Conference napalm::guitar

    Good topic! I too have noticed that music stores tend to
    slam brands that they don't carry. Whenever a salesman
    does that, he/she loses credibility with me. Now, an objective
    comparision of two brands is different...
    
    I don't really think that I would like to be
    in the music store business, but I've often thought of how
    I would do it if I was. One concept that I would like to
    see is a "Amp Room", soundproofed and set off from the
    main part of the store. Lots of HiFi stores do this. That
    way you can really compare the merits of an amp without
    bothering people on the phone or feeling self-conscious.
    
    Similarly a "Drum Room" would be a plus. Drummers seem to
    get treated like second class musicians. I don't play drums
    but it seems like most stores don't have much variety/stock
    for drummers.
    
    The biggest pain is when you are ready to buy something, and
    you go to the nearest dealer for that product with cash in 
    hand, and they are out of stock. "Well we can order it for you
    but that will take X weeks." Why do all music stores wait until 
    they run out before ordering more of something? If I had a store, 
    I would try to keep a decent stock. Unfortunately, it's cheaper
    to run lean and mean.
    
    As far as brands, I would definitely have Fender, Gibson, and
    Ibanez guitars. The rest Mark mentioned are all good.

    This is also something I thought about, especially if DEC offers
    the "buyout program".
    
    All the previous ideas are great.  Some others that I'd do are:
    
    1.  Stock a few lines of keyboard gear too to attempt to level off
        some of the peaks and valleys of small businesses.
    2.  Sell current state of the art MIDI computers also like Apple
        and Atari ST.  Same reasons as #1.
    3.  Excellent staff (as mentioned before) that can teach as well
        for evening classes.
    4.  Small music library for various documentation, media, etc.
    5.  What would a full-service music store be without a repair center?!
    
    Mike

    
    	I'd run it like a hoc shop. There's so many used "musical
    instruments" for sale in this location of the country that I figure 
    this must be what happens to one out of every three that are purchased
    "new"...
    
    	Ever add up all the prices for every ad placed under "instruments"
    or "accessories" in the WantAd? It's quite an inventory, in terms
    of dollars...
    
    	Perhaps, it'd be nice to have a single location to go and buy
    used instruments and equipment, instead of having to traipse around
    half the state going to people's houses or whatever.
    
    	Alas, I digress. I keep forgetting that people dont want anything
    "used". "Eeeeeeeewww! It's *used* - somebody else touched it" Sheesh...
    
    	Joe Jas

    
    
    I would have to limit my music store to guitars, guitar amps, and
    related equipment.  I don't have the expertise in other instruments
    (keyboards, drums, etc) to do it right.
    
    I also tend toward mostly used instruments and equipment.  No
    over-priced collector's items.  Just good, solid gear in the $200-$1000
    or so range.  (I might have to work on those ranges 8-) )
    
    I like the idea of a sound room to test the gear.  A first-rate,
    in-house repair facility would be a necessity.  If I sold something,
    I'd want to be able to stand behind it when it went out the door.
    
    To me, the atmosphere of the store would be real important. You know
    the kind of place - kind of like a funky bookstore except with guitars. 
    A place where guitar players come the day before Christmas to hang out,
    tells some lies, and jam.   The kind of place where even if the chains
    have a lower price on an item, you buy it there because the people are
    OK and you know you'll never get screwed.
    
    
    My store would never make a lot of money.  But it would be a lot of
    fun.
    
     Kevin

    Re: .4
    
    There was a store down in CT that used to be run like that.  I bought
    a few things from them when I was a young sprout and couldn't afford
    anything new.  The trouble with a store like that is that the stock
    is pot luck.  One day you may walk in and find some great stuff
    and another there might be nothing but garbage.  The dealer has
    to have a good idea what will actually walk off the floor.

    I like those kinds of stores, used gear has more, eh, "character"
    to it.  8^)  8^)  8^)

    There is definately a market for used gear, and I for one have no
    objection to buying used if the price is right. The stores that
    come to my mind are McDuff's, Billy Lees, and Daddy's as far as places
    to find used gear in the central Mass area. 
    
    McDuffs could be improved 100% simply by doing a housecleaning, and 
    re-arranging the store to better display what he's got. Some of the 
    old pieces that may never sell should be marked down to next to
    nothing just to get rid of it. His selection of acoustics is nice, 
    but almost none of the ones he handles come from the factory with a 
    pickup. I would order 90% of acoustics with pickups, 10% without
    since most people eventually want/need to amplify their guitar.
    His selection of effects, mics, amps, etc. is like patchwork, even
    in new stuff. I would settle on one major franchise and try to carry 
    the *FULL* line, rather than having a mixed bag, with no one brand 
    being well displayed or represented.
    
    I can't understand for the life of me how Billy Lee stays in business.
    His selection of quality stuff is almost nill. If it weren't for
    the fact that he also deals in guns and coins, he probably would have 
    gone under a long time ago. His sign boasts Gibson, and Crown, but I 
    have never seen more than one Gibson locked up inside a glass case 
    where no one can touch it, and a bunch of Crown catalouges, no inventory.
                                 
    Daddys deals in used gear, but usually does not have enough Fender,
    Gibson, etc, and too much no-name junk. Their prices for used gear
    are top dollar, also. The Shrewsbury store is really lacking in
    rack-mount gear, which the public clearly wants. 
    
    Of course, speaking as someone with no experience in the business,
    I see things from purely an idealist point of view. 
    
    If I had to pick one store in the area that I would want to emulate
    it would be Mr C's in Marlboro. Granted under the present management,
    some people have complaints, but the things I admire about the store
    is the size is just right to be manageable by a small staff, it is 
    generally well kept, and he prides himself in keeping an impressive
    stock of Gibsons, and other highly desirable guitars in stock. He
    also has a nice location, although parking can be a problem, especially
    where some custmers walk out the door with Marshall stacks and other
    large items. Unlike most small stores, he has a nice selection of 
    rackmount gear, but should definately get more into PA gear. He also 
    should change or augment the franchises he carrys of effects (ie Boss, 
    Roland, Alesis, etc). He also should pick up either Tascam, or Fostex for
    recording gear. 
    
    The store that impresses me the most is Wurlitzers. Say what you
    will about them, they have the best selection, period. They are
    also very competitive on most things, especially if you know the
    prices and haggle with them a little. A store like Wurly's takes
    a lot of capital to support, especially at start-up. It takes a
    major chain like EUW to secure the franchises they sell.
    
    One thing that puzzles me is that you almost NEVER see music stores
    located in shopping malls. I would think that there are enough people
    interested in music to allow a music store to stay afloat in a prime
    location, provided it was well managed. Years ago, I went into a
    music store in Woodbridge, New Jersey, called "The Harmony House".
    This store would blow most musicain away by todays standards. For
    instance they had a guitar wall about 200' long chock full of Strats,
    Gibsons, etc. and carried nearly every major brand that was popular
    at the time (this goes back to about 1970 timeframe).
    
    More later, got to get back to work...............
    

    >One thing that puzzles me is that you almost NEVER see music stores
    >located in shopping malls. I would think that there are enough people
    >interested in music to allow a music store to stay afloat in a prime
    >location, provided it was well managed. 

    I think you don't see that very often because the rent on space in
    malls are generally VERY high, and therefore the stores that choose to
    be there need to be high volume and high profit.

    There is a music store in one of the malls here in Colorado Springs.  I
    go in there and look around sometimes, but I'll never buy anything from
    them, not even a magazine.  Their prices are the highest in town and
    the salespeople are neither knowledgeable or helpful.  I considered
    looking there, until a salesman offered to "demo a guitar for me".  If
    I don't touch it, I don't buy it.  They tend to stock merchandise that
    will appeal to the younger set, like brightly colored BC Rich and
    Ibanez guitars (nothing else in electrics) and only stomp box effects,
    no rack mount gear.

    I can kind of see where they're coming from...  A mall, IMO is not a
    very conducive place to shop for musical equipment.  There's not way
    they could let you crank an amp up.  When I demo stuff, I demo the
    stuff, I'm not interested in having people hanging around hearing me
    play.  At the mall, EVERYONE hears.  Most of the people I've ever seen
    in there were under 18 and just wanted to screw around with the stuff,
    not buy it.  I just can't handle getting treated second class.  I can
    go elsewhere and be treated like I mean something to them!

    As far as a store of my own, like some of the others mentioned, I'd
    probably keep mostly used equipment.  There was a store in Phoenix that
    I really liked that had almost all used guitars, and lots of them.  I
    loved going in there (bought my first electric there).  There seems to
    be too much pressure and rigidity presented by the vendors for my
    tastes.  "You have to sell X amount of our stuff or you don't get any",
    "You have to stock X number of this item to get Y amount of this
    popular item", or "You can't sell Y other vendors competing product if
    you sell ours", or "You can't sell our product because X store that
    already sells this is too close to you", or "You can't discount our
    product...".  I just don't think I'd want to deal with that!

    What I WOULD want would be a small courteous, knowledgeable staff.  If
    you treat customers right, they will generally come back.  If you
    don't, not only do they NOT come back, but they tell their friends not
    to come down! 

    All in all, I think that having a music store would be an enjoyable
    business to be in.  I don't think it would be extremely profitable
    monitarily, though.

    Greg               

    
    Anyone that grew up in the Fitchburg/Leominster Mass. area is
    most likely familiar with Jerry Martel's "Fitchburg Music Store".
    Jerry had very little competition during the 60's and 70's music
    explosion period, mainly because he had the lock on virtually
    all the major franchises. The only other store in the area "Metro 
    Music" (presently the "Music Box") had only one claim to fame and 
    that was drums, since it was owned and managed by two brothers 
    (both drummers).
    
    Jerry Martel had a reputation for driving around town in a differant
    car every day (usually a Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, etc) and
    flaunted his fancy clothes and jewelry. His home was worth millions
    even at 60's prices, and when he eventually sold it, the Boston
    Bruins bought it to house players when they practiced at the George 
    Wallace civic center. Make no mistake about it, there is definately
    money to be made in this business, even in todays vicious climate.
    One reason for his success was that he diversified, investing in
    other businesses including an Antique/classic car restoration business/
    dealership. His music store also sold stereo equipment, as well as 
    pianos and organs. He sold and serviced organs for most of the area 
    churches. He dealt in classical instruments for the school bands,
    as well as the local drum and bugle corps. 
    
    Much of Jerry's windfall profits were made at the expense of parents
    buying their children instruments they knew nothing about, or musicians
    that did not have the patients to sell their used instruments outright
    and traded them for next to nothing. Sound familiar ?  My opinion is 
    that there are various ways a person could make a killing in this 
    business, either by cut-throat tactics, or by offering the public 
    consistantly fair treatment. The former being the fast hit and run 
    approach, and the latter being the slow but steady road to long
    term success.
    
    I know several people that have their own business (Unrelated to
    music). In nearly all cases, they virtually starved for the first 
    couple of years, then either made it or went out of business. Some
    of the ones that went under did so for good reasons. In most cases
    they had no practical mind for business, did not keep adequate records,
    issued credit they never recovered, or got involved in self-destructive 
    habits (ie. drinking, or spending money like water on frivolties).
    As I mentioned in the base note, success in business takes a great
    deal of discipline. 
    
    More later,
    
    Mark
     

    
    	WEll, for three years I managed and ran the daily operations
    of a musical instrument store. While I had a great deal of fun,
    there were some things that weren't much fun at all. In any job
    where you deal with "the public", you run into your fair share of,
    how shall I say this, unreasonable individuals, sometimes even the
    owner (I know, I'd be the owner in this topic, and I'm VERY easy
    to get along with 8^)). Things that I wouldn't do;
    
    Hire "professional musicians" as salespeople. The best way to sell
    a musical instrument is to put it in the hands of the prospective
    buyer. Also, working musicians tend to cherry pick the best stuff
    that comes into the store, and many of them have the personality
    of a clam (remember our Ego topic?).
    
    Extend credit from my receivables to "working musicians". This
    situation jeapordized my commisions a couple of times, because much
    of the "income" for the month was on paper only, with no cash (sort
    of like the US government).
    
    Open before Noon. I'd stay open late, like 10:00 p.m., but let's
    face it, not too many "working musicians" get up before noon.
    
    I'd stay off the manufacturer's floor plans. For those of you that
    don't know how this works, you as the store owner don't buy the
    products, but you "lease" them from the company (Gibson, JBL, etc.)
    until Joe Public buys them from you. Sounds good, until you find
    out that you have to carry lots of items that can't be sold as part
    of the floor plan package. We carried some of the inventory until
    we had literally paid as much as the RETAIL customers would pay
    to purchase it! And, we STILL paid until it sold!              
    Many times, floor plans are part of the deal for getting a franchise.
    
    I alone would deal with the manufacturer's reps. These guys are
    frowned upon by used car salesmen, they're so sleazy! If you think
    the store's salesmen are pushy about what you need to succeed as
    a musician, multiply this by a factor of ten, and you get an idea
    of what the reps. are like!
    
    I'd show some compassion for people. I made some deals that were excellent
    for the store, but, in all honesty, really screwed the unsuspecting
    person. I know that they thought they got what they wanted, but
    I'm not QUITE as cynical as P.T. Barnum. ALso, you need to remember
    that the huge majority of the people that walk into the store believe
    that they are going to be the next Elvis, Beatles, Bon Jovi, or
    whatever. They walk in, with a sign over their head, flashing, 
    "Take advantage of me!"  As the salesperson, it was like taking
    candy from a baby. 
    
    Oh, well, enough for now. So, when do you guys want to open a store?
    
    8^)
    
    Bill

    
    re:.7 
    
    I think Mr. C.'s does carry Tascam.  I bought a Porta 05 there about
    four months ago. (I'm such a nit picker).
    
    Concerning music stores in malls:
    
    Here in good ol' Burlington, VT we have a music store in a mall
    downtown.  The guitars are mostly cheap copies.  I looked at some
    keyboards once and nearly gagged.  They were literally twice as 
    much as the store across the street.  And a month later the store
    across the street marked theirs down $50!
    
    Guy

    
    Well, I don't buy alot of stuff and will certainly never open up
    my own store but, as a guitar player, this has always dumbfounded
    me.
    
    The guitars are never set up right.  They seem to take them out
    of the box and put them on the wall.  I know a guitar's action is
    personal but they seem to always be buzzing all over the neck and
    are seldom close to being in tune.  To me, keep 'em all playing
    like butter and you'll sell them!!  Sure, buy it and they'll set
    it up for you.  I'd at least like it to be somewhere near decent
    already.
    
    Kinda like buying a car that's in need of a tune up and having to
    imagine what it runs like.
    

>< Note 1334.8 by CSC32::G_HOUSE "No, you're not there..." >
>    probably keep mostly used equipment.  There was a store in Phoenix that
>    I really liked that had almost all used guitars, and lots of them.  I
>    loved going in there (bought my first electric there).  There seems to
    
    Greg, do you remember the name?  Was it M.E.E. (Musicians Electronic
    Exchange)?
    
    Mike

    re a few back:
    
    I don't mind Mesa Boogie's no-discount policy.  In fact, I wish
    more manufacturers sold their product this way.  Have you ever
    gotten a "good deal" on something, only to find out later someone
    else bought the same item for $50 or $100 less?  Aren't the music
    stores always crying about being undercut by shoddy mail order houses?
    Consistent pricing seems beneficial to both the store owner and the
    consumer.  Just think, dealers would be forced to compete on the
    basis of selection and service.  Ahh, to dream...
    
    re music stores in malls:
    
    anyone remember the Blues Brothers?

    
    I agree with Rick about Mesa's pricing.  If you like you can order
    direct from Mesa for the same price as what the store charges. 
    
    What the dealer offers is a chance to hear the thing, possibly a
    savings over the shipping (though you might have to pay some tax
    instead) and possibly service if it breaks.  
    
    What the factory offers is they will let you order anything they
    make as opposed to what the dealer may have on the floor.  So you
    can take your choice. 
    
    Not to mention that despite no discounts, Mesa prices are competitive
    with most gear of like quality (as we discussed in the recent
    "Boogie-is-too-d**n-expensive" note).

    re: .13  Mike
    
    The place was (is) called Bizarre Guitar.  I believe it's on 7th Ave
    (yes, I remember the distinction between Sts and Aves), south of
    Camelback (but before you get to Indian School).  I was there when I
    visited last year and they were bigger than ever!  If you've never been
    there, you should check it out.  They have an amazing selection and the
    prices were excellent back then.
    
    Greg

    Yeah Greg, I was just at Bizarre Guitar 2 weeks ago.  I took off
    a Friday afternoon and visited all the big guitar shops in the valley.
    Their sister store, Bizarre Drum is next door.
    
    They seemed to have the best selection and the best prices of anyone
    that I've visited in this area.  They even had some VOX amps in there 
    and a Fender Strat 12 string, not mention the Les Pauls, Kramers,
    Ibanez, Gibson Hollow-Bodies, Fenders, Martins, Sigmas, etc.
    
    My wife wants me to get a 12 string so I tried out an Ibanez (all
    they had in stock were the ones with the blonde wood finish).  Played
    almost as well as a Takamine, but it was only $245!  They also had
    Fender Strats for $210.
    
    Ibanez is making a big push in the acoustic market too!
    
    Mike

    I once went into a "mall music store".
    
    I met the most incredible salesman I ever met.  This guy would make
    Joey Isuzu look like a saint.
    
    They were peddling these tiny little "Birdie" amps that were made
    to look like Boogie's - they had cane grills and such and the Birdie
    logo plate was pattern after the Boogie plate.
    
    I could barely contain my astonishment when this guy started telling
    me that these Birdie amps where actually "just as good as Boogie" and
    that Boogie made by Boogie but were priced lower and renamed so as not 
    to affect the market for Boogies.
    
    Now, let me make this clear - these things were el cheapo sleazy
    solid state practice amps (like 6 watts) that had nothing in common
    with Boogies - other than that they were "overpriced" ;-).
    
    Now the reason why I was in the store was to pick up a synth I they
    had been "repairing" for SIX MONTHS.   When I complained that this
    was ridiculously long for a repair, he started saying "well, we cater
    to professional musicians and THEY know that these things take time
    blah blah blah, and started indirectly stating that my attitude was
    that of an amateur."
    
    Sure, tell a pro that his bread and butter (his axe) is gonna be
    gone for 6 months and see what kind of reaction you get.   Also
    the notion that this was a store that catered to professional
    musicians was really incredible considering what they sold which
    was mostly:
    
    	o Home organs
    	o "Easy Piano" songbooks
    	o Cheap guitars and amps
    
    I mean this guy was INCREDIBLE!!!  Lying, and rather obviously so,
    through his teeth in almost everything he said.  Almost non-stop
    bullshit.
    
    Another salesman was listening in, could see my incredulous look,
    and later when the lying salesman walked away, I turned to this
    other guy who sorta had this apologetic look on his face and I
    said "your colleague there is pretty incredible".
    
    He just shook his head and said, "well...   what can I say....  he
    just... does stuff like that and none of us know why."
    
    	db

    
    My favorite music store was (and still is) Mcguire Music in Lafayette,
    IN.  It was also the ONLY store in the area, so it wasn't too difficult
    for me to become a regular there.  In the couple of years since I've
    moved to this area, I haven't found a store that I have as a first
    choice, and generally go to the store that best fits my specific needs
    on a given occasion.
    
    They had *LOTS* of *NICE* guitars, and you could try out any of them
    without being bothered by a salesman.  Off of the main floor were 2
    rooms:  one room was small and had a stool in the middle.  From your
    sitting position, you could turn in the chair and reach any of 2 dozen
    of the best acoustic guitars they had in stock.  I spent a LOT of time
    in there when I would pick up strings, music, etc....and was able to play
    this one 12 string long enough to realize beyond any reasonable doubt
    that I wanted to buy it....so I did!!  When I did need any help from a
    salesman, I got it, but without any pressure or hassles.  The other room
    was sound proof, where you could plug into an amp and crank it up without
    bothering anyone, or without being bothered by anyone.  The place was
    great.  Another great thing about this place was that I was always treated
    very well and with respect, even though I don't look like a professional
    musician (and I'm not, either).
    
    But this is also in Indiana, where a music store can get away with being
    so cool without getting abused by customers......
    
    Well, that's what I like in a store.  If I ran a store, I would do it
    that way.  But I wouldn't own a store anyway, in a week I'd be sick of 17
    year old metal-heads abusing the Gibsons and Marshalls.....
    
    Dave
                      

    I get real tired of being handed a line that they will either get
    me the catalog or that I should be able to determine how the guitar
    will play by playing a rightie upside down.  Stores which give me
    the catalog line drive me to MO.  If you can't play it there why
    pay for the increase and tax.
    
    Joe

    So has any of our dearly departed started their own business?  We
    could support them with our volume (literally and figuratively).
    
    I'd love to start my own to satisfy GTS.
    
    Mike

    How does one go about starting their own business?  Not necessarily a
    store, but maybe a "music broker" type arrangement.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    
       Yipes.  Kinda of a big question to ask.
    
       First I'd look at the marketing research end.  Decide if 
    you can get into it before you go off and really get in to it.
    
       - Who is your competition? How many stores are there in New Engalnd?
         What caliber are they?  Contact the state(s) and see how many have
         gone out of business over the past _x_ years?  Tie that information 
         to the economy?  Where are all the stores in regards to populace
         centers?  Drive all the above into some analysis.  
    
       - What do they do/sell? 
       
       - Who do they sell to? 
    
       Once you become the worlds foremost person on the subject 
    matter, fine tune your idea to compete.  
    
    
       **************************************
       Sorry, the above is disjointed. Got called 
      away and I can't stay right now either.  
      There's plenty more to do while looking at
      a start up.  We'll talk sometime latyer off-line
      if you want.
    
    
        Rick.
    

    No, I meant in terms of the legalities (i.e., paperwork, licensing,
    etc.).  I don't know anything about it.
    
    Mike (who's not in New England or Old England)

    Own my own store? I would take out a huge bank loan. Travel the country
    going from guitar show to guitar show. Buy tons (literally) of vintage
    guitars and amps. Put them in the store and NEVER UNLOCK THE FRONT DOOR
    to let in customers that might actually buy one of these precious pieces
    and pry it from my hands. Then the bank would come and seize my assests
    and I would hang myself.

    
    
    
        I used New England only as an example.   I guess you're in Colorado
    land - I guess?   If so, good, Colorado is one of the best states to
    incorporate in.  Alot of small business incorporate there because you
    do not need a CFO and Treasurer. 
    
        You want an easy way to do this?  Contact the Small Business Admin.
    They will give you a mountain-o-paperwork to read through which will 
    get you started.  Another source, call the State house switch board, 
    or info-line. Tell them what you want to do and they will direct you 
    to an office that will be more than happy to help you out.  [Admin's, 
    both fed and state, *LOVE* to pretend they help small business.  Then 
    they drive them outta business with regs, taxes and such.  But they'll 
    be there when you want to start up the *NEXT* business.  Sigh.]
    
    
        Rick.
    
    
        PS:  The small business admin can also get you a "SCORE" business
             consultant.   FREE!!!  (Was that SCORE, or something else?)  
             Be wary of what they say though.   There are good and bad.    
             More bad than good I should say.   Just take every thing you 
             hear with a grain of salt.  You'll know good advise when you
             hear it.
    
        PSS: When running your own start-up, or small business - you will 
             probably be your WORSE enemy.   
             

    Rick, SCORE's Service Corps or Retired Executives.

    Mikey's in Arizona, FWIW.
    
    I would agree about contacting the government, they have people set up
    to help ya with this kind of thing.  My wife was thinking about
    starting a cottage business a couple of years ago and got a bunch of
    literature and forms from the Small Business Admin.  
    
    Greg

    re .25
    
    >> going from guitar show to guitar show. Buy tons (literally) of vintage
    >> guitars and amps. Put them in the store and NEVER UNLOCK THE FRONT DOOR
    
    10 Les Paul's and 10 Twin's would be all it would take to get to the
    "tons" category.

>    10 Les Paul's and 10 Twin's would be all it would take to get to the
>    "tons" category.

    HA! Or just 2 Marshall Majors. Or 1 SVT.

    Or half a B-3.
    
    Dave