Conference napalm::guitar

There is a discussion on intonation in note 86. I don't know if it will
answer your questions, but you may want to check it out.

Alan S.

Your problem may be with the fret placement.  I took my Guild acoustic
    over to Richard Stanley with the same problem. (some chords would
    sound great, others wouldn't...) He put a template against the frets
    and found out that the second fret was several thousanths (sp?)
    from where it should be. Consequently, chords that used a note 
    fingered at the second fret (like and open "D") would sound out
    of tune but barre chords played above the second fret were fine.
    
    Unfortunately, the only way to correct this is a fairly extensive
    removal/replacement of the fret.  If you have a bound neck, this
    could cost over $100.00.   If you want to find out if this is the
    problem, throw a capo on at various frets, re-tune the guitar and
    see if you can get everything to jive.   Hope this helps...
    
     Ted
    

    I'm very sensitive to intonation myself, and I'd have to say that the
    guitar that is perfectly adjusted to be in tune at all positions is a
    rare beast. Being a cheapskate, I've never been willing to take an axe
    to a professional for fixing, so I do the best I can to make the
    adjustments myself. If you have an acoustic with a fixed bridge there
    is not a whole lot you can do, other than replacing the strings,
    or possibly replacing the bridge saddle or adjusting the truss rod,
    depending on the design. I'll cover these below. If you have an
    electric there are usually a lot more possibilities.
    
    First of all, let's look at why one chord would be in tune and another
    chord out of tune. It's because when you play different chords you are
    stopping the strings at different lengths relative to one another. If
    the lengths of the strings aren't individually adjusted to the length
    of the neck and the spacing of the frets, the intonation of each string
    will vary for differnet positions. The method of checking a string
    against the neck is to play the harmonic at the 12th fret, then play
    the same string fingered at he 12th fret. Unfortunately, since you
    can't hear both notes at the same time, and since it's a fairly high
    frequency, it's difficult to set things really accurately this way.
    Other than that, I just use trial and error, doing a bit of this and
    that until I'm satisfied with the overall sound.
    
    Here are the specific things you might try:
    
    1. Getting the "right" string gauge. Every instrument is designed with
    some gauge in mind, so some weights will work better on a particular
    instrument than others. While I prefer the feel of slightly lighter
    gauge strings myself, I almost always use somewhat heavier strings on
    my instruments because they seem to provide better intonation.
    Especially if you have high frets, lighter gauge strings will bend a
    lot when they are pressed down.
    
    2. Adjust the bridge saddles. This is where you get the most affect.
    If you have individually adjustable saddles, do each string separately.
    If not, but the whole saddle can be moved, try to find the best
    compromise position. Hit the 12th harmonic, then play the note at the
    12th fret. If the fretted note is higher than the harmonic, move the
    saddle away from the neck. If the fretted note is lower than the
    harmonic, move the saddle toward the neck (I hope I got that right).
    
    3. Actually you should have done this first, which is to adjust the
    bridge height and truss rod to set the neck and action. If the saddles
    are adjustable they will have to be set after doing this. If the saddle
    is fixed, straightening the neck alone might improve the intonation, if
    it was badly warped.
    
    I hope this quick course helps. It is definitely a truism that better
    quality (read, expensive) instruments have better intonation and hold
    their tune better. I guess that's the price of not having a tin ear.
    
    - Ram

    One contributor to poor intonation is an improperly fitted  or slotted
    nut. This is the primary suspect when there is an intonation problem
    on chords with open strings, assuming the bridge and neck are properly
    adjusted, and the strings are good..
    
    BTW, I've worked on hundreds of guitars, and have never seen a guitar
    by a major manufacturer with an improperly located fret.
    
    Danny W.

    ref. 12 fret harmonics and tuning using bridge saddles.
    
    I am a strat owner, and use the following to get the 12 fret in
    tune without having to "memorise" the harmonic. It also helps if
    you own a distortion pedal and use this process since the overdrive
    highlights the "beat" note.  
    
    Use the little pinky to hold down the octave E on the B string 
    ( 17 fret ). Play this and the top E string open. Adjust the top
    E tuning so that the 17 fret B string and open E are exactly in
    tune. Using the distortion pedal will enable you to get them in
    exact unison. Keeping the little pinky on the 17 fret, use your
    first finger to get the top E string 12 fret harmonic. Listen to
    any "beat" and adjust the saddle screw a half turn. Go back and
    re tune the open E to the 17 fret B string, and repeat the process.
    
    This sounds complex put once you try it, you will find it straight
    forward. Now simply repeat the above for each string in turn. When
    you get to adjust the bottom E string use the D string 14 fret as
    the reference. In case it is not obvious, the reference for the
    B string is G string 16 fret, G string  D string 17 fret, D string
    A string 17 fret, A string E string 17 fret, E string as mentioned
    above.
    
    Hope this all helps..
    
    /Dave
     

    > the guitar that is perfectly adjusted to be in tune at all positions
    > is a rare beast.
    
    I agree.  I'm also very picky about intonation.  I don't play my
    Steve Morse model guitar a lot, but one thing I love about it is
    that it IS one of those rare beasts.
    
    re: .0
    
    When I record, I often "bias" the tuning towards what chords I'm
    gonna be playing.  Playing live, the minor tuning problems don't
    seem to bother me too much.  Hearing it on tape can make me
    writhe with pain.
    
    One thing that you should check is to see if the guitar REALLY
    is badly intonated or if you're just bending the strings too much
    or pressing them down too hard (which can cause them to go sharp).
    
    Get an electric tuner (preferably a chromatic tuner) and check each
    fret using as light a touch as possible.  If the frets are pretty
    close, your guitar is fine.
    
    If that's the case, you might wanna consider going to a heavier gauge
    string.   I use 10's on my Morse guitar because I consider it to
    be my "intonation" guitar.   I use 9's on my Carvin because I can't
    bend the 10's as well, so my Carvin is my "all purpose" guitar.
    
    After 3 years of playing 9's (up from 8's) I feel pretty comfortable
    bending them.   In fact, I remember borrowing a guitar strung with
    8's and feeling like I just couldn't play it at all.
    
    	db

    
    
    	I'm no expert but I have noticed something that seems to affect
    intonation on my electric guitars... as strings get really old and
    grungy (I don't let this happen any more), their diameter seems
    to change (as the grunge builds up) and the intonation gets worse
    as the diameter gets larger... dunno why, I just know it happens
    for me.
    
    	Nother thing... I set intonation by making sure that the string
    resonates exactly at the 12th fret.. there's a little eyeballin'
    involved... is their a process that is more accurate??
    
    
    Steve

    What is the trick to adjusting individual string intonation on a
    floyd rose type unit ?
    
    I have a Charvel with a Jackson unit, and it's a pain to try to
    move that saddle *just a little bit*, it's either too much or not
    enough.
    
    signed,
    
    Frustrated nitpicker !
    jc

    As strings get older, they tend to lose much of their tonality,  
    (because of rust, grunge, wear+tear)and after a certain point, 
    intonation shouldn't be done with them because the intonation 
    you get could be way off when the strings are replaced.  I believe 
    the best time to intonate is after the strings have been on about 
    10 hours or so, so they're still new, but they've had time to set in.
    This will insure that you get an accurate intonation.
    
    Craig
    

    My understanding is that old strings can cause intonation problems
    because they don't vibrate uniformly.  This is due to the fact
    that they don't "wear" uniformly (i.e. they get bent a bit right
    above the frets, uneven finger grease, etc.)
    
    	db

    Dave's proceedure outlined in .5 works quite well when you don't
    have a scope to use. Relatively new strings are also a good idea
    as the sustain is better and this makes the process although lengthy
    easier. A correctly tuned instrument is possible with a little
    patience.
    
    Jim
    

    Thanks for the help, I'll try the suggestions in .5.
    
    Perhaps I should clarify my situation - I've pretty
    much tried everything.  I change & clean my strings
    frequently,  and the standard 12th fret intonation
    stuff sounds OK.  I wonder if it's due to fret wear,
    but I really can't see that being a problem unless
    I had some really severe gouges, whereas I've just
    got some minor? depressions.
    
    Perhaps another problem is this:  I'm dealing with
    the infamous Washburn Wonder Bar, which I never
    got specs for... here's a diagram:
    
    ____________     ______o
           A    \ B /   C
                 ---
    The string goes over roller A, which slides and rises,
    under roller B, which is stationary,
    and over convex surface C, which rises -
    I have yet to figure the purpose of (C) out.              
                                        
    Does this inspire any more ideas?
    
    Thanks for all your help
    Jon

    Are you tuning a chord until it sounds good?  If so, that's probably
    the problem.  If you tune one chord to sound perfect, then you've
    'untempered' at least one string, which will make other chords sound
    sour.
    
    Bob

    ref chord tuning......
    
    I agree that tuning to a chord will be a compromise, and that an
    electronic tuner is a great tool. When I was playing in a band,
    here is what I did every night........
    
    Tune up to a B chord ( barre at the 7 th fret ), use an electronic
    tuner if you have one). Then play a (2nd fret D shape) G at the
    7th fret. You will find that the 3rd (G) string may sound a little
    flat, so sharpen it a touch but leave it a few cents below. Go back
    to the barre B and check that the 3rd string is no too sharp. I
    am talking about very slight adjustments here, and have found that
    this compromise is a good one. If you set up the bridge as in my
    NOTE in .5 you will find the barre shapes all the way up to 12 fret
    sound good. Try also an Em7 at the 7th fret, this too should sound
    good. Choosing the 7th fret was no accident for me, since it gave
    the best mid-neck compromise for most of the evenings playing.
    
    My experience is that the compromise between the barre and "D" shape
    was a quick and easy way to get my guitar sounding all-round OK!!!
    
    
    One further tip, probably mentioned elsewhere, I used to boil my
    strings in about two inches of water for about two minutes. I did
    this every second or third gig. Steal an old saucepan for the purpose.
    Take care when removing the strings since they will eventually break
    from mechanical stress at the tuning peg end. Roll them up in a
    3 inch diameter circle, drop in boiling water  for two minutes,tip
    them out,wipe dry, and bung 'em back on. I often used to just take
    the bottom 3 wound strings off, and used a cloth on the top three,
    this helped keep them longer. I used to buy new every 3 months when
    playing about twice a week. Our Bass guitarist used the same technique,
    and was still getting a great "twang" after 18 months !!
    
    Happy "cooking" !!!
    
    /Dave
    

    re: .8  Charvel w/Jackson trem intonation
                                                         
    Jeff, the best way to do this is to check the intonation while leaving
    the locknut unlocked.  Then slack the string before you loosen the hex
    nut which holds the string clamp in the bridge.  If you have the fine
    tuners on the Jackson bridge in the farthest out (back) position it
    helps.  Just loosen the hex nut enough to allow it to barely move and
    grab it by the fine tuner to move it. 

    If you have questions, contact me offline!  If you wanna wait three
    weeks, I'll show you on mine when you come out (or bring yours and
    we'll do it). 
    
    Greg
                 

    Thanks Greg, we'll give it a try...
    
    Still a pain though, eh ?
    jc

    > Still a pain though, eh ?
      
    Well...yeah!  These ARE a pain.
    
    I like the Fender adjustment, which you can do with the strings all up
    to pitch and have a lot of control over, since you can check and do the
    adjustment at the same time. 
    
    Greg

    
    
       
        I own a circa 1976 Gibson Les Paul Standard. The intonation
    is *severely* out of wack. About a year ago, I decided to get the
    guitar nicely tuned up by a "pro" since the intonation was just
    slightly off. When I got the guitar back, it sounded absolutely
    terrible. D chords sounded the worse. You couldn't tune it correctly
    either by ear or with an electronic tuner. They sent the guitar back
    out again and this time it came back a little better, but still alot
    worse than it was originally. I then took the guitar directly to the
    person who did the work (this was at Daddy's Music in Salem, NH) and
    watched as he tried a third time. This time he replaced the nut (I think
    with a graphite type) and tried to set the intonation once again.
    
       It *still* isn't right to this day. Can anyone recommend someone who
    really knows how to intonate a guitar correctly. I'd like to sell the
    guitar (since I haven't played it in a couple of years), but I'd like
    to get it in perfect "running" order first.
    
    -Jeff
                                         

    What shape are your bridge saddles in?  My old STD went intonation
    whacko too, I changed the bridge and had the neck tweeked and all
    was well again.  My saddles were worn beyond intonation.
    
    Check it out.

    If the nut has been replaced, the bridge and neck are the only
    adjustments left.  Setting intonation is relatively *easy* and with
    electronic tuning should correct yer problem.  Sounds fishy to me.
    -1 suggests to check the bridge saddles, they're pretty cheap to
    replace, as a matter of fact, a complete bridge can be had for under
    $25,  I think......
    
    I've seen worn out bridges where the saddles would move, they were so
    sloppily worn.  Setting intonation was IMPOSSIBLE in this situation.
    There's no damage to the neck/body joint is there?  Any flexing might
    make it impossible to even tune the axe, let alone set the intonation
    distances properly.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Steve

    
     Fret wear in spots could through you off...
    
       Bob

    Intonation is primarily affected by the bridge. Most electric guitars
    have an adjustable bridge for precisely this reason. The Les Pauls
    do not have a very large range - if you can't get the intonation, you
    may want to consider a replacement bridge that has a wider range of
    adjustment. 
    
    To intonate:
    
    1: Tune the string.
    
    2: Play the 12th ( octave ) fret.
    
    3: If sharp - back the bridge away.
       If flat - bring the bridge in.
    
    							John.

    
    What part of the bridge is the saddle? The adjustable notches the
    strings sit in?
    
    -Jeff          

    re .23:
    
    Yes.
    								John.

    
    What I'm really looking for are recommendations for someone to tune
    my guitar up. I just want someone who knows what he is doing. I don't
    know enough about playing around with the neck and bridge to be able
    to do it myself. Right now, the guitar is basically unplayable. It
    sounds out of tune on some chords.
    
    Anyone at DEC a semi-expert on the subject?
    
    -Jeff           
    

    I know someone how real good in Milford, N.H. , If that isn't to
    far, send mail and I will give you his number.
    
    I liked the way he set up my Les Paul and my Strat and it was $15
    for the LP and $25 for Strat (he shimmed the neck).
    
    
    Don

    
    RE: .25
    
    Hey, Jeff.  You didn't attend CU Boulder by any chance did you?
    
    J-Dot who_knew_a_Jeff_Arnold_in_college
    

    
    re .-1
    
    No, I went to UNH.
    
    -Jeff
    

    
    I have a question on setting intonation on an Am Std Strat.  On my
    little E string, I have to really shorten the string a lot to get the 
    correct intonation.  That is, the adjustment screw on that saddle is
    extended alomost to the limit of the screw.  I'm using .009's if that
    matters.  Is this a problem or should I take a valium?  
    
    Thanks,
    -pat

re: Pat

As long as you can get the intonation set correctly on all the strings, I 
wouldn't worry about.  If you run out of adjustment and it's still not right
then you have a problem.

Greg

	What he said - if you can still set the intonation yer fine.
	Forget the valium and play a few Clapton lix instead (big fat ;-)))

    
    Thanks guys.  I just thunk of sumpthin'.  Since my trem is pulled down
    to the body (no whammy action here), perhaps I'm having to compensate 
    by letting the little E saddle out to shorten the string?  Make any
    sense?  Dumb question.  What is the relationship between string guage
    and intonation setting?
    
    Thanks,
    -pat

    Patman,
    
    I had that problem once on my Am Std "A" string....I couldn't get the
    intonation set at all.....turned out to be a "bad" string.  A new
    string fixed it!  Go figure....
    
    Steve

    
    re: Steve (Steve lives!)
    
    Yeah, I remember that, but this is the little E (yours was wound).
    I showed it to Scary yesterday morning (our guitars get lonely out 
    in the car, right Jerry?) and it tested fine - must have been a
    disturbance in the force.
    
    

    Nope, can't leave your axe in a 120 degree car all day - talk about
    intonation problems ...
    
    I think it was a sunspot that made your Strat go temporarily silly,
    but, all's well that ends well ....
    
    Scary (who's got some sore mits after this weekend's gig ...)