Conference napalm::guitar

    I thought an Ovation sounded better acoustic than a Martin , both
    in the same store. I have a Martin, and find ovations hard to hold.
    So I'm surprized you find they lack the tone. Oh well.

    The Ovations are *ok*.  I like the electric classical guitars they
    offer, the the steel strings sound a little blah to my ears.  Takamine
    makes a nice elec/acous. IMO, check em out!

    In your price range ($300), you're automatically talking Japanese for
    anything decent.
    
    As Buck said, the Takamine's are great.  I'm partial to the cutaways
    with the 4 band EQ on board.  Available on 6 & 12 strings.
    
    Another decent elec/acous is Ibanez (Performance Series I think).  I've 
    checked some out recently and they are great for the $$$.
    
    Mike

    Washburn makes a nice thin body elec/acou with decent electronics
    on board. (three band eq.. uses a 9v. battery)
    
    I bought an Ibanez Lonestar (Thin body elec/acou) and it plays
    and sounds very good considering it has a bridge pickup. 
    
    Of course, it isn't your standard hollow body acoustic...  It's
    meant to be used w/an amp.
    
    Also, You can buy pickups that fit in the hole of any acoustic.
    
    I've also got an Ibanez PF40 that is an excellent guitar for
    the money.
    
    Some are real winners, but there's a few made by diamzio and seymoure
    duncan that are really nice.  
    You can pick up a Lonestar for around $300.00.

    
    Another recommendation for Takamines, they do sound good.  They may go
    just a little beyond $300, though.  I don't like the sound of the
    Ovations, either......
    
    I've seen more and more performers using Takamine lately.  Pete
    Townshend used one on the "Tommy" tour, when he played acoustic.
    
    Dave

    
    Takamine is imported by Ovation and uses the same pickup/preamp system.
    
    They have tended to market them to players who can't get into the
    roundback sound/feel.

    I have an ovation and I have two things to say about it:
    
    1. It can be hard to hold. A strap cured that problem.
    
    
    2.  For some reason it sounds good on tapes. ( i'm the only person in
        the universe that has a left handed ovation w/ no pickup. ) :-)
    
    jay 
    

Some more thoughts on this:

There are two approaches.

1.  Buy an acustic electric.  Many of them have a pickup in the bridge
    and some of these pickups can sound to harsh for what your really
    looking for which is an acoustic sound live.

    An eq on board helps, if one isn't available on the guitar you end
    up liking, a stomp box EQ can be a very good subsitute.  that takes care
    of the 'harsh sound.

2.  Another option is to buy an acoustic, and then one of the newer
    pickups designed to 'snap' into the sound hole.  I've had experience
    with both, and personally, the snap in pickups, (if you get a good one)
    are better sounding than most of the bridge pickups like youd see in an 
    ovation.  (they are inherently wamrer sounding because they're reproducing
    the sound from the body of the guitar, not the resonance of the bridge.)

    add an Eq, and that sucker sounds real nice!

The choice has to be set upon which criterion is most important.  If you're
looking for an ACOUSTIC to have, and one you can use both on the couch, and
up on stage, then option 2 may be your best alternative.

If you get into the thin bodies, they're nice and play great, (I have one)
but they do not have the warm acoustic sound that you want out of an acoustic
when you just playing for the sake of playing at home.

(This is the reason I have also bought an Acoustic,, acoustic...)

No as far as ovations go, I like the Legend series (thin ones) and for
amplified playing, they're o.k. cuz the have equaliztion.  (They also
play wonderfully, and cost as much as your average living room set.)

But they don't have the same warm sound that a full bodied acoustic
would have. 

Compare the Ovation Legend 12 string to the a Guild 12 string dreadnaught,
and the Ovation pales in comparison to the Guild.

I had a 6-string Baladier some time ago, and personally I never liked it.  It 
was a  cold uncomfortable beast.

Takamini makes a real nice 6 and a nice 12 for the money.

(I'd have reservation about 12 string holding out over the years though,
lots of tension on the neck and bridge...  Downtuning and capoing is such 
a drag..)  The electronics are not bad either, but it is a bridge pickup.

For the money/investment/benefits.. if I new then what I know now,
I'd have simply bought the one Acoustic (nonelec) and one of the snap
in type of pickups.   I'm currnetly considering selling the lonestar,
buy a pickup, and pocket the other $200 dollars and just use my PF40
on stage.

'We use acoustic guitars in our set lists every night, and we have one of
each. Elec/Acou. and Acoustic with snap on pickup.  I think the snap
on pickup sounds better.  But, my (Ibanez) Lonestar 'plays' better then the
(Yamaha) acoustic.

If you like some info on these snap on pickups, let me know, I can send you
something off line.

regards,
/ray

    Straps on an Ovation are OK but for my classical stuff I have to sit
    down.  Also the face of the guitar I prefer to angle about 40-45
    degrees up, not perpendicular to the floor. The ovations slide
    right out from under you. 
    
    I'd second the idea of a snapin, but how do these units hold out
    against feedback? 

    I have a BIll Lawrence snap in that works pretty good.  I never
    really played live with it, but it works as well as my Kramer
    Ferrington with TC Electronics.
    
    I also have an ovation that is (to me) stictly a sofa-guitar.  That
    salad bowl back is a real pain to play with standing up.  The singer
    in my band has a couple of Takamines.  They are beautiful !
    
    If your looking for more of an electric than an acoustic try a Kramer
    Ferrington.  As a regualr acoustic they are mediocre, but plug them
    in and they are GREAT !  Plus they are light and easy to hold because
    of the strat body style.
    
    jc

    re:9, Snapins vs. feedback.
    
    
    I haven't heard a peep out of it since he started using it.
    
    Seems to work very good.
    
    for $80, it oughta

Will wonders never cease - Rod finds TIME for NOTING?!?!?!?  8^)


re [.0]

> Being that I still play around in bands from time to time
	From time to time is right - we're about to start sequencing
	your bass parts 8^)


> Can I get something decent for $300?? Or am I dreaming?
	My guess is that what you'll find for that price is probably
	just about what you've alredy got.

As for Ovations, there are all kinds of ovations - some with plywood tops, and
better ones with spruce - the better ones certainly sound nice, but you're
gonna pay for them, and in that price range there are probably lots of others
that might sound better (Guilds, Martins, etc.).


All of the Takamines I've heard/played were pretty nice, but they're not
exactly cheap either.

Since you can buy the under-the-bridge type pickups & pre-amps, I think your
best bet is ti find a straight acoustic with a sound you like, and add the
electronics.  Personally, I never liked the pickups that snap into the sound
hole - you end up with too much of an electric sound, but admittedly, I haven't
heard them all.  
    
    
    	Here's your best bet - buy my LoPrinzi & add a Fishman pickup . . .
    
    						joe

    I recently wanted to replace my Washburn D12 with a Takamine or Ovation
    electro-acoustic and was told *by a dealer* who stocked both makes
    that I would not gain anything in terms of quality of the acoustic
    sound. 
    
    I opted in the end for a preamp and Lowden pickup to be installed
    permanently inside my Washburn and am very happy with this solution.
    
    It certainly cost me less than investing in a new guitar (total
    cost with bridge and other various adjustments comes to about $250
    in Switzerland (probably less in the U.S.). Why not try that with your 
    Guild ? 
    
    By the way Lowden (hope I got the name right) is a make of guitars
    from Ireland (beautiful quality - but expensive). Dont known if
    they are marketed in the U.S.

    Regards,
      Rick
    

    You may want to check out Stewart McDonald - they carry a couple of
    under-the-saddle type pickups, with associated preamps that mount
    either in the guitar, or clip on the strap.  One benefit of this
    approach is that you can put it on your current guitar, and always move
    it to another later.  Also, this way you can pick an acoustic for its
    acoustic properties, not for the presence/absence/quality of its
    electronics.

    
    	This is perhaps a little afield of Rod's original request, but my
    beloved 82 Ovation Collectors Edition has dropped a channel. Only
    one channel comes out, and i've eliminated the plugs (mono & stereo).
    So, anyone know exactly what's inside, and perhaps a good location
    and price of repair?  Oh, and when i bought this years ago, i was
    not an ovation fan - still don't like the bowl for comfort, but after
    playing everything i could find for a couple of months, i settled on
    this sucker, and am basically thrilled with it (except for the current
    electrical problems).  I find i can get  lovely acoustic sounds, yet
    a very wide range of electric sounds with minimal effects processing.
    True, i don't use it on stage...
    
    	bob
    

  Last night I spent about an hour playing two ovation guitars.  It's
  the first time I've looked at this type of guitar.  I have a Yamaha
  6 string (it's about 12 years old) and the sound has improved with 
  age.  

  Will a solid spruce top ovation get better with age, or is what I hear 
  now what I will always get?  What is the reliability of the ovations
  in general?  I'm looking at spending a small fortune for a 12-string
  ovation with a 65 watt amp (can't remember the name of the d*mn thing,
  but I think (??) ovation makes it...)

  Can I get similar sound quality for less $$$, or is it really worth it?
  Does anyone have any ideas how much off list price music stores typically
  negiotiate down to?  Right now they've come down 30% off list.  Is that 
  a good deal?

   ...i'm consumed by the sound at this point....

  Thanks for the advice!

  Cindy---

    The Takamine 12 strings are also excellent and can be had for $500-$600
    (depending on the dealer).  Takamine is the traditional-acoustic (no
    roundbacks) division of Ovation.
    
    Add a Kitty Hawk M3 (100w) to that for about $250 and you have a decent 
    setup :-)
    
    Mike

    I can't comment on the Ovations (Kaman's amps are called KMDs -- Kaman
    Music Division), but 40% off list price is a pretty good estimate of
    what you should pay for a new instrument from any manufacturer.
    
    - Evan (Who just did a bunch of comparative pricing and shopping for
    his axe.)
    
    

    I know about KMD.  It is hard to justify anything else though when the
    Kitty Hawks are going for 80% off and are better amps to begin with.
    
    Buy the Takamine for a traditional style electric/acoustic or the
    Ovation for the contemporary style.  Either way, consider a Kitty Hawk
    for your amp.
    
    Mike

	Well, I was looking at the part numbers this morning for the
	setup I tried out, and it was a KMDxxx65 amp.  So I guess that 
	means it was a KMD, right?

	I was in another store last night --- that does not carry Ovations
	or Takamines--- and boy did the "salesman" give me an earful about
	long term problems with both models.  Allegedly, Ovations crack at
	the spruce top and plastic body interface, and Takamines crack 
	along the neck.  Was this guy feeding me a line because he doesn't
	carry the brand any more (they did in the past)?

	I'm going to be in MA/NH next week....Is there any GREAT music
	store I should check out while I'm there?

	Again, thanks for the help!


	Cindy---

>	I was in another store last night --- that does not carry Ovations
>	or Takamines--- and boy did the "salesman" give me an earful about
>	long term problems with both models.  Allegedly, Ovations crack at
>	the spruce top and plastic body interface, and Takamines crack 
>	along the neck.  Was this guy feeding me a line because he doesn't
>	carry the brand any more (they did in the past)?
        
        As would a Chevy sales* if (s)he had just stopped selling Fords :^)
        
        FWIW,  I've  had  various Ovations since the mid/late '70s  and
        I've  never  had  any  mechanical or cosmetic problems whatever
        with any  of them.  I've never heard of anyone having the kinds
        of problems you  were  told about.  I believe in them enough to
        spend over 1k on a custom Legend 12 string a few months ago.
        
        Andy
        
        PS.  An old Legend of mine  travelled  from  the  US  to  Saudi
        Arabia, to UK and back to Saudi over  a 6 month period, with NO
        delamination or neck-bowing or splitting.

    re. .20
    
    Totally agree with .21  I've had four Ovation, 3 six strings and 1 12
    and had NO troubles.  Also, the sound you heard is basicly it, I have
    a Glen Cambel (sp?) custom  I've had for 12 years now.  Wouldn't part
    with it for NO amount of money, and it sounds exactly like the day I
    bought it.  Personally I love it.  Sounds to me like the guy was trying
    to feed you a line. 
    
    As for the round vs. traditional back issue, depends on your preference
    and what your gonna do with the axe.  If you do club gigs, or pub gigs,
    and stand while you play, the round back is not a problem.  I sit when
    I play so I wear a strap to overcome the problem of the guitar sliding
    down my leg.  The Takamines are as good as the ovations I've played. 
    Never owned one but everybody I've tlaked to who has are very happy
    with them.
    
    Good luck in your selection.  Also, if yer in N.H. try Hampshire Music,
    RT 101A, exit 7, Nashua, N.H.  And if you do stop in Hampshire, don't
    beleave any bullsh*t about 50% off list.  Just check the prices they
    offer agains what you KNOW are "List" prices.
    
    			GONZO

I've got a Tak ES-360 for 6-7 years now and never had any problems with it.
Sound's like he was blowing smoke...

dbii

    The new Guitar Player covers this area in their popular comparison
    reviews.  The Alvarez-Yairi CS8000(?) won the best overall.  I'll be
    sure to try one of these out when I find one around here.
    
    Mike

    I think Greg has a guitar similar to that...  A sweet guit for
    sure!!
    jc

    No, mine's acoustic only, ceder top.  Nice guitar, but no electronics.
    
    Greg

I have the Guild cutaway that was reviewed in that article and am 
extremely pleased with it.  GP was critical of the brightness of the
Fishman electronics, but I am pleased with the open sound.  With some
shopping, you should be able to pick this up for $600 plus case.  

A definite "should consider" from my perspective.