Conference napalm::guitar

    I know very little about the history of the Les Paul. The only
    interesting facts I can offer about its development are:
    
    Les used to buy Gibsons direct from the factory, just to bastardise
    them for the parts. Apparently, the powers-that-be at Gibson wouldn't
    tell their luthiers when a guitar was destined for Les, as the luthiers
    would get upset that the fruits of their labours would never get
    played, just cut up...
    
    The original Les Paul was a flat-top. Gibson modified the design,
    as they were the only company with a machine that could produce the
    arch top on a solid body. I think Les still uses an original flat
    top version.
    
    Nick

    The original "Les Paul" was actually built in the Epiphone factory
    on weekends. It was called "The Log" because it had a solid piece
    of mahogany which was the first "neck-thru" solid body with the
    "wings" of an Epiphone guitar glued on to make it look like a guitar.
    Basically he wanted amplification without the feedback, which was a
    problem with hollow bodied guitars.
    	Some good books which describe this in great detail are Tom
    Wheeler's "American Guitars" or "The Guitar Handbook" published
    by Guitar Player magazine.
    	Les Paul was way ahead of his time in many aspects of making
    music. He built guitars, developed recording techniques, and made
    amazing use of his talents on the guitar. There is an album that
    is a great showcase of some of his talents called "Early Les Paul"
    which contains many songs from the late '40's which are as amazing
    now as they must have been to young guitarists of the early '50's.
    	Carl Perkins recalls trying to emulate the echo sound that Les
    had (Not realizing that he used tape echo!) and actually does a
    great job of it on the Cinemax sessions "Carl Perkins and Friends".
    (A great show!) Cinemax also had a Les Paul special which I have
    not seen yet that is supposed to be equally wonderful. (Anyone have
    a tape of it I could borrow?)
					Tom T. (A_DIE_HARD_LES_PAUL_FAN)

>    < Note 1092.2 by TARKIN::TTESTA "You load 16 tons, whattaya get..." >
>    	Some good books which describe this in great detail are Tom
>    Wheeler's "American Guitars" or "The Guitar Handbook" published
>    by Guitar Player magazine.
    
    Where can I find a copy of "The Guitar Handbook"?

    Les also made the 1st recording that had a primitive reverb added
    to it.
    
    Anyone know "how" he did it?   I do!
    

    
    Re: .4
    
    How much will it cost us to get you to tell us what you know???
    
    
    Next time you're in the mall, check the cassette bargain bin for
    a Capitol budget tape of Les Paul and Mary Ford.....probably entitled
    "All Time Greatest Hits" or some such.  It's usually about $3 or
    so when I see it.  It has nine of their big smashes from the 50s.
    
    Sounds like what the Jetsons must have listened to....

    RE: .4
                           
    Nothing Brian. It's free!
    
    He had a large bathroom, so he tiled it! 
    Then he recorded himself in the bathroom.
    
    Strange, but it worked.
                                                

    re.2 I have the Tape, and would be happy to make a copy.
    
    re.4 For those of you who haven't noticed yet, tiled bathrooms are
    great places to play!!! Try playing an acoustic guitar in one and
    you'll see what I mean!

> Note 1092.3  by PNO::HEISER "Montana, the Bradshaw of the '80s"
>    Where can I find a copy of "The Guitar Handbook"?
    
    	I found one at Waldenbooks a while back. It's around
    $20 if I remember correctly. You may have to have them order it.
					Tom T.

    As usual, I disagree with the popular view.
    
    While there is little doubt that Les Paul has made huge contributions
    to music and the guitar, I am of the opinion that his involvement
    in the original Les Paul Guitar has been significantly overstated
    by Les and an uncritical music press.
    
    My opinion is based on published interviews with Ted McCarty and
    Julius Bellson of Gibson, as well as conversations I had in the
    '60's with Gibson's Bellson, Bruce Bolen and Ken Killman.
    
    They all have stated that Gibson designed the Les Paul with no input
    from Les, except that they used his combination trapeze
    tailpiece/bridge and probably his idea for the "Fretless Wonder"
    frets.. They were looking for a way to compete in the solidbody
    market against Fender, designed the guitar to take advantage of
    Gibson's archtop skills, and went to Les strictly as a marketing
    ploy, since he was a player with appeal to country, jazz and pop
    audiences.
    
    The evidence in Gibson's favor is that, at the time the Les Paul
    was released, Les was not playing anything that even remotely resembled
    the  Gibson Les Paul. His "Log" was crude compared to what was already
    available commercially from Rickenbacher at the time. Early Les
    Pauls used pickups (slightly modified)  and wiring  already available
    on other Gibsons. Les's tailpiece was a disaster and soon replaced
    with the stud bridge and stop tailpiece, which was clearly invented
    by Gibson. Patent records also clearly point to Gibson  people as
    the inventors of the maple top/mahogany body , the pickups and the
    overall body design. 
    
    The Gibson closest to what Les usually plays is the Les Paul Personal,
    produced in 1969. This had low impedance, stacked humbucker pickups
    (definitely Les's design), a shallow, but not flattop,  all-mahogany
    body, versatile passive electronics (also Les's) and an Amphenol
    mic jack and mixer control on the bass edge of the upper bout, perfect
    for doing your "Rhubarb Red" medley. This guitar, and the Les Paul
    Professional (a cheaper model), as well as the Les Paul Recording
    which followed, were some of the biggest sales duds Gibson has ever
    had. The crisp, clear, hifi sound coupled with the Fretless Wonder
    neck gave most guitarists fits.
    
    This leads to Weber's 76th law: "Everyone worships Les Paul, but
    no one really wants to play his guitar".
    
    Danny W
    

    re. primitive reverb techniques, I heard that Duanne Eddy used
    a really funky method of producing reverb. He took a 275 gallon
    tank, cut a hole in the side and installed a speaker. He installed
    a mic on the other end of the tank. He pumped his sound into the
    tank, and monitored the sound coming from the mic. He used this
    technique on some of his early recordings.  This is suppossedly
    where the term "echo-chamber" originated.
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    Lets try to get this thing back on track . . .
    
    Does anyone know the order of technical changes made to the LP after
    1952 production began?  The trapeze was eventually replaced by the
    'stop' tailpiece and the tune-o-matic bridge.  Humbucking pickups
    replaced the single-coils.
    
    As an aside, the original LP pickups were P-90 single coils.  Are
    these the same as what are known as soap-bars, or is there a
    difference?
    
    Interestingly, the PAF humbuckers which Gibson makes today are not
    the same as the original humbuckers.  The PAF's are electronically
    altered during manufacture in an attempt to artifically age them
    and make them sound 'vintage'.  They also do currently produce a
    humbucker built to the original specs, but I don't know of any
    guitars that come stock with them.
    
    The Les Paul line also branched into many different models:
    Standards, Customs, Juniors, Specials, Deluxes, Professionals,
    Personals, Studios, Recordings, TVs . . . which offered an array
    of different body styles, pickups, woods . . .  Anybody know any
    specifics about these different models?
    
    The original necks were 1-piece. Gibson also started building
    3-piece necks as well, which to my understanding, were inferior.
    Some of the necks had a peculiar 'lump' on the back right where
    the neck meets the headstock.  Anyone know what that was done for?
    
    From what I understand, the most highly prized Les Pauls are
    Standards which were built between 1957 and 1960.  I recently
    visited a store called Lark St. Music in Albany, NY which deals
    in vintage instruments.  They had a 1958 sunburst model in very
    good condition for which they were asking $8500.00 - I tried not
    to flinch when I was told the price.
    
    Oh well, I feel like I'm starting to ramble . . which is exactly
    contrary to why I started this reply, So I'll finish in the hope
    that there will be additional input to this topic.
    
    Ciao,  Steve

    
    The Tom Wheeler "Guitar Book" has a good chronology of Les Pauls
    and SGs.  The model names and styles are confusing at best.
    
    For instance, while many call some old Les Pauls "Standards" that
    term was not used by Gibson until the 60s.  Then there are the
    transitional models, SG Juniors that look like the double cutaway
    Les Paul Jr. and Les Paul Standards that really SGs...jeez.
    
    The basic models as I remember it:
    
    Custom:  Black body, two or three pickups.  Gold hardware, in 1957
    or so, they started appearing with humbuckers.  Went to white when
    Gibson came up with the SG body.  Block inlays, binding.
    
    Standard:  Gold-tops, sunbursts.  Humbuckers starting around 1957.
    Went to cherry red with the SG body.
    
    Junior:  single cutaway, single P90 pickup.  TV model was the same
    model with a limed green finish.  Changed to "SG" but with same
    body 1959 or so, then in 1961 (???) went to SG body.
    
    Special: double cutaway, two pickups, otherwise like the Jr.  
    
    Then in the late sixties when the demand for Pauls coerced Gibson
    into coming back into production, they came out with lots of new
    models such as the low-impedance Personal/Professional/Recording
    line (basses too!!!), the hollow-bodied (!!!) Les Paul Signature
    guitar and bass.  It's really pretty confusing.  That's why I play
    Fender  8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)

    In 1975, I was in The Record Garage on Elliot St. in
    Cambridge, Ma. Jack Griffin, the owner, showed me two Les Pauls.
    One was a 1951, it was all gold and identical to an ES 175 with
    the "Les Paul Model" endorsement on the head stock. I don't remember
    if it was a semi-hollow or a true hollow body. It had two P 90's
    with covers that screwed down on the body. I can't remember what
    kind of bridge or inlays on the neck it had. The body and neck had
    cream binding and the neck was wide and fat. Jack told me that this
    was this Gibson's first shot at the Les Paul.
    The other one he showed me was a 1952. It also was all gold, front
    back, neck, everything but the fretboard and front of the headstock
    with the endorsement. These were supposedly the earliest models
    because sometime after production started, they changed to a stained
    finish on the backs and necks. It had the trapeze bridge, and other
    than that, the thing was identical to the ones we know and love.
    	There was this rock and roller who worked for Jack who was in
    a band called Baby's Arm, and he ALWAYS had nice guitars. He always
    had a different '58-'60 sunburst when I saw him play. He bought,
   sold, and traded nice axes. Then one time I saw him play in Worc-
    ester, and he was playing a Mary Ford Les Paul. The Mary Ford is
    a Les Paul finished in cherry, same as the SG cherry, front and
    back. These are more rare than the sunbursts. According to Gibson
    only 1700 sunbursts were made, and many cannot be accounted for.
    Gibson got the idea for the carved, book-matched flame maple top
    from violin construction. Check out the back of one sometime.
    Noone knows how many LP Mary Fords were made, noone kept track.
    I saw George Harrison in 1974 at Boston Garden and he had one.
    BTW, the humbucker was introduced on the gold top in May of 1957
    as an option. The slanted stop tailpiece/bridge in 1954; The Custom
    in 1954 with Fretless Wonder frets; The Tune-o-matic bridge in
    1956. The first sunbursts came in late 1958 and had fat necks.
    The '59's and '60's had much thinner necks and are more desirable.
    All came with Humbuckers. No gold tops were made again until
    1967, these were the same as the earlier ones, but humbuckers
    weren't an option. These were only available for two years
    when the Deluxe took over in 1969. The single cutaway Les Paul
    line was discontinued in December of 1960 when the SG style
    took over until 1962 when the Les Paul endorsement on the head-
    stock was replaced with a crown inlay.
    	The original LP Customs had a bridge PU that was similar
    to the P 90, but had square polepieces. The Humbucker became
    standard on LP Customs in 1957. Some were made with three PU's
    like Keith Richard's.
     
	Neal
    
        	
    
    
    

    	Does anyone out there know a method of dating a Les Paul?
    I remember seeing something in "The Guitar Player's Handbook" a
    few years back with a list of various serial numbers and their
    respective years.  Is this all inclusive?  How accurate is this?
    I have a burgundy L.P. with wide frets (is this a Fretless Wonder?)
    and would like to know the year it was manufactured and possibly
    it's value.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    
    						Brad
    

    	Re .-1
    
    	If you list the serial number here I will look it up for you.
    The more recent Gibsons (~1975 - present, eight digits embossed in the
    back of the headstock, between the tuners) have the year and factory it was
    made (Kalamazoo or Nashville) encoded in the serial number.
    	The first and fifth digits comprise the year of manufacture, and
    the last three digits denote which factory. (000-499 = Kalamazoo,
    500-999 = Nashville) as in the follwing example (My Les Paul):
    	Serial # 71239588 shows that it was made in 1979 in Nashville.
    Although I bought mine new in 1978, the serial number shows manufacture
    in 1979, I suspect that must be fiscal 1979 and not calender 1979.
    	If yours is older than about 1975 (stamped in paint), it could be a
    nightmare trying to find out because at one time there were 3 different
    numbering schemes being used at the same time.
					Tom T.

    Reading through all these replies has kept me chuckling. What an
    interesting mix of fact, fiction and speculation!
    
    The gold ES-175 is an ES-295. The first ones did say Les Paul, but
    they were never marketed as LP models by Gibson, and the LP decal
    and tailpiece were dropped rather quicly.
    
    Gibson made all-gold bodies throughout the '50's, as well as goldtops.
    
    Soapbars are P-90's in disguise. The square polepiece jobs are alnicos.
    Some LP Customs had all P-90's, some all alnico's, some a mix.
    
    Gibson never made a "Mary Ford". The cherry LP's were just cherry
    LP's. 
    
    The bump on the back of the neck is a "volute". It dates a guitar
    to from mid 1970 to the mid-'80's. Its purpose is to strengthen
    the headstock, but it really doesn't do much but look ugly.
    
    Dating Les Pauls is easy. The modern 8-digit code helps, but there
    are many general features, such as stamped, vs inked #'s, the volute,
    body size and arch, "made in USA" stamp, wiring, headstock overlay
    material, inlay material, logo,headstock angle, neck angle binding,
     tuners, neck material and construction and
     Probably a few things I can't think of right now. Of course, there
    have been a number of high quality reissues to cloud the water.
    
    "Fretless Wonder" frets are very shallow and not all that wide.
    They were used on LP and SG customs. Guitars made since the early
    '70's have standard Gibson Jumbo frets.
    
    Danny W
    

    > Dating Les Pauls is easy.
      
    It sure is!  I took one to a movie just last week...
    
    Greg

    Did you do any necking?
    
    Danny W

    I had my hands all over her.
    
    Greg

    re: 16
    
    The eight-digit serial #'s Gibson used from 1975 to 1977 did not
    have the dates encoded. '75 numbers start with 99, '76 with 00 and
    '77 with 06.
    
    The date-coded ones start in August '77. The second through fourth
    digits are the * calendar* day of serialization, so your guitar
    was not shipped from the Gibson factory until may, 1979.  I can't
    explain how you purchased it in 1978; perhaps a time warp was involved.
    
    All LP production since '83 has been in Nashville, so there is no
    significance to the last threee digits anymore.
    
    Serial numbers have been stamped into the back of the headstock
    since 1961. Before that they were inked on.
    
    And to correct a typo in one of my earlier replies: Volutes were
    discontinued in mid-1981.
    
    Danny W

    	Now that I think about it, I remember reading all that about
    a julian date being in the serial number...But I did buy my guitar
    in the end of '78 at Guitar Center in San Francisco and the serial
    number indicates that that is not possible.
    	I also read that previous to that scheme, there were sometimes
    (often) duplications or omissions in the sequences of serial numbers
    so production quantities may not reflect reality.

    re: -1
    
    Just curious, are you talking about the guitar center in Oakland?
    Close to SF, but just curious if they had 2 different stores?
    
    Buck

    	Nope, San Francisco. Used to be on Van Ness, but it has since
    moved. There was(is?) also one in downtown San Jose and several
    in L.A. They are a chain outfit. I had never seen so many guitars
    in one place in all my life.
    

    Okay, here it is through 1961:
    
    1952: Introduced as the Les Paul guitar, the original has a mahogany
    body, 1-piece mahogany neck, carved maple top, gold finish, rosewood
    fingerboard with trapezoid inlays, Les Paul decal on the headstock,
    two p-90's without mounting ears, and trapeze bridge/tailpiece.
     No serial 	numbers. Let's call these Goldtops
    
    1953: Modified to 1-piece stop tailpiece/bridge. Neck pitch is
    increased to accommodate change. Serial numbers added.
    
    1954: LP  Custom introduced. Carved mahogany body without maple
    top. Multiple body and headstock binding, ebony fingerboard
    with MOP block markers, Super 400 headstock inlay, larger
    headstock,LP Custom truss rod cover,  stop tailpiece with
    TOM bridge, black finish, gold plating.  Alnico pickup at
    neck, P-90 at bridge (made with other combinations, perhaps
    as custom orders).
    
    1954: LP Jr--flat mahogany body, Single P-90 with ears, sunburst
    and ivory finishes, unbound neck, dot markers.
    
    1955: Goldtop gets TOM bridge and stop tailpiece.
    
    1955:  LP Special--like Jr. with 2 P-90's w/o ears, bound neck.
    
    1957: LP Jr in Ivory finish now called LP TV
    
    1957:  Goldtop gets 2 humbuckers.  Custom gets 3, though some are
    made with 2.
    
    1958: Goldtops becomes LP Standard, gets sunburst finish.
    
    1958: Jr & TV get rounded double cutaway. Cherry finish available.
    
    1959 : ditto Special
    
    1960: Become SG TV and SG Special--still rounded body.
    
    1961: Custom and Standard get sharp SG body and are not seen again
    until 1967.
    
    
    Danny W.
    

    The next two decades:
    
    1961:  LP Jr. gets sharp SG body
    
    1964: LP Jr. discontinued
    
    1968: LP Custom re-introduced with carved maple top
    
    1968: Goldtop re-introduced as Les Paul guitar.
    
    1968: LP Deluxe introduced--is Standard with small humbuckers.
    
    1969: Les Paul guitar discontinued.
    
    1969: Les Paul Personal introduced. Mahogany body w/o maple top,
    low-z pickups (needs external transformer),  phase and tone switches,
    mic input w/mixer, trim like LP Custom.
    
    1969: Les Paul Professional introduced. Similar to Personal, but
    trimmed like Deluxe.
    
    1969: LP Bass--bass version of LP Professional w/30" scale. Often
    erroneously called "Recording Bass". 
    
    1973. LP Recording replaces Personal & Professional. Similar to
    Personal, but with built-in transformer, rosewood fingerboard, chrome
    hardware.  This marks a low point in LP quality.
    
    1973: LP Triumph Bass--bass version of Recording Guitar. w/30" scale.
    Often erroneously called "Recording Bass".
    
    1974: LP Standard re-introduced. Same as Deluxe w/ standard humbuckers.
    
    1974: LP Signature: Semi-solid, mutant 335 shape, goldtop, Low-z
    pickups. Trimmed like LP Standard.  Also matching Signature Bass.
    I won't even mention the LP Jumbo low-z acoustic!. Maybe this marks
    the low point.
    
    1978: LP 25/50 intro marks start of renewed commitment from Gibson
    to produce quality guitars. Fancy version of Custom, with S400 style
    fretboard inlay, abalone LP headstock inlay, gold & silver hardware.
    All the low-impedance guitars are dumped.
    
    1978: LP Artist. Similar to Custom, with active electronics, including
    compressor & expander.
    
    Next installment when I feel like it. This is pretty boring, so
    I might have missed a few variants, but what do you want for free?
    
    Danny W.
     
    

	RE .26:  Boring?!  Not to those interested parties (me for one)
	who don't already have all this background knowledge!  Thankyou
	for sharing the information even if it is just history now.

	As an aside, here is a technical question on P-90 pickups: Does
	the soap-bar style have a height adjustment other than the pole
	pieces themselves?  There are two screws in between the pole
	pieces - are these for cover attachment, pickup mounting, height
	adjustment or a combination?  If not for height adjustment, is
	there an internal adjustment?

	Also, as another section on various LP's, I'd be interested in
	knowing what 'special edition', 'anniversary' or 'reissue' models
	have been offered, and any approximate production numbers.

	I'm told there was a 20th anniversary, which was a black custom.
	Would this have been 1972 (20th for Gibson Les Pauls) or 1974
	(20th for the fretless wonder)? There was also a 30th anniversary
	Goldtop (1982?).  There obviously was no 10th anniversary due
	to no LP production (other than SG's) in the early '60's.

	Wonder what they'll do for the 40th . . .

	Steve

    P-90's are not height adjustable.
    
    Gibson's anniversary editions range from standard production with
    anniversary plates to extremely fancy special models.
    
    The 20th LP came in all colors-virtually all 1974 LP Custom production is
    marked with a 20th anniversary inlay. This is the only thing
    distinctive about them. They have no special value.
    
    The 25/50 is obviously very duded up. Over 3000 of them were made.
    The have been rising in value recently.
    
    The 30th Goldtop is strange in that it is closer to a 57 Goldtop
    than a 52, since it has humbuckers and a TOM. Two models were made,
    one with a 3-piece neck, the other with a 1-piece. These are worth
    a little more.
    
    During the '80's, Gibson has been producing a variety of limited
    edition LP's, with unusual paint jobs, weird woods, contrasting
    center stripes and other bizarre changes. Too soon to say what any
    of this means.
    
    Danny W. 

    I just thought of two unusual LP's I neglected to mention:
    
    LP Artisan: This is a fancy version of the Custom, with hearts &
    flowers fretboard and headstock inlay. Produced from  the mid to
    late '70's. Early versions had all-mahogany bodies and three
    humbuckers, like '57 Customs. Later ones had carved-maple tops and
    either two or three pickups.
    
    These were not very popular, and are fairly rare, but there is still
    not a big market for them. Most had walnut finish, but sunburst
    and black were also made. The Artisan is sometimes confused with
    the Artist, and which it resembles not at all.
    
    The Les Paul: the most expensive LP ever catalogued, this is the
    Custom taken to the limit. Most parts that are usually plastic are
    rosewood--pickguard, pickup rings, knobs, binding ,  headstock veneer,
    access plates, toggle surround and handle.  The fretboard is a
    combination of rosewood and ebony, with red purfling and block abalone
    markers. The headstock inlay is the usual split-diamond, done in
    abalone. Tuning knobs are MOP.  Hardware is the Schaller wide-range
    TOM with a TP-6 tailpiece and two humbuckers.
    
    The body in entirely curly maple.  Unlike the L-5S, it is 2" thick,
    so this is one heavy guitar! Most of these have very highly figured
    tops, sides, backs and necks. Finishes were natural and wine red.
    
    Actual production numbers of these is debatable, but appears to
    be less than 20.  I've seen prices from $2.5k to $10k. I have no
    idea what the actual value is, but suspect the lower number to be
    closer to the truth.
    
    The Les Paul is sometimes confused with The Paul, a bottom-end guitar.
    Why Gibson's marketing department their most-and least-expensive
    Les Pauls virtually identical names is one of the great mysteries
    of life.
    
    Danny W. 
    

    re .15
    
    	I finally got around to posting the serial # of my LP.  I couldn't
    make heads or tails out of it using any of the dating methods mentioned
    already.  The number is embossed in the back of the headstock, between
    the D and G string tuning machines.  The magic number is:
    
    				551485
    
    	If anyone has any idea of when this was manufactured, I would
    appreciate any reply (even an educated guess would be welcome).
    
    						Cheers,
    					       	 Brad

    Re: -.1
    
    If your guitar has "Made In USA" stamped behind the headstock, it
    is most likely made in 1975.
    
    Early '70's numbers are inconsistant, with much duplication, so
    it is usually necessary to consider all the details and features
    of the instrument to be sure, but 500000 numbers generally were
    used in 'the mid-to-late '60's and in '75.
    
    Danny W.

    re -.1
    
    	O.K., here's what I can tell you.  It is a custom with that
    looks just like any other custom I can think of - the square pearloid
    (s.p.?) fretboard inlays, "Les Paul Custom" truss rod cover, ect.
    The color is bugundy (wine?), not a very common color - at least
    I haven't seen any others like it.  The frets are super wide and
    flat, and boy do they play like butter!  Two pickups, standard 
    electronics (four knobs - 2 volume and 2 tone, 3 pos. pickup switch), 
    standard bridge and stop tailpiece, archtop body with one piece neck. 
    
    	Well, that's all that I can think of at the moment.  Bottom
    line is that it looks just like every other custom, except for the
    color and the wide frets.  I don't known the exact weight, but it
    sure is solid and heavy (and right on!).  I hope this helps a bit.
    
    						Brad
    

    Re:-.1
    
    Need more info: does your guitar have a volute?. Are the words "made
    in USA" stamped behind the headstock? Is the peghead veneer wood
    or plastic?
    
    Wine red has been a fairly common Gibson color since the early '70's
    
    Danny W.

>>>    RE:		< Note 1092.26 by MOSAIC::WEBER >
>>>
>>>    1973: LP Triumph Bass--bass version of Recording Guitar. w/30" scale.
>>>    Often erroneously called "Recording Bass".
    
    I have one of these and, on the truss rod cover, it is labelled as Les
    Paul Recording Bass.  I also seem to remember a Guitar Player ad when
    these were released where the 6-string and the bass version were called
    the Les Paul Recording Series.  Perhaps its only erroneous according to
    the catalogs or order sheets?
    
>>>    Re: -.a few (The Les Paul)
    
    Steve Howe in his last years with Yes was one of the people who
    played "The Les Paul" (along with the rest of his army of guitars.
    
    - John -

    Re: -.1
    
    My Les Paul Triumph Bass says Les Paul Triumph on the truss-rod
    cover, so does all Gibson documentation. Does your cover actually
    say the word Bass, since it is possible they used a cover from the
    guitar.
    
    Gibson has often mislabelled their own guitars--for example, most
    L-5S covers say L-5 Custom. In addition, I have two 1981 ES-355's
    that have 335 labels inside. Regardless, Gibson never officially
    made a "Recording Bass", but it is easy to see why it is popularly
    called that.
    
    Danny W.

    Re: -.1
    
>>>    Does your cover actually say the word Bass, since it is possible they
>>>    used a cover from the guitar. 
    
    I'll check when I get home.  I'm pretty sure it does, though.  And
    I thought it looked "official" (i.e., not home made).  Gee, would
    this make a valuable "collector's item"?  (insert many smiley faces)

    - John -

    re: -1
    
    I'd believe Gibson made truss rod covers with the incorrect name
    on them, since their Marketing and Manufacturing departments seemed
    to never be on speaking terms. Luckily, us high-tech companies are
    never guilty of this.
    
    A recent example--Gibson 340L strings are too short to be used on
    Gibson archtops! I had to tell their head of string production how
    long to make the G & D strings (which he has promised to change,
    and send me some sets for verification). Don't ask what they string
    their own guitars with--probably D'Addario's, like I do.
    
    Danny W.

    	O.K., now for the $64,000 question: What's a volute?
    
    	The top of the headstock I believe is plastic, and "made in
    USA" is stamped on the back, below the serial number. 
    
    	I honestley can't remember seeing another wine red LP before.
    I guess I don't get out much!  Thanks for the help.
    
    			                        Brad

    OK, so my memory isn't what it used to be...
    
    The truss rod cover on my LP bass says, "Les Paul Bass".  There
    is no mention of it being a "Recording Bass" or a "Triumph Bass"
    anywhere on the instrument.  Thus, it's easy to believe that it
    really was called the Triumph bass.
    
    I also found the ad in an old 1973-ish Guitar Player (back cover, had
    Rusty Young on the cover, I think) that I recalled.  It only mentioned
    the Les Paul recording guitar.  The picture looks exactly like a
    6-string version of my bass (thus the name confusion). It's got the
    brown-ish carved top, the same weird, big black pickups (supposedly
    low-impedance), the phase switch, etc. 
    
    - John -

    The earliest ad I could located was in the April, 1972 issue of
    Guitar Player, pages 26 & 27. The text refers to the instruments
    as "The Les Paul Recording Guitar and Triumph Bass". The bass pictured
    has no imprint on the truss rod cover--apparently Gibson had either
    not picked a name or had not had time to make the covers when the
    photo was taken. The guitar does have a Les Paul Recording cover.
    
    The price list dated November 22, 1971 is the earliest reference
    I could find: the bass is listed under Les Paul Series as Triumph
    Bass. BTW, it had a list price of $625 with case. The Recording
    guitar was $740. There are not many  1971 Gibsons that can't be
    sold today for at least their original list price, but these two
    have that dubious distinction.
    
    I have pictures of a dozen of these basses, not including the catalog
    photos, and they all have either Les Paul Bass or Les Paul Triumph
    on the truss rod cover. The former are leftovers from the original
    Les Paul Bass--Gibson hates to waste parts.
    
    Which leads to a general caution: hardware and labels are easily
    swapped, changed or copied, so it is never safe to judge the age
    or model of guitar by any of these items: truss rod cover, bridge,
    tailpiece, pickguard, knobs, tuners, pickups, label (many dealers
    have a stock of blank orange labels).
    
    Danny W.
    

    re: .38   >What's a volute?<
    
    One last time: This is drugs...
    
    Okay, for those of you who haven't been paying attention:
    
    A *volute* is a lump on the rear of the headstock, behind the truss
    rod cavity. Gibson used it on necks made between 1970 and 1981.
    It is supposed to help prevent the headstock from breaking off when
    you turn around too fast on stage and whack the cymbal stand with
    your guitar, but it doesn't. Some players don't mind them, some
    detest them (like me).
    
    Actually, my main objection is aesthetic, since I've never found
    them to interfere with my playing.
    
    Back to your Les Paul--if it has a volute, it's from 1975. If it
    does not, very early 1970. If the binding is dressed up over the
    ends of the frets, they are most likely original. Either way, I
    doubt that it's a fretless wonder, for which you should be grateful..
    
    Danny W.

    re -.1
    
    	I believe that I do have what you would call a volute.  It is
    contoured to fit the players hand and it feels perfectly natural
    to me (IMHO).
    
    	As for the frets, I'm almost positive that they are the original
    ones.  If they were changed, whoever did the work really knew their
    stuff.  Just out of curiosity, what years did Gibson use these fat
    frets?  I've played others LPs with normal width frets and the
    difference is remarkable, not to mention the life factor of the
    frets.
    
    	So, 1975 huh.  Is this an educated guess or carved in stone?
    Where do you get this wealth of information?  And if thats not enough
    questions, any idea of the market value of this axe (my insurance
    company would like to know)?
    
    					A thousand thanks,
    
    					      Brad

    Just a quick Q here.
    
    	How thin are the frets on a "fretless wonder" , I have an old
    custom without volute  & the neck binding is dressed up to the edge
    of the frets.  The frets appear quite flat but it's old & I play
    it to death & play evenly over the whole neck so it could be wear.
    
    	SN is 172098 if that helps to decide if it's a "F.W".  I love
    it no matter what but I guess it's what one's used to.
    
    	Cheers
    
    		Pete.
    
    

    As I recall from F.W.'s that I've seen, the frets are very flat
    with squared off edges.  It seems to me that the tops of the frets
    were only about 1/32" above the fingerboard.  They weren't any wider
    than most normal frets, but the height and profile were distinctive
    and unquestionably 'different' in appearance.
    
    Hope this helps - I'll be the first to admit that I don't possess
    the wealth of Les Paul knowledge that some of this notes participants
    do!
    
    Steve

    Anyone able to tell me how much a LP 25/50 would cost in the UK.
    It would have to be an early serial # as I've been told that they
    have the best overall sound. By the way, is that last statement
    true ?
    
    Bob

    re: -.1
    
    No, early 25/50's do not sound better than later ones.
    
    Do a dir /title=25/50 to find the earlier note on this subject,
    where I explained all this

    Current US prices are around $900-$1500, depending on how nice they
    are.
    
    Danny W.

    Could someone tell what "XR-1" means onthe truss rod of an '81 sunburst
    Les Paul?  I have a chance to by one of these and would like to
    know how much it is worth?  It is in very good shape and it plays
    nice.
    
    
    Don

    I've been looking at Les Pauls to get a thicker richer tone than is
    possible thru my maple neck-thru or my ash bolt-on.
     It surprizes me that the standards have a maple top, while
    the more expensive custom are solid mahogany. Is this truly the case?
     Does anybody know why ? 

    Original LP customs were all mahogany because Gibson was expecting jazz
    and blues players to be attracted to the somewhat less brilliant sound.
    
    When Gibson started remaking these in 1968 they used maple tops, and
    except for some special editions and custom orders, current LP Customs
    have the same construction as Standards -- Maple tops with mahogany
    backs.
    
    Danny W.

    Down at Mr. C's they have a used Custom, black, new chrome hardware,
    new SD pickups. The thing is real beatup, may be a 74. Has a volute,
    but when I examined it I thought it had a mahogany top. The nicks in
    the paint seem to reveal mahogany.  Also has a coil tap added. They
    say but cannot prove the last owner bought it from a guy in Aerosmith.
     This, and what I was told there was why I thought all customs were
    mahogany.
     Does Gibson have a factory store in Nashville? If so how do prices
    compare? It would be nice to buy a new instrument that hasn't had any 
    in store use, delivered right in the factory carton.
     Andrew
     

    In the early '70's, Gibson had a "reissue" of the '50's Custom, with a
    mix of features including mahogany tops. In typical Gibson style, these
    were not very accurate copies.
    
    Sorry, Gibson does not sell direct to the public, but some Nashville
    dealers, like George Gruhn, claim to be able to go into the factory to
    select guitars. Expect to pay a premium for this service.
    
    Danny W.

    Thanks, I think when I get to buyimg one I'll just scour the music
    stores for a cherry sunburst standard.  One more question, one that I 
    think I know the answer to: Given that specific model of new LP's;
    should I expect quality to vary much? My thought would be to see what's
    out there and find out for myself. The lowest price I've seen was a
    july special for $699, so mid 700's  looks  like the damage.  This
    particular instrument at mr C's  might be going for mid 500's, and
    for the difference I'd rather a new standard.  Way too beat up.

    I've owned three different Les Pauls in the past four years. During
    that time I've tried out literally countless dozens in music stores.
    I've found that the quality of 1980's vintage Les Pauls does vary
    widely. I've played new Les Pauls which I think would rival classic
    'vintage' models in terms of sound, appearance, feel and general
    workmanship. I've also played new ones that I'd classify as garbage.
    My advice would be: don't make a decision until you tried at least
    a dozen or so, then you'll begin to see what I'm talking about.
    I'd also avoid purchasing a used one from the mid-seventies - Gibson
    was having real financial difficulty during that period and it's
    generally felt that it was reflected in their quality. One other
    note - over the years I've owned two customs and two standards,
    and I (like many players) like the standards better.  There is a
    difference in sound and feel between the rosewood and ebony finger
    boards.  I currently have a gold top, which I'm in love with!
    
    Good luck in your search - you'll know it when you find the Les
    Paul that's right for you.
    
    Steve

    
    I've done a dir/title=iben* and came up blank. Hopefully
    you Les Paul fans can help me. A freind of mine is home
    practicing on an Ibenez he's borrowing. He wants to buy
    it because he feels it's value is much higher than the
    owner realizes. I told him I may be able to find out for
    him. So here I am. The guitar is in mint condition, and has
    to be at least 15 years old. I don't know the model name,
    but it's one that was supose to be a Les Paul "rip off" and
    was discontinued due to a law suit brought by Gibson?
    I don't know if this matters, but he said after months of
    non-use the guitar was almost in tune. You can probibly tell,
    but I don't know squat about guitars. I appreciate any help.
    Thanks'
    Brian
    

    Ibenez is actually spelled Ibanez
                                 -
    
    Try another DIR/TITLE
    
    Mike

    Thanks for the spelling lesson Mike.
    It pointed me to note #1413.20
    which identified a guitar who's
    description sounds just like the one
    my friend has. 
    
    Thanks' again
    Brian

    My friend bought a mint condition Ibanez Les Paul copy in '82 for $225
    (used).  I've seen them around going for about that same price these
    days. 
    
    I have one that I bought about five years ago for $50.  It's a little
    battered, but plays and sounds great.
    
    Greg

    Another tweek to the Les Paul chronology.
     This week I examined a couple of Les Paul Studio guitars, and they
    had trapeziod inlays. I had been familiar with this model and it used
    to have dot inlays. The salespeople at Daddy's said they were new and 
    coming out of the factory this way. 
     I think they look very good this way.  I also saw the body was about
    1/4" thinner than a standard. 
     The prices for these machines was 550$ US for the studio, with gig bag
    and  900$ US for the standard with a hard case ( this was a black one,
    the sunbursts cast more I think  ). 
     
    - Andrew

    I managed to bargain a salesman down to $469 for the Studio (with gig
    bag), and $769 for a black Standard.  Also, Gibson is offering a
    limited edition black Standard, called the Jeff Beck model, which has
    gold hardware and has the pick up covers removed. It's $100 more than
    the regular Standard.  From what I understand, it's not very "limited"
    either ...
    
    Scary (who's gonna pick up his black Standard in a few days !!!)

    I was looking at (and playing) Les Pauls this weekend. 
    
    For my budget, the Studio looks most promising. I have some questions
    about it, though. Maybe some of you guitar experts can give me some
    answers.
    
    What colors is the Studio model available in? I played a black one
    (very sharp looking), but was wondering anyway. 
    
    Where does one get replacement parts (such as pick guards, etc. etc.)
    in case any of this stuff wears out or breaks? Can one order direct
    from Gibson? 
    
    The black Studio I played seemed to have an ebony fingerboard...nice
    fingerboard!
    
    In general, any technical stuff about the LP Studio - place it here. I
    like to read! And I especially like to be informed before I buy...
    
    
    Wes
    

    The studio model has a rosewood fretboard, and I've seen some with
    pearl inlays like the standards and deluxes ... *nice* playing guitars
    too.  I played one (black too ..) numerous times before I bought my
    Strat.  I also A/B'd the studio vs. a standard, and I couldn't tell the
    difference.
    
    What I was gonna do (if I bought it ...) was by gold speed knobs,
    switch out the pickup mounting rings with white ones, and get a white
    pickguard.  Probably would have had $50 in cosmetic work, and it would
    have been *one* sharp machine !  Go for it ... my dealer quoted me $466
    with the gig bag ...
    
    Scary (who still might grab one some day ...)

    Oh yeah - I think they only come in black and white ...

    RE: .61
    
    Thanks. 
    
    Y'know, I could have sworn the fingerboard was ebony, but maybe it was
    just a darker stained rosewood. 
    
    It had the large mother-of-pearl inlays and dots. 
    
    Twin chrome humbucking pickups, chrome hardware with "vintage" tuning
    pegs. And gig bag. Price $549.00 new (prices are higher in MA). 
    
    So what's the body made of, maple or mahogany? Anyone know? 
    
    
    Wes
    
    

    RE: the discussion in general
    
    I remember reading in some magazine that in the 50's and early 60's,
    guitar shops had a hard time selling Les Pauls, Telecasters, and 
    Strats. 
    
    Is this true? Seems back then that more people favored semi-electrics 
    and the like. 
    
    If I haven't said so already, I was impressed with the models I played 
    this weekend. All played well and all seemed well-made. All had a nice
    warm tone and sounded good thru distortion even, really full. 
    
    I played thru a tube amp. 
    

    Yup, until the late sixties rolled around, LPs were duds.  They didn't
    even make 'em from 1960 to 1968.  
    
    Most of the Brit bloozers like Clapton, Beck, Page, etc. tell stories
    about coming to the US and scarfing up sunbursts for $75 in pawn shops
    (ouch).
    
    If I only knew that when I was 12 years old, I'd be a rich man today 
    8^)  8^)
    
    						Brian

    set life/no_LP_studio_models!
    
    Buck, who thinks if $$$ is your concern, buy an Epiphone LP custom
    copy instead of a "real" Gibson Studio!

    
    I'm extremely happy with my Epi LP Standard copy, FWIW.
    $500 with hardshell, and AFTER taxes.  
    
    J.

    Could someone please talk about the Les Paul Deluxe models?  What years
    were they made?  What options could you get on them?  What colors did
    they come in?

    I got one last weekend and I love it!  It's a gold top with a three
    piece maple neck, rosewood fretboard, and highly figured mother of
    pearl trapezoidal inlays.  A beautiful playing and sounding guitar! 
    It's all original with the original frets (in good shape) and the stock
    mini-humbuckers.  The neck seems a little thinner (thickness) then many
    of the other Les Pauls I've played and feels more comfortable to me.

    Greg

    If I can trust the sources I've read, the Deluxe model didn't appear
    until 68 or 69, the goldtop reissues of the time with the mini
    humbuckers (designed to fit into the same space as P-90s) were the
    first to be called Deluxes.  Before that, there was just the Standard,
    Custom and the various Jr./TV models.
    
    						Brian

    Greg,
    
    You didn't tell me you had a Gold top...
    
    WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
    
    
    I think I'll have to hate you for the rest of the afternoon!
    8^)
    
    Buck, who drools over goldtops!

Greg - you got a Les Paul???? Why didn't you tell me!!!!

Anyways, my Les Paul is a 1970 Deluxe model - I absolutely love both the
guitar and the tone, its one of the niceset guitarist I've ever played!

alan

    I told you that Bill!  You were claimin BAD!
    
    Alan, your's is a Deluxe?  I thought all the Deluxe's had
    mini-humbuckers?  Your's has full sized pickups, right?  
    
    (I was going to tell you about it when I answered your mail, which I
    haven't yet...)
    
    Greg, confused

    I have a "wine red" deluxe... I was told that it's a '76 which is the
    last year for the deluxe.   I love the axe!!  It's only flaw that I
    have noticed is the pickups....my mini-h' buckers have a really nice
    tone (very classic LP and slightly on the bright side), but they are
    "microphonic" when playing loud....some pretty annoying feedback (the
    squeal kind) if I don't crank off the volume between songs.  Great
    axe!!
    
    Steve

> Alan, your's is a Deluxe?  I thought all the Deluxe's had mini-humbuckers? 
> Your's has full sized pickups, right?  

Nope, mine has the mini-humbuckers as well - they're great! Nice and warm
tone from them. They *are* succeptible to microphonic feedback at high
gain, but I almost always roll the treble all the way off anyways, so that
never really happen with me.

alan

    RE: microphonic feedback
    
    I would think that if you potted those Mini's that the feedback prob
    would be solved, no?

    RE: microphonic feedback

    Can't that also be caused by bad (cracked) solder between the
    cover and the bottom plate? Or aren't they made like PAFs. You might
    want to check that out first because it would be a lot easier to fix
    if that's what it was. But I do agree with Buck that potting is the
    most likely problem/fix.

    --rjb

"Potting" them??? What the hell is that???

alan

    Potting pickups means dousing them in something that will prevent the
    little wires in them from moving around.  Typically this is done with
    paraffin or lacquer, but sometimes epoxy is used.  
    
    This has been discussed in some detail in another note...
    
    Greg

>"Potting" them??? What the hell is that???
    
    Plant them w/top soil in your favorite flower pot.

    potting them?
    
    * first you melt some wax in a container large enough for the Les
      Paul...
    
    * the carefully dip the........8^)
    

    For all you Deluxe-heads out there; Chandler just came out with some
    re-issue Firebird pick-ups that are supposed to be pretty hot stuff.
    I think Duncan used to sell one pickup as either a Firebird or Deluxe
    replacement, which leads me to suspect they're the same size, but I
    think real FB and Deluxe pickups are different animals inside.  Not
    sure about microphonics, but Firebirds really push out the high end
    and give great woman tone.  Might be cool.
    
    /rick

    Agaga!

    RE: .70
    	Hey Buck, did I ever tell you about the 1958 Gold Top I could have
    bought for $75.00??? It had a broken headstock (typical Gibson) and I
    asked my Dad for a loan...  he told me,"a good deal is only good if you
    can use it". At the time it had some merit, so I passed it up...  
    (I was 16 yrs old at the time)
    
    
    			WHAT A DOPE HUH?
    
    
    		Fred (who's got 2 Les Pauls now to make up for it!)   ;^)
    

    re: Rick      
    
    Yeah, Duncan made mini-humbucker sized replacement pickups that fit in
    the Deluxe's.  The Deluxe Coop used to have had 'em.  He didn't care
    for them much, but I liked the sound.  
    
    I had heard that Duncan was the only company making replacement pickups
    that would fit in the the Deluxe's, nice to hear that Chandler is also
    making something.  
    
    Not that I'm thinking of replacing mine, I like the way the stock
    pickups sound!
    
    Greg

     yeah pot 'em.......but since they're mini humbuckers you
    have to clip them like a bonzai tree.....

    I thought Dimarxzio made a replacement pickup for Deluxe?!?
    
    I mean, Tom Scholtz used to use one with the Dimarzio...am I wrong?
    
    RE: Fred Ab
    
    NO WAY!!
    
    
                          
    But you would have tried to play it thru that P-word amp...which would
    have been a sin!  ];^>

    Unscrew the covers, lift the pickups out, stash a couple of 
    fine buds of Columbian and ...

    Di Marzio does make a replacement pickup for the small Gibson
    humbuckers found in the old deluxes,but they were made to replace
    the P90 single coil pickups found in some deluxes and the 50's
    goldtop Les Pauls. They have a creme cover and are a humbucking
    pickup. Tom S routed his Les Paul out for a Dimarzio sd. :^(
    
    							Rick
    

    re .82
    
    Clapton does "Have You Ever Loved A Person"?
    I don't think so

	I own a '69 LP Deluxe (goldtop). Nice guitar, has been mine for
	...(counting)...22 yrs now...I replaced the stock minihumbuckers
	with real PAFs from a '60 or so broken LP. This gave a more ag-
	gressive tone and more 'growl'; I sometimes think about put the
	mini's back, though - I still remember that warm, trebled tone.
	Especially the neck pu sounded better than the PAF.

	BUT - I lost the pu mounting plates (or guards, or what you call
	them) - special creme plates, flat ones with a small hole for
	minihumbucker - any of you know, if I can buy these somewhere?

	Just in case, if I should feel like putting them back on...Also,
	if I ever should consider sell this axe, I'll propably get a
	better price if it looks like it did from stock...?

	Poul

    -1
    
    Go ahead, rub it in!!!
    
    8^)  ;^)

    re .91
    
    When you put in the big humbuckers, I take it you didn't have to cut
    the holes bigger?  How are the big pickups mounted?  Do they have
    mounting rings on them?
    
    /rick

    re: .73
    
>    I have a "wine red" deluxe... I was told that it's a '76 which is the
>    last year for the deluxe.  
    
    I think you may be off a little on the last year they were made. 
    According to some info Danny Weber posted in an earlier note, the
    serial number on mine would indicate that it's a 1977 model.
    
    FWIW, the serial number on mine is 06115521. 
    
    Greg
        

    Deluxes were listed in the 1983 catalog and price lists.
    
    Danny W.

	Rick (.93),

	I had a luthier make the holes bigger for the PAFs. As far as I
	remember, I think the PUs are mounted at the edge of the creme
	plates - but I'm not sure, it's years ago I replaced them.

	So, what do you think my baby's worth - if I put the stock PUs
	back on again (assuming I can get hold of those minihumbucker
	PU plates)? I guess it's less worth with the PAFs?

	Poul

    Re: last year for Deluxe....
    
    Ack! I don't know where I got that impression (1976)...just stuck in my
    head for some reason.  '83, huh....hmmm.  Danny, did that '83 catalog
    show the classis deluxe config (mini humbuckers, etc)?
    
    Steve

    I bought a LP STD in 1979, and the catalog I was choosing from offered
    four LP models...
    
    * Custom
    * Standard
    * Deluxe
    * Pro Deluxe
    
    So...

    Buck,
    
    Waddaya get in a Pro deluxe config?
    
    Steve

    Bulldawg,
    
    Same config as a Deluxe, but with "soapbar" pickups.
    
    Buck, who sez the only dif between a Std, Deluxe, Pro-Deluxe was the
    pickups!

    Pro Deluxe had ebony fretboard, MOP inlay, soapbars.
    
    Standard and Deluxe are identical except for pickups. Since the market has
    generally preferred the full-size humbuckers, the Deluxe has not held
    its value as well as the Standard. Replacing the pickups doesn't
    improve this situation, since there are plenty of Standards around. I
    usually see modified Deluxes in the $500-$600 range.
    
    The Deluxe was dropped somewhere between the '83 and '85 price lists--I
    think they were shipped until early '85. The Pro Deluxe was probably
    stopped a few years earlier.
    
    Danny W.

    I could have sworn that a buddy of mine bought a new gold top deluxe
    in 1967.  The reason I can recall that date is because a year later in
    '68, I bought a new LP custom (fretless wonder, black only at the time).
    
    The custom had full-size humbuckers, but I'm almost certain that my
    friends gold top had the cream-colored plastic single-coil p-90's on
    it...  I realize that it was a long time ago, and I could have been
    halucinating at the time...
    
    Steve
    

    
    re .102
    
    	What your buddy bought in '67 wasn't a Deluxe. It was a
    	continuation of the LP gold top that was originally
    	available in the late '50's. It had a small headstock with
    	a more pronounced pitch (tilted back), a one piece mahogany
    	neck, a one piece mahogany body with a carved maple top, and
    	P90 single coil pickups. There was no difference between the
    	'67-'68 model goldtops and the '50's versions with P90's and
    	a Tune-o-matic bridge. Humbucking pickups wasn't an option on
    	the goldtop in '67-'68, but they came stock on the Custom LP.
    	   The Deluxe had a laminated (usually 3 pc) mahogany neck,
    	a larger headstock with a shallower pitch, a laminated mahogany
    	body, and mini-humbuckers (dual coil). I have seen a couple of
    	early Deluxes with solid mahogany bodies.
    
    	Neal
    

    Neal's right, it was a 50's goldtop re-issue.  One reason for the confusion
    is that these late 60's re-issues sorta turned into Deluxes in later
    years.  The pickup cavities for the P-90's are the same smaller size
    as the Deluxe humbuckers; Gibson started popping in humbuckers
    in place of the P-90's, and the Deluxe line was born.

    re: .103,104
    
    Ah soo?!...   Mucho gracias...  I thought I was having a flashback! 8^)
    
    Steve

    Anyone seen/played one of the new "reissue" Les Pauls ?  They seem to
    be extremely expensive - what do you get for the extra $$$  ?
    
    Pete

    I don't know if it's considered a re-issue or not, but there's a new
    sunburst standard at Daddy's in Nashua for $1098, I did think that was
    a bit pricey.  I didn't play it, but it sure looks like my 83 (which,
    of course, is itself a re-issue).  Interestingly, they had two (the
    other a deeper cherry color, but for the same price), and that 
    was sold almost instantly.  I still think that's a lot of cash for a
    standard (which is a terrific axe), but that's just my opinion.
                                       
    al
    

    I know that on some of the reissues, (i.e. the '59 standard) you're
    paying extra for highly figured maple tops such as matched flame or
    tiger stripes...  I don't know if you're getting anything else for
    the bucks though...  but I would expect that they would have their
    best luthiers working with their best woods so as not to let an
    apprentice mess one up inadvertantly...  (those ones go out as
    studio models with 1/4" laquer coating on 'em... just kidding!! 8^)
    
    /steve

    >Anyone seen/played one of the new "reissue" Les Pauls ?  They seem to
    >be extremely expensive - what do you get for the extra $$$  ?
    
    Pete,

    I've been checking out the latest models/finishes and this what I've found
    out so far:
    	1-piece mahogany body, 2-piece maple top, rosewood fretboard, '59
        reissue PAF humbuckers, chrome hardware. They're available in black,
        honeyburst, heritage cherry sunburst, vintage sunburst, amber, 
        lavender, (I've seen lavender, it s*cks) and possibly other finishes.
    	Prices vary widely between retail stores in Mass and mail-order quotes.

    LP Standard - ~$1000 for black, other colors more $$.

    LP Classic '60 - All the features of the standard except for;

    	a) Thinner neck ~5/8ths of an inch from headstock to heal (YUM!)
    	b) "Classic '60" in gold lettering on the pickguard and "Classic"
           engraved in the bell-shaped trussrod adjustment plate. ~$1300
    	   
    LP '60 Classic Plus - All of the above features PLUS a book-matched flame
    	maple or quilted maple (burl) top. Quotes from ~$1500-$1700.

    Wurly's in Worcester has some of each, but only one Classic Plus,. It's
    amber, which looks pi$$ yellow to me. The honeyburst and the vintage
    sunburst are the most interesting to me.

    	The LP Custom is also available with the flame or quilted maple top
    at ~$1400-$1600. 

    	Then there's the reissue LP Junior, Special (single cutaway) and
    TV models (dbl cutaway), all in various colors. These models are minus
    the carved maple top, fancy inlay, body binding, and humbucking pickups
    that the standard is so famous for. The pickups are the single coil P100,
    a newer version of the P90.

    Neal
    

    The word I hear from some well respected blues players around Boston is that
    the pickups in the LP re-issues are the best PAF repros around, bar none.
    I've only dabbled with one of these Paul's and wouldn't know a great
    PAF if it bit me anyway, but figured I'd pass this on.  Sounds like
    people are scarfing these up (the pickups, that is).
    
    /rick

	Any speculation on what plans, if any, Gibson has for a 40th
	anniversary Les Paul?    The first production gold-top was
	introduced in '52.

	/Steve

	>Any speculation on what plans, if any, Gibson has for a 40th
	>anniversary Les Paul?    The first production gold-top was
	>introduced in '52.

	>/Steve

	Steve,
	They did a 30th Anniversary Goldtop a few years ago. I believe
     	it's a reissue of the '57 because it came with Humbuckers and
     	1957 was the first year they were available on a LP. A friend of
     	mine has one. Unfortunately, he hacked it up by putting a $*#!@$$
     	whammy bar on it. Routed all the way through the body to do it,
     	too. Broke my heart to see it. He regrets it now, and I'm glad.
     	   I really can't see Gibson reissuing the '52, especially when
     	it would require a different neck setting to accomodate the
     	trapeze bridge that the '52-'53 LP came with. Besides, it wasn't
     	very good at staying in tune.
     	   I don't think the LP Standard is available in gold. the
     	Classic '60 is the only LP available in gold as far as I know.

     	Neal

    Neal,
    
    You're probably right.. I doubt Gibson would reissue the '52.
    The trapeze tailpiece sounds like a bad design from all the press.
    
    The 30th anniversary was really a '57 reissue (in disquise) and to
    confuse matters more, I believe it was introduced in '82?
    
    But on to more important topics... such as determining a proper
    punishment for your friend who routed out his gold top... let's see 
    now, one that isn't too cruel and unusual..  how about requiring him
    to buy a '59 reissue at full mslp and presenting it to you as a gift.
    Does that seem fair enough? -)
    
    /steve

Let's make that a real '59.  Routing out a LP for a whammy is worse than stupid.

Jim

     	Hmmm...I like the way you guys be thinking. 8^)

     I have to tell you though, I've been seriously thinking about
     plunking down the plastic for a Classic '60 Plus/Vintage Sunburst.
     At around $1600, they are still about half what it would cost
     for a new LP '59 reissue that Gibson also offers ($3495 list)
     I've seen one in the WantAD ($2000) and there's one at Lark St. Music
     in Albany, NY for $2950 used. That's a little out of my league.

     Let's see now....the car's paid off, and if I move into a smaller
     place, and I eat spagettios for a year, hell I just might pull it off.

     Neal-dreaming-again

    Gibson also used to make a gold-top reissue in the late '80s that
    wasn't a 30th anniversary... it had humbuckers so it must have also
    been based on the '57.  Are they still making that, or is the only
    reissue now the '59?
    
    They also made a limited number of LP 'Showcase Edition Signature'
    gold-tops which were based on the '55 with P90 pickups.
    
    /Steve (who really likes the book-matched top look, but probably
    		likes the gold-top look just a tad more)

    Yo Steve,..
    
    	All these questions about Vintage Fender Amps and Vintage
    Les Pauls,.. Do I sense the early stages of a heavy GTS attack here?
    
    	:-)
    						/Bill
    

    Cat,
    
    I think you should pick up a Matchless amp and a Hertiage re-issue
    LP!

    Buck,
    
    	I think you should grow your hair and get some tattoos
    
    	:-)
    
    								/Bill
    

    seen in yesterday's Wantads:
    
        "40th Anniversary Les Paul, $1500"
    
    sorry, no other details given

    Soko,
    
    My temperature has been rising lately...
    The doctor told me to buy two guitars and call him in the morning.
    
    /Steve

    notes collision!
    
    WHAT?!   40th anniversary?!   Have the counterfeiters tooled up
    before Gibson???
    
    /steve

	On a Pete Townsend(spellin?) album some years back there
	was a picture of pete with what looked like a double
	neck les paul.

	I seem to remember seeing a picture of Kieth Caradine
	a long time ago with one.


	Does anyone know anything about this guitar??

	tom

    That's not a Les Paul body, but a *hollow* body.  The earliest Gibson
    double necks used a hollow body design.  In the 60s, the double necks
    started using the SG style body (ala Jimmy Page).  
    
    Another player I've seen with one is Todd Rundgren.
    
    
    						Brian
    

	re: .124

    >That's not a Les Paul body, but a *hollow* body.  The earliest Gibson
    >double necks used a hollow body design.  In the 60s, the double necks
    >started using the SG style body (ala Jimmy Page).  

	anybody got an idea what these hollow body double necks
	are worth today?

	tom

I've noticed that the '92 Les Pauls are being made with two-piece tops again,
as opposed to the three-piece tops of the 70's & 80's.

Do the two-piece tops have any advantages (other than asthetics) over the
three-piece tops?

And what year did Gibson first start producing Pauls with three-piece tops?

/Steve

    Gibson started using 3-piece tops in 1952--the first gold tops used
    this construction.
    
    When they ressurected the LP in '68, Gibson used 2- or 3-piece tops at
    random, depending on the size of the wood they had. Sometimes the tops
    were nicely matched, sometimes there was so much difference between
    pieces that you had to wonder what they were thinking of. I hope they've
    got it figured out by now.
    
    The only difference is aesthetic.
    
    Danny W.

    Thank you again Danny!   You are a wealth of information!
    
    /Steve

        I've searched this note, and other LP notes in this conference and
    didn't find anything similar so I thought I'd ask this here.

        In May of '91, I was given a "Limited Edition" Les Paul Standard
    (B-day present from my wife and a group of [extremely] good friends.
    The guitar was brand new, purchased through my father in New York (hes
    been a music teacher for 36 years and has some good connections) 
    complete w/ hard shell case for $800.00.  The guitar came with little
    more than a very generic "instruction" booklet and warranty literature
    so I don't really know many of the specifics.  

        I have recently begun a crusade to find out everything I can about
    this "Limited Edition", which is cause for this note.  I've written to 
    Gibson but haven't heard anything from them.  

        The guitar is all white, with the gold hardware of a Custom.  The 
    front of the body and the neck are outlined in tan.  I can't tell if
    the fingerboard ebony or rosewood.  The inlay is trapezoid MOP.  The
    serial number is 90421487 (made in '91 if the serial number info in
    previous replies is correct) and is stamped into the back of the headpiece.
    "Made in USA" is stamped right below the SN. 

        From what I was told, there were only 200 made that year.  100 were
    white, and 100 were red.

        Anyone familiar with this "Limited Edition"?

I have the Exact same guitar. Cost me $175 more. I got
it as a birthday present also. Well.... I had to pay 
the remainder of the $950 loan.

I love mine !  I don't know what else I can say about 
it. 


Congrats though.


Brian

    Gibson has been coming out with limited editions since the late '70's.
    Most of them are unusual combinations of features and/or colors. The
    only extra value they have is to those who like that particular
    combination. You already probably know everything there is to know
    about your limited edition model--what else are you looking for?
    
    The anniversary models have usually had some extra value after time
    passes--for example, a blonde 25/50 can go for $2k, a 20th anniversary
    gets an extra few hundred dollars over a '74 Custom. "Reissues" with
    fancy tops get a premium, too. Other limited editions have been ignored
    by collectors.
    
    Danny W.

    Danny,
    
    Any idea what a 30th anniversary gold top would be worth relative
    to other 'ordinary' gold tops?
    
    /Steve

    Depends on your definition of " 'ordinary' gold top". Early ones go from 
    $5k-$10k, so compared to those, they're not worth much.
    
    They are more valuable than same similar vintage non-anniversary
    models. I see them at $1200-$1500 for the laminate neck and up to
    $1750 for the one-piece neck version, assuming excellent condition.
    
    Danny W.

    ... yes indeed ...   the value of the gold tops from the 1950's
    certainly does put the more recent ones into perspective.
    
    Question:  Is Gibson still producing Gold tops?  A local dealer
    told me that in September '92,  Gibson drastically reduced their
    product line, drastically increased their list prices, and designated
    certain models to a new 'historical collection' which would only be
    available through a handful of dealers nationwide.  The supposed
    intent is to keep the prices of certain models as close to list as
    possible.  Anyone know which models were cut, and which were put
    into the special category?
    
    /Steve

    Gibson's 10/92 price list shows 3 LP Customs, a Standard and 2 SG's in
    the Historic Collection.
    
    "Bullion Gold" is one of the finishes available on the "Les Paul
    Classic" as part of the regular Les Paul series.
    
    If that doesn't clear up any confusion, nothing will  :-)
    
    Danny W.

    I checked with a local dealer who informs me that the 'bullion gold'
    is gold all around (top, back, neck, etc..), similar to a few that
    were produced in the fifties, but unlike the majority that had just
    gold tops and natural mahogany backs & necks.
    
    Apparently, the LP standard in the historic collection is a flame-top
    cherry sunburst, like the '58-'60 years.  He also thought there was a
    gold top in the collection but not certain of the year it's based on.
    
    /Steve

    There is a '56 reissue gold top available now - P100 pickups (P90
    lookalikes) and stop bar tailpiece. '56 was the last year before 
    the PAFs were introduced. I've got one (a reissue), and it's just gone 
    in to have the frets levelled (so much for Gibson quality control) :-(   
    
    Pete

    My neighbor and I were talking and she said she had a Les Paul guitar
    that her father had owned. I borrowed it and said I would try to find
    out the approximate value. It's a Les Paul Junior, single cut-away,
    single pickup with a tone control. According to the serial # it was
    made in '57. It looks just like the one in the "Ultimate Guitar Book".
    It looks and feels great. No mars or dents. Alligator case. 
    
    Any guesses on value or do I need more information to pass on?
    Thanks for any help.
    
    Paul 

    The finish on these is important in determining the value.  If it's
    a sunburst, all original parts and as clean as you say, it's worth
    about $1000.  If it's got a "TV" finish (limed mahgoany, kind of
    a mustardy yellow) it's worth more, maybe as high as $1500.  These
    are "collector" prices; start deducting for things like finish and
    neck wear, replaced parts, etc.  Price on these seems to have peaked
    a couple of years ago, when they were worth a little more; demand and
    price has dropped off somewhat lately.  (Look out if there's a
    Mountain reunion tour though :-)
    
    Just as well, these are GREAT player's guitars imo.  It would be a
    shame if collectors made em too valuable to gig with.
    
    /rick

    The edges of the body are black and the inner body is that deep yellow
    finish. I have a feeling the this lady's father just played it as like
    and acustic and never wailed on on it. Everything is original and not
    abused or well used. So I can kinda assume it might be worth somewhere
    between 1000 and $1500?
    
    Paul

    The finish you describe is a sunburst and you would probably see
    a vintage dealer selling it for about $1200.

    Too bad--Gruhn is asking $2750 for a '57 LP Jr. in Tv finish!!!
    
    Still, a sunburst one is nice to have, too
    
    Danny W.

    .137 is correct about the bullion gold finish, which actually looks
    pretty neat. There are two goldtops available in the Historic
    Collection, a '58 Standard with humbuckers and a '56 Deluxe with P90's.
    These run about $1600. An all-gold Deluxe (non-Historic) is about $1100
    
    Danny W.
      

    >>Collection, a '58 Standard with humbuckers and a '56 Deluxe with P90's.
    
    I don't think the '56 is deluxe, it's just a 'Les Paul model' (what the
    standard was before it became standard)
    
    Pete
    

    A Deluxe is just a Standard with P90's, so regardless of what they're
    currently calling it, that's what it is.
    
    Danny W.

    Was thumbing through some old guitar mags from the early 80's and
    noticed several adds for add-on tremelos for Les Pauls (and I guess
    other stop tailpiece style instruments).  One was called the Bowen(?)
    Handle and there was another unit by Rockinger.  The cool thing was
    these units required no modification to the instrument; they just hooked
    onto to the stop tailpiece studs, replacing the normal bar.  Evidently
    this was a big fad at the time, as the ads were all over the place, but
    funny thing is I've never actually seen one of these in use and never
    even heard of em before.  Anyone ever run across one of these
    contraptions?
    
    /rick

    Yeah, man!  I actually *had* a Bowen Handle add on trem!  (probably
    still have it in a box somewhere if anyone wants it...)  I bought it in
    about '84 and used it for awhile on an Ibanez Studio ST55 guitar, which
    had a Gibson style stop tailpiece.  Worked about as well as one could
    expect from a non-locking trem... 

    I liked the fact that it didn't require any modifications to the guitar
    and that the installation was completely reversible.

    Greg

    I had tried one of these ( a Rockinger I think).
    
    If you like the sustain of an archtop without the warmth, you'll love
    what it does to an LP.
    
    Danny W.

   >> If you like the sustain of an archtop without the warmth, you'll love
   >> what it does to an LP.
    
    A tremelo on a LP is mortal sin, plain and simple.....
    
    8^)

    Hey Danny, I like your description.  How about this one:
    
    "if you like the weight of a Les Paul, without the tone..."
    
    others?

So, who can tell me anything about a 12-string Les Paul? 

I had never heard of such a beast, but there's a picture of one in that
flyer I got for the 'Blue Book For Guitar Values'. Looks like quite a 
beauty, too! Was the 12-string Les Paul a one-of-a-kind, or was it an
actual production model?

alan

    I know of an LP 12-string that was a custom order. It was an LP Artist
    with an extended headstock and standard width neck. There were no
    production LP 12-strings.
    
    Danny W.

    I have a copy of 'The Gibson Les Paul Book' by Tony Bacon.
    It supposedly covers details of every production model Les Paul
    that Gibson ever made, 1952 thru 1993.  There is no mention at
    all of a 12-string LP.
    
    /Steve

    Mr Music in Allston MA is a Gibson Historic Collection dealer, and I
    think the only one in Massachusetts.
    
    Does it have to be new?  I just saw a really nice used (late 80's)
    2-pickup Black Beauty pass through Daddy's for reasonable bucks.
    

>    I'm trying to find out the current list price on a new LP custom
>    '57 black beauty reissue w/ 2 pickups (as opposed to three).
    
     Steve,

     Do you know if the '57 black beauty reissue has the mahogany top
     (as opposed to maple) like the original? Would you still want
     one? BTW, I'd prefer the 3-pu job, but have no idea how much
     bucks they cost.

     According to The Gibson Les Paul Book by Tony Bacon and Paul Day,
     Les Paul himself preferred the mahogany top, and said Gibson got
     the wood arrangement the wrong way around, ie, the mahogany top
     should have been on the cheaper GoldTop, and maple on the costlier
     Custom.

     Neal

    '57 2pu LP Custom lists for $2475. Optional Bigsby at no cost.
    
    With a NAMM show upcoming, Gibson might soon raise their prices.
    
    Always glad to be of assistance :-)
    
    Danny W.

    Gibson couldn't keep it all straight either; they sometimes made
    Customs with maple tops and goldtops with mahogony. I think sometimes
    they just needed a body to complete a factory order and took it from
    the other pile.
    
    I'd assume the Hysteric Series models use the appropriate wood, but I
    don't know for sure.
    
    Danny W.

    If you've been lusting after the 'Burst in the Gibson Historic
    Collection ad, you can slake that urge and lighten your wallet (or give
    your Visa a real workout) by calling Gulfcoast Guitars (813-474-1214).
    
    They have the actual guitar from the ad for a mere $15k--but hey, it's
    a piece of history, right? Worst part is, it will probably seem like a
    steal in a few years.
    
    Danny W.

    This fall under useless trivia department:
    
    I was perusing a stack of vintage GPs that another noter kindly dumped
    in my basement (thanks RickB :-(  and noticed an interesting letter in
    one of the issues, circa early 70's.  It was from Vic DaPra, who seems
    to mainly collect rare bursts for a living and has one of the most
    famous sunburst LPs actually named after him.  It seems at the time,
    Vic was still hunting for his very first burst.  His letter asked 
    if anyone had one they were wishing to sell; I think it also mentioned
    how he didn't have a lot of money, but had a 50's LP Special to throw
    into the deal.  I wonder how much ole Vic actually paid for that first
    burst?  Did he imagine then where it would all lead???
    
    From small acorns...
    
    /lester
    

    I remember coming across that letter recently and laughing. He's got a
    book about Sunbursts out now.
    
    Danny W.

    Somewhere else I mentioned that I had looked at the The Les Paul
    prototypes at Gruhn Guitars. These have bodies, necks and tops of very
    highly figured maple, wood pickguards, wood back plates, standard LP
    Custom inlay in abalone,5-piece necks, pearl tuning pegs, pearl serial
    plates on the peghead rear, and standard LP Custom trim and hardware. This
    differs from the production versions that had wood pickup surrounds and wood
    knobs.
    
    These are beautiful guitars, but seemed very overpriced at what I
    thought was $25k for the pair. Apparently this wasn't clear in the
    listing, because they're actually $12.5k. This is still too much, but
    it's closer to the $8-10k I think they'd be worth. They're on
    consignment and the owner has turned down an offer for $7k and claims
    to be firm.
    
    I haven't seen a The Les Paul for less than $5000 recently. A sky hook
    to hold the things while playing is probably optional, but necessary.
    
    Danny W.

   There's Yet Another Les Paul variant that Gibson has just introduced:  The
Jimmy Page model.   From what I've read in the music magazines, it has a neck
shape/thickness favored by Jimmy.

   However, the most intriguing thing about this mode is that *each* volume and
tone pot also acts as a push/pull switch, changing pickup configuration between
humbucking, single/tapped-coil combinations.   These push/pull pots, along with
the standard pickup selector (claims the advertisements) allow for many
interesting tones.

   Anyone try one of these out yet?  

    -1
    
    sounds great!

    Biggg Buxxxx!

Guitar Center showed a LIST PRICE in the mid-$3K range if I remember from their
flier.  I would guess that you might get some change from $2K cash.

Jim

    Right-chu-r! Recently saw a flyer for these at $1800, listing at over $3K.