Conference napalm::guitar

    
    The biggest "pro" is that hollow body electrics tend to have a
    smoother, warmer tone *in general* than most solid bodies.  They
    can also be much lighter in weight, which may be important.
    
    The biggest "con" is that when used at high volumes, they are
    considerably more prone to feedback than solid-bodies, thus the
    general disfavor in rock circles.

        
    

    Hollow bodies sound more like an accoustic, and you can play them
    without an amp.  
    
    They do have much less sustain and as .1 indicates, are not suitable
    for high volume.

    Unless you're Ted Nugent.
    
    Or Steve Howe.
    
    Or Brian Setzer.
    
    "all generalizations are useless, including this one"
    
    What type of hollowbody electric are you talking about--a fully
    hollow archtop or a semisolid like a 335?
    
    Danny W.

    
    
    Sorry for the ambiguity, the type of guitar I'm interested in is
    the FULL hollow-body.

    I've been playing a Gibson ES-175 for about 10 years, now.  Not
    only is the action faster than my acoustic, it has a great tone
    (as stated before) .  When played without an amp, it does sound
    tinny, but for practicing, I find this acceptable.  For a good example
    of the sound check out Joe Pass and Jim Hall.

    My college room-mate had a Gibson 175D which I played quite frequently.
    
    One thing that you should probably tell us is WHY you're interested
    in a hollow body.
    
    As IRT::COMMAROW pointed out, you can play them without an amp, but
    I've come to the conclusion that that's not the purpose of the hollow
    body - i.e. it's not so that you can play with or without an amp.
    
    Hollowbodies played without an amp sound pretty crappy (IMO), not really
    at all like a decent acoustic guitar.  Acceptable only for practicing,
    but then I practice on an solid-body electric without plugging it in either.
    
    I think the real purpose is to get a specific kind of tone and sustain.
    They are significantly different than electrics in that respect.
    
    Regarding playability, there are two general kinds of hollowbody
    electrics, hollowbodies (like the 175D) and semi-hollow (like the 
    Gibson 335).
    
    I find full hollowbodies (like the 175D) to be a little uncomfortable
    and less natural feeling.  The body is so thick that I feel like I'm
    reaching around it.  They also generally produces very undesirable howling
    feedback at any reasonable stage volume unless you take steps to
    damp it somewhat.  Even so, your string damping technique has to be
    better than it would be on a solid body.  (Damping technique refers
    to keeping the strings that aren't being played from sounding while 
    allowing the ones you are playing to vibrate).
    
    	I remember trying my friends 175 through a Sunn Concert Lead
    	(200 watts) with two 6-10" cabinets.    As soon as I turned
    	the volume on, the guitar starting feedbacking and shaking
    	like you wouldn't believe.  I really thought that it was going
    	to just distingrate.  It also felt like it was ready to jump
    	out my hands - as if it had been electrocuted or something.
    
    	That was a big amp, but I even had problems at relatively low
    	stage volumes.  
    
    On the other hand, I love the semi-hollow bodies, particularly the
    335.  It feels as comfortable as an electric (perhaps even more because
    you can feel it vibrate when you play it which is sorta an esthetically
    pleasing thing), it doesn't have as bad feedback problems, and they
    really sound great.
    
    	db

    Re: .6
    
    Actually, a hollowbody like an ES-175 *is* an acousitc guitar. 
    Gibson used to make a whole line of acoustic arch-tops, one of which
    was identical to the ES-175 but without pickups.  Arch-tops sound
    considerably different than flat-tops, which is what most people
    think of when they think of "acoustic" (I hate that term) guitars.
    
    The late Freddie Green used an acoustic arch-top in his long tenure
    with Count Basie and on the old records you have no problem hearing
    him chunking out the rhythm amidst all the horns.
    
    

    Okay: more than you ever wanted to know about hollow-body  electrics.
    Since you're not interested in semi's, I'll skip that part. 
    
    Two basic types; Laminated(plywood) or carved top. Laminated ones
    generally have maple bodies, with the top and back pressed into
    shape. Carved top models have sides and back of solid maple with
    spruce tops: tops (and back, usually) are carved into shape from
    a thick piece of wood. Bodies of either type run from 15" to 19"
    wide at lower bout, and from 2.25" to 3.5" thick. Scale lengths
    go from 23.5" to 25.5". Most have f-holes, though there have been
    some oval hole models made over the years. Non-cutaway, single-cut
    and double-cut models exist, with the single-cutaway being the most
    common. Cutaways can be rounded (venetian) or pointed (florentine).
    
    Tailpieces are "trapeze" types, attached to the end of the body.
    Bridges are set on a base that is held in place by string pressure.
    Ebony, rosewood and tune-o-matic types are used. A floating pickguard
    is usually provided, though some players remove them.
    
    Either type may have one or two pickups set into the top. Carved
    tops are also available with floating pickups, so the top is not
    damped by the mass of the pickups. Two pickup models usually have
    2 tone, 2 volume and a pickup selector, some have coil cuts or phase
    switches.  I don't think fancier electronics are desirable, or the
    whole point of playing a hollow body gets lost.
    
    Playability of hollow bodies is usually a little worse than solids
    or semi's, since the body thickness interferes with upper fret access
    somewhat, and the heel is usually bigger. Still, good ones can be
    quite easy to play. 
    
    Which of these to chose depends a lot on the player and the music.
    If you are new to arch tops, a laminated model is probably your
    best bet. These can give an excellent jazz sound, and can even provide
    a warm rock sound. The Gibson ES-175 has been one of the most
    popular--current ones are made with mahogany back, sides and neck;
    I personally prefer the older, all-maple ones. These run $500 to
    $1000 depending on vintage and condition. Other current models to
    consider: Guild X-175, Ibanez FG-100, Borys B-120. There are many
    vintage models available. If you are interested, I'd be glad to
    post a list of types, prices, features, whatever.
    
    Carved tops are the creme de la creme of the luthier's art, and
    good ones are expensive. New ones go from $1,500 to $5,500, with
    some vintage models in the $15,000 range. A carved-top guitar with
    floating pickup will give the most natural guitar sound and can
    be played acoustically as well, but is quite prone to feedback and
    is not very flexible.  Those with set-in pickups are more useful
    for gigs and still can have a really good, warm sound. Most of my
    favorite guitars are carved tops, with or without set-in pickups.
    I could also post a list of these models.
    
    If there is anything specific you wanted to know, ask away.
    
    Danny W
    

    I've got a semi-hollow telecaster and it has a tendancy to howl
    if I use too much gain...no easy way to fix that that I know of....
    
    dbii

    The main advantage of a hollow body guitar is the sustain you get
    due to the soundboard vibrating as per an accoustic guitar,hence
    the warmer sound and the associated howl.
    The wide bodied Jazz type guitars as used by players like Steve
    Howe don't offer brilliant tonality but can be difficult to get
    on with. I beleive it was for this reason that Gibson introduced
    their thin bodied electrics.
    Epiphone made a thin bodied,hollow bodied guitar called the Casino
    in the 60s and there was a Gibson version called the 330.
    These guitars are good for blues and rock as they are fitted with
    the P90 single coil pick-ups.
    One of my favourites for tonality is the Ibanez "George Benson"..
    again as with any guitar it's matter of personal preference.
    As such guitars are rather unpopular at the moment you can usually
    get one for a good price
    Regards
    Jeff Jansen

    ...oh by the way for the guy with the hollow bodied tele...
    I've heard that the howl can be reduced by stuffing foam rubber
    inside,but I don't know how effective this is.
    Failing that if the howl is a problem that you can't live with you
    could get a luthier to put a wooden block inside to restrict the
    soundboard vibration (as per the Aria TA series).
    
    Regards
    Jeff Jansen

    re: .11 and lose all the advantage of the hollow body inthe first
    place....I'll tough it out...thanks anyway
    
    dbii

    re: .10
    
    Much as I like arch-tops, they *generally* have less sustain than
    solids or semis. The feedback is caused by the resonance of the
    instrument, usually around D-Eb on a full-body Gibson, around G
    on a thin-body. A skilled player can get around this by careful
    placement of amp, adjustment of tone controls, and keeping open
    strings under control, but I agree that loud stuff is better played
    on a solid or semi.
    
    One reason that Ibanez GB-10's are easy to find at low prices is
    that the Japanese have no concept of how to properly build and voice
    an arch-top. After owning both a GB-10 and GB-20, I don't think
    either provides much of what most arch-top players are looking for
    in a guitar. When Joe Pass first got his Ibanez JP model, he asked
    Jimmy D'Aquisto to help make it sound and play right. Jimmy laughed.
    
    These guitars are certainly worth the price, but I doubt that they
    will ever be worth more. They make good utility guitars for the
    player who doesn't want to risk his $2500 L-5 at a club.
    
    FYI--all pre-Japanese Epiphone thin-line guitars, semi or hollow, were built
    by Gibson.
    
    Danny W.

    Some personal opinions on getting the most out of archtops:
    
    Strings: the heavier, the better. The lightest I'd suggest is 11,
    15, 20w, 30, 40, 50. Don't use unwound thirds. If you must, make
    sure the guitar has a metal bridge saddle. Use roundwounds if you
    want a more acoustic sound,  flats for a deader sound. Halfrounds
    are an okay compromise.
    
    Bridges: Carvedtops with  floating pickups work best with wood bridges.
    I prefer ebony, mostly cause I like the looks of it, especially
    on blonde guitars. Laminated guitars seem to sound best with a
    tuneomatic type. Carvedtops with set-in pickups can go either way--wood
    gives a more mellow tone. 
    
    Individually adjustable bridge saddles are less important than on
    a solidbody--you probably won't be playing above the 15th fret much,
    and intonation is less of a problem if you are following my advice
    under "strings". I've had no problems setting intonation with a
    compensated ebony bridge saddle.
    
    Tailpiece: Heavy tailpieces increase sustain, but tend to deaden
    tone somewhat. Some tailpieces have tension adjusting devices (these
    are *not* fine tuners): the George Bensons have adjustable bass
    & treble , Gibson's "Fingers" tp can adjust each string individually.
    These are useful, but not necessary.  Some older Gibsons have a
    "Varitone" (not the notch filter) tailpiece that can be adjusted
    with an allen wrench--don't bother! Bigsby's are okay on laminated
    guitars with heavy tops (i.e. many Gretsches), but don't work well
    on carved tops and should be avoided. An exception is Guild's DE-500,
    which seems to handle its Bigsby well.
    
    Sustain: Forget it! That's not what these things are for. Learn
    to play more notes ;-). Plywood guitars with metal bridges are better
    at this, but no hollowbody is going to scare a PRS in the sustain
    department. Between the tailpiece, bridge, and all that wood to
    vibrate, energy gets lost fast. The tradeoff is that nice, rich
    tone.
    
    Effects: Since the guitar already has a nice, rich tone, use a minimum
    of processing. A little reverb, some delay, go pretty far. Avoid
    effects that produce strong frequency shifting, like heavy chorus
    or flanging -- the sound tends to become muddy. If you really want
    to do this to your sound, use a solid or semi. 
    
    Danny W

    Danny,
    
    	Do you have any suggestions towards keeping a wood bridge from
    shifting on a ES 175 short of hole drilling etc? and what acoustical
    properties would I sacrifice or gain? would you get more feedback
    problems? And do you have any info on Van eps string dampners?
    
    							Rick

    Rick:
    
    I've heared of people having this problem, but I've never experienced
    it myself! Assuming you are using adequately heavy strings, and
    that the tailpiece is properly attached and not bent or sprung,
    and your bridge still walks:
    
    Try gluing fine(600 grit or finer) sandpaper or emery to the bottom of the bridge base with
    a tiny amount of Elmer's white glue. This usually will do it. If
    not, before you even think of drilling holes, try gluing the bridge
    base directly to the top, again with a tiny amount of white glue.
    Make sure the bridge is properly located before you do this, and
    be sure to immediately wipe off any glue that oozes out. Since white
    glue is water-soluble, this can be undone if necessary.
    
    Try the sandpaper first. Either of these fixes should cause only
    a small change in tone. I'm not sure how much acoustical property
    a 175 has to begin with, but I doubt that it will change much.
    
    Van Eps dampers seem to be in and out of production on an irregular
    basis. Check the back pages of GP or GW--if I can find an address,
    I'll post it. I tried one once and didn't care for it, but if you're
    having problems with open strings, it can certainly help.
    
    Danny W
    
    

    re:16:
    
    Seemed to have lost a line:
    
    "Glue sandpaper to the bottom of the bridge base"
    
    Danny W

    	Thanks,I just changed to a heavier string last night and this
    might make the difference. If not I'll try your suggestions
    
    						Thanks,
    
    						     Rick

    Rick:
    
    One more thing: check that the bridge base is properly fitted to
    the top. If there are large gaps between the feet and the top the
    bridge will be unstable and the sound quality compromised. 
    
    Some time spent with a file and sandpaper will usually cure this,
    but sometimes a new bridge base is required. You didn't say what
    year your 175 was made--there have been differences in arching that
    may cause a replacement bridge to fit poorly. These differences
    have been less pronounced on pressed-top guitars like the 175 than
    on carved-tops, but they do exist.
    
    Danny W

   I've had the same 'walking bridge' problem on a Gretsch Anniversary.
   Double-sided tape stuck to the bottom of the bridge works OK.  Not
   great.  It looses the 'stick' so I change it every-other set of strings.

   The mention of poor fit in the last note sounds familiar.  The wood
   piece of my bridge has a hairline crack so it doesn't sit perfectly
   flat.  Are replacements available?

   The original bridge is a BIG curved bolt mounted on the wood thingy.
   Six knurled nuts on the bolt provide saddles? for each of the six
   strings.  Quite a contraption.  A patent number is stamped on the
   bottom but I can't imagine anyone would copy the beast. :-)

   Enjoy,
   Dave

    	I bought it new in 74,but it was probably built in 73. After
    looking at the bridge last night I think I might want to replace
    it with something a little more stable preferbly with a Gibson
    or higher quality wood bridge. I had tried a tune a matic in 78,79
    but ended up going back to the rosewood bridge for tone reasons.
    	This use to be an off the shelf item,but if it isn't maybe
    I can order it from a dealer.

    re .20
    
    The bridge on your Anniversary is called a "Space-Roller".
    I think the guys at Cambridge Music can get you a replacement
    if you want.
    
    /rick