Conference napalm::guitar

I'm not a father, but I was once a 17 year old. I guess
that somewhat qualifies me to comment. I don't think it matters what
the qualifications or reputation the music school has, it ain't worth
shit without a highschool diploma. I'd kick his ass back into highschool!
I assume he's only got a year to complete it. Anybody should be able to
cruise thru the last year of high school. I should know, cause I did.
Don't let him off the hook so easy. He'll end up regreting it and so will 
you. When he graduates, let him do whatever he wants (let him pay for it 
himself if you don't approve of the institution).

In any case, best of luck to you and your son. Hang tuff Dad.
Rick

    
    I agree with .1 about getting Mike to finish high school.  Basically,
    you need that little piece of paper in life...it matters!  Also, I
    personally feel that it goes down to a deeper level whereas if a
    student doesn't have the concentration/motivation to finish high
    school, then how the hell is this person going to make any headway in
    the music biz?  Personally, I'd suggest some courses in law and
    business if Mike is serious about `making it'.
    
    It goes far deeper than having good chops, its a business, and you
    have got to be able to think!
    
    Bill B. 

    
    
    Check out 984.* in this conference... the author of that note doesn't
    seem to have made any statements, but some MAIL to him (from you)
    may be of value - just a thought.
    
    							Rich
    P.S.
    	  It's getting so that a *College* degree is how some folks
    look at things - High School is very important. (Dad with a 17
    year old daughter) Gee, did I ever go through these stages?  :^)

    This may be just more of the same, but . . .
    
    	I dropped out of high school to "pursue a career in music" when
    I was 17.  Unfortunately, it's hard to buy equipment, or even maintain
    the heart to play when you're spend your days doing odd jobs & try
    to live on $90/week (this was 1969).  I got lucky - I married a
    woman who believed in me & worked while I went back, finished high
    school, and get a college degree.  But lucky as I am, I'm also 37
    years old, and have to wonder where I might be if I hadn't wasted
    14 years of my life.  I know it's hard to make a 17 year old appreciate
    how important those years will start to appear as time goes on,
    but I think you at least owe it to him to try.
    							joe

    DEAR DAD, If you would like let mike read this, I think it will
    help him make the right choice.
    
    Mike, My name is mark, I'm 21, I'm a guitarist, I play HEAVY METAL
    ,ROCK,JAZZ FUSION,ECT... . I know some people who quit school to
    go into music, they still play in boston and other areas but if
    I go to boston during the day I see them tring to get people to
    park in a parking lot for a few bucks. it's sad but they were not
    thinking of the future. Liston broter don't quit school, you need
    that deploma to fall back on incase if anything happens, PLUS it looks
    good when you do signup for music collage. The smartest thing you could
      do is to keep  practicing and finish school, there will be plenty of time for collage   
   for music collage after high school.
                    
    When you do look into a music collage , look into G.I.T. (guitar
    institute of technology) or even BERKLY I never heard of the one
    that your father mentioned. Belive me it's tough out there. Well
    I hope you make the right choice. staying in school and getting
    your deploma won't hurt you it will only help!
    GOOD LUCK 
    KEEP ON PICKINN..........                                      
    
    
    
            
    
    END
    

    There are some harsh realities of the music business that your
    son may not be aware of.
    
    Lots of kids these days have this idealistic picture of what it's
    like to be a pro.  It is SO FAR from the truth.  The unfortunate
    news is that (frankly) in my experience, there's little chance
    of convincing your son of this.
    
    If your son thinks being in high school is tough... well, it's
    NOTHING compared to the music business.
    
    Right now music for him is a "hobby".  He doesn't have to worry
    about food, shelter, etc.  When music becomes your "job", and
    you depend on it for a living, my god do things change.  For example,
    it is FAR FROM LIKELY that your son will be able to play
    the kind of music he wants to play.  He will have to play whatever
    kind of music puts bread on the table.
    
    Lots of my friends went the route your son is choosing.  For a lot
    of them, music isn't much fun anymore, it's their job.  They barely
    eak out a living, most of them have low paying non-musical jobs.
    And quite frankly, a lot of them have personal problems that
    really just arise out of the fact that they live day-to-day with
    no guarantee (often no hope) that things will ever improve.
    
    It's a very competitive industry.  If your son doesn't have the
    discipline to finish something as "easy" as high school, he simply
    is not likely to have the discipline needed to succeed in the 
    music business.  The discipline requirements for high school and
    the music business are not that different.
    
    So many people want to be musicians, and yet there is only so much
    demand for music.
    
    I also am firmly convinced that he has a much better chance of making
    it IN music WITH a high school diploma.  In order to focus properly
    on your music, you really have to have it together, and most musicians
    I know who are parking cars and waiting on tables for a living have
    a lot more important things to worry about than their music.
    
    He should aim for a solid well-paying job and use THAT job as the
    springboard for his musical career.  In music, you need a financial
    start and a backup alternative.
    
    That means finishing at LEAST high school.
    
    Lots of people here at DEC are in bands.  They use their DEC income
    to support their music efforts (equipment, studio time, etc.).
    
    	db
    

    re: .6
    
    	I agree totally.  I, too have freinds who dropped out and are
    trying to make it selling their music, and aren't living very 
    extravagantly.  I went to a promenent music college for 1 semester
    when I realised that I couldn't cut it.  You gotta have serious
    chops and serious musical knowledge to compete in that game.  That
    really stinks, cause I had the same dream he has, making it with
    music, and know here I sit typing at a computer all day.  I finished
    high school, and then went on to college and still didn't make it.
    I decided to keep music as an involved hobby than a career, because
    it's a nasty business, with lots of nasty people, and above all,
    not very lucrative unless you're very lucky.  That was a real *rude*
    awakening.
                                                           
    Mike?  Don't be an idiot.  Stay in school one more year, you've
    got plenty more to go, besides senior year is always the easiest,
    even *I* slid through, and if I did, you can.  I thought about dropping
    out, and doing the same thing you are, and met some people who had,
    and their lives really blow.  They don't even have a *bed*, Mike.
    They sleep on an old mattress with one blanket.  Pretty glamorous,
    huh?  
    
    
    Sorry for dragging this out to a novel.
    
    
    craig
    

    Most music schools in the U.S. are in a college or university. 
    Which means about one third of program involves courses in English,
    social sciences, etc.  Whoever, has hard time or no patience to
    finish high school is going to find college a night mare.
    
    I don't know of any post high school institute that requires no
    high school diploma.  I never forget when I was 17 years old, all
    I wanted to do was to play the guitar.  I finished high school and
    went to a good music school in Minnesota.  In my first music course
    I was so excited and worked very hard, the teacher complemented
    me once in a while.  I finished the course with a "C".
    
    I felt unhappy about the grade and went and talked to the teacher.
    She said "MY FRIEND IN MUSIC INDUSTRY VERY GOOD IS AVERAGE, ONLY
    THE OUT STANDING PERSON MAKES IT.  IF YOU WANT TO MAKE LIVING OF
    MUSIC, YOU BETTER THINK ABOUT IT."
    
    Today at age of 30, I am a succesful engineer and a fairly good
    guitar player.  I never got a degree in music, however, I kept up
    with.  I can play what I want and don't have to change my style
    for money.
    

    First of all I agree that a high school diploma is a fine idea
    no matter what your inclination ("would you like fries with that?).
    However there should be something said for having the courage
    of your conviction. So when I hear someone suggest that someone
    interested in a career in music get a job in high tech and play
    "Proud Mary" at weddings, I have to wonder about the merits of
    taking advice only from the disillusioned and the hobbyist.
    

    re: .9
    
    Well, Steve, you found us out.  We're all hopeless failures, condemned
    to wear light blue polyester suits with rhinestone trim at weddings
    and bar mitzvahs, playing boring, inaccurate versions of "Spinning
    Wheel", forever addicted to brylcreem and ex-lax.  The cat is out
    of the bag.
    
    I don't recall ever explicitly stating that one should leave the
    axe in the attic until one has a job selling computers, and it's
    safe to take it out.  We'd have a population of guitar players who
    were all clones of Lee Atwater, if that were to happen.  But before 
    you go off to LA with the overmoussed haircut, maybe you should 
    see about getting a job, so you don't have to live in a cardboard 
    box on Sunset.  Or, if you don't want to get a job, get some money 
    together, and get a good pair of kneepads, because 9 times out of 
    10, you'll need 'em.
    
    					-- Disillusioned.
    
    

    re: .9
    
    "Courage of your convictions".
    
    I'm sure we've all often heard stuff like this before and while
    it sounds noble, when you do some objective thinking about it,
    you find that this is just another lousy  excuse rather than 
    a declaration of nobleness.
    
    It's hinged on the idea that having a stable base on which to
    build your music (like high school, a good regular job, etc.)
    instead of going 100% with music is somehow gonna impede you
    musically.
    
    It has been said and demonstrated rather convincingly (here and
    elsewhere, time and time again) that having a solid base (diploma, high
    school, etc.) is FAR more likely to help you in your musical pursuits
    than hinder you.
    
    What does this mean?   It means, if your really seriously and (to
    introduce another bastardized word) "dedicated" to making it in
    music, you will maximize your chances by getting a high school
    diploma and having a good job.
    
    Thus not finishing high school in the name of "dedication to music"
    and "courage of your convinctions" is quite simply, yet another excuse
    for not finishing high school and nothing more.
    
    Besides, the real act of courage would be to finish high school.
    
    	db

    re: .9, .10
    
    > So when I hear someone suggest that someone
    > interested in a career in music get a job in high tech and play
    > "Proud Mary" at weddings, I have to wonder about the merits of
    > taking advice only from the disillusioned and the hobbyist.
    
    There's not much doubt that the opinions expressed in this notesfile
    represent a biased portion of the entire population of potential and
    real professional musicains. We wouldn't be here if we had decided to
    throw all practical considerations to the wind and stake our claims in
    the outreaches of the commercial music industry. On the other hand, it
    seems to me that whatever perspective you are coming from, the
    suggestions given in the replies to this note are sound and should be
    given serious consideration. I don't hear so much sour grapes, as
    caring advice from people who have already faced the hard realities of
    life.
    
    By the way, I don't do weddings, and I haven't played "Proud Mary"
    since I stopped trying to make a decent living as a professional
    musician many years ago. I've created a comfortable situation for
    myself that allows me to play what I want when I want, and artistically
    I find it much more satisfying.
    
    - Ram

    
    On the basis of .0, it does sound like the Music Institute of Hollywood
    could be a rip-off. It wouldn't hurt to call the California Better
    Business Bureau and check'em out.  If your son wants to just take a few
    lessons and jam, he can do that in Mass.
    
    Why don't you suggest that he finish high school here and at the same
    time get involved in the Boston music scene.  It should be pretty easy
    to finish out his senior year.  He should have plenty of free time for
    music.  If he thinks he's ready for Hollywood, he should have no
    trouble finding or forming a band and playing to his heart's content.
    
    Of course, he better be prepared for some stiff competition.  A friend
    of mine manages bands in Boston.  When he advertises for a guitar
    player, he gets tapes from all over the country. Some fine guitar
    players out there trying to find a band that actually makes some $$.
    
    What does he think bands on the Boston music scene make each week? 
    It's probably $100-200 per member if they get steady work.  Could be a
    lot less.  Pa's are expensive. Marshall stacks and tubes are $$, too. 
    Need insurance for all that gear.  Need insurance for the truck needed
    to haul the gear. Need some credit or cash for all of the above.
 
    
    Wait till he runs up against the Boston music scene.  There are plenty
    of clubs that are just waiting to overpay bands 8-).  It may
    even COST him money to play.  The club owners want to see how many
    friends the band can drag in.  More bar $$ for the club.
    
    Which brings up another point.  If he isn't 21 he runs the risk of not
    being able to get into a club to play there. A long time ago a band I
    was in shagged to Maine for a gig, only to have the owner card all of
    the band members.  Our keyboard player didn't have an id.  We played
    without him because we needed the $$.  
    
    
    
    OK, so I'm not exactly raining sunshine about this.  I happen to agree
    with the replies that advocated your son at least finishing high
    school.  Without that diploma (and more!) he's going to have a tough
    life. 
    
    Kevin 

    Are you referring to Musicians Institute (located in Hollywood, CA)?
    This is the (fairly) new title for the conglomeration of GIT (Guitar
    Institute of Technology), BIT (Bass Institute of Technology) and PIT
    (Percussion Institute of Technology).  These used to be associated, but
    not under one name and all have an excellent reputation for quality
    musical education.  If this is the school you are referring to, I don't
    think you'll be "ripped off".  Keep in mind that they *do* have
    entrance exams which one must pass before being allowed to attend.   I
    *thought* you have to have a high school diploma to qualify, but I'm
    not sure. 
    
    In any case, like pretty much everyone else here.  I heartily encourage
    your son to complete at least high school.  Perhaps this could be
    incorporated *with* the curriculum at GIT (so he would be finishing up
    in a CA school) or something, if there's no other way to get him to go.
     
    Greg
              

    
    	Definitely, finish high school, Mike.  Look at the diploma this
    way:  it's AT LEAST a back up strategy...what I mean is, the amount of work
    and energy you will need to pursue a musical direction will be 
    larger than you ever had dreamed, it will not be a steady path to
    an end, as a matter of fact you will put down the axe at times 
    out of frustration I guarantee...therefore, when you hit such turning
    points ( and don't tell me that'll never happen...I can remember
    myself saying the same thing because I thought I was so damn good
    that the world was waiting....then the world got much larger..)
    how will you start again?  Will you start again?
    
    	BRIEFLY, a couple true stories
    
	ME:
        	Finished high school with music awards.  guitar.  wanted career
    in music.  applied to colleges with music depts.  Could figure out
    just about anything on top 40 and some jazz but couldn't read my
    way out of paper bag.  Auditions went great..compliments..until
    they found out no reading skills...see ya...college..needed money.
    found band a 2 hr drive away that made $$$'s.  Played every weekend.
    Gee, guess what our opener was???  !@#$ PROUD MARY.  NOW HEAR THIS
    ***** I HATED THAT, and the whole idea of musical prostitution
    in general BUT I COULD MAKE LIGHT OF IT BECAUSE I WAS USING
    IT TO GET AN EDUCATION THAT IN THE LONG RUN WOULD KEEP ME FED,
    HEALTHY, and GENERALLY ABLE TO PURSUE MY MUSIC without depending
    on it for SURVIVAL ***** and that's where I am today...pretty happy
    with the whole deal.
    
    	BASS PLAYER in aformentioned GB band:
    
    		To this day one of the best and capable I have ever
    heard or had the pleasure of working with...only he's so piss 
    poor because he quit high school and played in bands.   That 
    band was one of the best.  This close to a record deal....then 
    it all fell apart...now he lives in a $100/month apartment, eats
    bulk spaghetti (no sauce), is sick all of the time because he
    smokes too much, and can't hold down ( or for that matter get )
    a decent job.  Plays GB. (yeah....still they do PROUD MARY).
    I'm not making this up...he's a very good friend and still 
    one of my favorite jam partners when I visit home.
    
    	KEYB player In aformentioned band this close to record deal:
    
    	Went to Berkeley, Boston.   There they tell you flat out:
    "If you came here thinking you are ever going to make it big,
     you might as well leave now and save a lot of $$$"  That's 
     a REPUTABLE MUSIC SCHOOL TALKING.  They are trying to make a 
    point when you get in there to cool you down so you can 
    get down to business of becoming a musical person.
    
    
	..AND NOW, THE GOOD EGG:
    
    	Guitar player, I met him when he was 17, he had potential. 
    This was in '82.  Played with bass player above for a while 
    before he lost his drive.....
    
    	  HE FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL. 
    	  HE PRACTICED HIS CHOPS AND LISTENED INTENTLY TO A VARIETY
   		OF PLAYERS 
    	( oh, I should mention...he said from the word GO that he 
           was going to make it at some level, as a musician, but 
    	    he had a good head on his shoulders)
    	  HE WENT TO A LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHERE HE LEARNED 
    	  BASIC BUSINESS/ACCOUNTING, no heavy course load, and 
    	  took lessons at his own pace to get the rudiments down 
    	   and still played in local bands or jammed between bands
    	    but networked like hell and became the one to WATCH 
           amongst the crowd...everyone knew how he was and he 
           loved to play as much as we did and by word of mouth 
    	   he got a lot of work...
    	THEN, ONE DAY ( spring of '84) he said he was going to 
    	G.I.T. in the fall, because he had saved enough money for 
    	a year in calif.
    	WENT to GIT
    	STOPPED BACK HOME from G.I.T '86.
    	HE HAD BECOME SO DAMN GOOD AND CAPABLE THAT I FOR ONE WAS 
    	    ASTONISHED and ASHAMED THAT I HADN'T TAKEN THE SAME 
    	    APPROACH, EVEN THOUGH I'M VERY HAPPY MUSICALLY TODAY..
    	
    	He's got incredible chops
    	he's got an associate's degree that he got along the way.
    	he has provided for lean and rough stuff...I've lost touch
    	with that group recently, but last I heard he was working 
    	and playing, enjoying it like hell and making ok $$'s
    	playing pretty much what he wants.
        
        
    	....Ok this got a little long winded, I just feel that if 
    you are going to make a big decision like this, Mike, look at
    examples of what those before you have or have not done.
    I hope I've at least provided a couple of concrete true stories
    you can mull over.
    
    	at 17, a year or 2 is a drop in the bucket, and you can achieve
        a goal easier if you try to take it slow and run a little lean.
    	Ya don't have to do it all at once....that's not how it gets
        DONE.
    
    	
    end of lecture...
    
    
    JM
    

At this point you've got more than enough inputs I guess to get a "feel"
for what people "out there" think - but oh well, I might as well add my
2 cents (er.. pfennigs) worth to all this..

First, as to your original question - I agree with .14 - your son has
the brochure on the Musicians Institute of Hollywood - which is the 
general name they give to the BIT,GIT,PIT (bass,guitar,percussion..institute
of technology).  It is a heavy duty school - and has cranked out some
great people (who by the way were all pretty great before they went there
too).  So you don't have to worry about the quality of the school.  I thought
about applying to get in recently and also sent for all their info.  They
estimate the cost of 1 year for tuition and living at $12000 - not sure if
you saw that in the fine print.  Its not cheap.  As for my own limited personal
experience with the school - I took lessons once from a guy in Colorado
who completed the course there - he was an AWSUM player, and the best
teacher I've ever encountered.  He said the school was excellent, but 
brutal, in both competetion and workload.  I should also add that at
that time he was 29 years old, living at home in his old bedroom at his
parents house and studying law at night because after 5 years of trying
to make it as a pro musician he also...(per all other replies) gave up
the hassle.

Its so easy, especially for a high-schooler, (as well as grown-ups) to
get so carried away by all the hype of making it in the rock'n'roll music
scene.  If he's quit high school he's probably really got it set in his
mind that there's no other way he's doing anything else BUT study music.-
Its your job as his dad to gently but FIRMLY bring him back down
to earth.  The plain hard fact is that there is just no way he's going
to go anywhere if he hasn't even completed high school.  In fact, nowadays,
if he's REALLY serious about being a musician, I'de have to go even a step
further and say he really ought to have a few years of college under his
belt as well.  If you read about serious guitar players out there - and not
just jazzy guys, guys like Mark Knopfler,Joe Satriani,Steve Vai,Eddi Van Halen,
these guys not only are great guitar players - but they know how to survive 
the  music world and handle themselves as businessmen enough so that people
don't take advantage of them and screw em over.  Its a big step from playing
in a high school band - or "hobby" band to making your actual living from
playing in a band.  Its gonna be a job.

A lot of times you can't really prevent mistakes from happening - and
you learn from them, but this ones so obvious you really should save him
from a lot of disappointment now.  Persuade him to stay in school,
and then to maybe apply to Berklee in Boston - where he can take music as well
as regular college courses. Its the same price as the GIT, and if he stayed
at home it would cost you half as much.  You could even visit the school
and talk to some counselors - instead of just landing in LA and trying 
to survive.  Tell him to check out some of the people that have come
out of Berklee - or maybe even visit some of the rock instructors there.
There are even people who go to the GIT after Berklee.  

I don't blame your kid for wanting to make it - I didn't even pick up the
guitar until I was 20  but I wanted to "make" it too - ever since 
the first time I could play a whole tune.  I'm 28 now, playing in a band
with regular gigs, and I'm going to start studying music next month
at reputable music school here.  Since I have this engineering degree
I can work part time and still make enough money to support myself no
problem.  Its not as exciting as "making" it at 17, but its better than
hating your job.   It sounds like at 17 he's got a lot of guitar already
under his belt - for him there's absolutely no rush - he's got so much
time.  If he doesn't go back to school and grow up a little bit he's not
going to go anywhere.  Even famous rock'n'roll stars have high school and
college educations.

Roy MacKinnon/kbo w.germany

    Lets see if this helps any.  I have a son who will be 21 this fall.
    He eats, drinks and sleeps with his guitar, has taken lessons since
    he was 12 and is a sophmore at Berklee in Boston.  He went to L.A.
    over Spring break to check out GIT along with another school (name
    slips my memory) where he can take a year of M P & E.  He is thinking
    (very seriously) of taking a year or maybe two of at Berklee to
    get in what he needs in LA.  Berklee is a wonderful school and as
    was noted pulls no punches with the students about how many people
    "really" make it.  The reasons for my sons decision is two fold,
    although he is a good student 3.4 grade average he was unable to
    get into the M P & E classes and that is where he hopes to make
    his money to eat and survive while pursuing a career and also Berklee
    specializes in Jazz, and Rock enthusiats find something lacking.
    
    He has a friend who is also a former Berklee student (who also will
    be going back)  who has just completed his year at GIT and the results
    are amazing.  
    
    As far as finishing high school, thats a must, for all the reasons
    already mentioned and the fact that you are not only taking music
    courses at these schools there is English and History ect. 
    
    Will keep you updated as to the decision we make and any other info
    on the school first hand if it happens.
    
    Terry

    Forgive my ignorance, but what is "M P & E"?
    
    Greg

    Music Production and Engineering...

    Thank you!
    
    Why is that a difficult program to get into at Berklee?  Is it because
    it's very popular, or because they are very selective for it?
    
    Greg

    Its difficult to get into because of Berklee's limited resources for
    recording and becuase SO many people want into that field.  You need to
    keep a high grade point average to get in/stay in the program. 
    
    Buck, who has a degree in MP&E

    
    If it's too difficult to get into Berklee's MPE program, you might
    consider  U Lowell. They offer a degree program in Recording
    Technology. I know someone who graduated from U Lowell with a degree
    in recording Technology. Her last semester, she did "apprentice"
    studio work at Eastern Sound, a 24-track studio in Methuen (this
    apprentice work is a requirement to graduate). Then
    she landed a job at Blue Jay, and that's where she's working now
    (and she's getting to know EVERYBODY by working there). So that
    might not be a bad route. Also U Lowell is MUCH cheaper than Berklee.
    
    Hope this helps..
    
    Mike D

    U lowell is a better programm IMHO.  I know another U lowellite
    who landed a job at Blue Jay.

    I went to ULowell in the "RecTech" program, didn't graduate though. 
    IMHO, it is a better program, because first off, Ulowell is a
    engineering school.  The recording profs are EE's before musicians. 
    They can build those decks and boards from capacitor up, never mind
    adjusting an eq, whereas Berklee has millions of dollars in recording 
    studios and equipment, but nobody to effectively teach the design,theory
    and use behind it all.
    
    /c