Conference napalm::guitar

      I used to have a Kramer fretless and used rotosounds on it, the
    only thing with roto's is that (for a fretted bass) they tend to
    eat frets, and on a fretless they tend to gouge into the fingerboard.
    which over time tends to wear in nicely, but it does take a away
    a bit from the appearance, if thats important to ya.
    
    
                                                        Dan . . .

    RE: .1
    	That's the main reason why they put "flats" on it. I've seen
    many fretless basses with "halfwound" strings. GHS makes a 
    pro formula "BriteFlat" string in medium and light gauge. 
    Personally, I wouldn't put roundwound strings on a fretless.
    A fretted bass is fine, cause then you just replace the frets
    (after a while), but with a fretless... replace the neck? Not
    for me. So what choices do you have? 
    
    1.) Tapewound: Very flat sounding, but will never hurt your neck
                   and some say it has more of a stringbass tone.
    
    2.) Flatwound: Brighter than #1, but still has a mellow tone, *if*
    		   you're used to roundwound strings. These strings will
    		   save your neck as well.
    
    3.) Halfwound/Groundwound/BriteFlats: Much brighter than #1, or
    		   #2, but won't chew up your neck like regular 
    		   roundwound strings. After alot of use you may however
    		   start to see neck wear with these strings. (see 1546.1)
    
    My vote? Flatwound, or Briteflats, but not roundwounds.
    For that "double bass" tone, go with tapewound strings.  
    
    JMHO   -   Fred
                                                           

    Another option you might want to check out is a string made (or
    sold, anyway) by Ken Smith - "Oval(w? r?)ounds".  I've been meaning
    to try these on my fretless, but haven't gotten around to it.
    They seem to be similar in concept to the half-round idea, except
    a little more toward the round-wound sound; I'd expect they
    probably would groove the fingerboard out somewhat sooner, too.
    
    For what it's worth, I use D'Addario Half-Rounds.  If the action
    is low enough, you can get a considerable amount of growl out of
    them.  The main complaint I have about them is that I wish the low E
    had better definition.
    
    Paul

     I read that Jaco (Mr.fretless)used to get marine epoxy from a boating
    supply and coat the fingerboard with it....it's very hard and will
    allow you to use any strings.I haven't got around to doing mine
    yet but I'll let you know when I do how it turns out.
    -Bill

    I've tried a fretless done up with marine epoxy; I didn't like it.
    If you don't care for the slippery feel of a maple neck, you
    probably won't care for this either.
    
    Former noter and fretless bassist extraordinaire Steve K used to
    use Rotosounds on a fretless rosewood P-bass.  His solution to the
    groove problem was to have the fretboard planed every couple of
    years (Macduff's did it for him).  I remember being pretty suprised
    by this, but Steve said it wasn't too expensive or a big hassle.
    That P-bass had a nice, thick slab of rosewood on it too.  Evidently
    he thought the feel of the wood was worth the trouble.
    
    /rick

    I spoke with Steve not too long ago and believe he mentioned he was
    shopping for a new neck.
    
    Seems the rosewood is getting a bit thin...
    
    Edd

    Depending on how much you wanna spend, fretboards *can* be replaced.  I
    doubt that it would be a cheap repair.  Overall it's probably cheaper
    to buy a new neck.
    
    Greg

    
    re .6
    
    I believe he's already replaced the neck.  Guess there was nothing
    left to plane!
    
    Ralph
    
    

    RE .5, .6, .7, .8
    
    	I rest my case!   ;^)
    	Now, it's your choice... replace strings, or fretboard?
    
    	Gee let me think about this for a minute....    ;^)
    
    
    	Fred 

    
    Some roundwounds are worse than others.  Rotosounds are probably *the*
    most abrasive strings known to man  8^)  8^)  Buying a new neck is OK
    for a Fender maybe, but for neck-through basses it can get a bit pricey 
    8^)  8^)
    
    I use Fender rounds on my fretless and I have no problem with neck
    wear.  I briefly tried Dean Markley rounds, these left marks on the
    fingerboard and caused gouging of the bridge saddles!!!
    
    I will admit I used to use Daddario Half-Rounds but found for rock
    music they weren't bright enough.
    
    Pedulla is the only bass manufacturer that I know of who has gone to
    the trouble of epoxying fretless necks at the factory.  The epoxy adds
    to the tone as well, enhancing the "growl".  The feel, of course, is an
    acquired taste.
    

    re: .10
    
    Interesting...how long have you been using the Fender rounds?
    And approximately how long do they stay bright-sounding enough
    to suit you?
    
    Paul

    
    
    Re: .11
    
    I've been using them for about three years now.  I only change strings
    about every six months, even though they change tone considerably over
    that time.
    
    							Brian

    I bought my fretless with roundwound strings on it. When it was time to
    replace them, I was about to get some roundwounds when the guy who sold
    me the guitar told me to stay away from the rw becuse of the neck
    gauging. The neck on mine had started to show the effect of their use.
    Liking the tone of the rw string, I reluctantly agreed to put on
    flat-wounds. I have absolutely no problem with the sound of the flats,
    and don't you want to why?
    
    Check this out. The fretless has a much diffent sound, and use than a
    fretted bass that most of us use. What's important with a fretless is
    the ability to slide from one note to the other adding fluidity to the
    composition. Roundwound strings are admittedly brighter. But I think
    the brightness pales in importance when you consider what you're really
    trying to do with a fretless. Add to that the use of a stereo chorus
    and the subtlety that's -changed- by using the flatwound string (notice I
    didn't say lost) still greatly enhances the flavor of the piece, so
    long as the peice is something that the fretless is suited for. 
    
    In other words, if you wanna do slap 'n pop, stick to the fretted.
    If you wanna do something tasteful (and please I don't mean to imply
    that s&p can't be tasteful) that has a real signature type of sound to
    it, use the fretless. If you play a fretless for that reason, you
    have nothing to fear by using flatwound strings. 

    Some questions on fretless bass:
    
    I just bought a second-hand 4-string fretless (my first fretless).  It
    is a home-defretted (I presume) Yamaha BB200 P-bass copy and not
    expensive so I don't mind experimenting on it. It is actually a delight
    to play: seems well set up, with a low action and good balance.  I had
    a look at old notes and learned a few things but I would be grateful for
    any tips about fretless basses. Such as:

    1. My top priority question: The strings are roundwound. Should I
    change to flatwound quickly i.e. before playing any more?  Do roundound
    give a better sound? The roundwound ones wear down the fingerboard
    I know, but are we talking about a matter of hours, days, or weeks
    before this wear is noticeable?

    2. Fingerboard maintenance. I have read discussions about
    epoxy resin and so on. How often do you need to varnish or otherwise
    look after the fretboard? Anything to do to reduce fingerboard wear?

    3. Learning to play the thing. It is difficult to hit the notes right
    without looking. I tried to play along with a few jazz numbers today
    (numbers I can play easily on my fretted bass) and the result was not
    good. Any practice routines? Or fretless books? Playing with your eyes
    shut seems a good idea.

    4. What sort of material is it particularly well suited to and perhaps
    more important, not suited to (I realise this is to some extent a
    matter of personal taste). I guess that it would be good for jazz and
    latin stuff and not for blues and rock or slapping in most cases but I
    would appreciate some opinions.

    5. Any particular effects to aim for? It makes a very nice distinctive
    buzz against the fretboard when I pluck the strings hard. Vibrato? Any
    others?

    6. Any other tips. Thanks.


    Regards

    John
    

    I haven't played much fretless electric, but I vote to 
    keep the round wounds, don't treat the fingerboard, and
    start by trying to get it in tune in first position, 
    either using 1-2-4 or 1-2-3-4 for the half steps, depending
    on how big your hand is.  
    
    Dave
    

    
    	I was the prior owner of the infamous fretless bass that Miguel
    	tried to sell a gazillion times.  The only thing that I can
    	comment on concerns your intonation question.  What helped me
    	the most was making sure my fingers were at a 90 degree angle
    	to the fretboard.  If your fingers are at an angle, the notes
    	are progressively flatter / sharper.
    
    	Play fifths and octaves and pay attention to the angles.
    
    	Also, mine had frets that were filed down so the frets remained
    	as markers.
    
    	Tom
    
    

    I use roundwounds on my fretless. I tried flats and halfwounds, but
    they just didn't sound as good. I use no extra special care other
    than making sure the guitar doesn't fall down on it's neck so the
    strings dent the fretboard. After playing it for (for and on) 2 - 3
    years there is no major wear. At least nothing to get crazy about.
    
    My 2 cents.
    
    	Fred

    I think you can play anything you want to on it.  I used to play rock
    and blues with a guy that played a fretless Fender Jazz and it worked
    fine in that context.  He didn't really do much with it's
    "fretlessness" though.
    
    Greg

   I've got a cheapie fretless, too (a Hohner, who make very good guitars for
   the money, as far as I'm concerned) with the phenolic fingerboard, and I
   use roundwounds.  Even though that material is supposed to be heavy duty in
   its own right (some sort of epoxy/resin stuff) I've had to sand down the
   board a couple of times over the years to get the grooves out of it.
   It's worth it to me though, as I agree that half rounds, and especially
   flatwounds, sound dead.  I also don't use the fretless as much as I used
   to, so it's no longer a concern at all...

   Putting an epoxy coating on the board will certainly make it last longer,
   but you'll lose some of the "woodyness" of the tone.  Jaco was the one that
   popularized this method.  With constant use you'll still have to renew the
   epoxy every few years or so.

   I'd say just play it as is, especially for the short term.  You won't hurt
   the board in the forseeable future.  And you can always sand the wood if it
   becomes a problem.  Then think about replacing the board or neck in the
   future, as necks are relatively cheap.  Or replace the whole instrument
   when it's time to trade up.  (Oh, how I wish I had the money to buy Brian's
   B.C. Rich fretless... <groan> <groan>)

   For regular maintenance, if it's really dry where you are, consider *very
   lightly* oiling the board with woodwind bore oil maybe once every 3 years
   or so.  Be sure to let it soak in well - at least overnight - then
   thoroughly wipe it off with a cloth.  Finger oils should take care of the
   rest.

   As for techinque, as was mentioned previously make sure you're fingers are
   perpendicular to the board at all times.  Intonation just takes practice to
   get right.  You can't be sloppy on a fretless.  :-)  Actually, you can:
   that's part of the charm of the sound.  I read a good tip recently for
   basses with fret lines:  Tune the bass so the true note sounds when you
   finger slightly behind the line, as it would if it had frets.  That way the
   lines don't throw you off.

   After all this talk it sounds like it's time to go dust my fretless off...

   -- Sam
   

>   I read a good tip recently for
>   basses with fret lines:  Tune the bass so the true note sounds when you
>   finger slightly behind the line, as it would if it had frets.  That way the
>   lines don't throw you off.              
    
    ...and never play an open string!

    actually, Greg's reply does suggest something I've observed on
    fretless.  Open string notes in your lines are very helpful
    in spot checking your intonation; you'll probably find yourself
    using them a lot more than you would on fretted.  I know for
    me the tendency is to drift sharp; I've heard this from a lot
    of other bass players too.  My theory is that slightly sharping
    the note gives that pleasing vocal sound and you tend to want
    to do it, but the "errors" are cumulative.  It's scary how far
    off you can end up when you finally hit an open string again.
    
    An exercise I've found useful in getting my intontation together
    on fretless is to try to make it sound like a fretted bass. 
    Concentrate on hitting notes exactly and consistently; make a game
    of it by trying to fool yourself into thinking your playing a fretted.
    I find after a few days of doing this, my control and intonation
    are much improved AND I can now gliss and buzz and play with the
    notes without losing my sense of where I am in relation to true pitch.
    
    /rick

    Did Jaco really epoxy his fingerboard?
    
    Just curious, 
    
    Dave
    

    Yeah, Jaco really did epoxy his fingerboards.
    
    For me, I'm just lucky if I hit ANY of the notes with the correct
    intonation.  I'll keep my frets any day!  I have enough trouble 
    with those big giant strings when I try to play bass...
    
    Greg

    Jaco was a big advocate of Petit's Poly-Poxy; this is supposedly
    heavy duty marine grade stuff.  Make sure the can you get is pre-CBS :-)
    
    I forget if this was mentioned before but to get the most "growl"
    out of your fretless, set up for minimum neck relief and low action.
    

The one time I played a fretless base I was told to only use a classical
vibrato technique. Any lateral movement of the strings wears the fingerboard
too much.

		Ian G.

    Thanks to all for the very helpful replies.
    
    Regards
    
    John