Conference napalm::guitar

    Well, I'm a believer in tubes, although I HAVE tried running my
    stereo setup using a QSC MX1500 (325w per side into 8ohms). I must
    admit that with all that power it really didn't matter too much
    to my ears that it was not tubes. I didn't use it at a gig though,
    and that's where I beleive that tubes give their true character,
    punch, clarity - when they are PUSHED and heated. 
    
    I would suggest looking into the Mesa Boogie Stereo Simul-Class
    power amps. They are regular rack mounted power amps (for use in
    P.A., stereo, etc..) but were designed specifically for guitar.
    
    They make two flavors currently - the model 295 which puts out a
    very conservitavely rated 95 watts per side into 8ohms - and the
    model 400 which puts out a blistering 200 watts per side into 8ohms.
    
    If you know anything about Boogies, they tend to be "larger than
    life" when it comes to the actual amount of power you will get.
    In other words you'll have so much headroom that you probably won't
    believe it. I am just about ready to order a model 400 for my own
    setup.
    
    Prices - Call Boogie at 707-778-6565. They love to chat.
    
    BTW - Simul Class refers to a patented circutry that Boogie uses
    that combines two types of power amplification methods. It gives
    the amp a little more grittyness and balls. It uses 6l6s in a
    combination with another tube (6EC7 ?) (I forgot and don't have
    the literature or my amp in front of me). Boogie will be more tan
    glad to supply you with the details.
    
    -BAP
    

    For tube power amps, you can check into the following companies:
    
    o Marshall
    o ADA
    o Mesa/Boogie
    
    and for solid state, you can check into the following:
    
    o Marshall
    o ADA
    o Peavey
    o Metaltronix
    
    FYI, I cureently am running a solid state power amp off my tube
    preamp.  Its *ok*, but the SS power amp goes into heavy compression
    with sharp transients.  I hear the Metaltronix ppower amp is cool.
    Its 1 rack space, 100wts/channel, and has a `tube emulator' so it
    doesn't sound so much like SS.  It goes for around $500.  I'd
    like to hear the ADA and Marshall tube power amps though...they
    might be nice.

    The Carvin FET600 and FET900 are supposedly great amps, especially
    for the price. The FET600 puts out 300 wpc and sells for under $499,
    direct. The FET900 puts out 450 wpc and sells for under $599, direct.
    
    From what I have heard Carvin has a very good reputation for reliability
    and value. A friend of mine uses a single Carvin power amp to drive
    his PA speakers (Bose concert series), and has never had a breakdown
    after several years of constant use.
    
    The term FET refers to "Field Effect Transistors" as appossed to
    "Bipolar" transistors. FET amplifiers have a trans-conductance curve
    which is very similar to a tube amplifiers.
    
    Only problem with Carvin is the fact that you have to deal with
    them mail order, and it is almost impossible to demo anything.
    There may be a dealer somewhere around Mass that sells Carvin 
    where you could check one out before ordering direct.
    
    Mark
    

    this is a subject that I've wanted to talk about...I play bass but
    i have always tinkered around w/setups like this.Ive tried running
    carvin,boogie,and marshallpre-amps out to a solid-state power amp-
    a 425wpc qsc, a peavey cs-800 and a powered 2x10"cabinet(210w)and
    have always liked the way they sounded.It seems to me that to avoid
    that compressed sound mentioned in the previous reply,you must have
    enough power/headroom to reproduce the dynamics of the guitar's
    signal-after all why color the sound with a power amp--especially
    after spending some hard earned bread on a preamp and some pedals
    to give you the sound that you wanted? the way to go is to get a
    big enough power amp-and let the other components do their thing
    unhampered and uncolored.
    
    -Bill (bass nut w/420w----looking at 210 more-----maybe!!!)
    

    
    	My take is that most any stereo power amp has much to offer
    for use with guitar. Understand that whatever "sound" you get will
    be whatever sound your preamp could deliver straight into the board.
    
    	This cannot, unless the preamp is a "GT" one or equavalent,
    give the overdriven sound of a push pull output stage.
    
    	It can, however, give lots of "squeeky clean" sound that may not
    have been attainable with the same push pull output which gave the
    nice distorted sound - at that same volume level. Dilemma.
    
    	The GT claim is real. Single ended tube preamps give a "preamp
    distortion" sound, which is not the same as distorting a push pull
    output stage. This can be shown on an oscilloscope.
    
    	I guess the basic advice I have is, get a good preamp, and follow
    that with whatever it takes to go as loud as you feel you need to
    go, in "clean" mode. The stereo people now-a-days are all hyped
    up on equipment exceeding realistic needs by perhaps a factor of
    100. They'll sell their older amplifiers at bargain prices, which
    would do a fine job amplifying a guitar sound.
    
    	The amps that I custom build do not play clean - they all can
    distort their output stages. I dont bother with any tonal controls,
    I just provide an effects loop and pre and post volume. My latest
    can distort either preamp or post amp, to give both kinds of sound.
    A simple graphic EQ in the effects loop can change the preamp
    distortion's tonality easily.
    
    	Joe Jas

    What brands, models, etc. of amps should one look into for a practice
    amp with no built-in effects and a built-in speaker output?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

	Peavey M2600 130 watts @4 ohms stereo,$340 at Daddy's in Nashua 3
spaces high. no fan.

	Peavey M3000 Monural power amp 210 watts at 4 ohms,130 watts at 8 ohms
3 spaces high,with fan.($400?)

	I really believe you need a minimum of 100 watts(+) at 8 ohms.....
stereo or not for most applications. Anything bigger you need to be miked
through the PA. I'm currently looking for a power amp with the above
requirements and I don't want to spend $1200 for Boogie 295. My question
is do I need stereo? (I doubt it) However I'd like to be able to run
a speaker cab to the other side of a stage for other people to be able
to hear me and use monitors for vocals only. You gain this from the stereo
capabilities and you won't blow them off the stage.
	Headroom is really important,and that's a real concern of mine
as it is useless not to have it,but I don't want to break my back either.
	I like Carvin power amps,but I don't need 325 watts what else
do they have? BTW is that 325 watts at 4 ohms or 8? 
	Also does anyone have experiance with Carver and Crown? These
power amps take less rack space which is also desirable......
	I'm sure if you want a smaller wattage amp that a M2600 would
do just fine and they are always available for $300 or less.

							Rick

    I have a co-worker, friend here that is a real audio & Crown nut.
    I'm not familiar with their instrument amps but they are real big
    in the home & studio market.  I'll ask him.
    
    Mike

    I have an AMR PMA200 power amp which is rated at 100wpc/8 ohms.
    AMR is Peaveys recording division, and this amp is basically the
    same as an M2600, no fan, 3 rack spaces, unbalanced 1/4" jacks,
    ddt compression. I have had good luck with it, but I would like
    more power. I plan to keep the AMR amp and use it in my home studio
    to power recording monitors, however I would like a more powerful
    amp to drive my Klipsch stage monitors.
    
    I have checked out the Carver, and Crown amps, and while they are 
    both great amps, with good reputations, they are both rather pricey. 
    Even a Peavey CS800 sells for about $700 new (ouch). This is why I 
    would consider a Carvin FET600 ($469 direct). For my money, 300wpc 
    of FET power for $469 is a lot of bang/buck.
    
    Some of the guys I work with are ham radio nuts, and they claim
    at radio swap meets, they see all kinds of old power amps for
    sale dirt cheap (some tube, some transistorized, everything from
    Heathkit to MacIntosh). I may check out the next one I hear about
    and gamble a few bucks if I see something *interesting*. I also
    hear you can come across old vintage microphones, portable rtr
    tape decks, etc if you look around.
    
    Mark
    

    The Crown nut I work with recommended their PB1s for guitar amps.
    As previously stated though, they are not cheap.
    
    Mike

    
    I have had experience playing a bass rig with the Crown Power Base
    (1? 2? I forget) and also used its bigger brother, the MT-1000, for
    PA.
     
    These things sound great, they are small, they weigh a *ton*.  Except
    for price, you can't go wrong.  Shop around.  The MT-1000 was a
    closeout (they were going to the MT-1200) for $550, a total steal.
    Too bad the band broke up and we had to sell it within a month... 
    8,(
    
    As far as Carvin, I have to take their ratings with a grain of salt.
    Check the load impedances, they rate much of their stuff into 2 ohm
    loads.  Most people will be running only 4 or 8 ohms. It's not uncommon
    to see an amp put out 300 watts into 2 ohms, only 200 into 4 ohms and
    only 125 into 8 ohms. If you don't want stereo (i.e. run a single
    cabinet), see if you can bridge the amp to utilize more of its power
    capabilities.  This is a failing of many of the biampable bass heads on
    the market that use stereo power stages. But Carvin's price for
    watts/dollar is the best in the market as of today. 

    local rag has this ad from the Guitar Shop of Scottsdale, AZ:
    
    "Crown Microtech 1200 - the most widely used professional touring
    amp in the world!  
    
    Stereo:  320 watts per channel - 8 ohms
             500   "    "     "      4  "
             600   "    "     "      2  "
    Mono:   1000   "    "     "      8  "*
            1200   "    "     "      4  "*
    
    * Bridged at ohm loads parallel mode to 1 ohm mono
    
    Fan cooled, 2 rack space profile, 3 year warranty.
    Clean, reliable Crown power for only $996!"
    
    Mike
    

    I didn't know where else to ask this, but...
    
    What is recommended for a rackmountable, mono, power amp?  
    
    Mike

    For what application ??
    Why limit it to mono when you can strap some of these beasts ??  
    
    jc

      I can't attest to the sound or construction quality of any of
    these but here's a few:
    
    	1) Stewart Electronics PA-50 or PA-100. Half a rack space,
    	   bridgable for mono (does stereo). Looks like a big heat sink.
    	   Inexpensive.

    	2) H & K CF-100 Guitar Slave. half space 100 watt Mosfet amp.
       	   Probably a good sounding unit.
    
    	3) Peavey classic series tube power amp. Ooops - this is a three
           space unit. But it is tube, it is mono (60 or 120 watt),
    	   and, of course, inexpensive.
    
    							-bOOm-

    Re: application
    
    I'm thinking of building a lightweight rack setup, but am not
    interested in stereo as some are. ;-)
    
    I'm interested in something that would be good to power a Quattro.
    
    Mike

    I hear that the MosValve automatically bridges to mono if you use only
    one channel of it.  That way you could have stereo if you ever wanted
    it in the future.  It has a presence control in addition to volume
    which might be a benefit.
    
    I was also looking at the H&K Guitar Slave power amp in some catalog I
    recently got.  It's designed to go with their little half slot preamps
    (Cream machine, Crunch machine, Metal Shreader...).  I have no idea
    what it sounds like, but the price seemed decent.
    
    Greg
                             

    Yeah, I gotta put a plug for the MOSvalve...Even though I've never
    heard it, I've heard a LOT about it from people who have A/B'd it
    with the SP1000 (which is NOT cheap, and NOT bridgeable)...
    
    Mike, go for the stereo (or dual mono rather) power amp.  You won't be
    sorry should you wanna go stereo later (once you do, you won't go back
    ;)
    
    Anyhow, MOSvalve is the HOT amp now.  SP1000's are hot, but old hat.
    
    jc

    RE: SP-1000's I've had mine for a month or so now and I'm finding that
    it isn't exactly the cat's a**. As a matter of fact when trying to use
    feedback it rots compared to using the same preamp, and reverb with my
    rivera as the power amp. The rivera allows you to feed and keep the
    tone(pitch rather) and some control the sp-1000 almost always decides
    to 'jump' and octave or so and get high pitched and squeely. Compared
    to the rivera it also lacks control as the rivera allowed me to control
    presence and damping. I think the sp-1000 is a bit too sharp presence
    wise for me...the rivera was (naturally) warm. The sp-1000 is a bit
    cold in comparison.
    
    But the sp-1000 is considerably lighter and smaller.
    
    FWIW
    
    dbii

    The Peavey Classic series amps look like a good choice. They offer 
    several differant models including stereo and mono versions. I have 
    heard (but have not been able to confim) that the Peavey tube power 
    amps will accept either 6L6 or EL34 tubes. If I was in the Market 
    for a power amp for a guitar rig, I'd be looking real close at Peavey. 
    
    As a matter of fact I may be in the market for a power amp for PA 
    and Bass some time in the not-so-distant future. The CS800 looks 
    like a great choice. Peavey sells crossover cans that plug right 
    onto the back of the amp, which split the signal actively, and send 
    the highs to one channel, and the lows to the other. This is a good 
    economical way to achieve a biamp system. CS800's are powerful, too,
    with 400 watts per channel (at 4 ohms).
                  
	There are things that Peavey does extremely well, like power
    amps. They also seem to dominate the semi-professional PA market
    with affordable mixers, EQ's, Mics, speakers, etc. There was a time
    when I (blindly) madmouthed Peavey, but then when I went shopping
    for PA equipment, I found out that Peavey offers the best bang for
    the buck, and their equipment is much better than their reputation
    suggests. I think their reputation varies depending on whether you're
    talking to someone that uses/has used Peavey or someone that has 
    never even tried it.
    
    Mark
    

Has anyone ever heard of the "NRG 125" power amp?  Musician's Friend has them
on sale for $189.88, and they're listed as, "A whopping 125 watts of bruising
MOSFET power in a convenient 2 rack space package."  I'd like to know more 
about them.

Thanks,

-- Sam

Al carries NRG in his shop. They seem to be pretty reliable and they are every
bit of 125W. My other guitar player/singer uses one with his DRX/Quattro
setup and it sounds good.

I think they're a low cost clean power amp. As far as I know none have been 
returned to the store for defects.

we use 'em at rehersal for monitors

dbii

    NRG is from the same folks as the little Quantum practice amps.  They are
    making bass and guitar heads as well as power amps.  I'm not sure if
    they are impoorted or not.
    
    						Brian 

   Anyone have experience with "Stewart" power amps?  They're in a half
   rack space (I'm assuming 1 space height) box, ugly as sin (like Boom
   mentioned way early in this topic, they look like a giant heat sink),
   but seem to be a "too good to believe" value:  $300 for a 200w (in
   bridged mono) amp, new.  They claim that a "switching power supply" is
   the key to their size/power ratio.

   Any comments?

   -- Sam
   

    Switching power supply amps are like Carvers, all the small
    footprint/weight factor models.  I've heard many people claim that they
    tend to run under the claimed specs and are especially poor at handling
    bass response.
    
    All heresay as far as I'm concerned though, I've never used 'em.
    
    Greg

>    footprint/weight factor models.  I've heard many people claim that they
>    tend to run under the claimed specs and are especially poor at handling
>    bass response.
    
    this is a typical characteristic of a lightweight transformer.

    re: Sam
    
    Don't chintz out just for the price, spend a few more bills on
    something that you're sure will work for you long term (and that you
    can resell and get your money back on).
    
    Greg

    The question is this... is the switching capability of the amp's
    power supply faster than the required audio transient response?
    If it is not, then you will lose bass definition.
    
    I for one would not consider any amplifier with such a power
    supply because it seems clear to me that the cost and size
    tradeoff *must* reflect upon the audio quality. The fact
    that the manufacturer attempts to sidestep the tradeoff does
    not mean that there is no tradeoff. I can say this confidently
    without owning or using a Stewart amp. PC power supplies don't
    belong in audio power amps... big meaty transformers with
    large value filter capacitors and voltage feedback regulators
    belong in audio power amps. Power amps should have *hair*. :-) :-)
    
    -b

    Gee, mebbe I don't have discriminating ears (they may have more hair
    than my amps?), but I've enjoyed both my PA200, which I use as a
    monitor amp, and my PA1200, which I use for the mains. No complaints
    from any of the group I play with, and we've used my setup for PA on
    the last two or three times we played out (we're an "occasional" band).
    
    	Bob

    The Walter Woods bass head is switching power supply design.  These can
    deliver up to 400w (mono), weigh in at 7 lbs and could fit inside a
    kid's lunchbox.  These are a top piece of pro gear and deliver all the
    low end you could want.  I also recall an old GP review where the
    benchtest showed better-than-spec'd performance.  So it's not
    impossible to build a good bass system around a switcher.
    
    Of course, the Woods costs big $$$.  At the price mentioned, I'd be
    skeptical too.
    
    /rick

    I suppose I shoulda surrounded the last several sentences of my
    previous post with smileys... but the part of not wanting an amp
    with a switching power supply was no joke... There are many
    issues to be considered, but one must not fall into the equivalent
    trap of assuming that a power amp you can't carry is a good amp.
    Phase Linear should have ended that discussion 20 years ago!!
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    Rick is absolutely correct... there are some good switching
    designs out there. I remain highly skeptical of the principal
    though. The best power amps are the ones that can "store"
    energy and deliver it extremely fast when it's needed. The
    principal of the switching power supply suggests to me that
    by the time the amp figures out that it needs to deliver that
    extra blast of energy, the audio event needing that energy
    is in the past...
    
    All I can suggest is that anyone who's considering one of these
    amps should A/B them with other amps that are not switching designs
    and see if you think the switchers are missing anything...
    
    -b

>    Phase Linear should have ended that discussion 20 years ago!!
    
    You mean the amount of smoke it produces isn't a good criteria to judge
    an amp by?

   Thanks for all the responses so far.  Please keep 'em coming.  Also,
   please allow me to clarify:

   I'm trying to find a power amp to power the low end of a biamped bass
   rig. I'm using a Carvin 150w MOSFET amp into a single 10" speaker for
   the highs.  The new power amp will be used to send the lows to a single
   Peavey Black Widow 18" in a seperate cab.  So I need neither monsterous
   power nor exceptional definition (given that it's a Peavey, after all :-)),
   but I *do* need small size, like 1 full rack space, max, due to current
   rack constraints (and I don't want to buy a new one).  Also, this is all
   just for stage volume and rehearsal, as I plan to DI out from my preamp to
   the board when BIG VOLUME is called for, if ever.

   So, given all that, any suggestions?

   -- Sam

   P.S.  Funny, I always thought the CarvER amps were considered very high
   quality, especially on the home audio front.  No offense meant (of course)
   Greg, that's just what I'd heard.   Almost bought one once, except for
   the $529 price tag...
   

    I'm not offended at all, Sam, just repeating what I've heard (over and
    over and over...) from the pro audio forums that I frequent.  The
    response is almost universal that Carvers don't have the oomph that
    something like a Crown or QSC has, especially in the low end.
    
    Big bottom soaks lots of power, I think your power requirements would
    be at least 200-300 watts to drive a big sub like that.
    
    Greg

   Well, based on some positive info I got off of rec.audio.pro, including
   scope samples and personal use testimonies :-), I decided to gamble on a
   Stewart PB200 200w power amp.  (It was only a $10 gamble - return shipping
   price.)

   I've had it for several weeks now and really like it!  It's small, quiet,
   lightweight, and very powerful.  Meets my bi-amp needs very well.  Oh, and
   when I say it's quiet, it's absolutely _silent_.  My Carvin makes more hiss
   and noise even when nothing's plugged into it.  I'd consider getting
   another of these if I needed a monitor amp or small to mid range sound
   reinforcement amp.  200w mono or 100wpc stereo into 4 ohms, 

   -- Sam

   P.S.  Thoroughbred Music will send you one of these puppies for $319,
         including shipping charges.  They can take a little longer on
	 delivery than some other mailorder houses I've delt with, but have
	 great prices.
   
   	 Disclaimer:  I have no financial interest in Thoroughbred Music.
   

Sam-

I've had my PA200 for nigh on a year now, still quite happy with it. I also have
a Stewart PA1200 and recently got a Stewart active direct box. To date I've had
very good experience with all 3 products.

Bob