Conference napalm::guitar

>	I also
>	find that I play with a much different feel than our keyboard
>	player.  
    
	The reason for this is that you play Bass with the perspective
	of a BASS guitar player. I used to play bass guitar & I sequence
	stuff for my MIDI duo. My bass patterns sound real different than
	my keyboard players. I tend to think that mine sound more like
	the feel that a bass guitarist would add to a song. This is not
	to say that the Keyboard player's bass patterns arn't good,
	they are just different.

	As for swapping back & forth....

	Go for it. A friend of mine does this & it sounds great, 'cause
	he isn't limited to the sounds that his Fender P-Bass can make,
	and yet he still has the perspective that years of playing a
	bass can provide.

	I used to play drums & my sequenced drum parts are similar to what
	a drummer would play also. I'd say perspective is the positive
	point here, and you can't learn that out of a book.

								Jens

    Howard: 
    
    Personally, I like the idea of having a mixture of synth-bass and
    traditional, and I surely agree with you that the B wire on a
    five-string is sloppy and muddy.  
    
    I have been looking for a new bass guitar as many of you know.  And the
    new high-end basses are fairly expensive.  Therefore, I have been
    considering a synth-bass set up.  I'm getting to the point where I'd
    rather sink my money into to something new (for me at least), like a
    synth.  
    
    But - not knowing anything about midi-keyboards and synth-bass
    devices, I am at a loss as to where to start.
    
    How about sharing some of your specific information regarding the gear
    you're currently using and what you'd do differently (if anything) if
    you were to set up a synth-bass from scratch?
    
    I'd also like to know if you're pushing your sound through your bass
    amp or that killer P.A. of yours too. 
    
    Thanx ... Dan

RE < Note 1583.2 by FDCV07::DADDIECO "That's Just The Way It Is ....." >

	Finding a synth for bass is one of the easiest things to do - and can be
the least expensive, depending on your tastes.  Some of the best bass sounds 
come out of fairly old-tech single oscillator monophonic synths, such as can be
bought from a wantadvertizer for $100.  Of course, you have to learn how to 
program it, or at least have someone show you the optimal settings for the kind 
of bass sound(s) you want, but there are plenty of us around (especially in 
COMMUSIC) that can help you there.

	Almost any synth, analog, digital, MIDI or non MIDI, will do bass and do
it fairly well.  If you want to be real imitative of bass guitar, you may want 
to spring for a midi keyboard with velocity sensitivity (responds to how hard
you press the keys).  Once you have MIDI capability, if you don't like the sound
you're getting, you just get a different SGU (sound generating unit).  No need
to replace the keyboard.

	I'd be glad to help you out in specific recommendations.  You need to
have a good idea of how much you want to spend.

	Dan

    In reference to my set up,  for a bass player its got to be one of the
    most confusing set-ups I've ever seen or played on, but now that I've
    gotten use to all the changing I love it.  My amp set up consists of 
    Joe's double 18's, with a Peavy 215 cab (2 tens and a horn with a
    300watt built in amp) and the Peavy Mark IV head, This is Bi-amped and
    crossed over at about 350, the low-end is incrediable, not loud, but
    real punchy.  Our drummer who uses all Simmons has about the same set 
    up but doubled, sounds crazy but between his bass drum and the bass 
    the stage is real punchie , and since funk is  mostly bass and
    drums it kicks, all this is still run through our main system.
    
    
    On stage I have  four separate bass instruments running though my set
    up: 2 separate guitars, and two separate keyboards. I use a Music Man
    Sting Ray just for slapping, my main axe is a Ken Smith, for keys I use
    just a Roland Juno I. I've spent hours playing with the sounds and have
    about 20 different bass sounds on that, the other keys come from our
    keyboard players set up I like the slap sound of his DX7 for a couple 
    of songs that I have sequenced the bass. 
    
    I had a box built with 3 ins and I use an A-B box as well,  so
    getting use to the changing took some time.  
    
    Dan:  In reference to high end basses its all a question of what your
    looking for and what sound you like.  I purchased the Ken Smith about
    3 years ago, and fell in love with it.  I was using a Pedula at the
    time and this friend that owns a music store brought it to one of my
    gigs walked up during a song and handed it to me.  I played it for a 
    couple of songs but wasn't blown away, then when he told me how much it
    was I really wasn't that impressed.  He left the gig told me to keep
    it for a couple of days and really try it out, that was all it took.
    I think thats what you have to do play it for a while, and you really
    need to hear it the way your gonna play it at a gig, not on some little
    amp in the store.   As far as basses go I have the one I want I have 
    between the keyboards and the two basses almost all the sounds I want
    except about 3 real nice bass sounds that I've only heard from a
    Mini-Moog, we have one of those but its just to much trouble and time
    consuming changing all the knobs.  Is there a keyboard out there that
    has just bass sounds????????
      
    
                                                    Howard
    
    

    I agree that bass guitar players think quite differently about bass
    lines than keyboard players. I used to play bass and am also doing
    MIDI sequencing now, and most of the commercial sequencing has what I
    would consider to be degenerate bass lines, at least on the songs that
    were originally done on a bass guitar. It's difficult on a
    keyboard, however, to do a lot of the things you would do on a
    fretboard. It is possible to use the pitch bender creatively to
    simulate fretted bass sounds, but although I've been able to do this
    for sequencing I couldn't begin to pull it off live. Maybe with enough
    practice you could.
    
    All that may be beside the point, however, because if you are using the
    keyboard bass to augment the sound you already have you may want to do
    different things anyway. If I was sitting there with both a bass guitar
    and a keyboard bass in front of me, I'd use the guitar where I wanted
    that style and the keyboard where I wanted that style. At that point I
    think the main difference between a trained bass player and your
    typical keyboard player is that keyboard players think of bass lines as
    simply "bottom", and tend to play repetitive patterns, fairly
    non-creative. Bass players who are used to thinking of their bass lines
    almost as melodies are bound to be more innovative.
    
    On the subject of equipment, you should check out the COMMUSIC
    conference for recommendations. I know there are things like the
    MIDIbass and the ProMIDIbass which people seem to like for their bass
    sounds (moreso the latter). As far as keyboard controllers go, you
    would definitely want something that was touch sensitive for velocity
    (volume). Touch sensitivity can also be used to combine effects, for
    example, if you hit the note softly you get a rounder bass sound, and
    as you hit it harder you get more edge, like a real bass. Or you might
    get some kind of harmonic shift, say adding in an octave above, as you
    hit harder. After touch can also be used in this way. These kinds of
    effects would be almost impossible to get on a bass guitar. But that's
    about the extent of my knowledge of keyboard controllers. Again, if
    you're getting into this aspect it would be worth checking out the
    COMMUSIC conference.
    
    - Ram

    A couple other thoughts have driven me to appreciate strengths of
    both the keyboard and the bass.
    
    You don't have to change strings on your bass too many times
    before you could pay for a ProMIDIbass.  At around $25
    each month, you begin wondering where the money went.
    
    The keyboard does not have the dynamic volume range of the
    electric bass, and some standard stuff like slides and pops
    aren't there either.  The keyboard ususually has a very
    limited sample to work from, unless you have a Synclavier.
    
    I put togther a five layer bass patch on the keyboard
    that leaves the electric bass looking around the room
    for the other players.
    
    When I first started using the keyboard, I used it for a
    variation in sound - adding "synth" type of tones, but
    find myself returning to the fullness and control of
    a stringed electric.  I'm sure your material will tend
    to determine your setup requirements.
    

I also agre with the feel thing that Howard and some others have
mentioned.

Since going midi, (midi guitar) I find that the string sounds you
can produce with a midi giutar are very 'real felling'.

Piano, and organ (aka REAL KEYBOARD sounds) are a bit more difficult
to reproduce, however after we got a feel for it, you can almost
nail a piano or organ sound, (With the obvious limitations, but the
compromise is worth the effort.)

so, to me, there's certainly lots of room for midi instruments in
todays market,  If you can afford to set it up, you can't go wrong.

    FWIW, the bass player in my band plays synth-bass on about half the
    songs we do.  He's using a Korg Poly 800 now, but before that used a
    Mini-Moog.  These are both pretty much dinosaurs of the synth world,
    but the were both extremely inexpensive and (IMO) sound great for bass
    sounds.
    
    We play a lot of music that lends itself that that sort of sound, which
    helps (techno-pop, new-wave type stuff).
    
    Yeah, it doesn't sound at all like a real bass, but that's  intentional
    in this case.  If the cover tune calls for a real bass, then he plays
    one.
    
    Greg

    
    
       As an aside, 360 Systems Pro-midibass (rack mount) are being
    blown out at Dr. SOund (NY) for $199. Holds 6 sound chips.
      The Doc does mail order..........212-353-0518
    
                                             Rich
    

Hi there !

I'm also thinking of buying a MIDI Guitar (say a reasonable CASIO w/o SGU)
especially for sequencing the bass lines, which often lacks the right groove
when played in with the keyboard (V50). I'm sure others have done this before,
maybe someone is willing to share the expirience ?

	best regards

		Richard

    Sequencing a bass line could be tricky from a guitar controller,
    *especially* if the guitar uses pitch-to-MIDI conversion. 
    
    The lower the pitch produced by the guitar the longer it takes for
    the converter to 'lock in' on the pitch. What *may* be usefull is
    to transpose the SGU down an octave or 2 (or more) and play the
    part way up on the neck of the guitar where the strings vibrate 
    faster, subsequently figuring out the pitch quicker. The SGU then
    transposes this down to where you want it. A drawback to this may
    be unnatural sounding envelopes, but that's also something that you
    could possibly fix at the SGU.
    
    Some controllers, like the Yamaha, don't rely on pitch-to-MIDI
    conversion but they also can't function as a regular guitar.
    
    The first (and last) guitar controller I ever played worked using
    the pitch-to-MIDI system. Playing the open 6th string produced a
    sound at SGU so removed in time from my hitting the string that at 
    first I didn't realize it was 'working'! Yuk...
    
    A friend of mine (a reader of this conference) uses a Casio controller.
    He says there is no appreciable delay. I sceptically (sp?) believe him
    after hearing him use it. How it avoids (or lessens) the delay is
    beyond me. The physics involved in conversion absolutely mandate a
    delay of some sort.
    
    Edd 

    
    
      Yes, I sequence bass lines daily using a Casio MG-510 midiguitar.
   I sometimes transpose the SGU, as Ed suggested, and play the lines 1
   octave higher on the guitar. On slower songs(< 110bpm) I just play
    em as they come, as I prefer the lower strings for feel.
      I'd be lying if I said there was no delay from the lower strings,
    but nothing as drastic as the last reply suggests comes out of *my*
    guitar.
    
                                             Rich
    

    The controller I thought was horrible was a retrofit attached to a
    strat. It was played some time ago.
    
    I got a chance to play my friend's Casio yesterday. The delay was
    NOTHING like the retro-fit. The low E string exhibits a noticeable
    delay, maybe on the idea of .100 to .250 ms. With the exception of 
    maybe the lowest octave, it responded quite nicely.
    
    One thing I'd never thought about; Sliding up the neck in chromatic
    mode just doesn't work. A 1 octave slide produced about 3 notes.
    
    All in all, I was considerably more impressed than I thought I would
    be. Not a bad unit at all...
    
    Edd

	Glad to hear that the CASIO can be used for that.
	And also too bad, that the used one that was advertised last
	weekend was already sold.   :-(

		Richard

    RE:12
    Gee willikers Richie, I thought after hearing those tapes that
    you actually bought all those instruments ande learned them....
    Oh Well, another little alligator's vision of daddy destroyed
    like a moth waiting for a windshield on the freeway...........
    p.s.-do midimen really eat quiche???  :^>
    -Bill

    
   RE.15 
      Yes Bill. Thru a straw.