Conference napalm::guitar

    I wouldn't "knowingly" buy anything stolen. When shopping
    in a pawn shop, how are you suppossed to know if something
    is stolen or not ?? I would assume that anything sold
    through a pawn shop was legitamate, and as long as you
    walk out with a reciept, I wouldn't worry about the police
    knocking on your door.
                    
    This brings a interesting story to mind. I met a guy a while
    back that learned about buying stolen property the HARD way.
    Him and his friend (the friend plays guitar) were in a Worcester
    bar one night (half drunk, of course), and a guy approached them
    and offered to sell them several guitars dirt cheap. They left
    the bar and followed the guy down Park ave into a parking lot
    behind a funeral parlor (just happened to be located directly
    next door to EU Wurlitzers). They met a couple of guys that
    live in the projects directly behind Wurly's, and bought
    ~5 instruments for $200. The guys took the money and left. 
    These two guys started opening the cases to see what they
    had bought, and before they could open the second case, they
    found themselves surrounded by police officers. It seems
    the instruments had just been stolen that night. The back door
    to EU Wurly had been completely torn off its hinges. They
    were arrested and confessed to accepting stolen property. This
    wasn't good enough for the police. The police testified in court
    that they found their fingerprints "inside" EU Wurlitzers, and
    both of them were found guilty of breaking and entering, and
    grand theft. Between lawyers fees, court costs and fines, they 
    each ended up paying $2500 and were on probation for 1 year. 
    They also got to spend 2 days and nights in the Worcester County
    jail. For this much money they could have easily purchased the 
    guitars for full list price. 
    
    Obviously, these guys were very stupid to fall into this trap. They
    had to know they were buying stolen property, especially since 
    they were right next to a music store. I don't condone the police
    lying in court by saying they found their prints inside the store
    (you can believe what you like, I don't believe these guys commit
    a b&e). I think the punishment they recieved was a little harsh,
    but one thing is for sure, they won't ever buy anything "hot" again.
    After hearing this story, niether would I.
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    Nope, not a prayer I'd knowingly buy something hot.
    
    I've managed to modify some of my synths so that my name (not the
    manufacturer's) is displayed when you turn them on.
    
    Thiefs suck...
    
    Edd the insured

    I wouldn't knowingly buy something that was hot.  I don't like thinking
    that the next time someone gets a good deal like that, it might be my
    stuff he's buying.
    
    But the big question is, how can you know?  I mean in a scnerio like .1
    describes, it's pretty obvious, but if you're just buying something
    from an individual, maybe from an ad in the paper or a flea market, how
    can you tell?  I guess you could ask them if they have a receipt for
    when they bought it (I have receipts for most of my major equipment),
    but not everyone will save them like that.
    
    Pawn shops are SUPPOSED to run the equipment they receive through a
    police screen for the serial numbers anyway (at least around here), and
    they ARE a business which will give you a receipt for the merchandise,
    so the chances of getting burned there is less.
    
    I'm told that my homeowners insurance would cover my equipment, at
    least while it's in the house.  Since I don't gig right now, that's
    good enough for me.  But my policy did change companies recently (since
    I checked on that anyway), so I probably need to be sure it's all
    covered now.  There was a big discussion in MUSIC not too long on the
    subject of musical equipment insurance.  Those interested may want to
    find it.
    
    Greg

    Thiefs suck...
    
    Ah-men.
    
    Insure your equipment !  Your a fool if you don't.  If you own a house,
    your gear is covered.  If you rent, your renters insurance coveres your
    gear.  If you keep your equipment elsewhere, tell the insurer, and they
    will sell you something to cover you.  Do not tell them your a
    professional musicain.  It'll cost you more.  When I rented up in Mass,
    the insurance to cover all my rental junk, plus all my off-site
    instruments and stuff was maybe $100/yr.  A small price. 
    
    I've been ripped off before.  It sucks.

    Oh, I HAVE found some excellent deals at pawn shops.  My BC Rich
    will testify to that.  One way to check the "temperature" of an
    instrument is to look for a serial number.  If there isn't one,
    then the thing is probably hotter than a ... Well... You know what
    I mean.
    
    Good topic.

    My equipment is insured as long as it is in my home, under
    my home owners policy for full replacement cost. The minute
    I remove it from my house, I believe, it is no longer covered.
    My cousin plays professionally (full time) and all of his
    equipment is fully insured, regardless of where he leaves
    it. This type of coverage is expensive, but is a necessity
    for him, and can be written off as a business expense. Every
    time he buys or sells a piece of equipment, he updates the
    ins. co's list, and provides them with reciepts. He has never
    had to put a claim in on his policy, but it only takes one
    incident for the insurance to pay for itself.
    
    
    I played in a band for 2 years, with no insurance on any of our
    gear. For this reason, I had a firm policy of not leaving my
    equipment anywhere. The guys in the band used to bust my chops
    because I would haul my twin reverb, and all my other gear in 
    and out of clubs every night, regardless if we were playing a
    3 night engagement. One weekend, we played at a place called
    the Red Rooster, in Keene NH. We were assured that our gear
    would be safe, because the owner's son would be spending the
    night in the club with a friend, and would "gaurd" our gear
    for us. Regardless, I took my gear home that night, anyways.
    The next night, when we arrived, our drummer noticed that
    his drums had been moved slightly. He figured they must have
    moved them to vacuum the rug or something, but in the process
    they dragged his bass drum over some nails he had driven into 
    the stage to anchor it. This resulted in several scratches on
    the bottom of the bass drum. We started playing, and when he
    went to strike his roto-tom, he realized the skin had a huge
    hole in it. He later found a drum stick which was split in
    half. Needless to say, the guys that were supposed to be 
    protecting our gear obviously had a little jam session of
    their own, which resulted in this damage. We wanted to approach
    the owner and complain, but were afraid that if we did, we might
    have a problem getting paid. Granted, none of our gear was
    stolen, but it was definately abused. 
    
    My advice is to scale down your gear (the ideal scenario is to walk
    into a club with a guitar and a rack containing a preamp and all
    your efx, and plug directly into the PA) and don't leave it anywhere. 
    
              
    

    re: .4 and .5
    
    .4> If you own a house, your gear is covered.
    
    .5> My equipment is insured as long as it is in my home, under my
    .5> home owners policy for full replacement cost.
    
    Guys, I think you ought check carefully with your agent.  It's amazing
    how much myth goes around in notesfiles about insurance.  We've had
    this same topic in MUSIC.
    
    I am just short of CERTAIN that you will discover that your coverage
    is NOT what you think *IF* you have used any of your equipment to
    make money or any other form of compensation.
    
    You will find that almost all policies exclude "business equipment".
    
    Now, I know YOU may not think of your guitar as "business equipment",
    but the accepted definition of that term is anything that's used to
    make money.  If you've received any compensation for playing out,
    your stuff not likely to be covered by your homeowners policy.
    
    Even if it's stolen from your home (and not at a gig), you probably
    are NOT covered.  The equipment simply is NOT covered by the policy.
    
    And don't think "well, I'll just tell them I didn't make any money
    with it".  Pragmatically, *THEY* don't have to prove that you didn't.
    What really happens is that they say it's business equipment and
    simply don't pay you, and then YOU have to sue them.
    
    So how do you get it insured?
    
    The policy you need is called an "Inland Marine" policy (don't ask me
    to explain that name - it's has a historical derivation).  Some
    insurance companies will offer it for music equipment.  Some won't.  
    It can be EXTREMELY expensive as a seperate policy.  But it can be
    EXTREMELY cheap as an attachment to your homeowners policy, although
    some company's don't give you any breaks for that.
    
    I ended up switching my homeowners policy because they were willing
    to do it very cheaply as an attachment to a homeowners policy.  I
    think it was something like $99.
    
    One thing that I do agree with however, is that that it is ABSOLUTELY
    FOOLISH to play out without having your stuff insured. 
    
    I also feel compelled to add a standard caveat: It's quite clear that
    on these matters, you should not take anything said in a notesfile
    as fact, but consult an expert.
    
    Don't find out the facts and importance of insurance matters the
    hard way.  Consider that the worst case is that you lose all your
    stuff and (unless you're so rich as to be able to afford to replace
    it) then no more music for you.
    
    I have known THREE people this is happen to.  It scared me enough
    to go out and find out the facts and make sure that I was covered.
    Even so, I still worry.
    
    	db

    I've had to take out special "riders" for my audio gear so I imagine
    musical instruments would too.
    
    Some good ideas were posted in AUDIO notes too, for dealing with
    insurance companies if you do get ripped off.  Make sure you take
    pictures of everything you own (so that brands, model names are
    legible) and keep all your paperwork too.  Even a video tape would
    be great.  Just go down to your local guitar shop and film everything
    on the wall :-)
    
    Mike

        

    The point is - CHECK WITH YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY. I have claimed
    stolen guitars (stolen from a GIG). I told the insurance company
    that I was asked to fill in as a favor for a friend. They payed
    and the only proof I had to provide was receipts and/or pictures
    of the instruments. They gave me REPLACEMENT COST. 
    
    This may not be true in all cases. CHECK IT OUT TO BE SURE.
    
    
    >The policy you need is called an "Inland Marine" policy (don't ask me
    >to explain that name - it's has a historical derivation).  Some
    >insurance companies will offer it for music equipment.  Some won't.  
    >It can be EXTREMELY expensive as a seperate policy.  But it can be
    >EXTREMELY cheap as an attachment to your homeowners policy, although
    >some company's don't give you any breaks for that.
    
    I now have an Inland Marine policy - NOT ATTACHED TO MY RENTORS
    or any other policy. I'm covered for Fire, Theft, Water Damage (from
    a flood), and Damage caused to the equipment from an accident (if
    the truck gets hit and it gets smushed).
    
    I'm covered for $13,000 (THIRTEEN THOUSAND) AND IT COSTS ME $80.00
    per YEAR!!!!
    
    I LEARNED MY LESSON AFTER WATCHING MY EQUIPMENT BURN IN A CLUB I
    WAS PLAYING AT. I lost about $7,000 worth of gear - I literally
    watched it burn, and the court battles are still going on after
    almost two years. I doubt if I'll ever see any settlement money,
    but I can dream can't I ?..... (I did write the loss off from my
    taxes though).
    
    
    
    
    
    I ended up switching my homeowners policy because they were willing
    to do it very cheaply as an attachment to a homeowners policy.  I
    think it was something like $99.
    
    >One thing that I do agree with however, is that that it is ABSOLUTELY
    >FOOLISH to play out without having your stuff insured. 
    
    I'll never be fooled again.
    
    -BAP
    

    IN .8, I mistakenly left in a paragraph from an earlier reply:
    
       "I ended up switching my Homeowners" 
    
    Forget that. 
    
    My point was that Inland Marine is indeed inexpensive, and even
    as a stand-alone policy.
    
    -BAP

    To Mark and ASAHI::COOPER.
    
    I could easily believe your agent told you that you were covered if
    the question you asked was "Are my musical instruments covered?".
    
    They ARE covered subject to the exclusions in the policy.  That
    question however would not tell the agent enough for him to know
    that they are subject to the exclusions.
    
    The question to ask your agent is "Am I covered even though I use
    these instruments to play out and earn money for doing it."
    
    And I want to emphasize that if you play out, you should get one
    of these policies.  The excuses I normally hear are:
    
    	o Well, I receive money but I don't turn a profit
    
    	  Doesn't matter.
    
    	o I get paid but it's just a hobby
    
    	  Doesn't matter.
    
    	o How can they ever find out that I make money
    
    	  Answer: they don't have to (see my previously reply)
    
    	o I'm very careful 
    
    	  So were the folks I know who lost all their stuff.  Besides
    	  being "careful" means giving your stuff to the guy holding
          a knife rather that risking your life.
    
    	o Insurance policies are rip-offs.
    
    	  Not if you get the right policy.  This requires some effort, but
    	  in the course of a normal lifetime, it's quite likely to be
    	  worth it.
    
    One other thing.  When dealing with insurance companies, do NOT
    do not attempt ANY fraud (to get a lower rate, a higher claim amount,
    etc.).  That's why you usually have to sign something that says
    "this is true to the best of my knowledge" or something like that.
    
    If you are caught (and they have lots of incentive to try)
    you can find yourself with a loss that isn't covered (because the
    policy was invalidated on the count of fraud) AND facing a lawsuit
    or criminal charges.
    
    I may seem adament, I'm sorry.  But I've seen three heartbreaking
    stories and I *do* want to make an impression on people about how
    important this is.
    
    	db

    I called my rep.  I found out that in my policy (A Allstate Deluxe
    Homeowners), I am covered for my musical stuff as long as I'm not
    a professional.  Being a pro means you make one thin dime (even
    if you lose money on the gig !) your a pro;  You lose.  
    
    Well, I asked him why my claim got settled when I lost some stuff,
    and he said because you gave use an itemized list of all your goodies
    (including pics) and we charge you for "an adder".  In other words,
    My policy wouldn't have covered 'cept I payed for extra coverage.
    
    It costs me $99/year.  A *Very* worth-while $99 it is...
    
    But like someone said earlier...Sorry I forgot who, and I'm too
    lazy to look...  DON'T LISTEN TO ME, I'M JUST A DUMB GUITARIST,
    NOT AN INSURANCE PRO !!

    Don't find out the hard way.  

    re: .6
    
    >And don't think "well, I'll just tell them I didn't make any money
    >with it".  Pragmatically, *THEY* don't have to prove that you didn't.
    >What really happens is that they say it's business equipment and
    >simply don't pay you, and then YOU have to sue them.
    
    What if that is the honest truth?  Are you saying they will still try
    this?  I mean, the truth is that, until recently, I've never played
    with a real band, but I have a lot of musical equipment.  It never left
    my house.  The band I play in now only plays for fun, and only a our
    friends partys, we don't get paid.
    
    If someone breaks into my house and steals all my stuff, is my
    insurance company, who assured me that my musical instruments were
    covered a couple of years ago when I bought my homeowners policy, going
    to try and deny my claim on the grounds that I am a professional
    musician?  Simply because of the quality and quantity of musical
    equipment which I choose to own?
    
    I am not a professional musician (you could easily tell this by hearing
    me play).  I have never made a red cent playing music.  Do I have to
    *prove* this to someone to get an insurance claim paid?  
    
    Now THAT sounds unfair to me!  Why should I have to buy additional
    insurance just so my insurance company won't have to pay my valid claim
    (should I ever have one)?  Fortunately, I live in a low crime area and
    hopefully the issue won't ever come up.  I am fully willing to go get
    the additional coverage that I'd need should my band ever start playing
    for money, but in the mean time, I don't think I should have to shell
    out extra when I asked them specifically if my instruments would be
    covered and they assured me they would.  (Incidentally, I *did* tell
    them that I had a lot of expensive instruments and asked repeatedly if
    they were covered...)
    
    Greg                                                           
                         

    	I inquired with my agent as to my equipment coverage as part of
    my home owners policy and it is covered but only while it is IN the
    house. If I take my equipment out, I need additional coverage which
    I have. When I acquire new equipment, I contact my agent and give him
    the serial number and replacement cost of the equipment. I also keep
    a list of serial numbers at a location other than my house in case of
    fire. One more precaution I have taken is to photograph all of my 
    equipment, especially older or custom pieces as this can be difficult
    to replace or receive replacement value. Sometimes this requires an 
    appraisal from an approved dealer or collector.
    	This topic reminds me of one of those deal of a lifetime situations
    where I was introduced to a guy in Manitou Springs, Colorado who
    happened to have a Gibson Byrdland and a custom ES-175, both under
    $450.00. I almost blew a snot ball on my shoe when I saw the condition
    of these instruments, they were mint! The serial numbers were intact
    and even though I am no expert, I could tell these babies were being
    sold far below their value. Grudingly, I refused to purchase these
    beauties though I must admit, I had a 10 minute argument with myself!
    The Fishead was caught two days later trying to sell them in Denver.
    They were stolen from Colorado Springs. There is a God! I could picture
    myself playing my newly acquired jewel out around town and having a
    6'8" monster ripping my arms off and shoving them neatly up my nostrils
    because I was playing his stolen guitar. I am very careful when buying
    from a private party and/or swap meets.
    	I am in favour of a SLOW death penalty for thieves of musical
    instruments....they're so personal!
    
    DonH
    
    

    re:        Note 1327.12 by CSC32::G_HOUSE 

>    >And don't think "well, I'll just tell them I didn't make any money
>    >with it".  Pragmatically, *THEY* don't have to prove that you didn't.
>    >What really happens is that they say it's business equipment and
>    >simply don't pay you, and then YOU have to sue them.
    
>    What if that is the honest truth?  Are you saying they will still try
>    this?  
    
    I can't tell you what YOUR insurance agency is going to try.
    
    I'm suggesting to you that a common scenario is that if they have
    any reason to doubt that the equipment is used for professional
    purposes (which, you should understand, is not limited to monetary
    compensation), they might choose to not pay your claim and let
    you sue them for it.  Intuitively, I would think this is a kind
    of fraud that insurance companies have to fight all the time.
    
>   ...is my
>    insurance company, who assured me that my musical instruments were
>    covered a couple of years ago when I bought my homeowners policy, going
>    to try and deny my claim on the grounds that I am a professional
>    musician?  Simply because of the quality and quantity of musical
>    equipment which I choose to own?
    
    As I said, I can imagine them "assuring you" on the basis of some
    presumption that wasn't true.  I will tell you that verbal assurances
    are worth only the paper they are written on (i.e. zilch).  I'll
    state it directly: verbal assurances don't mean a thing.  The
    "agreement" you have with your insurance company is whatever is
    written into your policy.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.
    
>    Simply because of the quality and quantity of musical
>    equipment which I choose to own?
    
    Insurance claims adjusters are regular people, more often non-musicians
    than not.  They may not appreciate the depths of spending that this
    hobby/passion of ours brings us to.
    
    Let's imagine a scenario: you're an insurance adjuster.  I file a claim
    for a loss on $20,000 worth of printing equpiment stolen from my
    basement.  I tell you that I am not a professional printer.  You
    gonna believe that?
    
    I think it's quite reasonable, or at least within the realm of
    reasonable expectation, for an adjuster to presume that some guy
    with thousands and thousands of dollars of musical equipment is
    a pro.
    
    We are speaking PRAGMATICALLY here.  I don't know what any particular
    insurance company will do.  I don't even know what MY insurance company
    will do.   So I observe what insurance companies have done to OTHER
    folks and I try to cover all those bases.
    
    That's the most important thing I can recommend: cover as many bases
    as possible:
    
    	o Make the policy as iron-clad as possible
    
    	o Itemize all your equipment:
    
    		+ List it
    		+ Maintain the serial numbers
    		+ Retain the sales receipts
    		+ photograph it, preferably against a background that
    	   	  establishes that it yours (like make it clear that
    		  the photo was taken in YOUR house, or even get in the
    	          picture yourself)
    
    		  I have even resorted to having my cats in the pictures
    	  	  I take.
    
    		+ Retain a copy of whatever you give the insurance company
    		  It might not be a bad idea to get their agent to sign your 
    		  copy.
    
    
>    I am not a professional musician (you could easily tell this by hearing
>    me play).  I have never made a red cent playing music.  
    
    As I said, money isn't the only form of compensation.
    
    > Do I have to
>    *prove* this to someone to get an insurance claim paid?  
    
    No, but this is an example of where you have to be pragmatic.
    
    I think (but am not sure) that they have to prove that you aren't.
    
    However, they can say that you are a pro, not pay the claim, and then
    YOU would have to sue them.  I think even the most reputable companies
    might do this if there were enough indications (short of actual proof
    of compensation) that you were a pro.  Having a ridiculous amount
    of equipment seems a very good indication.
    
>    Now THAT sounds unfair to me!  Why should I have to buy additional
>    insurance just so my insurance company won't have to pay my valid claim
>    (should I ever have one)?  
    
    This one of those "that's life" type answers.
    
    Even if they are reputable, they know that there are tons of people
    out there attempting to make false claims.  If they have good reason
    to believe a claim is false, they won't pay it.  If they did, they
    couldn't be competitive because they'd pay a higher price for fraud
    then their competitors, and eventually fraudulent types would be
    ATTRACTED to their company because they know they can get away with
    it.
    
    Like I said.  Cover as many bases as possible, and get REAL
    information.  You should interpret what I tell you as nothing
    more than MY impressions of how this work, not as fact.
    
    	db

>   Incidentally, I *did* tell them that I had a lot of expensive 
    > instruments and asked repeatedly if they were covered...)
    
    Umm, I don't know if this applies here, but it reminds me of something
    I should mention.
    
    Most homeowner policies exclude various kinds of items that, for
    example, appreciate in value.  Usually you have to declare all
    jewel and often stuff like collectables, valuable antiques, etc.
    aren't covered for anything more than purchase value.
    
    This means that if you were so fortunate as to have picked up
    a 57 Strat for $25 at a yard sale, you probably won't get more
    than $25 for it on a claim without doing something special (a rider
    of some kind, or at least declaring it).
    
    I could imagine that the insurance agent told you that "expensive
    equipment" is covered in good conscience if he didn't know that what
    you were talking about was, say, a vintage instrument.
    
    Unfortunately, the nitty gritties of insurance aren't easy for us
    laymen to understand.  And we can't even always ask the right questions
    to find out.  So what do you do?  Like I say, cover as many bases as
    you can.
    
    	db

    Thanks Dave, I appreciate your comments and cautions.  Like Jeff said,
    it's best to keep your rear covered at all times.  I just had a couple
    of comments.
    
    re: .14

    >Like I said.  Cover as many bases as possible, and get REAL
    >information.  

    You make a very good point.  A verbal agreement is pretty much
    worthless these days.  I will check back with them on this matter,
    especially since the policy has changed companies since I acquired it.

    re: .15
    
    >I could imagine that the insurance agent told you that "expensive
    >equipment" is covered in good conscience if he didn't know that what
    >you were talking about was, say, a vintage instrument.
    
    In my particular case, I don't have any vintage instruments.  I could
    understand how that would complicate things though.  I'm just
    interested in playing, not collecting.  My late 70s Strat is just as
    good, for my purposes, as a '57.  I use the word "expensive" more in
    laymans terms.  Most people would consider buying a $700 Charvel
    electric guitar extravagant.  (obviously this is an incredible bargain
    compared to what Commusic types have to spend for *their* toys...  8^)

    >Unfortunately, the nitty gritties of insurance aren't easy for us
    >laymen to understand.  And we can't even always ask the right questions
    >to find out.  So what do you do?  Like I say, cover as many bases as
    >you can.

    Isn't that the truth!  I find insurance to be one of the more
    confusing businesses around.  It doesn't seem to follow the rules of
    basic logic or common sense sometimes.

    I guess what really angers me about the matter is that, because of the
    nature of my hobby, I have to buy extra insurance to cover my
    instruments and equipment, when it is already covered by my regular
    policy, simply because 1) I choose to pursue a relatively expensive
    hobby, one which can also be used as a career, 2) because a lot of
    *other* people choose to file claims which they are not legitimately
    entitled to, and because I choose to own high quality (sometimes
    expensive) equipment.

    Like I said before, if I am not legitimately entitled to coverage for
    my musical equipment under my policy, I definately WANT to purchase the
    additional coverage, however if I *AM* entitled to coverage under my
    policy, I don't think that I should be penalized because of the type of
    equipment I choose to own.  (Yeah, I know...the real world isn't fair. 
    I *try* not to be so cynical, when I can avoid it.  I have enough of a
    problem with that anyway...).
    
    Greg
                                 

re: <<< Note 1327.16 by CSC32::G_HOUSE "No, you're not there..." >>>

    Over the weekend I thought of another point that at least some folks
    might not be aware of: depreciated value vs. replacement value.
    
    Even if your stuff is "covered" what does that mean in terms of
    what you would recover in the event of a loss.
    
    The vast majority of policies only give you depreciated value of
    the items that you loss.
    
    For example, you have a non-vintage guitar, say a 1980 BC Rich
    that  you paid $900 for in 1980.  It's stolen/burnt/etc.  Chances
    are you will not get anything near $900 for it - even though that
    same guitar might go for $1400 today.
    
    The company will probably calculate its value based on some standard
    depreciation table.  There is a fairly good chance that you won't
    get anything comparable to a 1980 BC Rich with what you get for
    your claim.  The liklihood of getting enough to get something
    equivalent decreases with each year due to the depreciation.
    
    So what good is the insurance then?   That's a question you need
    to ask yourself.
    
    However, you can get a policy that calls for "replacement value"
    instead of depreciated value.   What that's intended to means is
    that they will pay you whatever it takes (with certain exceptions)
    to replace your BC Rich with something "equivalent" (the quotes 
    are deliberate).
    
    Clearly there's room for loopholes in so-called "replacement value"
    policies.  I think it's important to read the policy (which are
    almost as readable as Dante's "Inferno" but not quite), and pay
    particular attention to how  "replacement value" is defined.
    
    While each person should decide for himself, I came to the conclusion
    that replacement value was necessary for me.   I felt that without
    it, the insurance on my stuff was just about worthless as it wouldn't
    allow me to recover what I had lost.
    
    I have often heard of stories where people get ripped-off by theives,
    and then suffer great anguish when they get "ripped off" a 2nd time
    by the insurance company (i.e., they feel the settlement on the claim
    isn't what the stuff was worth even though it's consistent with what
    the policy calls for.)
    
    	db

>    Like I said before, if I am not legitimately entitled to coverage for
>    my musical equipment under my policy, I definately WANT to purchase the
>    additional coverage, however if I *AM* entitled to coverage under my
>    policy, I don't think that I should be penalized because of the type of
>    equipment I choose to own.  (Yeah, I know...the real world isn't fair. 
>    I *try* not to be so cynical, when I can avoid it.  I have enough of a
>    problem with that anyway...).
    
    
    Well, I don't look on it as being "cynical". 
    
    But I would consider it "unpragmatic" to leave yourself uncovered
    based on some notion of principle.
    
    But, I wouldn't ever dare to make a recommendation in your situation.  It
    might well be that your insurance company wouldn't give you any
    trouble.  I just want you to be aware of the risk you take by not
    getting it.
    
    It's up to you to figure out the "odds" and decide what to do.
    
    	db
    
    p.s.  BTW, *I* am also not making money with my stuff (not that I
          wouldn't like to or that I'm not trying).  But I bought the
    	  Inland Marine rider cause $76 to give me piece of mind on
    	  what might be a six figure investment seemed worth it.
    
    	  It also wasn't clear from my reading of the policy that even just
          advertising that I wanted to be in a gigging money-making band
          might brand me as a "pro".
    
    	  But don't misconstrue me telling you this as a "recommendation".

    So, it seems pretty clear that we should all make sure our stuff
    is covered (under any circumstances).  The other important issue
    hasn't been discussed much and that is: Buying stolen merchandise.
    
    When I was a young pup of 19, my parents' house was broken into.
    My room was hit the hardest (kinda makes sense, especially if the
    thief was around my age).  Everything of value was taken including
    a 1963 Fender Jaguar that I had completely re-done and a vintage
    Ampeg amplifier (only a 1x12" combo, but it had the neat vinyl covering
    with the little squares).  Also taken was a gold pocket watch that
    my grandfather had given me and miscellaneous stuff of sentimental
    value.
    
    Up until that break-in I had never felt strongly one way, or the
    other, about buying stolen goods.  That one incident caused me to
    develop very strong feelings about buying stolen property.  If you
    buy "hot" stuff, you're reinforcing the behavior of thieves.  So,
    boycott stolen goods!!
    
    joe.

    I was in Daddys (Shrewsbury) the other night shopping for a price
    on a Boss TU12 tuner. They had a used one that just came in that
    they will sell me for 1/2 the price of a new one. According to the
    saleman, they must hold all used equipment for a minimum of 30 days
    due to a bylaw enforced by the town of Shrewsbury. During this 30
    day period, the serial numbers are checked against police records.
    This tuner will not be available until June 24, but I plan to give
    them a deposit tonight so that they will hold it for me until then.
    
    The ironic part is that a lot of small items are not even serialized.
    As far as I know Boss effects, and tuners are not.
    
    Mark
    

    Hi All,
    
    	My oldest son of 19 years whom has been playing drums since he
    was 8 years has just this past friday had his entire set of drums
    stolen out of there pratice studio. The studio is in Leominster
    Mass. His Drum set is a double bass Ludwig set and the color is
    Red. It is valued at $5,000 dollars, (I signed for the loan) Gawd
    this is awfull. Its 1 and 1/2 years old and had many symbols and stands.
    Over all its I believe its an 11 piece set not including the hardware
    
    He is heart broken.
    
    Along with that, the punks that stoled the set trashed one of the
    guitars, a Cramer I believe and along with that they drove a 
    screwdrive through all of the amps, 2 Marshall stacks and a 300 watt
    peavey bass as well as all of there PA columns. This Pa set up that was
    trashed was worth $13,000 dollars. 
    
    My Son and his fellow band members were real serious about making it
    big time and have spent a lot over the past couple of years as you
    can see. As per their informmation for the police report, total
    estimated damage $17,000...
    
    Who ever did this knew what they were after since the door to enter 
    the building as well as the door into there studio were both alarmed.
    Now get this, the broke a whole into the fucking wall with a crow
    bar to get in. SOunds to me like it could be a rival band.
    
    
    If anyone of you out there in our area hear of any hot drum sets or 
    rumors of someone having one Please let me know. 
    Thanks all.
    
    
    Roger (Rj)

Man, that is terrible.  I hope they catch the little varmints and hang 'em
by their gnads...  More importantly, I hope your son gets his stuff back.

Please tell me the stuff or the place was insured...

?

jc

Geesh!  I live in Leominster !!!

Where was this studio ?  If it's where I'm thinking it is...  

What bunhc of useless trash of a scum-sucking pigs !

If it's a rival band, then they just broke an age old code of ethics.

My guess is they were not musicians.

    You know, in Arabia, they still cut people's hands off for that kind of
    sh*t.
    
    I personally think it suits the scum!
    
    Will 

Really sorry to hear that RJ.  This kind of stuff really sucks!

I can't beleive there are people out there that have so LITTLE disregard
for anyone else on this earth.

>8(

Greg

   Geez Roger, this s*cks.  Really sorry to hear about it.

   It's one level of scum-suckyness to steal someone else's equipment.
   It's about 3 orders of magnitude worse just to wantonly destroy it.
   I hope they find whoever did it, or better yet, if you and Steve
   find 'em.

   Somewhat shocked,

   -- Sam

    The equipment itself was not insured, there just youngsters working
    and trying to make ends meet. The building however was insured. I'm 
    not sure what this will get them but hopefully at least a restart.
    
    Things like this have always really pissed me off. I just can't
    understand how people can do this.
    
    rj

        It's interesting that you think it might have been a rival band.
        I think it might have been junkies.  Perhaps you can follow up
        from time to time on the status of the police investigation, and
        let us know if the culprits are ever brought to justice (or at
        least caught, charged, and tried).
        
        Tom

>       <<< Note 1327.28 by DR::BLINN "Yesterday is a cancelled check" >>>
>        It's interesting that you think it might have been a rival band.
>        I think it might have been junkies.  Perhaps you can follow up
    
        Tom, that hit close to home.  Before we started locking up our mics
    at our church, we had 3 stolen.  It turned out that someone in the
    church had a drug problem and stole them to support it.  
    
    Fortunately, the person is in rehab now and trying to get their feet on
    the ground.
    
    Mike

    
     
    The reason I had mentioned the rivel band is that two nights before
    the gear was stolen they had a couple uninvited visitor while 
    praticing whom somehow got into the building. The alarm was off 
    while they where there but the main entrance door was locked.
    These 2 visitors were from another band who had a run in once 
    before with there now current Bassist and Lead guitarist. They
    told them to get the hell out and 2 days later the incedent
    happened. I just found out today that one of these two has been
    picked up and is being prosecuted for the uninvited entrance on
    breaking an entering charges. What the police believe since this
    person has been busted for this kind of thing before, is that if
    he diddn't do it he might know who did and or have been a part of 
    it to begin with. The entry was illeagal anyway so they think that 
    if they put enough pressure on him that he might scream.
    
    As a rule I don't believe that musicians do this sort of thing but
    ALL rules are subject to be broken. A couple of you mentioned that
    its more likely to be Junkies, maybe they are, that is junkiemusicians.
    Needless to say, I don't care who they are. I just would like to see
    my son get his Drums back and hopefull some how the rest of the other
    members of the band get something for their losses and last but not 
    least.
    
    Hang the little bastards that did it and put them away so they can't
    do it again. I myself have no mercey for this kind of person(s)...
    
    rj
    

                REAL musicians don't do this sort of thing.  Good
                luck and I hope they find the culprits !
                
                Matt
                
                (P.S. - Real Musicians are not poseurs)

    I think those of us that have been around the block a few times have a
    different respect for each other's gear than the younger crowd does
    today.  From what I've seen, mosy young kids into music today have had
    their gear bought for them - I had to buy ALL of my gear when I started
    in 1973 .... so I can appreciate what it takes to get it.  I know some
    young kids that wouldn't rip off their friends gear, but would bag a
    strangers stuff in a minute !  That's why I spend the extra time and
    pack up everything remotely theivable after soundchecks and after gigs.
    I also keep a pretty watchful eye during set breaks - microphones have
    legs !
    
    Scary

                Very good  point  Scary.  My brother and I loaned
                our equipment to  a Methodist Music camp one year
                and he lost two  stomp  boxes  out  of  the deal.
                Since then, we don't loan  ANYTHING out.  (That's
                also when the fuse holder on  my  SUNN  Bass head
                got  destroyed.)  They pleaded ignorance  to  any
                problems or missing gear, and THESE  were  people
                we KNEW !  We learned out  lesson  the  HARD way,
                but  it was nothing like what happened with  RJ's
                son.
                
                When I play somewhere, I take all  my  gear  home
                with  me.    It's  easy  to  trust  the  gear  at
                someone you play withs home, but you also have to
                remember that  they  have  people  that come over
                too,  therefore  increasing  your  risk  of  gear
                disappearing.
                
                1973 ?!?!?!?  I  won't  say  it, I WON'T say it !
                :^)  heh heh heh  (just kiddin' Scary) 
                
                Matt

    I've done what I can to help prevent my stuff from getting ripped
    off. Nothing will prevent it entirely, but...
    
    My name is painted on the back of my amp in BIG letters. It's also
    scratched in various places inside both the cabinet and the head.
    
    My guitar case has my name painted on it.
    
    My bass has my name burnt into the underside of the pickguard. I've
    never been one to buy and sell equipment so this type of "destruction"
    doesn't bother me.
    
    I've customized my synths so that my name comes up on the LCD when
    I turn them on.
    
    ...and of course, both my insurance company and I have a complete
    list of hardware and serial numbers.
    
    Edd

    
    
    	yeah, RJ, what these guys said... really sorry to hear about your
    son's loss of equipment to a bunch of scum-bags (scumbag-ettes?).  I'll
    pass the word, in case any of it shows up this far north.
    
    
    Regards, good luck,
    Steve

related story:
Some years ago,, (i'd have to say 10+) I was in a band where we were
the renters of a building that was no longer used by the company
that owned it (At the time, it was Hunters Sports Wear in Fitchburg, above
the unemployment office..)

Well anyhow, we were the sole renters of the building.. Add to that, Wayne
was good friends with one of Fitchburgs Police Officers, (It wasn't
an ungaurded occasion to hear a knock at the door, only to open the
door and enter two uniformed officers,,  just to say hi,, believe it
or not, that made us feel good   Since we weren't the type of guys who did the 
chemical substance route...   that wasn't problem for anyone, rather a welcomed
event...)  The building aas alarmed and watched close.  Given Hunters, and 
the unemployment office shared the same building,,, that was to be expected.

Not to mention our room was not only furnished with sofas and chairs, it was
also air conditioned, all included in our rent..  (litteraly, one of the best 
setups around..)  plus it would have taken a fork lift to break the door down..

A few years go by and Hunters moves to a new location in Leomsinter off
Route 12.  Some one looking for warehouse storage bought the property
when Hunters Co. put it up for sale.  (minus the unemployement office.)

The new owner then started to sublent the entire building we were in to bands. 
(There was easy, 8 large areas plus ours on the first floor..) not to mention
removed the alarms, not wanting to pay the price...

This is when the trouble began.  Since our rehersals were just that (rehersals)
the only people there was us..  When the new owner opened the flood gates,
they're would be nights when the place was full.  Friends and groupies
were all over the palce.  We started to lock our door once we got in,
cuz many where the times when people (total strangers) would just barge in, 
and try and hang out.. only to be ejected by us within 5 seconds of getting
in...  They probably thought we were assholes, but with the only entrance
to our studio being a 3 inch sheet metal door on a brick frame, we
didn't care.  The cops did how ever, and there was more and more incidents
upstairs in the other rooms...  AT this time, we began to think we'd
worn out our welcome, and considered getting out of there before something
happened..

One night, one of the bands up stairs got hit, and hit bad.  Evidently the
guitar players liked the seemed security of their space, and like the fact
that it was in an industrial section, so they could go there anytime,
day or night, make as much noise as they liked, and noone ever cared.  Given
that, they left their guitars there.  (BIG MISTAKE)  They lost not only
their Mics, power-heads, and effects pedals, but add to that, their guitars.
(According to one of the guys, a few nice expensive babies to boot.)

No insurance... we walk up the to the studios to find out what happended, and
was greated by the drummer and one of the guitar players, with loaded shotguns,
intent on murding the first "M.F." they dind't recognize.. lucky for
us, they knew who we were...

Bottom line,, the people they brought into to let them groove to the
band, and party, were most likely the scum-sucking-peices-of-trash that
broke in.  The thieves new where everything was, and what was hot and what
wasn't.. Some friends..  soon after, we were out of there,,

Suggestion:
And, that's where I'd look to first if I was one of the kids who just
got ripped off..  Who do they allow into their space ? who of them do
they know the least ?  I'd start thinking about that, and asking questions.
Chance are better than not, it's an inside job.

Motto:
Typically, musicians are like pigeons.  They'll stick together on this stuff. 
(at least the ones worth their salt...)


They might not like you, or the stuff you play, or respect your talents,
but most know what it's like to eye a les paul, a strat, a marshall amp,,
for years, until you can afford it,, those guys wont do what they don't
want done to them.. (Most times..)

the ones who do, as far as I'm concerned, suck.

Lifes a hard road full of mean people...  it stinks.. it's reality..

      And I as well hope justice is served and some gear can be recovered.
    It's a shame that in many incidents like this the scum that do this
    get off light. 
      And I'll have to agree with the above. In most cases it's not
    a total stranger that does this and the thieves know what they are
    after.
      Record serials numbers, mark your gear if possible, know who you
    let in to your practice (and hope they don't have a drug habit!),
    let the local music stores know what happened, and in general 
    just be cautious. Things like this shouldn't happen, but ...

    
    	This is sort of related....
    My mate (drummer in our band) is a frelance contracting plumber
    (heating & ventilating stuff).
    
    	He was working on a big job in London with a load of other guys
    like himself just hired in to do the job.  After a while it became
    apparent that someone was stealing tools from their toolkits.  Now I
    guess it's the same in the States as over here proffessional tools are
    expensive & it takes a while to build a comprhensive toolkit for a
    trade like plumbers.
    
    	Well Moke (my mate) and a few other victims did a bit of detective
    work and eventually confronted the suspect & he admitted he was guilty.
    
    They broke his fingers on both hands with a hammer!
    
    	When Moke told me this I was a bit shocked & said I thought it was
    a bit rough justice (thinking about how I'd feel if I could'nt play for
    6-8 weeks or so), he just looked at me dead stern & said "stealing a
    mans tools is stealing his living".  Guess he's right.
    
    	Add me to the list of sorry people here...hope they get whats
    comming to them (the thieves that is).  If you like you can send them
    to Moke....he'll know what size hammer to use (7lb lump sounds about
    right to me)
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.
    

    
    
    
        Don't get me wrong here,  I feel bad about what happened, but...
    
        If it's *your* stuff than *you* had better protect it.  This crap 
    happens all the time.   Check out the note about that fire in, what was
    it, Chicago?   Take it home, or have it insured to the max.  
    
        While at work my car was "hit'n'run".   The cops came by and I told
    them I knew the color of the car and where they worked. Run a DMV on
    the workers, get the color of their cars,  go visit the ones who match
    and 99.9% chance you would arrest someone.  He told me that if he took
    that much time on a little hit and run, ($2K damage) the his capt.
    would have a fit.   So why am I saying this?   The cops are going to do
    *NOTHING* for you.    
    
        If you are lucky enough to catch the ____, give them a plumbers
    hand.   
    
        Rick.
    
        PS:  I will do my best to keep and eye and ear out.  
    
    

    yeah, and know why the sob's won't do anything? Cause they're too busy
    harrassing the public with their damned speeding traps - the lizards!
    
    "sakman" (who has a court date next week to protest a ticket!)

    Stories like this are like a punch to the gut.  It's awful.
    
    On the general area of insurance, I think the sad truth is that
    these days it's simply necessary unless you can stand to lose all
    your equipment.
    
    I take the attitude that if I can't afford to insure it, I can't
    afford it.  I view insurance as part of the cost of the instrument.
    
    I know that if my stuff was stolen, and I didn't get money to replace
    it, it would be much worse than never having had it at all.
    
    	db

    I want to thank you all for the eyes and ears and all of your concerns
    with this theft shit. I also agree with just about all that is being
    said about the non'friends that may have entered being the type that
    would steel there gear. I know and have met most of Wayne's friends and
    just could not imagine them doing that to him. 
    
    I also agree that the cops will probably do shit to get this resolved,
    knowing full well that there to busy ticketing to cover up the states
    errors. If they do, or ever catch them I like Pete's idea about sending
    them to london to visit Moke..Yea!!!
    
    Well My son stopped by yesterday to let me know that the building
    insurance will be giving him $3'000 for his loss. I guess thats better
    than nothing..Its s good restart.
    
    What is weird about the law though that I don't understand very much is
    that this building is a judicial building owned by the court. So why
    are the cops sitting back.
    
    Anyway, Wayne's happy to be getting back at least the three grand...
    
    rj