Conference napalm::guitar

        Haven't thought  about  it  too  deeply, but a couple of things
        come to mind straight off:
        
        One apparent variable  shouldn't  be  -  if  you always tune to
        'concert pitch', then string  tension  is  a  factor  of string
        guage, and if you've kept  the  same  guage then that's not the
        answer.
        
        We're  then  left  with  action, which is a function of (string
        guage), neck angle, neck bow, bridge height and trem stiffness.
        The string tension  is still the same, but the apparent tension
        will vary - by  that,  I  mean that the feel will be different,
        which is what I _think_ you're asking about?
        
        Setting the neck is easy enough, but not something I'd  want to
        get  into  here, so let's  accept  that  it's  ok.    The  easy
        adjustments left are bridge height and  trem stiffness.  Again,
        it's easy to check that the trem  is  clean and horizontal, and
        pivots  easily - the counterbalance springs are only  there  to
        pull against the string tension.
        
        Bridge  height  -  given  a straight (relative) neck, with  the
        correct  amount  of  bow, then bring the bridge down until  the
        bass E _just_ rattles when played open, and then back off  just
        enough  to  get  it clean again.  If the bridge/trem has height
        adjustable saddles,  then  bring  the treble side down the same
        way and then raise it for a clean note.
        
        Hard to describe,  but  you  want the overall bridge height and
        individual string saddle adjustments,  such  that  the  strings
        follow the across neck profile  leaving  the  bridge, with just
        enough clearance over the fingerboard to  prevent fret rattles.
        Small adjustments are the secret here.
        
        The primary given has to be that  the  neck  is  correctly  set
        though,  with  no  warp  and a _slight_ bow,  which  is  almost
        entirely string guage/truss rod dependant.
        
        Light guages are easier to finger (less apparent tension  for a
        given  action).   Power  thrashing  means  greater  fingerboard
        clearance is required, which  of  course  feel  heavier  that a
        guitar with the same strings set up for delicacy.
        
        FWIW, hope this helps,
        
        Andy
        
        PS, Your mileage may vary.

    
    I noticed that my strat string tension was a little stiff doing bends.
    I have the trem "locked down" on my strat with the trem laying against
    the body.  I noticed however that I could lessen the spring tension
    (but still keep the trem locked down) and the bends were easier.  I
    suppose what is happening is that the trem is "giving" a little now
    on bends where before it wasn't.  Kind of a compromise between a
    floating and locked down trem.  Probably not what you needed to know,
    right?
    
    -pat

I read some place a LONG time ago, that Van Halen screwed beer caps
under his tail peice to lessen the angle his strings took over the saddles.
(obviously, this was long before he started working with Floyd-Dude.

...Not that I would ever speak to you again if you screwed a bud cap under
your tail piece.  ;)

jc

It's always felt to me that when you increase the angle over the bridge 
saddles, you increase string tension and when you decrease the angle of 
the strings over the saddle it decreases string tension.

It seems most noticable on Les Paul type guitars where you can adjust the 
height of the tailpiece to change that angle pretty dramatically.  

Greg

I'm having trouble following this discussion.  I understand that the meaning 
of a word gets changed over time by popular usage, but the last time I 
checked, "action" was a technical term meaning the distance between string 
and fret.  Has this changed?

I'm also a little unsure about the use of "tension".  Technically, tension
means the amount of force pulling on the string.  All other things being 
constant (same string, same pitch, same scale length, same guitar, etc.), 
changing the breaking angle over the saddle has no effect on string tension.  
It's theoretically possible to detect a change in the perceived "hardness"
of the string.  When the string is fretted, that part of the string between
the saddle and the point where the ball end is tied down will stretch less
if the breaking angle is steep, making the string feel "harder".  This is 
just because of increased friction between string and saddle.  I don't know if 
your fingers would detect this slight difference.

If the strings feel harder, I would suspect a slight change in the Action,
due to weather or whatever, or maybe something in the works that's now locked
down tighter than it used to be.  ...or maybe your fingers got soft. :^)

Bob

>It's always felt to me that when you increase the angle over the bridge 
>saddles, you increase string tension and when you decrease the angle of 
>the strings over the saddle it decreases string tension.

>Greg


You replied while I was typing.  That sounds consistent with what I was trying 
to say (if I understand what you mean by "tension"  :^) ).  I guess it really 
is perceptible.

Bob

Bob,

I didn't believe it at first either, but I tried it out and it really makes 
a tangible difference.

Greg

    
    
    	Pat, yes.. I've seen the same thing, this week, Greg, me too
    sharper angles make more string tension for me... Bob, yep string
    tension is as you describe (at least for my non-technical discussion of
    this black magic subject)... what I'm really talking about is that
    Newton-dudes 3rd law... or the coresponding force that created on my
    pinkies when I bend strings... Hee Hee.. I asked a jazz teacher at the
    store and he said.. "Bend??  Why would I want to do that, Steve???" 
    <grin>.. I think he was kidding.. anyways, listen to this:
    
    
    	I talk with this hyper mechanical engineer friend of mine (he's the
    smart one in our graduation picture) and he says that every force can
    be broken down into components that lie on X, Y and Z axises and that
    isoplanar discussions of a guitar trem system would be good enough ( I
    think that means x and y axis ).. anyway he started at the springs nad
    said and told me that he would guess that that further forward the END
    of the bridge (yep, the tiny holes where I insert the strings) the
    lower the tension on the strings cos the x force.. would get bigger
    pulling against the body and the y force (pulling down on the strings)
    would get less.   I'll try and text draw what I'm talking about:
    
    	String			Saddle              Force
                                                    X=0
    --------------------------|   |\                Y=Bigtime
                        	| |
    				| |                         <|
    ----//////////////////////--| |                          |
    			                                     |
                                                             V
    
    
    	AND... Lighter tension would be:
    
    
    
    	String			Saddle              Force
                                                    X=More
    --------------------------|   |\                Y=Less
                              -/ /                           X
    		              / /                         <----|
    ----///////////////////--/ /                               | Y
    			                                       |
                                                               V
    
    
    
    	I tried this by loosening the bridge mounting screws (tilting the
    bridge back slightly) and BINGO.. the string tension on my strat got
    lighter just like the guy said....  Anyone else ever try this??? 
    ANymore suggestions that might help me move string tension out of the
    black magic area and into the physical world??

RE: .8

Steve,

I'm not sure I followed what you were saying about the X,Y components of the 
tension, but if you tilted the bridge (saddle) back, then you also lowered
the action slightly, which could account for the softer feel.  Tilting back
would also slightly lengthen the effective string length.  If you maintain the 
same tuning, that would increase the string tension (tuning a string to the 
same pitch over a longer distance requires greater tension), but the effect 
on how the strings feel would probably be negligible compared to lowering 
the action.

The X component of tension in the short section of string behind the saddle 
doesn't really have any bearing on the tension in the playing section.  
Neither does the Y component.  The vector *sum* of these two components equals
the real tension in the string (the force in the strings own axis).  Ignoring
the friction between string and saddle (this is reasonable when everything
is stationary), the tension in both sections of the string is the same.

The real issues in how hard the strings feel are  1) how far do you have to
bend the string? and  2) how elastic is the total "system" that holds the
strings in place?  If the system "gives" when you bend the string, then 
you feel less tension in the bent string.  Depending on what part of the 
system gives, you might also have to bend it farther to get the same pitch.

It's really amazing what subtle mechanical differences can be felt by the 
human hand.

Bob

    
    
    	Thanks, Bob.. ummmm.. yeah it does seem (I've tried it on a couple
    of guitars now) that the more the y force is decreased (downward force
    on strings.. the easier to play the instrument...  I like what you had
    to say about flexibability.. but I've got to say that I've played to
    "like" (at least as far as I could see) Strats and the difference in
    action could be like night and day.....
    
    	As far as tilting the bridge saddle back, that does lengthen the
    string.. but then I ususally have to re intonate, whcih would move the
    string length back to whjat ever it was when I started.
    
    
    	So waht about it, fellers??  What do you do to make yer strings
    "slacker"??
    
    
    Steve
    
    (pie are not square, pie are round!)

>	So waht about it, fellers??  What do you do to make yer strings
>    "slacker"??

Use the trick Hendrix and Van Halen did a lot...Tune down a half step.

    
    RE; < So what about it, fellers??  What do you do to make yer strings
        < "slacker"??
    
    Go down to your nearest music store, trade your Fender in for a 
    Les Paul, you whimp!  ;^> x 10 Mega Zillion!
    
    Seriously, get a lighter gauge strings.  Usually .009 at high E usually
    doesn't offer me enough tension, ahem, but for some people, ahem, it's, 
    ahem, just perfect, ahem.
    
    J-Dot
    

>    RE; < So what about it, fellers??  What do you do to make yer strings
        < "slacker"??
    
        Re-read .1
        
        Seriously, if you keep the gauge the same and set the action as
        described,  such  that    the   bridge  curvature  follows  the
        fingerboard curvature _accurately_, then  it will play as light
        as the gauge of the strings.
        
        The angle of dangle behind  the bridge does not affect the feel
        of  the  strings  on  the  fingerboard,   it  may  affect  trem
        stiffness.
        
        Andy
        (26  years of playing/building/repairing/aligning solids, semis
        and acoustics.)
        
        

    There are two things I can think of that will effect string tension
    during bends:
    
    1) Scale length. The longer the scale, the tighter the strings.
    
    You an adjust this by tuning down or using a lighter guage.
    
    2) Bend displacement. The further you have to bend to get the desired
    note, the greater the string tension component is applied to your
    fingertip. This is caused by having extra string on either side of the
    bridge or nut.
    
    There isn't much you can do about this. The angle of the bridge might
    effect it by introducing more friction between the string and the
    saddle, causing less string to be pulled from the other side of the
    bridge during bends.
    
    							John.