Conference napalm::guitar

	A lot of what you're asking depends on certain factors.  What is your
instrumentation?  What equipment do you have (both on individual instruments and
for the PA system)?  What size halls will you be playing?  Etc.

	Dan

    Dan
    
     I have five pieces,Lead,bass,rhythm,fiddle,drums.The lead amp is a
    Fender Studio lead amp,the Bass is a Peavy 300 watt with
    chorus,equalizer.My rhythm amp is a 100 watt Yamaha,and,the Fiddle
    players is a Twin reverb.I am using six vocal mics,since we have a
    female singer as a 6th member.My PA has a 325 watt per channel power
    amp for the mains,driving a 15" bass bin,tied in with a Peavey SP-3, on
    each side,for a 4ohm load.My monitor is a 125 per channel power
    amp,with an equalizer,driving into 4 ohms per channel.I have an MD-2
    peavey mixer.We play in small,medium,and,large halls,as well as
    outside.
    
    Mike
    

	There is some discussion in the DREGS::MUSIC notes file
	concerning this. You might what to look there also.

							Jens

    
    I found the discussion in Music,and,got some good information.
    
    Thanks.Does anyone have any experience with using a sound meter to set
    the mix?Where do you start,and,what is the process?
    
    Mike
    

    I can't claim a lot of experience with sound meter, but we started
    using one recently and it provided a remarkable improvement in
    audience perception of our performance, not to mention our own
    greatly improved appreciation for what we are trying to do.  We
    are a Blues oriented band, but we like to show some good vocal
    harmonies as well.
    
    Basically what we did was to first set the PA at 100 DB, using an
    inexpensive Radio Shack device that has averaging capability. Then
    we set the other instruments to have lead and rhythm settings of
    95 and 90 - measuring each one individually.  Of course when
    we all play the level is 110, but the perceived improvement is
    nothing short of amazing.
    
    I'm sure there are other ways to get good results, and would
    emphasize that each room or setting (outdoors) presents its
    own challenge.
    
    We of course did ask a musician in the audience, " Hey how is the
    mix ?  Is anyone too loud ? "
    
    -Bill  :)
    

    
    Bill,
    
     Thanks for your input.From where do you make your readings?At a
    certain distance from the speakers?
    
    Mike
    

I use the following methods that works well for me.
I'd be interested in any comments/suggestions on these methods.
There is always room for improvement.

Basic set-up and level check:

	A $30 radio shack sound level meter is  a very inexpensive and
	valuable tool to acheive a good mix.

	Meter at the place you want the best sound to be heard, for 
	instance, the middle of the dance floor in front of the stage.
	Use the average scale. Set the instrument the highest level it will
	be played.

	If you want to acheive a 100db total output, each indivudual
	sound source should be  "3db down" from the main 
	level. For example; to get ~100db total output, if you have a single 
	instrument, meter the instrument to 100db. Two instruments,
	set them at 100db-3db = 97db. Set three instruments at -6db,
	4 at -9db etc. This should get you close to your goal.
	Monitors will add the the overall volume as well. If you run the
	monitors at close to the same level as the mains, you should
	set everything at -6db down.

	Set the main faders to unity gain (0db), the channel faders
	to the -ndb down position mentioned above, then bring up the
	input gain of each channel, one at a time, while metering to 
	the -ndb down average level. Set EQ appropriately during each
	channel set-up. You should never see a peak indicator light,
	and you input channel meters will move very little.

	Do a level check of the all channels playing at once, to make sure
	you are close to your overall goal. Keep in mind that EQ changes
	will vary the output.

	Once set-up, use the main faders in small increments for the
	overall sound level, and individual channel faders to make
	an instrument stand-out or to adjust the mix. Make slow
	adjustments to the faders, especially on mikes channels,
	and acoustic guitars to avoid initiating feedback.

Guitars/bass:

	Using microphonmes to catpure amps can be very troublesome. 
	Feedback and bleed-in from other instruments, kicking the mics
	etc make me want to avoid them. For the studio it may be more
	managable, but I think its more trouble than it is worth for 
	a live set-up.

	I prefer to pull a signal from either a direct out, or 
	a effects loop send. Use a 1/4" to unbalanced high impedence
	to XLR balanced low impedence matching transformer or direct box.

	Low impedence lines are less susceptable to noise, and the board
	provides an automatic signal boost at the XLR inputs.	

	Amp direct outs are usually a bit harder to control than effect
	sends, since the master volume may effect them as well as the 
	output from the amp speaker.
	Effects sends more often have a stable level, regardless of the
	master volume. This allows the guitar amp to be used as a personal
	monitor for the guitarist, while getting the room sound from the
	effect send signal into the board. The amps master volume controls
	the monitor level, the board controlls the main mix. Warn the
	musician to avoid major adjustment, other wise the monitor mix
	might get out of control. If you want to still use the effects loop
	for effects, you might consider splitting the signal from one channel
	of a stereo effect.

	The use of a compressor, is very helpful (necessary in my opinion)
	for keeping spikey guitar and bass signals under control. Put 
	the compressor between the effect signal send, and the input gain 
	of the mixing board. Some dynamics will be apparent from the 
	monitor mix, and will only add to the sound quality.

Monitor mix:

	(I don't have much experience here but...)

	Use foldback or aux busses to return the monitor mix, for
	vocals. Guitars that have their own amplification can get most
	of their monitor mix level from the stage amp itself, with some
	from the foldback bus. Pan instruments in the monitor mix near
	their sound source, unless feedback occurs. Keep the monitor
	mix close to mono.

	I would meter the monitors in almost the same way, except
	meter from the position of the musician, not from in front of the
	stage. I'd try to keep the total monitor mix about -3 to -6db
	below the mains total.

Recording Set-up:

	Totally different than above.

Rick

    RE: 6 and 7
    We follow the same practice as described in reply 7 for placement
    of the sound level meter: pick a spot where the best sound should
    be located - and measure everything from that spot in spite of the
    inconvenience that it will cause.  The Radio Shack meter has a
    tripod mount which is handy, since the unit can be left in
    position during play (more applicable to rehersal than performance)
    so that you can avoid the creeping volume syndrome, not to mention
    preserve your sense of hearing.
    
    After you get a sound level meter, let us know how much your
    overall "sound" has improved !
    

    
    Thanks everyone for your help.I will be setting up outside this
    Saturday for our first Gig.I'll l let you know how it goes.
    
    
    I have another question:
    
    I was talking to a sound man from another group,and,during the
    conversation,we touched on equalizing.He said they had a unit that
    caused the low end of the spectrum to be time changed so as to sync the
    low end with the highs.He said that the highs and lows will be heard at
    different times by the audience.Anyone have any information on this?
    
    Mike
    

re: < Note 1383.9 by DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE > < Syncing? >-
    
<   He said they had a unit that
<    caused the low end of the spectrum to be time changed so as to sync the
<    low end with the highs.He said that the highs and lows will be heard at
<    different times by the audience.Anyone have any information on this?

Bose (901)speakers come with a dymanic EQ box which I believe
uses some type of time delay synchronication based on frequency to normalize
the wavefront.

There are no controls on the unit, so I assume that it is optimized
specifically for a given model of Bose speaker. I've been told
that the difference between using the Bose dynamic EQ, and not, 
is dramatic. It is a great part of the secret of why Bose sounds so good.

The unit operates on some psycho-acoustic effect with which I am not
very familiar, but I'll hazard a guess. Since all sound waves travel at the 
same speed, I would think that it has more to do with how different 
frequencies are perceived, rather than how they travel. Although,
high frequency sound is more directional, and drops off more dramatically
with distance than low frequencies. Since low frequencies have a longer 
wavelength, it might be that it takes longer for the ear/brain to 
respond to them, giving the impression that they occur later in time.

I believe that the Barcus Berry sonic maximizer may perform
a similar function to the Bose unit. There are some notes on the BB Sonic 
Maximizer in the COMMUSIC conference.

It is an interesting subject. I would like to learn more about it myself.

Rick

    
    
    Yeh,thats what he called it,a Sonic Maximizer!I'm learning quite a bit
    in the last few days.I feel more sure of what I am trying to do.Thanks
    Rick.
    
    Mike
    

    
    	Re-.9
    	Hi Mike,
    		I think the person you were talking to was referring
    		to time delay between hi and low frequencies. This
    		is not really a problem unless you are playing in
    		very large places, like the Centrum, etc. 
    
    		Neal
    

    
    Well,at the time they were playing in a club.Well,I guess a lot of
    things which I call bells and whistles,I dont need.I like a easy to
    set-up,simple as possible system,which will meet my needs.
    
    
    Mike