Conference napalm::guitar

    At a weekly blues jam about two weeks ago, I got to play my Les Paul
    thru a Mesa Boogie 50 caliber.  I didn't get to study the EQ/gain
    settings, but my axe never sounded better....YOW!  If I could find that
    tone in my KH, I'd be ecstatic.  Very clean, bright, and sustained.  No
    feedback, or hiss...it was a most excellent experience, dude.  |)
    
    Steve D.

    That Larry Carlton creamy clicky picky tone -- I got it once in a
    shop playing a Washburn 335 copy through a Burman 50 watt (all valve)
    combo. 
    
    Do they still make Burman combos? Are they/were they U.K. only?
    
    Richard.

    LC is a Mesa/Boogie endorser.  It sounds like he actually uses them
    too.

    I just lovvvvvvvvvvve Stevie Ray Vaughn's tone!!
    
    Mike

	The tone that I've been trying to find for years (unsuccessfully)
	is the sound of an over-driven blackface Fender Super Reverb amp.
	This was a 40 watt, 4x10 @ 2 ohm combo amp which was highly prized
	by blues players. The distortion produced was very smooth and had
	a vocal quality to it which I haven't heard in any other amp.

	After a lengthy search, and not being able to find a 25 year-old
	amp, I settled instead for the Kitty Hawk M1,  which is capable
	of a much greater range of sounds, but it can't really re-create
	the sound of the Super Reverb. I chose the Kitty Hawk because it's
	distortion is the smoothest I've heard in any present-day amp, and
	is well suited to blues and *vintage* rock.

	If I ever run across an old blackface super, I'd probably buy it
	and sell off one of my M1's (somebody better check and make sure
	Boom didn't just have a stroke!! 8^) ).. but with each year that
	passes, the likelyhood of finding one just gets slimmer.

	Why doesn't Fender get on the re-issue bandwagon like Marshall,
	Boogie and many other guitar and amp companies???

	Steve

The tone I find myself looking for is somewhere between George Lynch
(Dokken, LynchMob) and James Hetfields (Metallica) rhythm.

The way George has his rig set up must be full of compressors because of
the way the tones (especially the natural harmonics) seem to EXPLODE
off of the fret board.  Ya know what I mean ?  Extreme INSANE gain and 
distortion.  A lot of amps don't distort enough for me...Especially
the vintage stuff.  To me the ideal distortion is warm and real fuzzy,
compressed as hell with insane singing sustain.  Seems like most of the older
stuff tends to get noizy (popping, hissing) the more it sustains.  Like they
can't hold the harmonics long enough.  My ADA does the job quite nicely, but
I'd like to see it get even more distortion than it does, without loss of the
tonal characteristics.

I also LOVE stereo rigs with some real subtle chorusing and delay-panning.
Again the ADA does it for me, but has no delay.  I really liked my SGE's
delays, but didn't care for the unit other than the delays.  I'm using a 
DSP128 now... with reversed reverb and 250ms of delay...and the ADA Chorus.
I think GK really turned me on to stereo processed sound.  Now I'm spoiled.

James Hetfield has the 'cleanest distorted' tone I've ever heard. I love that
dry crunch that he gets, but don't know how to recreate it.

I don't care to play clean unless I'm setting up to go to crunch.  I like 
power ballads that start with clean and jump into nasty-mode.

I have two clean patches and 9 distortion presets that I use on my ADA.
But only 1 that I use predominantly...It sounds like a cross between Lynch and
Hetfield.  Surprised ?

;)

BTW - I like it LOUD - ballz to the wall - Ask anyone who has heard me !

jc (Who sez if it's too loud, your too old :)

    One of my co-workers (who is read-only in here) is George Lynch's
    neighbor.  I'll see if I can get him to post his setup in here.
    
    Mike

    Re.  .3
    Larry Carlton's using Dumble amps these days, altho I'm sure Mesa
    will keep his name on the roster list. As we all know we can change
    our minds from day to day. Maybe tomorrow he'll go back to Mesa,
    or maybe something else. 
    
    Tone is hard to describe and it can change dramatic from amp to
    amp and place to place. Just when we think we have "the tone", someone
    will record something that'll grab us by the butt and say...  I
    want that tone instead.
    
    Some people are never satisfied...     including me.
    
    Fred

    -1
    
    Good ole George just recently changed his set-up.  In the past he was
    using Modified Marshall tops, but on the MOR tour, he was having real
    bad problems with the rig...I hear he's since gone to preamps and such
    (an MP-1 being one of them, forget what the other one was).  If you
    have your friend ask him, get the Under Lock and key setup...I know
    on Tooth and Nail he was briefly using Laney's, but got rid of them
    because they sounded too thin!  George is also known for "borrowing"
    Aspen Pitman's collection of plexiglass tops!
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Buck

    Mind you, it's not all gear. It might be stating the obvious, but
    it's easy to forget how much an individual tone relies on the way
    the stuff is played. Technique can do much to hide or exploit the
    natural sound of the guitar/amp. Beats me how you get a decent sound
    out of a Musicman combo, but people do.
    
    Richard.

Well, it would be real easy if I was just looking for one tone! The problem 
is, there are about a dozen tones that I want to get, and I want to try and 
get them all from one system (an impossibility, but that's part of the 
challenge!)  8^)

Some of my favorite tones:

Carlos Santana's on the 'Moonflower' album (infinite sustain!)
Eric Clapton's clean tone on 'Just One Night'
Mid-70s' crunch rhythm (heard on Foghat, Aerosmith, and Bad Co. albums...and 
                        more recently on the Georgia Satellites and BoDeans)
80's metal sound - George Lynch, Reb Beach
Les Paul/Marshall tone - ala Slash
Raunchy punk sound like the early Clash
Faces/Mick Taylor/Stones - best heard on "Can'tcha Hear Me Knockin'" and 
                           "Stay With Me"


And that's just a partial list.....

Alan S.

	First the re-issue bandwaggon. Fender's reissued the 4x10
	Tweed Bassman. Can't imagine what's next - vibrolux anyone?

	I know little about tone other that what I like (today).

	The tone Dave Stewart gets in Eurythmics "Would I lie to you?"
	The tone from REMs "End of the World as we know it"
	The tone from Sex Pistols "Anarchy in the UK"

	Then there's "Midnight Rambler"

	For clean tones I love the sound of Syd Barrett on Pink Floyd's
	"Piper on the Gates of Dawn" album.

    My favorites tone wise?
    
    Pete Townsend on "Won't Get Fooled Again"
    Jimi Hendrix on "Hey Joe" (listen for the rhythm in the background too)
    Jimi Hendrix on "Red House"
    Jimi Hendrix on the "Instrumental Solo" at the end of the Woodstock
    Album
    Jimi Hendrox on "Machine Gun" (the live version on "Band of Gypsies"
    Mark Knofler on "Brothers in Arms" (the song on that album)
    Mark Knofler on "Money for Nuthin" (How the hell did he do that??"
    I think it's Larry Carlton on "Kid Charlemagne" by Steely Dan
    Jeff Beck on "Cause We've Ended as Lovers"
    Eric Clapton on "Crossroads"
    Steve Morse on "On the Pipe" off of "The Introduction"
    Frank Zappa on "More Trouble Comin' Every Day" from "Roxy and
         Elsewhere"
    
    
    
    
    Gee, I don't know where to stop...
    
    
    Will

    re .5
    
    Fender IS on the reissue bandwagon (at least for some amps).
    
    I was down at Kurlan's at lunch and the Fender rep was in; 
    the brochure showed a 4X10 Bassman reissue listing at $949.
    
    -Dave

    re .15
    
    Yeah, what he said. 
    
    I've got one in particular that I'd like to pass along to you, seems
    this guy gets forgotten when talk mentions guitar players:
    
    Dan Toler from Greg Allman's band is not only one hell of a solid,
    tasty guitar player, but the sound he gets is, for me, the most
    appealing.
    
    But besides the pro's sound, and all of the people they have working
    around it, the record producers, the roadies, the sales force from
    every concievable manufacturer - there's us the playin public. We're
    on our own struggling with what we can afford balanced against what or
    how much we play. For me, I gortta say that my equipment does just fine
    I play a Strat (primary 6 string) through a Fender Super Six. It has
    100 watts thru 6 10"s. The combination of power and speaker mass pushes
    alot of air giving the amp a certain presence and definition without
    volume; you can feel it. Not something you can do with single speaker
    amps. It has a Master volume, but if you use it along with the channel
    volume for distortion, it really sounds sucky. So I have a Digitech
    "Programmable" distorion stomp box. I configure it along with a
    stereo chorus and a digital delay into one input of the amp and use an
    unprocessed signal from the delay into the other amp input. In this
    manner I can use the two volume controls to tune the balance between
    clean and processed. I like the sound so much that I no longer look at
    effects andamps when I'm at the music store.   
    
    Dave

    I think Andy Summers gets some of the greatest ambient tones in the
    biz. I think Angus Young has the nastiest tone in the biz. Eddie Van
    Halen has the kind of tone that demands your immediate attention.
    Eric Clapton has a real sweet tone.
    
    							John.

    As for rhythm guitar tone, I think Keith Richards got 'em all beat.
    
    Mike

    
    I'm with Buck; Ronnie and George all the way!  Also like Van Halen, 
    Joe Satriani(all his tones!), Queensryche(surprise, surprise!), and 
    etc...
    
    Greg says I have Lynch's tone, after that, I guess I do sound a little 
    like Under Lock and Key...  I can't seem to get his clean tone on 
    "It's Not Love", though.  Although, my set up sounds alot like the tone
    on Beast album; lots of distortion, and lots of reverb!
    
    Until I got my dsp128+, I wasn't completely happy with the distortion from
    the Boogie.  I could never seem to get enough, but with the Low-End
    Pass tweaked to about 8.5, I found myself backing off on the distortion
    a little bit( *ONLY* at 8! ;-)  )  
    
    As far as my ultimate tone, it's hard to decide; I like so many
    different other style players; David Gilmore, Stanley Jordan, and so 
    forth.  Well, I guess it's not THAT varied, but the tone of each player
    I listen to are!  As far as my preference for doing original tunes, 
    I guess I'll go with Ronnie LeTekro and George Lynch's ...
    
    Right now, I'm in the middle of loving the Flanger on the 128; I've had
    Chorus so long that I'm sorta sick of it...  And the original tunes 
    usually entails the Floyd set up.  Although I think I prefer the LP
    tone, I end up playing the Strat body style since they are so 
    much lighter and the home job Jackson is just as fast as my LP, PLUS
    it has a Floyd.  And with the EMG, I can almost fake the LP tone...
    
    J.

    I've been playing for a little over a year now but I'd have to say out
    of all the amps I've heard live, the Fender Twins (new and old) sound
    great.  My guitar instructor has an old Twin (late '60's or early
    '70's?) and it literally sings when he adds vibrato to the lead (it
    sounds like a female opera singer, actually).  


    The guitarist who's sound I really like (a condensed list): 

    Clapton  -- His solo on Phil Collins' "I wish it would rain", Layla
                and all his other songs (he's my guitar god)

    The Edge -- I really like the sound he gets on Sunday Bloody Sunday, 
    (of U2)     Pride(In the Name of Love) and Angle of Harlem

    Paul Asbell (of The Unknown Blues Band) 
       -- Probably not many have heard of him but if you get a chance, buy the 
          tape "The Unknown Blues Band - Live at Hunts."  He gets an
          incredible clean sound that that really sings when he does his
          solos.  

    Slash (G'nR fame) -- "Sweet Child O Mine" 

    Stevie Ray Vaughn -- His "Live Alive" sound


    Kevin. 

    
    I agree with .15. There are so many great sounding tones, depending on
    what you're playing. The list goes on and on. Two of my old favorites
    are the sound Brian S**** from the stray cats had in Stray Cat Strut,
    and the sound Brian Maye(sp?) from Queen had on the News of the World
    album. There's just too many to name.
    
    mIkEy Z.
    

    
    RE: .21
    
    Hey, Kevin!  Greg might be able to help you with Slash (Slush) sound!
    8) x1000   WhadyasayGreg?
    
    J.

    RE: .21
    
    Slash's tone on "Sweet Child" is easy...One finely aged Les Paul
    through a Wha Wha pedal into a Marshall...and be sure to use the
    Neck pickup on the Paul!
    
    RE: ? (CSC32::H_SO)
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard George Lynch used to use Rockman's
    for his clean tone and hot rodded Marshalls for his dirty tone.

Lynch's tone sounds like a GK on Under Lock And Key...I'm sure it's not, but it
sounds just like my GK with a couple of 4x12's...

Hmmm...

    Agreed - Lynch does have a very "Rockman" tone ...
    
    
    				Scary

Rockman = GK = Lynch ??

    Personally I never thought a GK sounded like a Rockman...
    
    I usually think of Lynchs distortion sound when I think of "his" sound. 
    I don't think his distortion sound sounds particularly like GKs 
    either.  Then again, if he played through a GK, I'm sure it would still
    sound like Lynch.
    
    For myself, there are several tones that I like (some of which I get to
    varying degrees).
    
    I always wanted to play with BB Kings tone and have never gotten it!  
    
    There's one of Satrianis sounds (a really shredded distortion) that I
    always liked that I've never been able to get.  
    
    The standard humbucker>Marshall tone (as used by folks like Slash and
    Mick Mars and more others then I can imagine) I've always liked (and
    occasionally get).
    
    George Lynch has a nice sound, but I've never consciously tried to get
    it myself.  Ronnie LeTekro has a great sound too.  His is hard to pin
    down.
    
    Most of the sounds I try to get and have trouble with are the "odd"
    distortion sounds, esp the heavily EQed ones and the ones that have an
    effect mixed in at a low level where it's not dominant enough to tell
    what it is really.
    
    Greg                                        

    How does Eddie Van Halen get his sound?
    
    Robin.

BIll Buckley posted in here somewhere that he used a variac to overdrive
the tubes in his marshalls to the point of melting... Sounds like
it too !

I guess a variac is similar to what Eyegore uses in Young Frankenstein to
"Crank up the juice".

jc

	I've been wanting to reply to this note for the past couple
    of days, but have been too busy to get around to it.

	Some of the tones I need:

	Carlos Santana on "Ain't got nobody, that I can depend on".

	Jerry Garcia's tone on the Europe 72 album when he was playing
	Strats.

	Lowell Georges' tone from most of the early 'Feat Albums. Paul
	Berreres' (sp) tone on the "Let it roll" album seems to be right 
	on the mark.

	Robert Cray's tone.

	The tone Mike Bloomfield used to play slide guitar on the Bob
	Dylan tune "Watch the river flow".

	The nasty distortion tone that George Thoroughgood used on most
	of his slide stuff.

	George Harrison's tone on tunes like "Devil's Radio", "While My
	my guitar gently weeps", "She's so Heavy" etc. I think the guitar
	solo on "While my guitar..." was actually done by Clapton.
	
	This is only a partial list. My biggest complaint is that I can
	get the tones I want *sometimes*. Other times I can't. I think 
	it is due to the inconsistant nature of tube amps, as well as
	my playing. I play either a Telecaster, or Gibson ES345 through
	a new Fender "The Twin". The two guitars are so differant, that
	they require differant amp settings. The minute I start twisting
	pots, tone is a moving target.

	Regarding an earlier reply, I believe the predominant guitar solo 
	on "Layla" was actually played by Duanne Allman, not Clapton. 
	Clapton has never done the tune live, because he freely admits it's 
	too hard to pull off. He would have to sing and solo simultaneously.
    
    
    	Mark Jacques
    

    	I've seen Clapton do "Layla" live,there's even a video of it...
    
    							

    Re.  .31 & .32
    
    
    I have the tape 'The Cream of Eric Clapton' and he (EC) does do the solo
    on the second half Layla.  The first half, while EC sings, another 
    guitarist is playing the lead.
    
    Kevin.

	Mark J. brought up an interesting side topic -

	I found that to consistently get tones that I could return to
	at a later date that I had to radically reduce the amount of
	gear in the signal chain. I'm at the point where a simple 2pu
	guitar and a dirt simple amp (2 channel, low, mid, high, reverb,
	presence) seem to be suitable.

	 - then I take it into another room!

	anybody got pointers on how to apply a little science here?

    $ edit desired patch
    $ name desired patch
    $ save desired patch
    $DONE:
    
    
    For reliability of tones, ya gotta go midi.  Preferably with a system
    with no knobs to get bumped during moving, set up, reaching for beer,
    etc.
    
    
    				Scary
    
    			   (MIDI Bluesman)

    -1
    
    My point exactly...
    
    Recently, I was having a discussion with another guitarist (Rob Ketch
    from Mr. C's in Marlboro) about the concept of "less is more".  He
    plugged a les paul into a white 1982 Marshall head and we both agreed
    it was a great tone, pure and simple!  We have both gone the spectrum
    of equipment changes...from plugging right into an amp, to a rack of
    effects.  Interestingly enough, we have both come full circle, and are
    again taking a 'stripped down' approach to playing.  Mind you, you have
    to re-work your technique a bit when you go from playing with FX to    
    playing thru a DRY Marshall, but never have I been so happy with *my*
    tone!  It cuts thru much better, and I feel that I'm playing with much
    more feeling now that the notes aren't hidden behind a wall of FX.  I am
    once again learning how to phrase how a note sounds.
    
    food for thought.

    Something I had to learn when I bought the GP-8, is that just because
    the effect level of a given effect goes to 100%, doesn't necessarily mean 
    it sounds good that way.  Right now I use the GP-8 with a KittyHawk M3,
    and I only use a touch of chorus, touch of delay, and that's it.  It's
    easy to get caught up in the multi-effects rat race, but you do learn.  
    You can't phrase with a heavily processed signal - there's nothing
    there to work with.
    
    For sound checks I usually just use the KittyHawk with no rack - and
    it's tempting sometimes just to leave the GP-8 at the house ...
    
    
    
    				Scary

    re a couple back
     You have to be kidding, keeping a MIDI setup so you don't have to
    worry about hitting a knob. Perhaps I misconstrued your note.
    
    I have tried a few effects processors and find them virtually useless
    for playing classical guitar on the steel string electric through.
    
    It may be because of the settings, but there is too much time lag
    between when I hit a note and it comes out. In fast passages it is not
    unusuall to be several note ahead of the thing and it sounds like MUSH.
    I always have found myself having to slow down so much I can't stand
    the things.
    
    Although I tried an old analog flanger once, it sounded better than the
    Digital ones, sweeter, I regret not grabbing it.
    
    

    Thanks guys!  You just saved some of us a lot of $$$! ;-)

      Agreed - a ton of FX won't make up for a sh*tty sounding amp.
    And I know how I've stated my preference for my rack gear, that
    still holds true. But , like Scary, I don't use many patches
    that are heavily processed. I've considered dumping my SGE for a
    DR-X mainly because it's got what I use in the SGE and it's 
    an upgraded unit. A little chorus and delay here and there are
    my mainstays, but the main reason for my rack is the versatility
    on switching channels (KH preamps) and the inline tuner (DT-1 pro).
    If you run into a problem you can patch around it. Finally it
    looks great and if I want to upgrade I don't necessarily have to
    get rid of everything in the rack.
      So in part I do agree with Buck, less can be more. I can have
    a blast getting sounds out of just my Les Paul and KH combo(s).
    						-BoOm-

       Tone is just not only for Guitars! As a minority, there is plenty
    of sounds from bass...
    
       Out of necessity, I have to keep things stripped down. There are so
    many sounds you could get out of your bass without changing your tone
    or volume. I have only scratched the surface of this iceberg.
       One tone of the many that I like, is the sound that Jeff Berlin gets 
    on his Gradually Going Tornado album- It's that Farty Jazz bass sound.
    One tone I almost ilke is Ham Stew's... Stu Hamm's bass sound whilst 
    tapping- for me he's very clear(you can even hear the fret buzz) but
    it seems to be missing something.
       Another fun one is Stanley Clark's Lopsy Lu- It's a slightly dead
    souding elembec tone- a little bit plunky.
    
    
    Let's hear it from you odder Bass Players!
    
    John

     I've been trying to duplicate the sound the bass player from
    living color gets on "desperate people". Kind of buzzy sounding
    or maybe fretless with epoxy on the board.....I can almost get
    it but it just doesn't jump out at you like his sound.I also
    like playing witha boost @60hz 250hz and 2khz with 800 cut down
    a bit but it really makes your amp work!!!!!!You can hear the 
    speakers breath and it's real punchy.
    -Bill

    When I think of a singing guitar, I generally think of a Les
    Paul or a Strat through a Boogie.
    
    An area that we are totally ignoring is the the tone of Archtop
    jazz guitars. An archtop jazz guitar, with the right settings
    can sing a baby to sleep. And it can sing rhythm just as well
    as lead. I have tried to duplicate this sound with my ES345,
    but a semi just can't do it. Danny Weber's Archtop note #1016
    has had me foaming at the mouth for the last several months.
    There is not way I am going to shake archtop-itus, unless I
    go out and buy one.
    
    Mark Jacques
    

    What I look for in a lead tone:
    
    	o That "singing" quality which is a function largely (but not
    	  completely) of sustain.  Larry Carlton is probably the
    	  finest example (I'd also mention Eric Johnson).
    
    	o I like that sustain to happen without buzziness or clipping.
    	  This is why I have never had any desire to own a Marshall
    	  even though I like the sound when others use it.  Marshall's
    	  are very buzzy.  I think too much of the sound comes from
    	  clipping instead of "gain" and the harmonics.
    
    	  Marshalls sound to me like "the perfect distortion pedal"
    	  but I just ain't into distortion.
    
    	o Something that RESPONDS to your playing.  It doesn't overly
    	  compress the signal (like Marshalls - ahem), and variation
    	  in playing causes the amp to give you a different tone.
    
    	  I can get an almost clean sounding tone from my Boogie with
    	  all the controls on 11 just by changing my pick attack.
    	  (That's a slight exageration, but the Boogies are IMHO truly
    	  amazing in that way.)
    
    For a clean tone, basically I want something very smooth.  In
    particular I want to be able to play unusual voicings without
    causing the amp to go muddy.
    
    For me, this has always meant Boogie.  There's a lot of amps I've
    tried that aspire to that, and there's a lot of amps I'd LIKE to try
    that (from what I read) might give me what I'm looking for.
    
    But the only amp I've tried that really DOES it is Boogie.  I am not
    a brand loyalist.  I'd dump my Boogie in a second for something I
    liked better, I just haven't found it yet.
    
    	db
    	  

    -1
    
    Exactly!
    
    Someone in here had previously mentioned George Thorogood's (SP?) tone,
    which when I saw him was comprised of an ES-125 cranked through a
    Fender black-face.  Also, Izzy Stradlin of Guns and Roses plays
    ES-125 and ES-175's through Boogie Mark-IIIs and gets a wild, raunchy
    tone.
    
    There was a time when Ted Nugent had a Byrdland/Fender love affair
    that *really* sang!!!  His control of feedback always amazed me!

    I have a Guild x-500 archtop with an Artist Award neck , 
    It sounds much better to my ears with all the electrics out
    ( de-boweled of 2 hums, 5 knobs, 1 switch.
    Looks areal wierd, though.
    
    Tone production is why I don't use a pick all that much,
    it's why I use the segovia technique, although I haveto admit
    like anyone who uses it, modifications must be made for individual
    anatomies. I use my nails shorter than described by Bobri, the nail
    attachment I have is much shorter.
    
    It's that thick knockuout tone, unless you can generate a thick sound
    from the instrument you can forget it.
    

Wanna keep that tone from room to room ??

Get yourself a MIDI EQ wwith memory.  Use the EQ to "shape" the room your in
and store it for the next time your back there playing...
I used to do that (use an EQ), but found it a lot of trouble, now I just
put up with the subtle differences from to room...Besides I use a heavily
saturated distortion tone thats compressed like crazy, so it doesn't
seem to effect me as much.

RE: FX

You are all right.  Subtle FX are the way to go... a little chorus, a 
little delay...  Anyone who owns an FX pedal will get tired of it eventually.
Less is more, but you don't have to hide behind it either.

jc

One sound I was looking for and found is the sound of my quattro in clean and
crunch modes...awesome!

Now if I could find a way to sound like Jeff Beck in the distorted mode....

dbii

    Yo, db_II...
    
    Isn't the HOT LEAD mode just killer?  I love that one!

Hot lead is nice but could use more high end or something...

I still like the quattro..


dbii

    re .44
    
    Maybe you just haven't played the right Marshalls.  Agreed that a wide
    open Marshall, especially one with channel switching, is buzzy.  But
    believe it or not, you don't have to play a Marshall wide open (oh no!
    blasphemy!)  There's a thing that happens on a straight, no frills, 4 input
    Marshall, not too far past the midpoint on the volume knob where the amp
    just sings.  Sustain, articulation, pure liquid fire.  It's the epitomy
    of what Eric Johnson calls the "100 lb. violin tone", and Marshall is
    the ONLY amp I know that does it just right.  (Nope, not Boogie, or
    Kitty, ar anyone else).
    
    /rick

    Just a comment.  One reason people may be having trouble getting and
    maintaining certain tones is that they want too much.  Carlos Santana
    doesn't go around trying to get a Knopfler or a Beck tone out of
    his setup; he's concerned about his own.  Same with everybody else
    mentioned so far in this topic; they all have at most too or three
    basic sounds that they use, and that's it.  And these guys are pros.
    They often spend years working on and perfecting a tone, trying
    and discarding equipment until they hit a magic combination.  And
    interestingly enough, a couple of tones is all they seem to need.
    
    Whoever made the comment about having to start over every time the
    knobs get moved really struck home with me.  It's hard work to get
    even one or two killer tones; and if it's real killer tones you want,
    I think you have to live with that.
    
    /rick
    

    You're absolutely right, Rick!

    I've been thinking about this for awhile now and what I notice is that
    the people most of us are trying to emulate don't use a wide range of
    tones themselves, but most of us want to get several of these peoples
    awesome tones down pat.  

    I think that's the problem you run into trying to play covers (I do).  
    Seems to me that if you play original music you therefore have the
    freedom to put in whatever tone *you* like and want to play with rather
    then having to be frustrated trying to emulate the tones that other
    people chose to put into their music.

    Greg (who would love it if he had "his own sound" and could use it
    virtually all the time)

    Rick , nobody with a 100W Marshall plays it at 10, only the wannabees
    and the kooks on transistors.
    All us Real Men do is complain it's too loud.
    I bought my MLV because it has the fewest components. Less circuitry,
    and more Current shooting thru the wire. I'd like to build one with 2
    tubes 2 volumes knobs 2 transformers, discrete analogs throughout.
    Does anyone know where I could get a circuit book with this?
    
    

    In the old days, before MVs,m lotsa people played their Marshalls
    at "10".  In fact, a few people still do (Steve STevens is one of
    them!)
    
    B., who loves a wide open 50wt Marshall!

    
    I must be getting old already.  It used to be that I could not get 
    enough treble nor gain 6 months ago.  Now, I find myself backing off 
    on both.  My gain has been backed off to 7(used to be parked at 10)
    and all my guitar's tone knobs are only open half way.
    
    Most of the time, I play with my master vol set at 2 and lead volume 
    set at 4.  When playing with gain, I prefer to open my guitar vol knob
    all the way, but when playing clean, I back that off to about 6 or 7.
    I even find myself soloing in "crunch rhythm mode", oh, no!  Somebody 
    slap some sense into me! ;-)
    
    Before I got into a band situation, I used to play with extreme bass
    and treble, but now, I find that when I boost too much bass and treble 
    on the EQ, I'm infringing into drums and bass territory.  IMO, everyone 
    in the band should have headroom and not have to fight to be noticed.
    During the singing part, I'm playing with EQ set to defeat the mids;
    I believe this is the singer's territory, but during leads, I turn the
    EQ off, this gives me increase in mids and volume.  So far this seems
    to work pretty well.
    
    As far as my 128+ goes, I use only 2 or 3 settings and I have them
    "moved" close together for easier access with FS300 footswitch.  I 
    rarely change from one program to another during a song.  I try to keep
    things simple and this works for me.
    
    J.

    Re -2 
    Yea, at 10, people like Pete (Huh?) Townsend  
    and Jimi ( Make that a Double, no a triple ) Hendrix!
    
    :-) and soon to be Stevie Stevens, funny you should mention him,
    got a copy of Marshall Law admag from Marshall, seems he sent back
    his Mark 1 head for DeModification!

Flexability was the reason I bought the Rivera. I can get most any sound if
I tweeze the knobs long enough. Better stage flexability is why I got a 
Quattro, the rivera sets up for two sounds and that's about all you can
manage while on stage, the quattro sets up another 4, so I get at least
6 between 'em, closer to 8 as I use the Rivera to boost or not boost the
quattro (so I get at least some different gain levels). I think the quattro
has 2 killer tones and the other two are above average, the rivera sounds 
are good but honestly these days, less utilized,

dbii

    
    
    A friend recently let me listen to a Leslie West album entitled "Theme"
    somethingorother.  Besides the fact that the album was completely
    forgetable, I couldn't help but think that Leslie's tone has really
    slippped.  He now sounds like x number of other guys.   I used to
    really like his guitar sound.
    
    For reference, I pulled out Nantucket Sleighride from the live album
    and gave it a spin. I still like the tone that he had going on that
    album.  Les Paul junior (I think) through a Stramp? amp.  All of his
    tone changes sound like they were done only with guitar volume.
    
    In retrospect, the playing wasn't anything spectacular, but I still
    like the sound of those fills.  Wicked harmonic in there, too.
    
    Kevin  
    
    
                                                    

    Speaking of toneless...
    
    I'm on a Tone Quest.  Unhappily searching for the tones I need. 
    Drearily going through tons of equipment and even more money and still
    not being happy with the results.
    
    I generally play rock & roll, so there are really just a few basic
    sounds I want:
    
    1) warm clean with chorus
    2) Crunchy rhythm sound (a-la Marshall)
    2a) same crunch with more bite
    3) Smooth singing lead sound, mega gain with a nice smooth character
    3a) same singing sound, but with a hair more bite
    
    Now I've found amps and effects that will give me all the above, but
    I'm having trouble finding the combination that will let me switch
    around in them easily.
    
    My MP-1 will give me 1, 3 and 3a however, when it comes to crunch, it's
    OUT.  It's very flexable in setup and easy of tone change though.  
    
    I can get crunch from my Chandler Tube Driver, but it doesn't seem to
    sing (if only that "Boost" switch would give a little more boost...). 
    
    The Kitty Hawk M3 is kind of the same, great clean sound, good
    distorted rhythm sound (could use a little more crunch though), but no
    lead sound.
    
    I've heard a couple of stomp boxes that had decent lead sounds, but
    nothing else.  This is where the ease of access becomes a problem
    because if I'm using my amp in a chrunch rhythm mode and I want to use
    a stomp box to get a singing lead sound, I have to step on the stomp
    box to turn it on and on the channel switch for the amp to go to it's
    clean channel.  That's a hassle, I'm not that coordinated.
    
    The only possible solution I can think of is to go with multiple
    preamps into a line level mixer out to a power amp, then use an A/B
    switch to select the preamp I want to use.
    
    The other potential solution I thought of was to find an amp that would
    do the clean and crunch sounds really well and get/make some sort of
    switching system so I could step on one switch and change my signal
    path from straight into the amp with the crunch channel enabled to
    going through some effects units while enabling the clean channel.  
    
    Help me with my Quest, friends!  I need advice, I need assistance, I
    need a firmer grip on reality.  You can make a difference, please
    help with your thoughts on the matter.
    
    Greg (Charter Member of the Brotherhood of Tone)
                  

    Maybe I just don't understand what Crunch is...
    
    My Mp1 seems to "crunch" pretty good to me...  I think where it lacks
    is in the "Beefy, slightly distorted classic rock" sound.  Is that 
    what crunch is ?
    
    Greg, I hate to say this, but I think you need to dump all your gear
    and get a damn Marshall.  You don't seem to care for the hassles of 
    MIDI, of programming your presets or living with the short comings.
    I think your a prime candidate for a 50wt JCM800 Model 2205.
    
    It's got two channels, EQ on both, and that "Crunch"...At least what I 
    call crunch.
    
    BTW - I call crunch mode something that you'd hear at a metallica
    concert.  I mean Jamez's tone is CRUNCH !  But maybe my opinion is
    all wet, because the Quattro's "crunch" mode is more "vintage" sounding
    than what I'd call "crunch".
    
    So, WTF is crunch ?  Is it Metallica or is it Bad Company ?
    
    See, I've been working on a lot of Bad Company covers as of late, and
    have a hard time with my Mp1 getting it to sound like an "old amp with
    a lame distortion box".  My Mp1 presets all seem a bit buzzy for that
    "old amp-lame distortion box" sound... Or in other words, that
    "vintage" Bad Company tone.
    
    Now, Steve Dandrea was the MASTER of that "vintage" tone IMHO.  He used
    his Kitty Hawk M3, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and a cheap old fashioned
    DOD analog delay (that I sold him for $30 or something ;).  I'm pretty
    sure he used the clean channel on the M3 exclusively.  He had a LP
    Deluxe just like mine.  He had that "vintage" tone.  Good thing too,
    because I was on the other side of the stage buzzin' like a chain saw
    hitting a spiked tree.  ;)  Interesting combination.
    
    ;)
      

    If you insist on keeping all your present gear, you could always
    opt to control it all with something like the Scholz "Octopus"
    or any of the other "midi patch bays" on the market. The Octopus
    has several loops and control outputs. It allows you to connect
    all your equipment in, and you can determine what is happening
    in each patch. Everything is contolled by the footswitch. I'm 
    not saying this will make life easy, but it will make it possible
    to switch from one fairly complex setting, to another fairly
    complex setting by hitting one switch. You can also get all your
    stomp boxes off the floor and put them on a rack shelf.
    
    It's not my cup of tea, but it may be yours !!
    
    Mark
    

    GET A MARSHALL!
    
    or a Kitty Hawk M1 ;-)

    				GET A MARSHALL!!!

    He's got a kitty.  He needs a Marshall, and thats what he wants to
    hear, so humor the boy will ya ??
    
    ;)

>    He's got a kitty.  He needs a Marshall, and thats what he wants to
    
    He doesn't have a nice healthy M1! ;-)

    
    I dunno, it's tough when your gear isn't making the sounds you would
    like.   
    
    But, maybe it's not the gear, but in your ears!  I know that
    sometimes I just need some time away from it to get a new perspective. 
    You know, put the electric in the case and play the acoustic for a week.
    Listen to some music you haven't heard before, or pull out old tapes
    and give 'em a whirl.
    
    When you pull the electric back out, it's easier to be objective about
    your sound.  Then, if you still want that new toy, go to it.
    
    
    Personally, I've had my "cooling off" period, and I'd still buy the
    Marshall 900 hi-gain dual reverb 50-watter in a heart beat if I had
    the $$.  MP-1s are looking pretty good, too. 
    
    
    Kevin
    
    
    
    
    
      

       If you're getting the sound you like with the stomp box and amp
       and your only objection is that you don't want to have to kick
       two switches to go into lead mode, how about modifying your box
       to do the channel switch for you too?  I don't know what you've
       got, but maybe you can replace the stomp switch in the box with
       something that's got an extra set of poles you could wire out to
       your channel select jack...

       

    I gotta agree with Kevin.   
    
    Mp1's are looking KILLER in my mind...   ;)
    (Gawd, what a snot!)
    
    I just got my software upgrade.  Comes with 69 new presets.
    I went thru all of them, and I'm callin' Greg with:
    
    (2) Crunchie (read vintage) presets
    (2) Clean presets
    (2) Metal presets
    
    AND... One of the BEST Marshall presets I've EVER heard... Not like
    with v1.0 when they said "Marshall".  This one is called HOT RODDED
    50wt Half Stack, and it's UNREAL !
    
    I hope that he'll take these presets, put them in and dicker around
    with them.
    
    Also, the upgrade makes the Mp1 completely MIDI compatable so I can
    hook it up to our new PC and dicker with the MIDI librarian software
    packages and sequencers...
    
    Greg, you GOTTA hear this marshall preset.
    
    Also included a couple to use with your strat.  JC is right proud to 
    share his new Strat secret that makes his strat sound like a noisey 
    Ibanez.  
    
    jc

    I went through all of this before I owned my kitty preamps. I can
    actually see myself using a kitty preamp a reverb of some sort and a
    power amp. No midi, not fancy extras and all in a 3-4 space rack. The 4
    presets I get out of a quattro or testerossa are more than enough.
    
    If I had the $$$ I'd buy one of those quattros that whoever found out
    west!!!
    
    dbii

Get a Boogie Mark IV, a DSP 128+, a Midi patch controller to driver them both
and you've got it.  


...for at least a week  ;^)

Will

re: dbii

> I can actually see myself using a kitty preamp a reverb of some sort and a
> power amp. 

That's my *exact* setup! Guitar to Quattro to reverb (via GEP-50) to QSC power 
amp. Its more than versatile enough for everything I need!

(Let's not forget that by adjusting volume and tone controls on the guitar, I 
can create lots of different tones without changing anything else...)

alan

    
    
    
    	I'm fooling around with this Gibson Les Paul and I'm getting really
    thin tone from the neck pickup (almost like it's running on one coil)
    and regular (fat) humbucking tone from the Bridge pickup.  I ohm them
    both out and they both have the same impedance (about 17k)... and the
    signal path through the switch and pots look OK... What's next tone
    gurus???   Can a pickup be defective and still have it's dc impedance
    in spec???  Halp!!!

    
    The pickups are not going to sound the same because of the placement,
    which is the whole reason for multiple pickups.  Think about it...
    
    							Brian

    Well, yeah but the neck pickup in a LesPaul should be thicker than
    flies on sh*t!
    
    jc (Who's LP's neck PU is too thick for his tastes)

    
    
    
    	Yeah, I hear ya Rostie, but I'm not explaining the tone well
    enough.. wicked thiiiiiiiin... like if I wired to strat pickups out of
    phase they'd sound pretty wide compared to what I'm getting.  An
    obvious defect, but I can't figure out where... every other time I've
    suspected a pickup, I've noticed a drop in impedance (or an open
    circuit)... I'm going to flip flop the wiring tonight and see if the
    problem follows the pickup around or if it follows the output path
    around.  THEN, I'll move forward on this beast.. sheesh.. wish I knew
    what I was doing..  Hey how about a bad tone bleed cap??? Draining all
    the tone to ground... heheh..
    
    
    Gree Vee

     Well, Gree Vee, heheh..., you could easyli solve this. Are you quick
     with a solder iron? If so, just remove the bridge pickup wires from
     the place it's connected, and connect the wires from the neck pickup
     instead. In this way, you check the signal path right from the pick-
     up to the output jack!

     Did it have the problem all the time? Or did it develop slowly? How
     is the distance from strings to the adjustable screws, on each pick-
     up? How far are the screws turned up?

     Sure there's something wrong with your axe! On my LP goldtop, the
     best way to describe the sound of the neck pickup is **fat**...

     Good luck,

     Poul

    
    
    	Thanks, Poul, that's exactly what I plan to do tonight, along with
    wrapping some xmas presents (hee hee, the thing I love most next to
    buying me presents!) and if the problem follows the pickup, I yank it,
    if it doesn't I find out what's wrong with my signal!  How come you
    guys keep saying ***fat***?  Coop, have you been showing that photo
    album around again??  -{;^)  <-- Greevee King with Alfalfa hairdo
     
    
    Gree Vee

	I'm just being nosey here, but my old les paul was fat as hell.

This is brainstorming.......(ie. no intellegence or experience assumed!)

1.Is the pickup forming a good physical fit to the body ?

2. Is it possible for the dual coils inside to be connected out of phase ( I 
thought they were anyway=humbucking ) would this cause tone cancellation?

3.Is the pickup switch wired so that the bridge pickup connection is in fact 
both pickups connected out of phase ? tap them both to see if this is so

4. If it ain't the coil, then could it be the pole pieces? test with 
screwdriver the relative "pull" strength of both pickups or place a piece of 
paper over the  pickups and sprinkle iron filings on both to test 
field strength (remember that from school ?)

5. Is the hook up wire OK ....high resistance..bad solder joint?

6. Is the switch OK ....high resistance ?

7. The capacitor, if faulty, could go....

a. open circuit = no tone control, pickup sounding OK

b. short circuit = not likely, but=loss of volume depending on tone position.

c. change value = higher value = tone roll of at lower frequency
	        = lower value  = --------------- higher --------

So, no, I don't think this is it.  

8. The guy who wound it was the seventh son of a seventh son....

I think the questions asked in -.1 would help pin it down...

I guess I would try putting the bridge pickup in its place to test the pickup,
then take it from there.......re -.1

You got my juices going.....share what it turns out to be so I can kick 
myself!!

Dave

	I just went thru a similar experiance with my bridge pickup 
	(dimarzio) - It never had a metal cover over the windings.
	It sounded very thin & the volume control cut out when I tried
	to mix the neck & the bridge pickup together to get a tolerable
	tone. I took the pickup out & found one winding to be a 6K ohms
	but the other at 1K ohms. I swapped the pickup out with an EMG
	Select that I had. This fixed the problem (It's not as hot a sound
	as before, but the tone is greatly improved). I must have jabbed it
	with my pick & shorted out a few windings.

							Jens

    
    
    
    
    	I got it!!!  It turned out to be the wired from the vol pot to the
    switch.  It had continuity, but when I re-melted each solder join (my
    last ditch effort) things went back to normal...  The problem stayed
    with the signal path last night, so I knew right away it wasn't the
    pick-ups... must have been a cold solder joint, but I'm still baffled,
    It's usually MY solder joints that are the problem... not the factory
    joints.. oh, well, anyway, it's fixed... nasty problem, I can do
    without any more of those!!
    
    
    
    	Yo, doooods, guess what???
    
    
    
    	I got fret wire! I got fret wire!!
    
    Gree Vee [;^)

    Oh, HAIL...brothers of tone...
    
    last night for band rehersal I played my git plugged straight into a
    $40 bass amp!!  What can I say??  It cut through like a razor, but 
    boy did I have to PLAY for that sustain!!
    
    I kinda like it...

    
    
    
    	Sounds like a "back to the roots" experience, Bill!  Didn't
    Marshall start out with a 40 dollar bass amp???  [;^)

    $40 bass amp?  Get real!
    
    What kind was it?

    >What kind was it?
    
    It was a Marlboro 60 SS bass amp.  Well, it says "bass amp" on it, and
    it has 1x15 in it, but it has three inputs...bass, guitar, keyboard. 
    The bass input has a bass boost, the guitar a treble boost, and I think
    the keyboard input is flat eq-wise.  When you plug into the guitar one
    and crank up thge volume, it clips, in this odd fuzz tone.
    
    A novelty fer sure
    

     -P.U.!!!!!!!!! MArlboro= the hondo of amps to say the least!!
    even worse. But I found that a lot of friends of mine LOVE the 
    tone you get playing Guitar thru a bass amp.....preferably thru
    an Mxr distortion......sounds good especially for da blues-
    greve_unit ought to feel good about that!
    -Bill
    

    Well, I played a Strat through a reissue Bassman, and I haven't heard a
    clean tone ANYWHERE that can touch it !  True blues ...
    
    Scary

    
    
    	Absolutely, fellers... I don't play a lot of 6 string through my
    bassman because the gauss I have it hooked up to doesn't cooperate at
    all in the mid to higher freqs, but with a single 12 with an open
    back.. look out.. love it...
    
    
    Gree Vee

    Whatever happened to The Brotherhood of Tone?

    re -.1: Still out here in the great audio landscape, looking for the 
            ultimate tone.  Next path is closed-back Thiele 12in cabinet,
            for a very slight increase in roundness, fatness, warmth,
            whatever.

    Speaking only for myself, I am still a member (founding?) of the
    Brotherhood.  I have completed my personal ToneQuest and have devoted
    myself to spreading the good news of Marshall.
    
    Greg

    re:  .89
    
    Big strings and high action?
    
    Yep, you got it!

    Glh,
    
    I started the base note, does that mean I am a founder of The
    Brotherhood of Tone?!?  
    
    Hail, Hail, ToneBrother!
    
    
    Buck, also a Marshall Touting ToneBro

IMHO, The ToneQuest is NEVER, EVER complete...

jc (Who is reminded that everytime he plugs into something new)

    re: Blh
    
>    I started the base note, does that mean I am a founder of The
>    Brotherhood of Tone?!?  
 
    If I recall, I coined the phrase.  I would certainly consider you an
    original member!
    
    glh 

    I've been thinking of putting 10's on my Ibanez RG550.  Anyway else do
    this to that model?  (Buck? Coop?)  How did you like the results?
    
    Mike

    Hi Mike,..
    
    	I play .010's now (after a short and unhappy stint with .011's)
    You may need to tweak the tremolo springs a bit tighter (presuming
    you're using less than .010's now) to handle the .010's,.. but thats
    about it.
    
    	FWIW,.. my RG570 needed a setup pretty bad after a few weeks of
    having the .011's on there. I guess I could have stayed with the
    .011's and had the dood set the thing up with those,.. but the
    combination of my fingers complaining that the .011s were too hard to
    bend well,... and wondering why the (very skinnny) neck seemed to be
    moving on me under these new string/spring tensions, I decided to
    fall back to .010's
    
    	As a student of his, I happen to know that Herr Buckmeister uses
    .095s on his (Rg570?), unmodified.
    
    								/Bill
    

    I really like the .0095's on my RG550.  .010's def. SOUND better,
    but I don't have the time to work my chops into the heavier gauge 
    string, so, for me, the choice is obvious.

    I recently changed to .010s on my Les Paul and will start using them on
    my Ibanez 560 real soon.  The only reason I haven't so far is that I
    didn't have time to redo the setup for the new string tension.  That
    always seems to take me a couple of hours...  
    
    Steve Jensen has been using .010s on his 750 for several months now and
    loves 'em.  He said all he had to do was compensate the trem springs
    for the increased string tension.  His neck was too flat already, so
    the increased tension actually helped it there (ie the truss rod was
    loose and he couldn't get enough relief before).

    On the Les Paul, the .009s were like slinky's, just too wimpy.  The
    .010s improved both the tone and the feel (for me).  Took me a couple
    of weeks of playing it to get used to 'em though.  It actually took
    less time then I expected to aclimate.  Now that I've been playing it
    that way for a couple of months, the .010s are even starting to feel
    light on the Les Paul now, I might  even try some .011s on it.  
    
    I like to do lots of string bending, so I don't think I want to get
    strings too heavy on there.  I don't play enough these days to keep my
    hand strength up enough for the barb wires some people use.

    Greg
                                                               

    Good choice Greg, I've mostly used .010's on my LP after experimenting
    with .009 to .011....seems to be the best trade-off between "fatness in
    tone" (which I like) and ease of bending......My taste in music besides
    blues/rock oriented leads, includes alot of chord/rythm playing, and with my
    "heavy handed" style, I used to pull .009's "out of tune" while playing
    certain chord voicings up on the neck....."pretty" chords are alot
    nicer with the fatter strings as well.....
    
    FWIW,
    
    Steve

>    strings too heavy on there.  I don't play enough these days to keep my
>    hand strength up enough for the barb wires some people use.

    re: Steve
    
>    I used to pull .009's "out of tune" while playing certain chord
>    voicings up on the neck....
    
    Exactly the problem I was having.  It never seemed quite as bad on the
    Strat scale length guitars I've been playing for several years, perhaps
    due to the higher string tension from the longer scale.  Plus, I'm
    playing differently lately as well (a lot harder).
    
    re: Mike
    
    You got it mon!  Newborns are a major time sink!
    
    Greg

    
    Jeez, a whole topic dedicated to me, thanks guys 8^)
    
    -Tony

	Amen to .010s and high action! Using D'Addario XLS Stainless
	and the tone is heaven - especially Fender Clean with a kiss
	of reverb.

Wimps.  :-)

I use Dean Markley .011s and (relatively) high action these days, on both the
Gibson and the Strat.  'Course, I switch off between those and an acoustic, 
and using the stiffer electric strings makes it a smoother transition between
the two types.  I do bend a fair amount, use a lot of left-hand tremelo, no
whammy bars, and play mostly blues and "classic rock" (hate that term).

One bummer about the heavy strings is the wound 3rd string.  Still getting
used to that.  I've tried nearly-as-large plain steel strings as replacements
but they tend to break a lot for some reason.  Oh well, I'll learn...

-- Sam

    I guess none of you want to try my '46 Epi Emperor, currently
    strung 13, 17, 24, 34, 44, 58. I can bend the third about 1/4 tone, but
    it sure sounds good :-)
    
    Danny W.

Some of you are saying "simple is best", but how many of those same people
*drool* over the tone of someone like Steve Vai, who uses MONDO racks of
effects??? Sure, the totally processes sound isn't for some, but its right
for others. 

alan
_who_likes_it_simple_personally_but_can_appreciate_technology_too_

    I *hate* Vai's post-refrigerator sound!!  I liked it back when he was 
    Charvel--Marshall (or Charvel--Carvin)...it rocked.  Now it's a wash.
    
    Bah!

    
      Rack, Stack, combo?
    
      I am capable of all - just ask Buck! When he was over to my house he
    spent more time on the M1 and the REXX, like I'm surprised. And I
    spent my playing time in the rack. 
      FWIW - The ACCESS uses the Intellifex processing in a parallel loop, 
    Trust me, the original signal remains intact! That was one of my
    reasons for going with the ACCESS.  
    
      The worst thing that ever happened to my guitar sound was the SGE
    being inserted between my preamp and power amp. The GSP-21 was better,
    but not by a lot. I just say NO to guitar multieffect gizmos. (And the 
    Rocktron Intellifex is not one of THOSE). 
    
      							-B()()M-

    re: Alan
    
    Speaking only for myself, you have *never* heard me drool over Vai's
    *tone*.  What you *have* heard me drool over are his CHOPS!  The guy is
    a phenominal player, he should lose the harmonizers, he doesn't need
    'em. 
    
    He's got an ok sound, but the basis of it is still a good tube amp. 
    His best sounds have been when the rest of the stuff was turned off,
    like on "For The Love Of God" on Passion & Warfare.  Screaming sound,
    straight into a Marshall stack, according to him (from interviews).  I
    liked his older sound much better, like on "Flex-able".  Straight up. 
    Listen to that one and compare it to his work on the last Whitesnake
    album, where his incredible playing is lost in the mix most of the
    time.
    
    In fact, you've probably heard me say several times that I never liked
    the sound of Boston, I think it's a very tired sound.  Megaprocessed.
    If I wanted a sound like that, I would play keyboards instead of
    guitar, they do it better.
    
    I was watching Paul Gilbert's first instructional video a couple of
    weeks ago (for the first time).  And all the way through it I was
    thinking what a nasty tone he was using.  All honk-ey, like a goose
    sort of, with a giant wash of reverb over it.  His chops were amazing,
    his tone sucked.  Then toward the end, he backs up and points at a rack
    full of Mp-1's and digital signal processors.  Blecko!  No wonder!
    
    Notice that he's since dumped 'em and gone back to using cool hot
    rodded tube amps (Metaltronix, and more recently Ampeg's by Lee
    Jackson).  Interesting?
    
    Greg
         

>      The worst thing that ever happened to my guitar sound was the SGE

Amen to that oh bro of tone !

The DSP and Quad dont' seem to tromp my signal (my HUSH does, but I need 
that).

It's wierd...  Add a multiFX box, and preamp, and you need a noize gate,
then you need an aural exciter to get back your high (and on and on...).
Whot a business!

jc

Well, for whats worth, I've seen Gilberts presets that he uses (not present
tense) on his Mp1's - They are flat as a board.  His tone may sound like
a goose, but thats HIM, not his rig.  I've listened to the new album from
Mr. Big a few times, and I'd be hard pressed to say he isn't using the same
rig as on his other efforts.  

jc (WHo thinks his presets sound like Toms ole Marshall - presisely :)

    >I've listened to the new album from Mr. Big a few times, and I'd be
    >hard pressed to say he isn't using the same rig as on his other
    >efforts.  
    
    Two words = NO WAY!!
    
    
    I coveted Gilberts roolin tone from his Lee jackson modified Marshall
    tops on Street Lethal and Second Heat...full, nasty, biting, thunderous
    tone!!  One of the reasons I *hate* the Mr. Big album is he switched to
    MP-1'sm, switched on the chorus pedal, and thinned out his sound a bit.
    You can hear this on the Racer X live album when paul switched to the
    MP-1s...his tone got much thinner.  When I saw Mr. Big live it was the
    same way.  Zakk Wylde uses Lee jackson amps and does not use Mp-1s...
    what do you think of his sound??
    

    I agree that Gilbert rooled on the early Racer X stuff.  His tone on
    that video was very different from that!
    
    Zakk Wylde's tone is ROOLIN!  Totally fat and punchy!  An excellent
    hard rock sound!
    
    Greg

Oh boy, here we go again... Sigh.

>    same way.  Zakk Wylde uses Lee jackson amps and does not use Mp-1s...
>    what do you think of his sound??

He's got an awesome tone - sounds like he stole one of my patches !!
Wagagagawagagagaga...  FWIW - As you know, *I* also use a Lee Jackson 
amp.

jc
 

    Now where did you see me raggin your rig (this time)?  I actually
    started to chime in, but decided to give you a break!
    
    Greg

Everyone rags my rig.  I'd say it's Tone Envy, but since I have more than one
tone, I'd say it's ToneS Envy.

Wagagagagagaaaaa...

jc

    If it's tone envy, then why aren't any of the rest of us buying one
    like it?  In fact, why have several of us SOLD one's like it?
    
    Greg

    Listen to the "crunch that killer your mother" chord sound on _Heart of
    a Lion_ off of Second Heat, then listen to the chord sound on _Addicted
    to that Rush_ off of Mr. Big.  Which do you like better, and why?

    Well I'm a midi rack puke because it gives me flexability that I CANNOT
    achieve any other way. I've gone back and forth between a tube
    amp/stack and the midi rig. Midi makes it for me. I typically use up to
    three different tones in a single song and a volume knob won't make the
    grade. However, I'm not just turing up to ten and forgetting about thhe
    amp either. If that's all you do then a midi rig would be a waste of
    time. I have a greater need for tonality than that. If all you need is
    mondo distortion and a good clean sound, skip the marsahll stacks, save
    the $'s and get a crate. I do notice that as time goes by I am mixing
    dryer and dryer on the intellifex and prefer the straight reverb patch
    to the chorus patches for purity of sound. Chorus does have it's place
    and I occasionally use a little echo. But it's the tube preamp that
    makes the sound.
    
    dbii who midi'd up the 9001 last night
    

    I got out of the MIDI business and turned combo_man, because I found
    myself constantly using less and less effects.  I dunno, I guess it
    just doesn't bother me to diddle with the knobs.  The programming got
    to be a drag too .... 
    
    Jerry

RE: .121

What he said...

jc (Who don't do TuToneRock)

I've decided to create a rat-hole in this topic.

I thought a lot about tone this weekend or, what I should say is
perceived tone...

Heres what I mean:

With todays scads of processing gear, kilo-watt PA's and such, not 
much of your rigs TONE actually gets heard by the crowd out front, at least
not how he was hearing it on stage.

I saw a band Friday night at Boomer here in the Springs.  I noticed
that the kid playin' guitar was using a Rockman MIDI_something (XPR perhaps?).

Anyway, the guy at the board had his tone (the whole band actually) SO layered
with FX (Verbs, chorus, flanging, aural exciters, gates etc...etc... ALL in 
stereo spread across the room like a blanket!), that there was a very 
miniscule amount of the guitarists actual sound left in the mix that we in 
the audience heard.  

I decided right then that it didn't matter what the guy was using for gear but 
what the Engineer was using for gear (mikes, FX, etc...), and how well he 
could use it.  FWIW - the engineer KNEW his sh*t!  They had a good sound, 
overall.  The only that seemed to REALLY matter was that the guitarist wasn't 
playing over the mix (read: volume was the only thing that mattered).

Now, I'm not saying that this is always the case, but I think if you mike your
guitar, it doesn't matter what you have for a rig, but what the engineer does
for you.

jc

BTW - We need a new sound man.  Our doods trailer door sprung on him Saturday,
helping him spread his 36 space FX rack all over the highway.  The worst is 
that his boards power supply was in there (about a $900 unit I guess, available
in limited quantity from England only).  He is VERY bummin'.  We're bummin' 
too.

    I just fell outta my chair .... could somebody help me up ?   8^)
    
    Jerry

I agree Coop. I used to play with my cabinet pointing across the stage so the
band could here it. We miked the cab and sent it through the PA. The most
important link in my situation was the micophone and where you placed it on
the cab. Our mains had 4 12's on each side of the stage so I wasn't loosing
my tone. I was constantly working with our sound engineer to get my sound to 
sound the same as what was coming out of my cabinet.

/marc

>I was constantly working with our sound engineer to get my sound to 
>sound the same as what was coming out of my cabinet.

Tough isn't it ?!?!

jc

re .127

yeah.. but he was pretty good. 2 of the 4 subs were for bass and drums which
received the most eq and compression. The other 2 subs were for vocals, synths,
and guitars. He never ran stuff like chorus, flange, delay, or reverb on my
guitar. I'd usually have to adjust the eq on my channel of the board a little.

/marc

    Personally, I think it'd be pretty rude of a sound man to be adding
    effects like chorus, flange, and delay to someone's *guitar* signal! 
    I'd never think of doing that.  I thought the purpose of the sound
    engineer was to make the band sound like they did already, only louder,
    and to get an even balance of the instruments?
    
    Greg

    I gotta disagree .... if you've got mega_processing on your rig,
    chances are that your original signal is taking a beating.  From my
    experiences, I've found that there are a few ingredients needed to have
    a good tone in a club/concert situation.
    
    1 - low stage volume (this gives the sound man enough head room to mix
        the BAND, not just you.  You can always dump some guitar back
        through the monitors).  This may mean that you need a 50W head and
        2x12's to get a good tone, rather that 150W and 16x12's set at .003
    2 - let the sound man handle effects such as delay/reverb from the
        board. He can add these effects to the monitor mix (if you desire)
        so you can hear the finished product.
    3 - the sound man usually has the best seat in the house, so try and
        place him in the best spot in the club.
    4 - trust his judgement.  If he says you're too loud, or you're tone
        has too much high or mid, he's probably right.  
    5 - set your own tone when possible.  If you're in a band with 2
        guitar players, let the other guy play your rig (guitar included)
        while you work the EQ/effects onthe board.  It's best if you can 
        do this during a song, not just with him strumming power chords.
    
    
    After all is said and done, the only thing you should be responsible for
    is playing.  
    
    
    Jerry
    

    Re: .129
    
    Sometimes, the guitarist may not want to hear the effects on stage, or
    perhaps a better processor is available at the board.  This is becoming
    less common as FX processors fall in price.  Several years ago I was in a
    top 40 band where the sound man added echo and flanging to the
    guitarist's signal on certain songs. This was way before digital FX
    were very cheap, I think the delay unit cost us about $700.  You could
    buy a $100 stomp box to do the same task nowadays. 
    
    						Brian

    re: -.1 & .2
    	I have to disagree with letting the sound man add reverb and delay
    effects at the board. Most guitaris that I know use these sparingly and
    creatively to add to particular parts of a performance. I mean, do you
    play with echo and reverb all the time??? If you do, you must have a
    pretty boring sound....
    
                                                           FJE

    A sharp soundman will be as rehearsed as any other member of the band,
    knowing when to punch in more delay/reverb/whatever during a
    particular segment of a song.  This leaves the performer free to
    perform.  Granted, a soundman like I just described is a rare find.
    
    Jerry
    

    I have to agree with *anyone* changing your sound. First of all, how
    do you really know what "amount of effect" he/she is putting on you?
    Yeah, you could get a signal into the monitors, but man, you talk about
    stage volume? Sure, let's add one more thing to the stage mix. My ears
    hurt just thinking about it. In *my* case (maybe not in yours) I only
    want what "I" put into the mix, not some clown waiting for a cue to 
    throw on some MEGA FLANGE and then hope he gets it in the right spot.
    Sorry, I'll take the chance in it not sounding as well using $1M worth
    of high end gear. Like the people out there drinking and dancing are
    really going to notice? In a sit down concert situation "maybe" and I
    do mean "maybe", but as for me...  I want the control of my signal in
    my mix so I can add and pull out what *I* want and not what some sound
    guy "thinks" would sound good. Recording engineers are the same way
    too! The way I see it, please suggest all you want because I appreciate
    your ideas, but please don't add something to the mix without consulting 
    me first. 
    
    Rock on,
    	    Fred

I like for the soundman to pad my signal with subtlty.  I'll add all the 
wild sh*t, but an overall nice verb and perhaps some panning and delay
is all I ask for.  He's got the overall EQ too.  

Flanging is on my controller, not his... :)

jc

    I pretty much agree with you Fred, but the question is really academic
    since it all depends on so many variables, ie the situation and type of
    music you play. 
    
    Were I to get back to gigging, I'm thinking that the
    group's profile would be basic instruments and amplification, a bit of
    reverb and delay just to wet the sound up some. I'm not sure I'd mike the
    instruments and bother with all that anymore. I think I'd go for a
    stage oriented sound and some sort of entertainment beyond the music.
    After all, its supposed to be live music isn't it. With all the
    processing and tall $$$$ spent on pa gear, I think it makes every band
    sound the same.  
    
    Fred, living in NH you've probably seen the Fabulous Heavyweights out
    at the White Horse. For me, they're the model band/sound I'd opt for.
    
    "sakman"
      

    I like to work with sound guys who are willing to do that, but I think
    soundmen should avoid doing that until they've worked with the band
    for awhile and have a feel for what they want.
    
    One of my bands, Citadel, did a gig with Jimi Ibbett (a GUITAR noter)
    on sound and we (or at least I) had worked out a few things in advance
    and he did a great job on those.
    
    It was nice not to have to worry about effects and have the sound man
    do it all because he has a better/more-objective view of how they
    fit into the overall mix.
    
    	db

    Yo, brothers of Tone!  I bring you great tidings which shall cause thee
    to rejoice.  Verily, I have discovered a tone of a most righteous
    nature in the blessed bins of our most holy CD retailers.  It is known
    simply as "An Evening with the Allman Brothers".  I begat this sacred
    vessel and carried it to my own living room, whereupon THE TONE! did
    issue forth from my speakers in a most righteous manner.  This most
    wondrous vessel doth contain such tone as to make an honest man covet
    his neighbor's Les Paul and Marshall stack.
    
    Rejoice brothers, rejoice!  THE TONE is with us again.

    I wanna know why most amps have trivial tone controls like bass,
    treble, midrange, presence, edge, contour, fat, thick, shape, etc. but
    only Vox had the ultimate:  Tone-X!  
    
    My studies have shown that even small amounts of Tone-X make the most
    decrepit guitar sing with a full, warm voice.
    
    						Barfbaghead 

    I wanna know why this is such a difficult thing for all of you.
    
    My first guitar amp had two knobs. Volume and tone. If I wanted more
    tone I turned that knob... easy as pie!!!
    
    $ SET TONE = MAX
    
    Edd

>    only Vox had the ultimate:  Tone-X!  
    
    Didn't Orange have something similar to that?  But they didn't actually
    *label* any of the controls on their amps, just put cryptic little
    icons on them...
                    
    Greg

    
    
     re: -.1 
      
       Yup, Orange had a knob labeled "PUNCH!" Maybe there was a cryptic
    fist under the knob! There was also a midrange control cals FACS that 
    stood for something.
    
    							-B()()M- 

    ISN'T THAT LIKE PRESENCE?

    There are a couple guitar tones that have fascinated me for years. Some
    sounds, like the guitar sound on Bluesbreakers, are great but aren't
    that difficult to duplicate. But here are the two that kill me:

    1) CLAPTON on FRESH CREAM: This *IS* the 100lb violin that Eric Johnson
    talks about. He can get it, God bless 'im. Clapton hasn't had that sound
    at any time either before or since that album. I didn't like his
    Disreili Gears sound. And after that, his sound evolved but was never
    anything very special again. But when I hear I Feel Free, et al, I die.
    The solo in Forever Man is really good, though.

    2) Just about every sound HENDRIX gets on AXIS: BOLD AS LOVE. I've heard
    SRV, EJ, and Satriani come close, but never get it completely. Hendrix'
    picking technique (I think) had a lot to do with the sounds he made. EJ
    says he still plays the album to cop the phrases. The guitar break in
    All along the Watchtower on Electric Ladyland is quite a collage of
    Hendrix sounds. If I could only play Wait Till Tomarrow properly I would
    die a happy camper.

    Somewhere in the cobwebs of my mind I seem to recall seeing that Clapton
    used the Firebird on Fresh Cream.  I think of the "Fresh Cream" sound as
    a little more tight and brittle, less crunchy than the later stuff; the
    Firebird, with it's single mini-humbucker by the bridge, would tend to
    get more of that type of tone.
    
    /rick

    I believe that Clapton in an interview in Musician or Guitar player
    about 3 or 4 years ago, said that his Les Paul was stolen just before
    they recorded Fresh Cream and that he used the SG for those sessions. I
    *know* he said that he used a 100W Marshall for that record. I saw them
    in a small club in Boston right after Fresh Cream was released here
    (1967) and he was using the famous SG and two 100W Marshall stacks. I
    don't know if he had them both honkin' though. I was only 20 feet in
    front of the amps with nothing except Eric's ankles between them and me.
    The guitar was loud but I don't think it was 200W worth of loud.

    re: .144
    
    Okay, I'll bite.  How do you duplicate Clapton's tone on the
    Bluesbreaker album?  I know he's playing a Les Paul in one of the
    pictures on the back cover; what else did he use?  Thanks.
    
    Dave

    A Marshall 45 watt 2-12" combo, you can buy reissues of these, they
    call them "Bluesbreaker" combos (wonder why...hahahahahaha).
    
    							Brian

Yeah, and a Paisley SG that Page gave him.  Neck pickup, and a spiral cord.

Could have sworne that  the SG was George Harrisons, from the magical mystery
tour album...

dbii

    	Well, after what seems an eternity, I am pretty sure I have found 
    "the" tone I have been searching for! What started out as an simple
    task has had a tremendous impact on my musical carreer.
    	I have been a Hendrix fan forever...as SRV said "King Tone". His 
    influence on my stay is very appearent, but that old Marshall Plexi
    sound has been the Holy Grail for me was allways just out of reach,
    missing just that little something. That "glassy" sound...It does
    something to me. I am a Fender lover. I have used their amps
    exclusively for as long as i have been seriously playing the guitar,
    which is, of course, a Strat. So, my delima was never finding a cool
    tone, but finding "that" tone. Reproducing that glassy marshall tone 
    from my rig has been a never ending quest...until now. 
    	Last week I plugged in my usuall set up: 
    
    VOX Wha -> Ibenez Tube Screamer -> Deluxe Reverb 
    
    What happened this time was amazing. My Wha was in the full treble
    position. I flipped to the neck p/up, nailed the Tube Screamer and
    rolled my guitar tone down top about 3....there it was. I lost it!
    I was absolutely floored. I had finally, after way too much time and 
    money spent experimenting with pedals, and every gizmo in the effects 
    industry, found that tone....I think I'm gonna cry...
    
    -kev- 

    
    Sounds pisser kev!!!  Keep on trying, you'll pin it.
    
    Kev --
    

    
    At last weekend's gig, a friend asked me if I was using any fxs. I said
    nope, just the 'Paul in to the Marshall. It basically has two sounds,
    but I like both of them!  The Allman Bros "Melissa" tone, and something
    close to Slash.  Yes, it's limited, but it's a wonderous thing when
    it's working. 8-)
    
    Kevin
    

    
    yep,  I've dumped the effects too...  gone back to plugging straight
    into the amp SG=>KHM1... why mess with perfection?
    
    /Steve

    
    I just use an EQ peddle to boost the signal from my guitar.I used the
    EQ in the effects loop but it was waaaay too senstive,so I went
    
    guitar=>EQ=>amp
    
    turned out pretty good.If I do add another peddle,I'd imagine it would
    be a wah-wah of some kind!
    
    
    					Ian

    re .151
    
    Ahhh, I know the feeling.  The pure joy of nailing *that* tone.  I guess
    when something like that happens, you kinda understand where someone
    like Eric Johnson is coming from.  Nailing your tone makes all the
    effort and bs seem worthwhile.
    
    For me, it's only really happened once.  I was playing a friends '57
    goldtop through a store's '68 100w plexi Marshall.  It hurt to have to
    let go of that guitar.
    
    Judicious use of the tone control is a lost art, certainly at least
    for me.  Somewhere early on I got the notion that tone controls should
    always be run wide open; I mean they only "take tone away", right :-)
    For me, and others I suspect, it's a hard habit to break.
    
    /rick
    

Been the whole route too..  Tube Screamers, Equalizers,
you name it I had to try it.

What worked for me was switching to Vavle amps.  Although
we all know the reliability isn't there with tubes
the tone sure as hell is.

and there really is Nothing like a Marshall with a Les
Paul.  All ya need from there is a cable and a pick,..
it's really a tone marriage...

Another small amp that's a total tone trip is the
crate Vintage Club 30 wat, (class A) with the 1 12"
speaker.  This amp was MADE for a strat..  Very versitle
little amp.  Sounds mint with a Gibson too...  nice
little amp.  It was dubed the "Tone Monster" last year.

for me, what works is to simplify as much as possible. 

    	Regarding that Crate V-30... A buddy of min ehas one. He runs a
    Es335 Epi thru it. INCREDABLE TONE! (a la Freddie King). I personally
    think that amp kicks some serious buttocks, but was a bit too middy for
    my tastes with my strat running thru it.
    	Fwiw, that amp should have made amp of the year! For ~$400 can.,
    that is some serious amp....
    
    -kev-

They are a great deal, and I think they go for like $290 or so if 
you wait for a big sale at either EU. or maybe the Guitar Center.  
I picked mine up for like $235 ($250 w/tax) used last year when they
were real close to 4-bills new.

They've (Crate) also issued one in black Tolex w/black grill cloth, 
but the cream Tolex with the brown tweed  grill cloth is a way better
looker (IMHO)  Does show the wear quicker though. I'd guess an amp 
cover is highly recommended with the Cream tolex.  

Either way, a honey of an amp.   Just good for the ears, easy on the back 
to move.  when my JTM 60 went downm that little crate was a life saver, 
a true work horse.

(There is also a CRATE VC50 with 3x10s in it, but it's a mutha to move,.)

I've got an Epi Sheraton that has humbuckers, where the Casino (335 plain 
jane knock off) has P90s which are single coils...  love to hear that!

but I really like the tone with the Shearton, and my 'Paul with Alnicos 
really sounds sweet..  My fav. combination so far though, oddly enough is 
the Strat Plus, but I agree with the Mids,. I did have to just about cut 
the Midrange  out of the EQ to sweeten it up.

/pelkster

    
    Guitar -> compressor -> tube screamer -> cry baby -> 2-10" Vibroverb
    
    This does it for me!
    
    
    Fred

    Hand -> finger -> pick -> String -> D28
    
    Bruce

    Fingertips (flesh and nail) -> OM28 

    
    	re: Crate V-30 - hey Ray, would this amp have cut it during that
    	jam we had at Gary's?  Also, how does it sound at low volumes?
    	I wouldn't mind another amp for crankin' in front of the tv.
    	Maybe this is too much?  Maybe all I want is some baby Fender?
    
    	Also, anyone know the best deal on one of these?  Sounds like
    	a cool amp.  Rick C - you know my taste in tone, what do you
    	think?  (shoot, I'm always asking you - why stop now? ;)
    

    Pound for pound, it's hard to imagine a better deal on a small combo
    than the VC30.  I'm currently partial to my Fender Pro Junior, but it's
    a real no frills affair; just volume and tone, and that's all I need.
    If you want something with a few more features/flexibility, the VC is
    it.
    
    /rick
    

Well, depends on two things..

1. how loud you gotta be!

2. how loud you need to be!


:^)

Probably would have cut the jam, until the volume
got a little searing, then it probably still would have.
It is really ballzy for a 30 watter,, (Class A circuitry
no-doubt has something to with that,,  but it is a very 
LOUD 30 watts jess the same..)  that jam may have been pushin 
it's limit though.

As far as an amp to plunk infront of the tv with, yea,
it'd do that.  at low/moderate volumes, it really has
a nice milky gain, and a gorgeous clean sound.

Given the comperable product would be a  peavey classic 30, 
I think the Crate has a little more beans than the Peavey. 
(Although the Peavy classic 30 1x12 is a  nice little amp too.)
But I don't think the Peavey shouts like the Crate does, so
the Crate is probably more versitle given it would support
higher volumes.

plus I think the crate is cheaper...

Price-wize,, somewhere between 300 to high 300s,, on
sale probably closer to $300...

And you just CAN NOT find these in the wantads, I guess
once someone gets one, they hold onto it.  if you got the
cashola, it's not a bad buy Tom..

/pelks

I should mention,, I use the VC30 as a practice amp
in the show band, and it's never-ever not been loud enough.

    
    	Great - thanks!  I'll start looking around.
    	Tom
    

E.U. Wurlizter in Worcestor has one in stock,

Action Music in Leominster (Right down in Searstown
across from Pizza Hut,) has one too...

At least there's two places in easy distance from Marlboro
where you can try one out.

They tend to move pretty quick, they are hot items.
I really love mine, I think you'd like it too.

You may get a better starting price at E.U. then
see if Action will beat it!

/ray