Conference napalm::guitar

    Pat, I've got some books you can borrow that cover different types
    of scales and stuff.  You've seen them (or others like them) advertised
    in Guitar rags all over the place.
    
    My best tip ?  find your favorite scale, close your eyes, and let
    it RIP !
    
    jc

    I don't have any short-cuts for you, and maybe someone else does. I
    never took lessons on guitar, so there may be easier ways to learn that
    I am not aware of. I did know music theory before I learned guitar, but
    it didn't really help that much in this process.
    
    My approach:
    
    Basically, just listen and copy what you hear. Over and over. Until you
    feel like you are dying. In other words, pick a solo from a song that
    you like, and one that doesn't sound too difficult. Then take it apart
    piece by piece and work on every riff until you can duplicate the sound
    of each riff. Then start trying to hang the riffs together. Do this for
    several days, or until you or someone else in hearing distance starts
    to go crazy, whichever comes first. Don't worry if you can't exactly
    duplicate what you have heard. You can go on to other songs, and you
    can learn something new from each one. But keep going back to ones you
    have learned already and try to improve on them as you are learning
    other ones.
    
    After doing this for several years I came to the realization that the
    same things could be played in different positions on the neck, and
    that there were often advantages to doing this, in terms of getting
    certain tones, ease of movement, etc. I also figured out by watching
    people (that can help a lot, too) that there were "tricks" like
    hammering, pulling off, flailing, etc., that made it possible to do
    things that otherwise seemed impossible, even for the Gods.
    
    Once you have enough of this under your belt, improvising your own
    solos will start to come naturally. It's like, you've learned to speak
    in a language, and now you can express your own thoughts. Personally, I
    think it's difficult to reach this level without starting by imitating.
    I'm sure having a good teacher could help to accelerate the process,
    but I don't think there is any substitute for the time and hard work it
    takes to get there.
    
    This is not meant to be discouraging. I have enjoyed playing guitar
    every step of the way, and even when I could only play one-note solos I
    would go out and do the best I could. Just don't expect to go out and
    sound like a virtuoso from day one. They say that the guitar is one of
    the easiest instruments to learn, and one of the most difficult to
    master.
    
    - Ram

    Hi Pat, we haven't met yet, but my name is Lavatka Manmatka, and
    I come from the country of Kamchatka. Ironically, I happen to live
    in Greenville, S.C. just like you, and I too have heard of the Great
    virtuoso of the fretboards, Steve "bulldawg" Dandrea, the infamous
    white bluesman; he's a legend in his own mind.  8^)
    
    Anyway, you were asking about starting to learn to improvise or
    copy on leads. The reply #2 is excellent advice, and is how I started.
    I learned the Minor Pentatonic scale in every position, and broke
    out from there. I also learned by ear or a from friend, my favorite solos,
    but made sure I "understood" how they fit into positions that I
    knew, so I could use this new solo as a basis for improvising in
    other keys.  I copied Clapton stuff, Tom Johnston stuff, and Allman
    stuff, and B.B. king stuff, learned songs by them, tried to copy
    their leads as close as possible, and what has evolved is MY stuff.
    The bottom line is, for basic rock/blues there are'nt that many
    different lixx/chops.  There's a million different flavors,styles,
    tones, and sounds of basically the same stuff. 
    
    Anyway the lesson is the same as #2, learn some riffs by copying,
    from books, practice, practice, practice, and ask your instructor,
    to show you a simple starter minor pentatonic solo that you can
    expand on.  I have heard that he is a most benevolent Master Yoda,
    Obywahn, kind of guy.......|8^}
                                                       
    Sincerely,
    Whatever_I_said_my_name_was_in_paragraph_one.....
    

	Some simple advice for starting to figure out what notes to
	play in a solo. I assume that you know how to play chords.
	If you know what notes that you are playing, for example:

		     E
		===========
		| | | * | |
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		| * * | | |
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		| | | | | |
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		| | | | | |

	You can play any of the notes that are in the chord (the 3 strings
	that you are holding down, as well as the open strings). In the
	above example, you'll find that the 'E' note occurs 3 times, but
	the other notes are 'B' (on the A and B strings) and 'G#' 
	(on the G string). This may not sound like a lot to get you started,
	however, once you know what notes relate to the chord that you 
	are playing, you can use any of those notes as the basis of your
	solo. The E chord is a simple example. Minors, Majors, Dim etc
	give you new perspective, and different combinations of notes
	that will work. This sounds all too simple, however when you
	try to play a somewhat bizzare solo (for example, Bodesattva 
	- Steely Dan), following the progression with notes that will
	work based on the chords will sound substantially better than
	trying some well defined and well practiced pattern/scale.

	The best advise I was ever given about soloing was to learn how
	to play around the chord being used. It made me find all of the
	notes that would work & where the octave lower/upper notes
	were relative to the actual positions. Established patterns
	are often of limited use when the progression does not match
	the expectations of the chord progression/structure.

	I'm not much into the technical terms for the different scales
	and relationships, but I'm certain that I use components of
	them frequently.

	If you want to think in terms of odd progressions and soloing,
	listen to some Jazz or John Mcglaughlin (spelling??) & the
	Mahavishnu Orchestra (The album that comes to mind here is
	Birds of Fire). You'll see that established R&R patterns have very
	little to offer this style of music. If you can find your
	way around the chords that you are playing, you'll find that you
	can play more styles of music & potentially figure out how
	to play some very interesting solos. The best soloists (no matter
	what style of music) seem to be able to maintain consistancy
	no matter what is thrown at them.

							Jens
	

    re: .2
    
    What is flailing?
    
    								Marc

    
    	You have to play the blues and pay your dues first. Don't be
    in a rush.

    Blow off the blues and start shedding the 24 Paganini violin caprices
    instead!!!

    
    Hey, if you'd like some interesting advice, try reading some of the 
    entries under 1407, if you haven't already...  Frankly, unless you're
    getting into other types of music such as classical or jazz, there
    really isn't much else.   I will admit that one of the best advice
    I was told was "Don't let your right hand know what your left hand
    is doing and vice versa"....  Too many player I know of, including
    myself, neglect the right hand when thinking of the soloing technique.
    
    One of my favorite tricks, because I am too lazy to move my left hand
    up the frets that quick, is pick harmonics...  I love the tone of it
    when thrown in once in a while with a wild bend then followed by 
    brisk vibrato...
    
    Just remember one thing, when you're on the spot, f**k techniqe, scales
    and worrying about people that are listening, JUST GO FOR IT AND LET
    IT COME OUT OF YOUR HEART AND SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    ROCK ON!!!
    						J.
    

    First rule of playing b*tchin' leads... Get a water cooled fret
    board.
    
    ;^)

    
    
    
    	Water cooled??  I like it....  Well, ummmm... I'm a novice and the
    advice that's helped me is:
    
    	Play scales, practice scales, learn the fret board
    	
    	Play around the chords... this always works and it's usually
    	something new...
    
    	Develop the right hand... I never thought that it would happen
    	but my left is slightly faster than my right now and it's very 
     	frustrating.   I'm still pretty slow but I'm getting more technical
     	as a result of this great advice.
    
    
    
                                OTHER NEWS
    
    
    
    		Hey... how is Keith going to play guitar tonight at 9:00
    when the temps will be in the forties???   Do they have heaters or
    something???
    
    
    
    Steve

    I think it would be cool to shred some Sor, alot like the Paganinni.
    I should also like think don't do anything unless it's fun, or you
    might get sick and quit. 
    Andy who quit for 6 years after 2 hours of classical excersizes
    a day for 4 years . But I still play better having done it.

    I gotta agree with Steve (Greeve?)...
    
    Play around the chords.  Thats all you need to express some real
    soleful sounds...and I think thats what our pal Pat is lookin' for.
    leave the modes and guff to the speedsters, trixters and pros.
    
    jc

		| | | | | |
		*-*-*-*-*-*  V
		| * | | | | 
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		| * * * | |
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		* | | | * * 
		+-+-+-+-+-+ VIII
		| | | | | |


	These are the notes for jamming around a rock tune in A. You
	can create complete solos using only these notes. In fact, I
	think you can state that until you can create a solo without
	moving out of this position, you don't know how to solo.

	A good start? Try making a solo with one note. Vary just the
	rhythym. Listen to "Sympathy for the Devil" Richards starts
	his whole solo with about 5 notes - all the same pitch
	and makes the rhythym the thing.

	Next: Try doing a solo with two notes. After that, you can
	try things like climbing the ladder: Running up from the A
	on the low E string to the C on the high E string. Just
	play them all in order, but vary the time to make it
	interesting, or repeat a couple of them.


	I know you want a solo with a trillion notes, but really,
	if you can make simple stuff sound great, you're on your way. 

RE: .4


>	Mahavishnu Orchestra (The album that comes to mind here is
>	Birds of Fire). You'll see that established R&R patterns have very
>	little to offer this style of music.

	Check out the Mahavishnu Live album (I think its called Live Dream).
	At the absolute peak of his jam, McLaughlin breaks into Sunshine
	of Your Love. It's a fusion orgasm. 
	

>                      <<< Note 1498.14 by DUGGAN::GREEN >>>
>                 -< Little to offer maybe, but they do fit in >-
>	Check out the Mahavishnu Live album (I think its called Live Dream).
>	At the absolute peak of his jam, McLaughlin breaks into Sunshine
>	of Your Love. It's a fusion orgasm. 
	
	I'll agree that they work sometimes, but the point is that you can't
	casually toss in a simple blues lick over top of lots of musical
	styles (Try this with Beethoven sometime if you want another
	reference of styles). 'Sunshine of your Love' is a more traditional
	progression (relative to R&R) and McLaughlin can really wail.
	The thought about playing around the chord was more to suggest a
	way to find your way thru a solo no matter what the progression
	was, rather than to say 'try this, it always works for me'. Not
	everyone is into a single style of music, or wants to play only
	specific types of solo's. I play lots of things & I enjoy odd 
	progressions that make me extend my skill set. I don't try to play
	fast, as I really don't have that much interest in speed, I'd
	rather try for the quality of the solo. It's next to impossible
	to say what anyones inspiration is for a given solo, but knowing
	the mechanics can't hurt.

							Jens

<	I'll agree that they work sometimes, but the point is that you can't
<	casually toss in a simple blues lick over top of lots of musical
<	styles (Try this with Beethoven sometime if you want another
    
    	Right.  You can't just throw out a lick (actually, you can, and
    	how bad it sounds is a valuable lesson too).
    	Learn to solo now, hmmm, there ain't no fairy godmother of guitar
    	that's going to touch you with a magic wand and suddenly make you
    	Leo Kottke.  Segovia said "Start with some talent, then work and
    	work and work." - paraphrased.
    	Instead of attempting to learn to improvise first I suggest to 
    	my students that they master some simple phrases in the context of
    	a particular song.  An example:  take the
    	'Flatpickers Fake Book', open to the tune 'Colored Aristocricy'
    	(any tune will do, just something with simple changes, and a 
    	fairly simple melody).  Master the melody, memorize it, play
    	it until you can play it cold (i.e. no errors when you first
    	pick up the instrument).  Notice that some phrases repeat,
    	try pulling those out and using them in another song (after
    	stating the melody).
    	A common error that young players make is 'jamming' through the
    	entire piece without ever stating the melody first.  This is why
    	some players get boring so quickly.  Just as the Arban method
    	(for trumpet) provided exercises in the form 'theme and
    	variations',  an interesting player will  utilize the same tatics
    	in arranging a piece.  State the theme, then provide variations
    	that reflect the theme - not just licks strung together.
    	Make your playing say something - give it a direction, don't just
    	string a bunch of licks together.
    	Always carry two flatpicks in case you lose one.
    	
    

    
    
    RE: .10...Develop right hand...
    
    Hey, I'm glad you've noticed what I wrote about right hand training (I
    paid $13/hr for that advice).
    
    Now, that I've had some time to soak that advice in, my rhythm had has
    been un-imprisoned.  I know some guys that only use down strokes when 
    playing rhythm, why????  There are so many things that your right hand
    can do to make your solo sound soulful; pick & middle finger picking 
    (ala Mark Nopfler), upstroke w/2 string bends (ala "Rock Me"),
    alternate finger picking ("Dust In The Wind", "Dee" by Randy Rhoads)
    and using different pick angles to get different attack & tone,
    and many, many others all contribute to being a good rounded player.
    
    One thing that helped me alot was I bought a guitar w/T-bar.  When I 
    started using it, I couldn't rest my hand on the bridge like I used
    to, and I kept changing position of my hand everytime I used the bar.
    It helped to get my right hand to be more free and in the long run,
    get better as a player.
    
    Another thing about soloing is that personally, I only know 3 or 4
    guitar solos from other people's songs note for note, but I can play 
    solo over chord progressions.  Weird?  I think it's an advantage since
    I rarely sound like someone else...
					Rock on!!!!!!
    						J.
                                                                       

    I have recently made the dioscovery I think the person in the base
    note is seeking!!
    
    For starters...
    
    Learn the Am pentatonic up and down the fret board as suggested
    earlier.
    
    THEN... lay down one side of a C90 with 45 minutes of C Am F G backing
    (well 10 mins will do!). Then, try soloing to it using the Am
    pentatonic. I'm sure you will be amazed at how good you sound! 
    
    From there you can go onto blues etc.

    Richard

    Here's some more good advise that I got from some real speedsters...
    When you practice your scales and such, watch your left hand.  Work
    on moving your fingers as little as possible.  Any time you pick
    up a finger higher than necessary, your slowing yourself down.
    
    The really fast guize hardly move their fingers at all.
    
    jc (Sage advise from a slow-poke) ;^)

I feel that I am in the same boat as the base note.  I had my first lesson
last week.  This week's assignment is to play the major scale in all keys, 
learn the Em pentatonic scales in positions up through the 12th fret and
record the following progression on tape

	Em	D	C	D
	/   /   /   /   /   /   /   /

in preparation for using the Em scale for playing lead over this.  The tune is 
All Along the Watchtower.  I played for a while, but I get the feeling that a
small amount of theory is going to go a long way.

    
    
    
    
    	YO.... .13???  Was there a reason for leaving out the flat 5 in
    the higher octave in your scale?  Just curious.
    
    Steve

RE: .21

The flat five (D#) being referred to is shown as # below:
I guess I left it out for simplicity. Mostly, (for
"starting simple" anyways), it's just a grace note for passing between
the D and E. It could certainly be listed there, but I think to
really use this one on the G string, you're going to be moving
out of the position. And the point of the exercise is to stay in position.
But, if you can work it in, it certainly fits. It's just harder to work this
one into a phrase, that's all. 

		| | | | | |
		*-*-*-*-*-*  V
		| * | | | | 
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		| * * * | |
		+-+-+-+-+-+
		* | | # * * 
		+-+-+-+-+-+ VIII
		| | | | | |

    re: .2
    
    What is flailing?
    
    								Marc
    

    I love that scale/pattern.  That was my first "pattern", and I probably
    use it more today than any other...
    
    ;^)

            <<< Note 1498.23 by WACHU2::HERTZBERG "My poor Krell" >>>
    >                          -< I'll ask again >-
    >
    >re: .2
    >    
    >What is flailing?
    >    
    >								Marc
    
    
    This is your second try, so I guess I owe you a response (I thought
    maybe if I ignored you long enough you might go away). I don't really
    know what "flailing" is. In the band I used to be in it was used
    jokingly to refer to wild and crazy soloing of any sort. I use it
    myself to refer to the technique of playing multiple notes with the
    left hand without picking them with the right. That is, holding a fixed
    chord (most often just a barre) with the index finger, and pulling and
    hammering with the other fingers, only occasionally picking any notes
    with the right hand. This is often done by "heavy metal speed demons".
    I do it when I have because I can't pick fast enough to play some riff,
    but I'm no master of it. I've seen people (much younger than I) play
    lead almost exclusively this way. It requires developing a tremendous
    amount of strength in your left hand to keep it up for extended
    periods. Maybe there's a better name for this technique -- anyone?
    
    - Ram

    Thanks, Ram.  I guess I "flail" on occasion myself.  Helps to
    have the amp turned up real high to go along with that strong left
    hand!
    
    								Marc

    
    
    
    
    	Thanks for the flat 5 explanation.. helpful.
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    
    I must agree to a point that copying is a real good place to start.  It
    develops your ear.  At first, it can be frustrating cuz certain things 
    inside a solo, (small hooks) seem to fly by pretty fast sometimes.
    
    If you're trying to copy something, and feel your aggravation level
    rise, walk away from that song, or just put the axe down for an hour or
    so.  Pick it up later when the aggravation has worn off.  It'll come,
    in time.
    
    And you'd be surprised at the things you'll learn by picking solos apart,
    note for note...  The one caution that I have there is to not
    become a copy-cat so to speak.  
    
    (The next paragraph probably wont help you much in the early stages,so
    (don't worry about these words now, but keep them in the back of your
    (head for later, when you've gotten some confidence, and feel like you
    (can put down on the fret board what was in your head an instant
    (before. but just to add to the discussion, and this may have already
    (been said, I must confess I didn't read all 27 replies.
    
    Improvising is basically letting your feelings get into the playing.
    
    Copying solos will help your dexterity, but it wont dramtically help
    your ability to improvise (and I think thats really what soling is all
    about, feel something, or hear it in your head, and just as quickly as
    it came to the back of your head, you fluently play it..)
    
    One other suggestion is don't press it.  let it come.  Speed is a great
    asset to have as a soloist, but it's not a neccesity.  Some great
    guitar players are not all that fast (BB King, Leslie West both come
    right to mind) Guys like this just lay it down and let it pour out.
    
    

    To add to what Ray said...
    
    be careful when you sit down in your room at night trying to learn
    that favorite solo by playing it OVER and OVER and OVER again on
    the cassette player.  When you're ready to go to sleep, you'll find
    it fruitless to do so, while that same solo keeps playing over and over
    again in your head.
    
    It used to drive me crazy!!!
    
    cheers/mike

    I'm reminded of something I once read about Ravi Shankar regarding
    playing with "feeling". He said that his teacher made him spend some
    huge number of years (I don't remember the exact number, but it was at
    least 7, maybe as much as 17) working only on technique. That is, he
    was required to do things the "classical" way, with none of his own
    interpretation, even though Indian music is mainly improvisational. He
    felt at the time this was very inhibiting, and was really impatient to
    break out. But when his teacher finally did allow him to express
    himself, he realized how much better he was able to do it because he
    had all the tools at his disposal.
    
    I think this is a good example of why it's important not to feel from
    day one that you have to "be yourself". I've heard a lot of people who
    play in their own original style, and most of them bore the hell out of
    me - not because they are not original and good at what they do, but
    because they have such limited vocabularies. I'm not saying that it
    isn't important to learn to improvise from early on, or that everyone
    should wait 17 years to start expressing themselves -- but I don't feel
    it should be a substitute for the hard work of learning the basics from
    those who went before.
    
    - Ram

    Ram,
    
    Your absolutely right...
    
    "How can you play the bues if you don't feel blue..."
    
    Did I just say that ?
    
    I think thats why I like speed metal so much.  I like to play when
    I'm p*ssed off;  I play my best stuff when I'm p*ssed off.  The
    feeling is where it comes from.
    
    jc

    
    re. .30
    
    Well said, Ram!!! After 14 years of guitar playing (10 with bands),
    I've finally begun serious guitar study. The reason for this, is
    that I love Jazz and Jazz guitar very much and decided that it was
    time I took on the challenge of playing it. To do this, the study
    of music theory is essential. When I pick up a guitar now, it's
    to seriously study the instrument. I spent 7 seven years in a very
    good blues/r&b band playing over the same few changes (in every
    key). That was a valuable experience, but I do feel like I've 
    lost some time.
    
    I just accept the fact that learning Jazz  will take me a long time,
    but I've made the commitment. I'll need to learn and understand
    harmony/melody before I even try to start improvisation.
    
    Phil
    
    

Well, I disagree with most of the replies so far.  To solo, you gotta play
scales.  All this "listen to the records", to me, is just a hunt and peck
method of playing scales.  After months or years of pecking, you finally
figure out that you are just playing the notes of the scales.  That's how
I started and made limited progress over the years.  Even when I found
something, I never knew "why".  It wasn't until I took lessons with a
teacher (Mitch Chakour) who stressed scales and modes.

And I finally realized that "do a deer, a female deer" is REALLY the
SOUND OF MUSIC !!!!

So, if I was a beginner now, I would learn DO-RE-MI-FA-SO-LA-TI-DO in a few
different positions.  Hey, do-mi-so is the 1-3-5 of a major chord.  (have
patience, it gets deeper ;^)  From here on, DO thru DO will be refered to
as 1 thru 8, ok?

Do you have a keyboard that plays auto bass/chords/drums ??  My cheap Yamaha
has really helped my soloing.  I just set that sucker and it backs me up all
night!!  Even a cheap one (if it has a stereo out) can sound ok thru your
stereo.  If not, replace the following with "record a chord on tape".

Get the keyboard going SLOW in a C major chord.  The 1 thru 8 notes you'll
use will be the C major scale.  C D E F G A B C.   Play the notes slowly,
starting with 1 thru 8, then 8 down to 1, eventually to any order.  Some
patterns could be 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5, 4-5-6, etc... or 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, etc..

You'll suddenly "feel" the proper notes to resolve to (the 1-3-5).  Bend a
few, you'll eventually "feel" those also (the 2 and the 5, for example).

Next, set the keys for D Minor.  Play the SAME C Major scale.  You'll eventually
"feel" that the 1-3-5 aren't the proper notes to resolve to.  You will find that
it's the 2-4-5 of the C scale.  These are the notes of a D minor chord (D-F-A).

Next, set the keys for an E Minor chord.  Play the SAME C Major scale.  You'll
once again "feel" the resolution notes (3-5-7 or E-G-B).  Hey, guess what?
This is the infamous phrygian mode a-la Al DiMeola!!!

Keep going on this way.  Technically, you are playing the C major scale from
1 to 8 in C major, from 2 to 9 in D minor, from 3 to 10 in E minor, etc...

Fyi, it will be...

	 1    2    3    4   5   6    7     8
	 do   re   me   fa  so  la   te    do
	Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj G7 Amin Bdim7 Cmaj

For me, the BIGGEST discovery was hearing what the easy C major scale sounded
like over G7.  (resolve on 5-7-2-4).  

So, hit that "polka" button and go for it!!!  BUT START SLOW!!!

Tom

    
    	flailing - i've heard the term used to describe a type of picking
    that i often use where i strike the string on the downstroke using my
    finger nail(s). Gives a very unique sound - adds a real bite to acoustic
    solo's.  Very good for doing bluesy type acoustic solo's - never really
    tried it in electric mode (may try tonight though!)
    
    	bob
    
    

    Actually, I think that's frailing. It was used on banjo around the
    turn of the century, and probably earlier. Perhaos someone older
    than I can tell us. (^; Doubtless flailing could produce the sdame
    sort of tone, but it sounds a lot more out of control.
    
    flail: to beat or thrash about with or as if with a flail.
    
    Informative, these dictionaries, eh? Self reference is wonderful.

    Gee, I'm not sure that I'm older than you, (how old IS old), but
    I know where you can hear some frailing banjo players to get an
    indication of the style:
    
    	Grandpa Jones - Dave (somebody, that guy that was the host
    	for Fire on the Mountain), Doc Watson (his version of Little
    	Sadie on the Home Again album (Vanguard)).
    
    	Frailing is similar to the banjo style called drop thumb -
    basically they play a constant rhythm and some melody with the 
    thumb while filling in with the index and middle fingers.  When
    well done it's pleasant, although not nearly as powerful as
    the three-finger style.
    

    
    
    
    	I'm turnin' 40 the day after Christmas this year, and it feels like
    the end of the world to me..... is THAT old??? <grin>

re: .36

Actually, drop thumb is just a variation of frailing.  Clawhammer is 
another name for frailing.  The Grandpa Jones style is the simplest example 
of frailing.  He uses the back side of the middle and/or index finger to 
hit one to four strings on the downbeat, then plucks the fifth string 
("thumb string") with the thumb on every other upbeat.  It's more rhythmic 
than melodic.  "Drop thumb" means that the thumb drops down to other strings, 
as needed, to play more melodically.  

Some players play an entirely melodic style, playing fiddle tunes note for 
note, and rarely hitting a chord.  

I'm not sure about this, but I think Doc Watson plays a two-finger picking 
style rather than true frailing.  This was the predecessor to modern 
three-finger bluegrass playing.  On an open-back banjo played without 
fingerpicks, it can sound like frailing.  

Bob_who_frails_and_flails

    
    	This sounds a lot like the Flamenco technique called Resquado(sp?).
    This uses a thumb pick for base "punctuation" followed by sequentially
    (ring>mid>index) struming downward with the backs of the nails.
    
    	You then have to click your heels & work the castenettes with your
    teeth while using the headstock of the guitar to break open the toy
    donkey(burro?)......no no no no no......just kidding about the last
    bit...I'm just going for some therapy :-)
    
    Cheers 
    
    		Pete.

Sort of almost kinda similar to rasguado.  Rasguado (I've seen it spelled 
three different ways) involves flipping the fingers out one at a time so as to 
make a rolling, continuous chord.  For clawhammer banjo, you usually hit the 
strings with just one fingernail, or with two that hit at the same time.

It's like this:   Plunk-plunka-plunk-plunka-plunk.  Got it?

Bob (I'll be at PKO next week.  Bring me a banjo and I'll demonstrate. :^) )

    
    If you do nothing else, Just learn the solo from Heartbreaker from Led 
    Zep's 2nd album. That solo has all the "important riffs" in it.
    :-)
    
    Then learn all the riffs from Tomorrows Story Not The Same and The
    Sunlit Path of the album Between Nothingness and Eternity by The
    Mahavishnu Orchestra. 
    
    Try to pick up some theory while doing the above as well as taking
    the advice of of #33 if you have a keyboard. 

    
    
    Jay who_someday_may_be_able_to_actually_play_the_above_music
    
    

    
    I too am starting to noodle around with soloing (I really want to
    be Dave Gilmour) and I decided that although speed isn't everything
    *all* solo's I have heard have some fast (to me) passages. Ok what's
    the point of this note......I am trying to build up my speed and
    I am doing fairly well but I fell to get to the speed I want I am
    going to have to be pretty good at pull offs.....and I ain't.
    
    Does anyone have any excercises for pull-offs that they could share
    something that actually sounds musical would be a bonus as opposed
    to just 4 finger repetition. Maybe be some triplet type stuff.
    
    Also any pointers to method would be warmly receieved.
    
    J. (Who at the moment nearly cries when listening to the solo in
    Aqualung......I have a live version)

    
    Sit down with a metronome, set it to an excruciatingly slow pace, 
    practice a given passage for 15 min or so.  Turn up the metronome 
    a notch, practice the same passage again for 15 min or so.  Repeat
    until you puke!  
    
    J.

A quick note,

	Before all the GIT's and clones started out, I studied at the Chicago 
Conservatory Of Music, and the technique to increase your speed was as follows;

Play this exercise starting at the first fret as this will also increase your
reach across the fretboard.

Play the finger exercises with a down/up stroke, in time, striking each note
as clean and as hard as the first.

Move up from the  Low E to the High E.

The symbols stand for finger to use and fret.

1 2 3 4
2 3 4 1
3 4 1 2
4 1 2 3
1 3 2 4
1 4 2 3

Make up your own permutations using just the first four frets and build your 
speed as your coordination gets better.

Hope it helps,

Otha

    	Help!  I can't seem to get out of second gear with major 
    	scales.  I bend the wrong notes, I can't seem to get the 
    	timing or phrasing, etc.  I'm really stinking up the place!  
    	Now, if I'm playing along with a latin or jazz type of deal,
    	it's not as bad - don't ask me why.  I'm clueless when it 
    	comes to r n r soloing.  
    

    A suggestion from the `cover' king ...
    
    Find a solo that you like a lot - nothing hyper fancy or fast, just a
    good starting point.  Then, learn it note for note.  Scales are a nice
    framework to build solos from, but that's it ... BUILD ON THEM.
    
    Scary 

        What Scary said.   Nice  one  is Clapton's "Wonderful Tonight".
        It's in G and the  lead  opens  on the second string, 10th fret
        with a full bend - take it from there.
        

    Odie,
    
    Try learning the solo from Free's "All Right Now"...it's clean, slow,
    easy and major pentatonic....uses several octaves/positions...and I'm
    sure Scary knows it!!
    
    Steve 

    The lead to `Two Tickets To Paradise' by Eddie Money is a sweet one
    too.
    
    Scary

    
    	Hi all,
    
    	The note a couple back refering to the major scale finally got me
    	round to asking a question.....I can solo (badly) in any key using
    	the minor pentatonic (or the blues) but if I try and solo using 
    	the major scale...or minor scale...or diminished...or basically
    	any scale *other* than the pentatonic I can never seem to find
    	any notes I can bend and get them to sound right. What gives?
    	My bends are pretty accurate (that comes from trying to learn
    	Gilmour solo's) but used in context with a major/minor scale
    	they always sound cat (rubbish). However staccato single note	
    	runs up down and around the scale sound ok...so what do I need
    	to devote some time to practicing???
    
    
    	J

    Sounds like maybe you need to be sure your bends end on a scale tone. 
    
    For instance if it's a half step (one fret) to the next scale tone and
    a whole step (2 frets) to the one beyond that, you can't do a whole
    step bend and have it sound right, you'd have to do a half step or a
    step and a half bend for it to fit.
    
    Greg

re: soloing to major keys

I don't know if this has been said before in this note (and I'm too
lazy to check).

Something to get you started on major key solos...

If you've got all your minor pentatonic licks off to a tee, and you
want to solo to a major key, try playing your same licks in the relative
minor of the major key you're in.

I think that probably needs an example..!
e.g.
If you want to solo in Cmaj, try playing your usual A minor licks, e.g.
at the fifth position. 

I think you'll find that a lot of them fit quite well. Try not to sound
too C&W (eeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaawwwwww!).

*DC

    
    I had that same rut.
    
    I knew all my scales (pentatonics, aeoleon, harmonic minor and some
    modes but nothing fancy) but I COULD NOT play a thing in a major key.
    Not that I ever wanted to join Heart or anything, but it was bugging
    me.
    
    Now though, I think in terms of relative majors/minors and can now play
    both without any problems, although just by looking at a typical major
    shape I still get sod all inspiration from it as its such a BORING 
    shape.
    
    -Tony

	re: various replies

	I'm not surprised about the bends being harder to perform because
	a minor pentatonic has more room for bends.  As far as using the
	relative minor scale for a major scale solo, I still want to learn
	how to apply a major scale to a major key song.  Bending is not the
	issue for me.  Timing and phrasing is my problem.  Steve, you may
	have a good idea on trying something simple and familiar like 
	"All Right Now".  I'll give it a try (hint, Jerry).

	thanks to all,
	-pat 

    Pat,
    
    One thing you may want to do to become more comfortable with the major
    scales is to remember the major scale is the same as the pentatonic
    except the pentatonic drops the 4th and 7th.  Then lay down a cool 
    rythym and jam all over it.  At that point try applying to a solo you
    know note for note which you use a pentatonic scale and a different
    part of the fret board.  
    
    BTW, if it makes you feel better I've in the same boat as you right
    now...except its more of a global what fits and what doesn't.  
    
    Mike

    Pat,
    
    once you have a handle on phrasing, there are some good chord
    progressions that lend themselves to freestyle major scale improv. 
    Have your jam buddy strum a 1-7-4 progression (chords A-G-D) for
    example (like the melody/chords to Marshall Tucker's "Can't Ya See?")
    and have at it in key of A major scale.  Most of those rock songs
    with the "southern" influence are great for major scale solos.
    
    If you listen to that particular song you'll get a feel for a which
    notes to bend and "land" on in a major scale solo.  Also, many Skynard
    and Allman Bros solos will guide you.....
    
    BTW, I'm tentatively planning to be in Greenville on Sat 12/21 to pick
    up my daughters....returning to Va on Sunday 12/22.  I'll probably have
    Sat afternoon/evening open....want me to bring the Les Paul...we could
    do a jam/lesson for old time's sake??  Sounds like fun to me....
    
    Steve

    re: -1
    
    Sorry,
    
    "Can't ya See?" is in key of D major...that chord progression should be
     D-C-G with the lead done in key of D major scale.....but the concept
    is the same....A-G-D == major lead in A, and so on.....
    
    Steve
    

    re Allmans and the major scale
    
    	The other night I said to Buck that I don't know of anyone who
    gets more mileage out of a Pentatonic Major scale than does Dicky
    Betts,... check out "Melissa", in E major. Another good one would be
    Blue Sky (Is that the right name?) but I don't know what key...
    
    							/Bill

    Umm...
    
    A chord progression of D-C-G couldn't be in the key of D, it would
    usually be in the key of G.  The C chord in the key of D would have to
    be half-diminished to fit...
    
    Greg

Nope.  Steve is correct.  It's in D Major.

Took me a looooonnnnggggg time before I realized why the  Bminor
pentatonic worked so well in a song in the key of D.  Thanks for
*that* lesson Stevo and Buck.

jc (Who now knows that the B minor scale is REALLY a D Major in this song!)

    re: .59
    
    The D-C-G progression in Marshall Tucker's "Can't Ya See?" is in key
    of D, as opposed to D-C-G in "Sweet Home Alabama" which is key of G.
    
    I don't have any musical training, so I don't technically understand
    why the progessions are basically the same, but the "homes" are
    different.  My experienced (25 years on guitar) ear tells me that the
    leads and melodies in C. Y. See is key of D and Sweet Home is G. Maybe
    Greg can explain key differential? (in laymans terms?)
    
    Steve

    RE: -1
    
    Well, if you don't have any musical training, I *highly* suggest to set
    yourself `read only' until you can come back and speak with a little
    more ammo.  8^)
    
    Scary
                                      

    I didn't think I'd need ammo to ask a question!
    
    Steve

    Well Steve-o, I still think they're both really in G...
    
    The problem is that there is no way a Cmaj chord fits in a D major
    scale (or progression).  Think about it, the D major scale doesn't even
    *have* a C in it, it's C#!
    
    If you concentrate on the D in on and you play a Dmaj based lead,
    that's a G lydian mode (also major), so it fits.  
                                                    
    Someone who knows what they're talkin about help me out here!
    
    Greg                                            

    No ammo necessary with me Steve.  Jerry's just perpetuating the old
    "you don't need to know any theory to play" debate...
    
    Greg

    I'll buy that, Greg......as I said, with no musical training, I don't
    know the official definition of "key".  My garage musician habit was
    "the key of the song :== the position the lead is played in". Lydian,
    eh.....cool!
    
    Thanks for the lesson!  BTW, Scary, did YOU know about this lydian
    thing....huh...huh?!  8^)
    
    Steve

    Oh, Greg,
    
    does this mean that a D-C-G progression in key of G is really a 5-4-1
    progression?....I called it 1-7-4 in previous note thinking that it was
    key of D and the c was the seventh note of a d7 scale......I should
    stop inventing scales and ask more questions....
    
    Steve (curiousity up!)
                 

    Who this "Lydia" everyone's talking about ?   8^)   Evidently nobody
    saw the smiley ... sheesh ...
    
    Scary

    re .67
    
    	That is actually another "possibility" for the D-C-G progression.
    
    	In my book,.. that could be either a 1-7-4 progression,.. working
    over a Blues scale in D,... OR a 5-4-1 progression working over
    a G major scale.
    
    	Either one could apply. It depends on the melody the tune has.
    
    	I am not an expert in music theory,.. nor do I play one on TV
    
    								/Bill
    
    						

    re: Steve
    
    Yeah, 5-4-1 in G was the way I was thinking of it.  Like most of these
    things you could think of them in different ways.
    
    re: Bill
    
    I still don't see how a 1-7-4 in D would fit this progression though,
    that would be D-C#m7b5-G, wouldn't it?
    
    Greg

    Thats because you are trying to treat it as D major,.. which it aint.
    
    Its more like a D minor,.. or bluse in D. In those two cases, "C" is
    in the scale as the seventh (hence the 1-7-4).
    
    							/Bill
    

    Or rather,.. as the "flat seventh",. according to my guitar prof...
    
    :-)
    
    							/Bill
    

    re: Scary.....I saw yer smiley....no offense taken!  8^)
    
    re: everyone else.....I really mean didn't to start a "progression"
    avalanche...sorry!  Thanks for all the replies, tho! 
    
    Steve

    Yeah, about that solo for `Sweet Home Alabama' ... doesn't the lead
    actually start in D, but ends up in G ?  That song always hard to solo
    in, unless you were playing it note for note (which ain't soloin',
    really ...).
    
    Scary (but I love workin' on `Can't You See'...)

    That's a tough one Scary...it "feels" like key of G to me, and I've
    used the G major pent scales for that song since '73....doesn't make it
    right, tho.  Yepper, Can't ya see is one of those tunes that begs for a
    jammin' free for all....I like to xition from major to minor pent scales
    on that one!
    
    Stevo

>    Its more like a D minor,.. or bluse in D. In those two cases, "C" is
>    in the scale as the seventh (hence the 1-7-4).
    
    If it were Dm, wouldn't it be in the key of F major?  C would then be the 
    5 tone/chord.  Or are you just applying the major scale principles to the D
    minor scale?  (i.e., C would be the 7th if you're playing in Dm, kind
    of like D Aeolian?)  You're using the same notes as F major, just have
    a different root tone.
    
    Unless you were using D Dorian or D Phrygian...
    
    Maybe I'm just not getting it...
    
    Mike

    I don't get it, either

    sheesh...this is getting complex!  Don't ya just work on it until the
    licks sound great?!  To think I missed all this when I chose to do it
    "by ear"!
    
    Just yankin yer chainz, boys....|^)
    
    Steve

    Where's Lydia when you need her ?  8^)
    
    Scary (who's got callouses on his ears too ...)

    Anyway Pat, regarding the original subject....the 1-7-4 or 5-4-1
    progressions are great for lots of mileage in major pentatonic scales.
    
    Examples again: A-G-D-A ala "all right now" play A major pent scale
    		    D-C-G-D ala "can't ya see"  play D major pent scale 
    
    Steve

    AND, let's not forget `Takin' care Of Business' ... C - Bb - F - C.
    
    ... and I'm sure there are a zillion more.
    
    
    Scary

    
    How about making it really simple and playing the Dmajor scale over
    the Dmajor chord, the Cmajor scale over the C chord, etc.....you 
    can't go wrong.......;-)
    
    guy

    Now Jerry, let's analyze this progression....C - Bb -F - C. That would
    be a Cmin7 diminished lydian or a Bb pythagorean, or is it a layla PI
    are squared melodic cluster ?  I think the lead is played in the 
    C major and or minor pent scales , and I think it's in key of C, but
    after reading all the other info, I'm not real sure anymore!!
    
    8^)
    
    I guess I'm a little sarcastic today....I really DO appreciate all the
    musical theory knowledge that I don't have.....happy turkey day to all!
    
    Steve
    
    

    re: .72
    
>    Thats because you are trying to treat it as D major,.. which it aint.
>    
>    Its more like a D minor,.. or bluse in D. In those two cases, "C" is
>    in the scale as the seventh (hence the 1-7-4).
 
    But Steve said he played a D major based lead over it, that's D major,
    isn't it?
    
    re: .83
    
>    AND, let's not forget `Takin' care Of Business' ... C - Bb - F - C.
    
    AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!  Never say that again!!!
    
    Greg (who can't STAND that song!!)

    RE: Bulldawg ...
    You lost me with the pythagorean thing - man, I was with ya.  8^)
    
    Scary

>    You lost me with the pythagorean thing - man, I was with ya.  8^)
    
    Did I open the GEOMETRY conference by mistake?! ;-)

    re greg house
    
    	Greg,.. I guess I'm wrong. 
    
    	I thought D-C-G-D could be a 1-7-4-1 progression,.. and that such
    a progression was somewhat poopular. I would sometimes play a D minor
    or D blues kind of lead over such a progression,. and to me it doesn't
    sound half bad. Maybe I'm in left field on this one. Perhaps I *should*
    be playing a D major lead to call it a 1-7-4-1,.. I dunno.
    
    	What is a 1-7-4-1 progression,.. and what works for leads over it?
    
    								/Bill
    

    >	Greg,.. I guess I'm wrong. 
    >
    >	I thought D-C-G-D could be a 1-7-4-1 progression,.. and that such
    
    The chords D-C-G are from the Key of G Major.  The "D" root (and hence,
    the C acting as b7 VII to D) imply D Mixolydian.  The progression,
    is actually 5-4-1-5 in G Maj, analyzed as D Mixo.
    
    /Bill, you remember the Mixo rap...

    My theory
    
      Whenever you see two chords together eg C then D or G then A then
    treat them as the IV and V chords.  Some songs get pretty weird
    like Leroy Brown which goes G,A,B,C,D. (so what key is that).
    
    	You can generally use the major pentatonic/minor pentatonic scales
    over most popular stuff. eg; for I IV V stuff use major pent and for 
    other stuff say ......Stray cat strut or Sultans of swing etc
    you could use the minor pentatonic (which just happens to overlay the
    major scale ).
    
    P.K.

	Mike,
    
    	So I guess there is no such thing as a song being in the key
    of X minor. I mean,. X minor always has its relative Z Major,.. so
    you dudes would never consider a song as being in the key of X Minor
    because it has the same notes as the key of Z major.
    
    	I *do* think of songs being in X minor. Is that a "bad" or "borken"
    concept? 
    
    	Its true that Z major has the same notes,.. but if you play in a
    "major" mode,.. using Z as the tonic center,. you get a completely
    different feel than if you play in a minor mode with X as the tonic
    center.
    
    	In the example, D-C-G-D,.. Buck suggests playing D mixo.. which
    I am hip on. But D mixo is also a good mode to play in over a blues
    in D scale,... which is where I get the notion (omigawd, he *is* clueless
    they all moaned)of there being two ways (as though there were only two) 
    to construct meaningful leads for this  progression D-C-G-D. The correct
    or better way depends on what the rest of the song (melody) is doing.
    
    		1) key of G major,.. play leads in G major
    		2) blues in D,.. play D minor/blues,. where C is the
    			(flat) seventh.
    
    	I don't know if there is any theoretical justification for my
    way of thinking of this,. but here's another angle.
    
    	In jazz the V minor is a common substitution or thematic chord.
    In this progression,.. there is no minor chord... but lets say
    its in the key of G major (D-C-G-D :== 5-4-1-5). So to "jazz it up" a bit,
    I might play in the V minor,. which is the D minor. This gives a
    blues/jazz feeling to an otherwise "major" progression... and also leads
    back to view number 2 of this progfression.
    
    	OK,.. I'm done. I'm ready for my lesson now Buck :-) :-)
    
    							/Bill
    

    Blairman,
    
    you should certainly know how to solo by now!  A veritable plethera of
    info has been duly dumped upon your apprentice-ness.  Study,
    grasshopper, for the world awaits your chops!
    
    Master Bulldawg-san  8^)
    

    
    
    RE .92 /Bill
    
    You forgot to mention the leads while in K9 mode ;^)
    
    Dave

 >    Whenever you see two chords together eg C then D or G then A then
 >   treat them as the IV and V chords.

    Exactly!  There is only ONE spot in the diatonic harmony where two
    MAJOR chords exist one after the another...the IV & V chords.  So,
    If you see Fmaj and Gmaj, or Amaj and Bmaj, etc., they are IV and V
    respectively. 

    Re: -1
    
    Well if I knew that before I would've given a different answer! ;-)

    Yeah Buck, only one spot in a diatonic progression, but there's no rule
    that says you can't change keys in the middle of a song so that it
    could work, right?
    
    Greg

    Well, here we go again, but basically if you had Cmaj to Dmaj, and
    were counting "C" as "1", then it would imply C Lydian (F# being the
    #4 accidental in C major), which is the 4th mode built from G major.
                               
    So either way, you can change keys, but it's gonna anyalyze out as
    something pretty logical.

Why are you guys insisting that everything has to be diatonic?
Even classical music allows accidentals :-).

The D-C-G progression in "Can't You See" is clearly in D.  Stop trying
to match the chord notes to the diatonic scale and just listen.  Now
"Sweet Home Alabama" is a more interesting case, in that it kinda sounds
harmonically ambivalent, although I'd call it the key of D as well.

Both of these songs are interesting in that neither of them contains
the dominant (V) chord of the key.  This would have been highly frowned
upon in Mozart's day, of course.

When you play pentatonic stuff over a major chord progression (a standard
blues progression, for instance) you're definitely playing notes that
aren't in the scale of the key you're in.  It's one of the things that
makes blues (and blues-based stuff like rock) interesting.

-Hal

    Dear Hal,
    
    >Why are you guys insisting that everything has to be diatonic?
    
    Because it is, in one way or another.  Every possible harmonic chord
    can be analyzed from "some" key, and working as a specific harmonic
    function (Intermodulation chord, sub-5 dom, 5 of V, etc. etc.).  Anyone
    wishing to successfullly improvise over chords has GOT to understand
    the harmony!!  Charlie Parker once said "If you don't know the chords,
    man, don't play!"
    
    >Even classical music allows accidentals :-).

    Sure, but they have to follow a strict set of harmonic rules!
    
>The D-C-G progression in "Can't You See" is clearly in D.  Stop trying
>to match the chord notes to the diatonic scale and just listen.  
    
    "D"?  D *what*?!  Ain't no c-natural in the key of D major.  Ain't
    no F# in the key of D minor!  So...   
    
    ???
    
    >Now "Sweet Home Alabama" is a more interesting case, in that it kinda
    >sounds harmonically ambivalent, although I'd call it the key of D as
    >well.
    
    It's the same harmonic situation as Can't You See.  Technically, the
    notes come from G major (look at the guitar licks, which just happen
    to fall mostly on the G maj chord).

>Both of these songs are interesting in that neither of them contains
>the dominant (V) chord of the key.  This would have been highly frowned
>upon in Mozart's day, of course.

    Triads usually don't contain an identifying "7th" degree (they wouldn't
    be triads, now would they?), but dominance is implied by the general
    harmony/"key of the moment" theory.
    
>When you play pentatonic stuff over a major chord progression (a standard
>blues progression, for instance) you're definitely playing notes that
>aren't in the scale of the key you're in.  It's one of the things that
>makes blues (and blues-based stuff like rock) interesting.

    I've made this beef (b*tch) in this conf before.  Basically, one can
    use both the major and the minor pentatonic (blues) scale over a 
    generally Major-based progression.  You gotta use care with those b3
    degrees in the minor pentatonic scale, tho (same with the b5's).  I
    like to treat them more as #9's...they tend to work better.  Also,
    I usually use those flatted notes as chromatic approach notes more
    often than note.  
    
    My ear just can't deal with hanging on a C natural over a blatently
    Major or dominant chord!!!
    
      _    /|   
      \'o.O'    
      =(___)=   Aack!!!
         U      
    
    Buck, with the melodic ear

>    My ear just can't deal with hanging on a C natural over a blatently
>    Major or dominant chord!!!
    
    This coming from the guy I heard hanging on a Eb over an A major at
    Stevie J's house when he was last in Co. Springs...
    
    ;^)

    >This coming from the guy I heard hanging on a Eb over an A major at
    >Stevie J's house when he was last in Co. Springs...
    
    #11 is an available tension on Dom 7 chords!
    

    Amaj .neq. A7, Chief.  
    
    ;^)

    It worked, didn't it?!?!?
    
    So shaddap already!
    8^)

    OK,.. Buck,,...
    
    	So now I have a new (music) theory with the following axioms:
    
    	Axiom 1) It it doesn't fit,. make it fit
    	Axiom 2) If it doesn't compute theoretically, then you need a new
    		  theory
    	Axiom 3) Feel free to switch theories when the need arises
    	Axiom 4) If someone accuses you of not using the correct theory,
    		 refer them to Axiom 2
    	Axiom 5) If it sounds good,.. play it :-)
    
    							/Bill
    
    PS :-)
    

When I see the chords D, C and G where D is the "home", I call it D 
Mixolydian.  Not D Major and not G Major.  It would have the same key 
signature as G major, but then so does E minor.  I guess I would always name 
the key by the tonal center of the mode, not by the major key with the same
notes.  Sometimes it's not clear what the tonal center is, though.  A lot
of Andean music keeps shifting between major and relative minor.  Would you
name the key of El Condor Pasa by the major part or the relative minor part?

Bob

    			L Y D I A  !!!!

Oh lydia, my encyc-lo-pidia...

Sorry.  Modes bore me.  Lets talk about my favorite one:  Pentatonic !

    Pentatonic isn't a mode.  The modes are (in order):
    
    Ionian
    Dorian
    Phrygian
    Lydian
    Mixolydian
    Aeolian
    Locrian

    Pentatonic?   
    
    "hated it!"
    
    
    Buck, who worships Mixolydian (just ask /Bill)

    re: .106
    
    That's the most logical analysis of it that I've heard.  Pleases all
    parties.
    
    gh

I take it back.  My favorite mode is:

If it 'feels' good - play it.

jc (Who'll take 'classy' licks over modes anyday)

    re:
    >    Buck, who worships Mixolydian (just ask /Bill)
    
    	yes,.. its true,.. and I have now been made to bow to the
    Mixo Gods as well...
    
    	By the way,.. they are pretty cool those Mixo Gods :-)
    
    							/Bill
    

    >	By the way,.. they are pretty cool those Mixo Gods :-)
    
    And in our next Chapter...how to spice up those cheesy blues licks
    with a dash of Mixolydian!

    re: .112           
    
>    jc (Who'll take 'classy' licks over modes anyday)
    
    You seem to imply that these two things are mutually exclusive and you
    know they're not!
    
    You say you love Marty Friedman's playing on the newest Megadeth album,
    and that you hate Dave Mustaine's, yet you say you don't like arpeggios
    and modal playing!  WTF?  That's *all* Friedman DOES!  Mustaine's yer
    pentatonic player, but you say he sucks.  
    
    You say you love Satriani and Vai, yet you'll probably never hear
    either of them play anything based out of a straight blues scale (minor
    pentatonic).  As a matter of fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to
    name any of your favorite guitar players that just use a blues scale
    in their soloing...
    
    Kind of a contridiction, isn't it?
    
    gh (who gets tired of hearing the same old tired blues licks)

No contradiction.  Friedman is classy.  *I* wouldn't know a modal lead
if it bit me on the ass.  :)  Mustaine is a slob - a fast slob, but a 
slob none the less - no class (IMHO).

Via, Satch, Hannon, Saraceno - hey if they play modes thats nice, but I
just consider 'em classy lix.  :)  I'll learn the lix (if I can), but wouldn't
know a mode if it licked me.  :)

jc (who isn't opposed to learning something if I can apply it)

>No contradiction. 
    
    Oh come on, you're constantly slammin modal playing and basically
    anything non-minor-pentatonic in here...
    
>jc (who isn't opposed to learning something if I can apply it)
    
    Learn some Randy Rhodes leads!  Woah, major cool modal action.
    
    gh

re jc:


>	 I'll learn the lix (if I can), but wouldn't know a mode if it licked 
>	  me.  :)


	Well if its willing to lick you,...I'd get to know it better.

	:-?

						/Bill

    That's always a good way to make friends.
    
    Scary

    Actually, I've had the same observation about Coop's prefs as Greg.
    
    I have a theory about this.  I think it goes something like this.
    
    The music I love the most is stuff that I find is hard for me to
    understand what's going on musically.  That's probably why I am
    so crazy about Morse.  With most guitarists, I can hear a lick
    and tell you what the notes are - not so with Morse.  I've worn
    many copies of Morse records out trying to figure out his stuff
    (thank god for CD's and "phrase repeat").
    
    I think it's the same thing with Coop - he appreciates Friedman more
    than Mustaine because Mustaine plays stuff he already knows (in a
    sense).   Friedman "challenges" his ear.
    
    Whether or not Coop should devote the time to learn modes I'll leave
    to those who determine "what musicians should do".  
    
    On the one hand, it would no doubt make him a more expressive
    player - it would incrase your musical "vocabulary".
    
    On the other hand, it could have a carrot on a stick property - i.e.
    it defines the music that you like as that which you can not play.
    
    Fortunately (or "unfortunately"?), I'm in no serious danger of being
    able to apply Morse's style - but his instructional videos are great in
    that I get the general idea even if I can't apply it.

    Okay if somone can give me some pointers I'll try again:
    
    	I must have tried a thousand times to play modally and I've never
    got anywhere.  My approach to lead playing was that years ago I
    found a book that had five blues scales in it.  I learnt them and
    then I could cover the whole fretboard.  
    
    
    	After years of playing in this scale I could hear it and new 
    what would happen when I played eg: sing a phrase and play it nearly
    note perfect at the same time while improvising.
    
    	The scale I learnt was
    
    	G Blues
    
    | 1 |  |  | 4 |
    | 1 |  |  | 4 |
    | 1 |  |3 |   |
    | 1 |  |3 |   |
    | 1 |  |3 |   |
    | 1 |  |  | 4 |
    
       If I was playing over G blues I would use this.  Then I found out
    that if I played this scale over certain other songs chord progressions
    that it would work.  eg: Using this scale starting on the F# I could
    solo to Pink Floyds time.  Or starting on the D I could solo to sultans
    of swing.  Then I saw this scale in a book
    
    | 1 |   |   | 4 |
    | 1 |   |   | 4 |
    | 1 |   | 3 | 4 |
    | 1 |   | 3 |   |
    | 1 | 2 | 3 |   |
    | 1 |   |   | 4 |     Minor Pentatonic ?
    
    And if I played this in the same position as the blues scale it was the
    same except for a couple of extra notes which sounded cool and I had
    been using anyway.
    
    So on the blues scale the root note was 1st finger sixth string 3rd
    fret (G) and the second (minor pent?) the root was 4th finger sixth
    string 6th fret.  So I could use basically the same scale for two 
    different approaches.
    
    	Then I found if you played a major scale starting on the third
    string (G) that it was basically overlayed by the minor pent scale
    which just happened to be the relative minor of the key I was playing
    in eg C maj use A minor pent ( or C blues with a couple of notes thrown
    in)  
    
    As you can see a couple of guitar/ theory lessons wouldn't have hurt
    and probably saved me a few hundred hours mucking around.  (I am having
    them now).
    
    	But the problem is I can't relate to modes as I have ingrained
    myself in the above way of thinking and I suspect that others eg:
    Coop (excuse me if I am wrong ) are probably doing the same thing.
    
    Anyone have any exercises that will help.
    
    P.K.
    

    >	The scale I learnt was G Blues
    >
    >| 1 |  |  | 4 |
    >| 1 |  |  | 4 |
    >| 1 |  |3 |   |
    >| 1 |  |3 |   |
    >| 1 |  |3 |   |
    >| 1 |  |  | 4 |
    >
    >Then I saw this scale in a book
    >
    >| 1 |   |   | 4 |
    >| 1 |   |   | 4 |
    >| 1 |   | 3 | 4 |
    >| 1 |   | 3 |   |
    >| 1 | 2 | 3 |   |
    >| 1 |   |   | 4 |     Minor Pentatonic ?
    
    No, actually, you have them reversed!!
    
    The first scale you showed is G Minor Pentatonic.  Pentatonic becuase
    it is a 5 note scale (which is what Pentatonic means).  Minor because
    the interval between the first note (Root note) and the 2nd in the
    scale is a Minor 3rd interval.
    
    The 2nd scale you drew is G Blues.  Basically, the same fingering as
    the Minor Pentatonic scale, with the addition of a Flatted 5th degree.
    The b5 is referred to as a "Blue note", hence the term "Blues scale".
    Other accidentals often used in this scale a a natural 3rd and 7th
    degree.
    
    >So on the blues scale the root note was 1st finger sixth string 3rd
    >fret (G) and the second (minor pent?) the root was 4th finger sixth
    >string 6th fret.  So I could use basically the same scale for two 
    >different approaches.
    
    That makes things a little different.  If you played the 2nd scale
    with the Root as the 4th finger on the 6th string, then you were
    playing a Major Pentatonic scale.  The accidental, which acted as a
    b5 in the (Minor) Blues scale, now acts as a b3rd to the new root.
    It's used as a passing tone, and the scale is referred to as a Major
    Pentatonic (In C, it would be C D (Eb) E G A).
    
    Scale analysis really does depend on which note you're starting from/
    using as a 'home base' for your tonality.  Major and Minor Pentatonic
    scales *are* the same notes!!!  It depends on how you use them, and
    where you start/stop from.
    

    I told you I needed lessons 8^).
    
    thanks Buck.

My trouble is - I've attempted to learn scales like "do-re-mi",
which I suppose is some sort of mode.  In fact, I still use do-re-mi
for a warm up/exercise.  I go two octaves across the neck, up a fret and 
repeat...All the way up and down.  It's a real muscle burner !!!

Now, if someone can show me how do-re-mi will fit over 'Stormy Monday 
Blues' better than a Gm pentatonic, I 'd love to hear it.  Cuz it doesn't
work for me.  Thats what bugs me about modes.  I put the time in to learn 
something other than pentatonic, and it doesn't work (for me).

FWIW - I think DB is right on the money about Friedman/Mustaine thing.
I'm into hearing new stuff, but playing the tried-and-true...

jc (Who'll never be an innovator)

    Coop,
    
    Have fun and do whatever feels and sounds good to ya!!  Whether or not
    it is "theoretically" correct doesn't really matter to everyone....nor
    does it always matter if  *you*  even understand why it is or isn't
    correct.  As you can gather from the plethera of responses on the topic
    of scales and keys, there are many "opinions" on "correct-ness".
    I will admit, however, that when musicians are working together on a
    project, in a band, or just jamming, it REALLY helps when everyone
    speaks the same "language".....now if I could learn the rest of the
    language!  8^)
    
    P.S...  G major pentatonic scale works pretty good on Stormy Monday too,
    and if you look at R n R (you and I) doing that number on tape, you'll
    notice me transitioning from G min pent to G maj pent from verse to
    verse and within verses.....try it!  We were hacks, but there is some
    "decent" guitar work on that tape..... 8^).
    
    
    Steve

Yeah man, thats the best trick I've learned to date (and I learned it from you.
If your playing a song in a monor key (like Stormy...), you can ditty bop
between the two and scream !   

jc (Who applied that one reeeeeallll easy)

PS - I still like Friedmans work !!)

    Well,. modulating between Gm pent. and Gmaj pent sort of goes with
    the structure of Stormy Monday which definitely shifts from a minor
    to a major mode for a bit when you play the G, Am, Bm chords for right
    before you say "Wednesdays' worse..."
    
    I think you find that switch from Gm to Gmaj such a natch on Stormy
    Monday because of the G, Am Bm progression is G maj stuff. On another
    (less sophisticated?) blues tune,.. that switch may or may not feel
    as good. It probably still feels Ok lots of the time,.. but not quite
    as awesome as it does on Stormy Monday,... 
    
    like a G major over G7 C7 D7 probably sounds a little less cool.
    
    						/Bill
    

    
    Gee, I just kinda "follow the chords" with a minor pentatonic on
    Stormy...
    
    -pat

    All this talk of modes and scales as they relate to blues sorta leaves
    me cold.  I guess learning the tech side adds more colors to your
    palette, but doesn't make you an artist.  Guess you have to make a few
    bird cage liners before you make a Renoir, huh ?
    
    Scary

RE: Pat

Ding-Ding !  Thats it !!

jc

    Somwhere in here is the equivalence of "do re mi" to an actual scale.
    I know cuz I asked ;-)
    
    Try the keywords for Chord, Scale or do a directory for "Foreign".
    
    Mike

    re Scary
    
    	Not knowing the theory doesn't make you an artist either.
    
    							/Bill
    

    Never said it did ... applying what you know makes you an artist.
    
    Getting back to the TOPIC, of wanting to SOLO.  If your solo consists
    of carefully arranged finger excercises, is that *really* a solo ?  I
    mean, I know a lot of players `work out' a solo for a song.  I couldn't
    imagine that.  I guess it's just my way, but seems like you'd loose
    your inspiration by limiting yourself to something you've `worked out'.
    Just ramblin' ..
    
    Scafry

    I would think an artist is someone that creates music that is pleasing
    to the ear.
    
    but what do I know!
    
    Mike

    My stinkin' two cents worth on solos:  I learned patterns of
    'acceptable' ( Hey, Monk...Hey, Ornette...are these acceptable?) notes
    and where to apply them, but my solos sounded like someone playing 
    patterns.  Sort of a reactive process.  I only knew a dozen or so
    patterns and I know a couple of thousand tunes, so my solos all sounded
    the same.
    
    Then I took lessons for a year or so from a guy named Randy Roos; some
    of you folks will know him from the Orchestra Luna days.  He gave me
    the idea of 'hear it...play it' soloing.  On extemperaneous solos, I
    'hear' a phrase in my head just before I play it or maybe just as I'm
    playing.  Then I try to play that phrase.  The patterns I learned
    serve a purpose here: my fingers know where to go to give me the note
    that fits the melody I heard.  
    
    The trick, for me, is hearing something worthwhile.  I did a couple of
    things to try improving my hearing: I play the melody note-for-note and
    I listen to horn players to try and get their phrasing and melodic
    choices into my head.  Playing the song's melody note-for-note really
    helps to improve finding the note you heard, which is still a stumbling
    block for me.  Also, since in this case you don't have to dream up a 
    phrase, you can concentrate on finding where the notes you hear fall on
    the fretboard.
    
    Recently I've started to make the task harder by adding some fairly
    arbitrary restriction to the melodies I hear.  For example, I'll force
    myself to hear a phrase that consists of eighth notes for the first
    bar.  Or, I restrict my hearing to phrases that begin with a half note
    rest.
    
    Jeez, am I ramblin' or what!?

    re .133
    
    	I was just testin' ya dood :-) :-) We could easily hang ourselves
    up for many replies arguing what is and what aint art. FWIW, any
    definition is subject to criticism. Is Beethoven's 5th art? I mean,
    the piece of paper that holds the score,.. is that art? How about
    the orchestra reading/playing the score, are they artists producing
    art? Or are they just holding a candle to the true artist who created
    the music and wrote it down? Somewhere I think you have to make room
    for the people who work things out and play them out in the world
    of artists creating some kind of art... but thats just my opinion.
    
    	Anyway,.. about "working it out before hand" verses playing
    it "ad lib"..
    
    	They're both "solos" only the second is improvised, and 
    the first is a mechanical reading of know material. 
    
    	If you worked out/wrote the material yourself,.. thats a
    bit more "artistic" in my book than if you transcribed someone elses
    solo or if you are reading someone else's music and just playing it.
    But the real "performing art" begins (IMHO) when the artist forgets
    what he worked out,.. or reaches the end of the "worked out" part 
    and starts to wing it/improv. I think we both like that best and 
    consider that more artistic. But what if you blow it and hit a sour
    note/chord? The worked out part sounded better so maybe thats more
    artistic???
    
    	If it isn't clear,.. all the questions in this reply are rhetorical,
    meaning I don't expect an answer. We could start another note to
    discuss the topic of what is art if you want to continue any of those
    threads.
    
    	I think working out and improving are BOTH part of soloing. Too
    much of one or the other won't sound as good as a good mix of both
    I think... again,.. just my opinion...
    
    	But Mike's definiton is good too... defining art is something
    we won't be able to do.
    
    

   Many times, I'll work out part of a solo and wing the rest of it.  Back
   in my band playing days, I always thought it sounded real cool when the
   soloist and the rhythm section hit some interesting rhythmetic changes
   right in the middle of a wacked out solo.  Or sometimes all of a sudden
   you hear the bass and guitar playing the same parts in octaves (or
   better, with some sort of building harmony); again, right in the middle
   of a solo.  You can use this to really build up a solo.   To do this
   easily, work out those parts beforehand.

   I know a lot of players who work out a beginning or ending (or both) to
   a solo as jumping off/landing points.  Most of the time, they use them,
   sometimes not, and sometimes switch things around for fun.

   I think a 100% improvised solo happens once in a blue moon; and maybe
   never in rock music.  There are just too many of those
   wait-while-I-figure-out-what-to-play-next licks.

   steve

    RE: -1
    
    Good p_n pal !
    
    I guess I'm guilty of `working out' solos, when it comes to covers. 
    But, a lot can be learned from this though.  For example - my old band
    used to cover Molly Hatchet's version of `Dreams' and I'd take the 2nd
    solo (the strat_sounding version).  I learned the hook, then went off
    own my own little thing, and it worked out OK.  One thing I've learned,
    is this.  John Q. Public isn't as critical as the average musician. 
    It's all in what audience you cater to.  The folks that I jam with are
    blues_pukes, which means, you can take off on a tangent and all is
    well.  I'm happy. We have a good time.  When I was playing metal (dumb
    move) the acuracy of the delivery was essential - I missed the boat.  
    
    Learn the modes and scales, in order to build your chops.  But, please,
    play from the heart.  That's what makes an impression - both, with YOU,
    and any audience.  You can train a monkey to play scales.  Or sequence
    them .... 
    
    Scary

    
    Hi all,
    
    	I don't really think this belongs in this topic but it's something
    that cropped up whilst 'learning to solo' so what the heck....
    
    
    	Much to my amazement I have started being able to work out entire 
    solo's from record :-).and I have been working on some of the solo's
    from Camels 'Snow Goose'....I worked out one entire solo, and after
    analysing it have worked out that it is all in F mixolydian, so I
    started on another one and although I have worked some of it out ok
    there is one bit that I don't understand how it works because it
    doesn't stick to a particular mode/scale. Well I imagine that it does
    for most of it but there is one phrase where you start on a C# then
    play an D# then play the E and bend up a tone to F#...now this looks
    like E major to me right up until the next phrase where he plays a C#
    then a D#, then bends that up a semitone to E then releases and plays 
    the D.......huh!! How come that fits? Maybe he isn't playing in E
    major......maybe it's one of these accidentals....however it does sound
    really cool. So can anyone enlighten me on how you can bung in a note
    that doesn't appear in the scale you are playing but sounds ok. If I
    had to hazard a guess I'd say that it was due to the chord being played
    underneath and he maybe 'implying' a mumble-frotz#13dim6b7 or whatever.
    Trouble is it is a spacey sounding keyboard underneath and I can't work
    out what chords are being played.......
    
    Any theory guru's wanna help me out???
    
    J

    
    	so, "garage mode" must be minor pentatonic with plenty of
    interwoven f%#kup's - i'm real good at those :-)

    
    Solos ? 
    
    Nowadays I improvise them at rehearsals and tape them using a cheap
    ghetto blaster. I then listen back to the half decent ones and lift
    them if they're any good, or even just steal any unusual licks. Having
    said that, there have been times when I have played an improvised solo
    that I'm happy with and just totally re-learnt it. Its sometimes as
    hard as learning other people stuff coz I just go into auto-pilot
    sometimes.
    
    -Tony Von Burn-meister

>>    	Much to my amazement I have started being able to work out entire 
>>    solo's from record :-).

    I actually have a great deal of fun doing this.  Not only that, but if
    nothing else, it helps your "ear".

    Now to your question....

>>  ... but there is one phrase where you start on a C# then play an D# then
>>  play the E and bend up a tone to F#...now this looks like E major to me
>>  right up until the next phrase where he plays a C# then a D#, then bends
>>  that up a semitone to E then releases and plays the D.......huh!!

    I don't know the song, but from your description, sounds to me like he's
    playing along in E maj, then uses E mixolydian for flavor.  Mixolydian has a
    flat 7th degree, so you'd have the following in E:

	E F# G# A B C# D 

    Like I said, I don't know the chord progression underneath this solo, but I
    can imagine something simple to illustrate the above.  Say your playing a
    simple Emaj chord and you play that C#->D#->E series of notes; then you
    change the chord to E7 (E,G#,B,D) and you release the E to D.  That should
    sound pretty cool.  There are lots of other possibilities of course...

    steve