Conference napalm::guitar

If anything it'l increase your sustain as less of the string vibrations will be
lost to the springs...

dbii

    I agree!  Because you're allowing less flex in the system, your natural
    sustain should increase (but high output pickups and lots of
    compression will do wonders too...).  Think about how good the sustain
    is on a hardtail (no trem) Strat.  I have one and the sustain is far
    greater then the trem ones I've played.  
    
    That's one of the advantages that a neck through body guitar is
    supposed to have, because it makes a more solid unit.
    
    Greg

    Thanks, Dave, Greg. I think I'll "bottom" mine out and see what
    happens.
    
    Steve

Don't expect a miraculous change in sustain, but I thihnk you'll gain something;
if nothing else it will stay in tune better...

dbii

    I have made the exact same change to my strat with good results. Like
    Dave says, the gain in sustain is not INCREDIBLE, but it is better. I
    like it because I don't have to use the locking nut anymore because it
    will stay in tune for days at a time now. 
    
    Dave.

    I made the "change" with good results.  Did my weekly stint at the
    bluesjam last night, with more sustain (noticeable) and my axe stayed
    in tune ALL night. I'm pleased...Thanks again.
    
    Steve

    Here's a tip.
    
    To sustain notes while playing, place the headstock on your axe against
    the side of your speaker cab...should set up this sympathetic
    resonance/feedback thing...how the `old dudes' used to do endless
    sustain back in the 70s (before the sustainiac systems, etc.). 

    You had no way of knowing this but you're giving tips to an "old"
    dude who played proffessionally in the 70's. 8^)  I used to use Gibson
    guitars religiously and never even wondered what made an axe sustain,
    because my SG's and Les Pauls, and especially my ES335 would sustain
    too much sometimes.  I had to learn to control it.  Now that I have
    my first Strat (which I love), I became interested in gaining a
    little more sustain. Its funny you mentioning this "trick". I hadn't
    done this in years, but Wed night, at the end of "Crossroads", me
    and the other guitar player both turned and placed our headstocks
    on the cabs and rang some great harmonic feedback/sustain!! The
    crowd loved it!!  Us "old" dudes have an affection for the simple
    things in life like natural sustain, simple but tasteful blues licks,
    tube amps, beer, mature women, etc. (not that I DON'T like YOUNG
    women, my wife just frowns on it) No offense taken on the "old dude"
    comment, I'm just funnin' witchya.....8^)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    RE:  .7 AND .8,
    
    Besides I'm only 37!! (My god, that's only 40 minus 3) Oh well,
    my fingers still work, my strat is slick, and life is wunderfool.
    
    Steve

    Oops, sorry!  :^)
    
    I mean, in the 70s I was in Jr. High, so the real guitar players
    seemed 'older' to me then...dats all.  No offense was meant.

    I'll take the term "real guitar player" over "old dude" any day!!
    No offense taken, I suppose the same heroes you were listening to
    then, were closer to my age than yours, so they didn't seem "older"
    to me. When I was 15, Clapton was in Cream and extremely popular.
    He influenced my playing more than anyone as I was just learning
    to improvise, and copy by ear at that time. The neat thing was,
    that he was only about 20 or so (I think) at the time, and I'd think
    "in five years, I'll be playing like he does". Hah! Oh well, at
    least I can play......8^)
    
    Steve

    When I was 15, all my friends were tuning into Ted Nugent, Joe Perry,
    Ace Frehley, and Tom Scholtz licks!!  It was like, ok, I can blues out
    with the rest of `em...then came 1981 with Eddie the V, Randy Rhoads,
    and Yngwie's bootleg 4tk demos from Sweden, and it was like....WTF?
    Back to the woodshed!!! 

    One of the things y'all haven't mentioned is besides the effect on
    sustain by bottoming you trem there is more !
    
    When your up on stage jamming with your favorite 'old dude' or 'young
    dude', and your trem isn't bottomed, what happens when you blow out a
    string (besides play my charvel for the rest of the set...Steve !) ?
    The guitar is useless !  It's out of tune because without the tension
    of all six strings, the springs pull the trem back to the body of the
    guitar and PRESTO !  You sound like a cat fight !
    
    So, ya pull back the springs, bottom the trem and when you loose a
    string, you can stay in tune.  The only drawback is you can't pull a
    'Vai' and run around shaking your guitar by the trem stick !
    
    Now, this doesn't work out to well with Floyd Rose and Kahler type
    trems, because if you pull the tail back against the guitar you'll
    never stay in tune, and your action and intonation will stink...
    Thats why we have a whole fleet of extra guitars on stage with us.
    jc

    RE: .13 by the Kruncher...
    
    Oh yeah, Jeff,
    Thanks for having that CJ model 1 handy at the bluesjam. When the
    1st string popped on "Crossroads" (I think I tried for a 6 note
    stretch), I wasn't about to lose my playing turn. As I put my strat
    down, I turn around, and there's a white Charvel sticking in my
    face with Coop on the other end of it. You saved me my turn, dude!!
    OK, I admit it, running thru "Key to the Highway" on a Charvel wasn't
    that bad. There, I said it, OK!?
    
    Bulldog....
    

    Just a nit.
    
    JC's white Charvel is a Model 3.  A Model 1 has a stock (fender style)
    tremolo on it and a maple fingerboard. 

    re: nit
    
    I really should have known.....8^)
    
    I'm sure Coop's gonna jump all over this one, I'll be stupid for
    a month, or until I catch him in a little boo-boo.....
    
    Steve

    RE: 1418.17....
    
    Coop,
    Ya forgot about "Autopsy"; they're really my favorite!!  8^|
    
    Bulldog

    ;^)
    
    Steve, your killin' me !!
    Agagagagaaa...
    
    jc (Who thinks wood type doesn't matter, it's high-COMPRESSION and high
        distortion that makes a guitar sing-sustain.  ;^)

    Maybe you need to play one of those Jap Les Pauls made of balsa.
    Wood DOES make a difference, but nothing that a few more lights on your
    rack won't compensate for ...               
    
    
    
    				Scary
    

    Charvel (Ahem !) Model's 2&4 are made of Basswood.
    Charvel Model's 5 and 6 are Poplar.
    
    FWIW....

I am recording a demo with a short section of electric guitar.  Most of it goes 
fine (you'd be surprised the sound I get from a Tube Screamer, a delay box into
a red box (speaker simulator) into the board), but the very last note is a bent
whole note (high G on high E string, 15th fret bent up to an A) and it has
absolutely no sustain to it.  I have the distortion turned up to max, I have
added a compressor, all to no avail.  Is this a problem with the guitar (its
an Ibanez LP copy)?  Would the headstock-on-the-cab trick help?

Dan

    Hi Dan, haven't seen you around here in awhile.  8^)
    
    Your string's not fretting out or something on the bend is it?  I
    played a guitar one time that had developed a lump at the end of the
    fretboard that caused the strings to fret out as you bent them and it
    caused a problem kind of like that.
    
    Greg

      I've found that volume and guitar placement in regards to the
    speaker(s) is critical. Perhaps your amp isn't producing enough
    gain? I've tried the headstock on the cabinet trick and it didn't
    help much for me. Maybe it was the particalboard cabinet material
    that didn't work for me too...  I dunno Dan.
      In my case I get plenty of gain from my rig however my signal
    has some "serious" compression on it which adds ALOT to the sustain.
    You say that you compress your signal as well...   hmmmm, maybe it's
    not enough? I feel that amp gain/guitar placement has everything to 
    do with guitar sustain. Certain guitars sustain easier than others too.
    Keep on experimenting Dan!
        
    	Rock on,
    		Fred (who gets as much sustain from his Strat as his Les Paul)

    as the previous owner of that guitar :-) I recommend playing with
    the treble pickup only. I never had ANY problem getting sustain out
    of that guitar (especially that Duncan Invader!). Turn up a little
    bit more; that might help.
    
    - Dave

Just a thought....seems like you're doing all the right things FX wise,

High G on the top E string would be about 800 hz fundamental, so to get
the second harmonic as well, you could try a simple graphic equaliser
and throw some boost in via the 1Khz and 2Khz sliders.....This may work 
providing you are not fretting out. Put the graphic BEFORE your sustain
FX. 

Years ago, when I had crap distortion pedals I had a similar problem on a home 
recording and I got our bass guitarist to "tickle" my string with a feather 
after I hit the note.......yes I am serious!!! You could not hear the "tickle"
only the sustain. Try it if nothing else works.

Also if you have a foot volume pedal you could use a swell to increase the 
sustain (or again, get a colleage to turn up the gain on your amp.)

Can you get the note on your second (B) string ? might just have a bit more
ring to it. 

regards,

Dave

    nuther thought.
    
    If the note you're playing is the High G on the top E string (15th
    fret), I, personally, would opt to play the note as a harmonic on
    the 3rd string.  They (harmonics) tend to ring out better, and 
    longer.

RE .23 Greg

I don't believe there's any fretting out going on.  I tried out a guitar today 
that *was* fretting out on the 15th fret.  Mine just loses sustain fast.

RE .24 Fred

I am not using a guitar cab, per se.  I'm going direct into the board, and into
the tape deck.  I can't add any more distortion as the Tube screamer is maxed
out.  I can't add more compression as I already have too much noise.

RE .25 Dave

I am using the SD pickup, turned up all the way.  The tone knob is also maxed.

RE .26 Dave L.

I haven't tried any EQ or volume tricks, good ideas...

RE .27 Buck

The harmonic would be fine, except I'm doing a bend, and don't know how I'd bend 
a harmonic (I'm no guitar hereo).

General...

I was talking with Brad Schafer last week and thought up an alternate way of 
dealing with it (though it does nothing to solve the problem).  The idea was to
program a sound on a synth that brings in a psuedo feedback signal.  I know, I
know, its faking it, but if it works, it'll be far better than anything I could 
come up with manually in the short time I have to finish this up.

One other thing...  If I'm this close to the pickups, could it be that I'm 
bending it between the screws of the pickups?  Is that a problem?

Dan

RE .27 Buck

The harmonic would be fine, except I'm doing a bend, and don't know how I'd bend 
a harmonic (I'm no guitar hereo).
    
    
    Sorry, I just *assume* everyone's using a whammy these days.
    
    I know...I know, what happens when you ASS U ME?!?
    ;^)

    You can also bend a harmonic (without a whammy bar) by:
    
    	o Bending the string behind the nut or behind the bridge
    
    	o Pulling or pushing on the neck (generally frowned upon by 
    	  luthiers but lots of people do it)

    
    
    Use an artificial harmonic somewhere else?
    
    J

You also could try the G->A bend on the B string 20th fret.  You might get a
little better sustain there...

steve

>One other thing...  If I'm this close to the pickups, could it be that I'm 
>bending it between the screws of the pickups?  Is that a problem?


Dan


Now there's a thought.  Reference my NOTE topic on re-building a STRAT, and my 
hassle with standard Fender re-issue pickups. The bottom line was the magnetic 
pole pieces were too strong and giving me string pull and loss of sustain 
problems. 

Now, you may not have the same range of problem I had, but what if on your
guitar, you have a variant in that when fretting high (and therefore 
moving/pulling the strings closer to the pickups, you are loosing a little
sustain due to the magnetic field.  The interesting thing with this is that
all the effects in the world will not revitalise a string that has stopped
moving !!

Try this.  Screw/back off the pickups into the body as far as they can go, and
listen the any sustain change (just acoustic..no amp ).

Yes, you will have to compensate a little for the gain drop, but if the string 
retains it's energy your overdrive FX will be able to do their job. 

I would be interested to hear if it helps,

Dave

Just to let y'all know what happened...

I went back to do the final take of the recording and it seemed to sustain 
enough this time, without having done anything.  It wasn't earth shattering, but
it was enough to make the recording a "take".  I have to wonder if things like
the amount of humidity in the air or the temperature have anything to do with it
as it always was unacceptable before!

Thanks to all for the help.  I'm still going to be looking at the sustain issue
over the long haul, withg attention given to all your suggestions.  For now, the
big crunch (so to speak) is over.

Dan

	In these days I've been listening to CDs with Journey and Phil
	Keaggy. How these guys (Neal Schon and Phil) produce a clean,
	singing tone that stays there forever, is beyond me. I have
	myself an old "Maestro Sustainer", US built, obviously. Actu-
	ally, it's a fun device. It works by when you play a note, the
	amplification is low and then it increases to an adjustable
	maximum, until you play a new note. As you can guess, it also
	delivers a lot of noise (espicially if you stop playing!)..

	But if you can accept the noise, the singing is there! It has
	other drawbacks though, like cutting some of the low and high
	just by putting the box in the line.

	Anybody know if there are any devices like this out there, in
	a better quality?

	Poul

    The device you are describing sounds like a typical compressor/
    sustainer to me. There have been numerous versions of these over
    the years including the MXR Dyna-Comp, Boss CS3, etc. 
    
    These differ from compressor/limiters in design. Compressor/
    limiters are designed to be as transparent as possible. Sustainers
    are designed to squeeze every drop of sustain from a guitar. The 
    result usually includes quite a bit of noise. I'm not sure what
    compression ratio is used, but I would guess its quite high. These
    compressors release very slowly so the note will ring for as long
    as possible. 
     
    
    I used to use compression heavily (too heavilY). I've tried many
    differant products including the Scholz Sustainer, TC Electronics
    sustainer, MXR dyna-comp, Boss CS3, Chandler, etc. All have a tendency 
    to "eat" your' tone. It almost doesn't matter what type of guitar you 
    use because they all sound the same through a sustainer. 
    
    Lowell George used to use 2 Urie (vacuum tube) compressors back-to-back 
    for the ultra "squeezed guitar tone" on all the old Little Feat albums. 
    Paul Barrere still uses heavy compression for his slide guitar tone,
    as does Bonny Rait. 
    
    I'd like a try an old "Drawmer" vacuum tube compressor. These were
    studio-grade compressors used extensively in the 50s and 60s. I 
    occasionally see them in the Want-ads in the $1500 range. Pretty
    expensive for an efx.
    
    Mark

    	
    	I use compression on both guitar and bass. My compression unit
    	of choice? I quietest unit "I" own is the compressor in my Roland
    	GP-8 multi-efx rack. When I don't want to tote a rack around
    	I use an older Ibanez CS10 stomp box (hey, for $25, I'm not going 
    	to complain). Yes, it's slightly noisy, but for club work, it
    	does the job. The newer Boss CS3 (compressor/sustainer) has a
    	tone control in order to add the highs that some compressors
    	kill and would personally be my choice for a new stomp unit. As 
    	far as "eating" your tone I think it all depends on how you set it up. 
    	I set my compressor up differently for my Strat, G&L ASAT and Les
    	Paul. The G&L and L.P. have hotter pickups than the Strat overall, 
    	so I need different settings, otherwise it will eat the signal.
    
    	Experimentation is key and you can get some wonderful sustain
    	and controlled feedback when you set it up right with alittle
    	overdrive. 
    	
    	"Guitarnote 6" noters tape has a tune "Still got the blues" by 
    	Gary Moore where all I'm using is a Strat, a compressor and 
    	the overdrive built into my Peavey MX combo amp. At the end of 
    	tune I get this endless sustain thing happening that I know I
    	couldn't get without compression.
        	
    	You can spend big bucks, get alot of options on a compressor
    	and most units today are loads better than the older stuff. The
    	old stuff works for me and personally I like my tone...  at least 
    	today since tomorrow all bets are off!
    
    	;^)'s
    
    
    	Good luck,
    
    		   Compressed Fred

    Poul,
    
    Try a DBX 163X.  I've got a whole rack of them in my studio, simply
    because they are quiet, easy to use (one knob - sez "MORE-->" on it.
    Can pick them up over here (used) for $50-$75.  It's a half-rack unit
    with no "wall wart" (straight 110, or whatever).  This gadget could
    easily be preset and dropped in to the back of your twin and forgotten.
    You can adjust for "a little" or "more" and anything in between.  :-)
    
    For my studio, they are MINT!  Affordable, quiet, set 'em in seconds, 
    and season to taste!
    
    Course, I'd LOVE to have a Pulltec to Drawmer, but...
                        

    
    re. last 3: thanks for your input, lots of possibilities there. I'll
    see what I can find in the local 2nd hand paper (budget is low for the
    time)..I think I'll be hunting that perfect violin tone forever...;-)
    
    Poul
    

    Speaking of sustain, have you seen that aluminum guitar that just
    recently came out?   I only glanced at it, but it talks about sustain
    for days - and a "cutting tone".   I can imagine.   It should have as
    much tone as those old plexiglas chainsaws of 25 years ago.
    Don't these guys learn?
    
    Maybe the new thrash alternative (to what?) stuff will embrace the new
    aluminum tone.
    ~~~~~ ooohhhhh ~~~~~
    
    Mike  :-)

    I saw that guit in Musicians Fiend.  Smacks of old Kramer Aluminum
    necked things that went over like a fart in church...
    
    Looks like they'd be good for spinnin' around ones neck tho.
    :-)

    
    	It's an unwritten rule that you have to wear spandex when you
    	spin a guitar around your neck.
    

    >>It's an unwritten rule that you have to wear spandex when you
    >>        spin a guitar around your neck.
             
    That explains why I've never tried it...
    
    I seem to vaguely remember reading an interview of someone (I think it
    was Les Paul) who experimented with an aluminum guitar.  He decided to
    try it out on stage.  As soon as the lights hit it, the resulting heat
    caused the instrument to go way out of tune.
    
    I'll stick with wood, but if someone has a nice National they'd like to
    send my way, I'll take it...  (it would probably be the closest I'd
    ever come to playing "heavy metal"... :^) )
    

I saw these too,, made, or sold at least by Rougue,,
and they're not givin these away, there around 800 bucks.

Go Figure!  If I had 800 bucks to toss off on another
guitar, and that was the last one left on the planet,
I'd buy beer instead...

/pelks...

    Re: a few back.
    
    Compressors/sustainers is only part of the story for me.  When you
    listen to these guys on record do sustain, listen carefully if it is
    only certain notes that are getting long sustain.  If so, there's
    almost certainly some acoustic feedback going on.  I can get endless
    sustain on some notes at concert volumes but not at practise volumes,
    it also depends on the size of the hall, layout, where I'm standing in
    relation to the speakers etc.  So if you want a natural sustain, use
    more volume :-)
    
    /tmp