best of both worlds since compressor and noisegate are 
    separately accessible AND I can move around in the patches with the
    3 button footswitch for the dsp128+.
    
    And one of the biggest problem with SGE at the time was that I didn't 
    want to spend another $150-$200 for a midi footcontroller bringing the 
    total price of the SGE way beyond twice what I paid for the 128+, 
    Yamaha compressor, and DOD Noisegate all put together.
    
    J.