Conference napalm::guitar

    That was me.  I was trying to use a pickup and mike on the same
    guitar.  The volume needed to be adjusted according to whether I
    was playing rhythm or lead or fingerpicking.  My problem was that
    my idea of a natural acoustic sound kept getting lost with all that
    adjustment.  In fairness to the soundpeople, it's pretty tough to
    mix an acoustic band that keeps changing instruments.  Adding my
    pickup to that was asking a lot.
    
    As for mixing acoustic instruments, I don't know how much I can
    help.  I'm more of a soundman's nemesis than a soundman.  I can
    tell you some things that often get overlooked.  If you're working
    with a variety of mikes, try to assign the right mike to the right
    job.  The frequency response of a particular mike may be better 
    suited for voice than violin.  Vocal mikes are usually okay for
    guitar.  Other instrument mikes may need a better high end.  You
    may be able to work it all out with EQ.  Check an instrument through 
    its normal range.  It may need some EQ.  
    
    Is this the kind of information you want?  I'll try to help, but
    my experience is mainly from the other side of the mike.  Anybody
    else?
    
    Bob

    
    In my experience it's always best to leave the EQ alone one any
    acoustic recording/PA situation, including vocals.  As .1 rightly
    pointed out, getting the right mike for the job is the most important
    thing.  You're really lucky if the guitars are fitted with those
    piezo electric mike arrays (like Taks, Ovations etc), in that case
    give em each a flat(ish) channel EQwise & mix on the gain/slider.
    Obviously not all acoustics have the internal mike arrays & in the
    particular situation you mentioned (your chuch with multiple acoustic
    guitar) you have a different problem.
    
    In this case I would avoid trying to close mike the individual guitars
    as this can be a nightmare.  I would try an ambient technique of
    two or three omnidirectional mikes at about three to four feet away
    & experiment with positioning.  I've successfully recorded classical
    quartets on two mikes as a stereo pair positioned about twelve to
    fifteen feet away.  Remember acoustic instruments are designed to
    work that way anyhow. 
    
    A word of warning generally on acoustic instruments.  It's a peculiarity
    of the human hearing that it likes the top end of the audio range.
    If you are tempted to increase the high EQ walk away from the desk
    for a while.  When you come back it will probably sound fine.
    This happens in all walks of sound engineering but because of the
    bright edges to the acoustic it is more pronounced.  Your ear will
    try to compensate after a while & you'll want more treble, & your
    ear will try to compesate again until to you it sounds fine but
    to a fresh pair of ears it sounds awful.  Mind you this is actually
    used in concerts to keep the sound fresh, the sound guy will increase
    the highs as the gig progresses to couter comesate for the ears
    of the audience.
    
    If you're interested in more info there is an excellent mag called
    Home & Studio Recording which is directed at the small set up. 
    If you can't find it in the U.S. drop me a mail on your sort of set
    up & application & I'll see if there are any relevent articles in
    the back issues & I'll forward them.
    
    Hope all this helps
    
    Cheers
    
    		Pete.(the_long_winded_one)      

    oooops sorry

    
    Wurlitzers has an Alvarez Yairi with 2 mini mics built into it.
    This guitar has been hanging on the rack for months due to the
    fact that you can't get any volume out of it without howl.
    I'm sure mini mics are great for recording, but for live work,
    pickups are the only way to go.
    
    	As far as a church application, it is usually not necessary
    to have the guitars blaring loud, as long as they are not getting
    drowned out by an organ, or vocals. Therefore the ambient mikes
    set 3 to 4 feet in front of the cluster of guitarists should cut
    it. The key here is to choose the right mike for this application.
    Omni-directional mikes would be better than hyper-cardiode for this
    purpose.
    
    	I agree that acoustic instruments are better with eq set for
    flat response, however, unless your PA system in church has been
    properly equalized with a pink-noise source and spectrum analyzer,
    you will probably have to make some adjustments. Often times it
    is necessary to crank the bass, since bass requires more power
    to produce. It really depends on your speakers, and the mics you
    are using, since every transducer has it's own unique frequency 
    response curve.
    
        
    Mark
    

>    < Note 954.4 by ANT::JACQUES >
>    	As far as a church application, it is usually not necessary
>    to have the guitars blaring loud, as long as they are not getting
>    drowned out by an organ, or vocals. Therefore the ambient mikes
    
    We do have concerts too so sometimes it just has to be LOUD! :-)
    
    Thanks for all the info though, I'll be experimenting.
    
    Mike

    
    RE .4
    
    	I must agree that if the PA is a permanent set up that it would
    be a good idea to customise the system.  The most successful way
    I've seen to date is to invest in a graphic EQ (30 band are quite
    common & you can get em quite cheap these days).  You would need
    to beg borrow or steal (I suggest the latter would be unacceptable
    in your church application :-)) a pink noise generator & a spectrum
    analyser.  Feed pink noise into the graphix and the graphiix into
    the power amp(s).  Adjust the graphix to get a flat reading on the
    spectrum analyser (which should be situated in the audience area).
    Keep a note of the exact settings on he graphix.  The desk is then
    plugged into the graphix so that the compensation for the hall is
    now independant of the desk.  The reason I say keep a note of the
    graphix settings is that you may want to, at some time, use the
    graphix to take a spot frequency out to prevent a howlround or
    something.  You should always return the graphix back to it's proper
    setting after though.
    
    If you do have a concert situation try setting up an acoustic only
    area away from the amplified performers so your acoustic miking
    doesn't pick up the spill so much & balance it on the desk.
    
    Have fun & keep us posted as to results of any experiments.
    
    Cheers
    
    		Pete.  

    
    If your church can't swing the pink noise generator and spectrum
    analyzer, you might be able to borrow one. Better yet, you
    might be able to get a soundman to come in and eq the hall
    for you once, and write down all the eq setting for you. 
    This assumes you either have an eq, or can afford to buy one.
    Changing the eq on one mike or instrument on the mixing
    board won't effect the overall mix. As long as the EQ is kept
    at the same setting all the time you would be all set. Even
    if you had to pay a soundman a couple of bucks for his time
    and use of the equipment, it would be much cheaper than buying
    the equipment.
    
    Just a thought. I just hope all the pink noise coming through
    the speakers in the house of the Lord, doesn't annoy his holiness,
    or shatter any of the stained-glass windows.
                                      
    Mark
    

    Now that I think of it, Gary at Wurlitzers has a Gold-line
    spectrum analyzer with a printer attached to it. His unit
    sells for around $3200.oo. I am pretty sure you would have 
    to pay him a minimal charge, but he could give you a computer
    printout of your hall acoustics, and eq settings.
    
    Call and ask him. He is at the Worcester store.
    
    Mark
    

    Thanks for the ideas.
    
    We do have a Soundcraftsmen 1/3 octave EQ in the system that was
    balanced with a meter to fit the sanctuary.  Would this be similar
    to what I could do with the analyzer?  The meter is no longer around
    and they won't let me touch it without it :-).
    
    Can I call Worcester collect? :-)  I live in Phoenix.
    
    Those of you familiar with being soundmen and playing guitar, does
    this help you when you've been on both sides of the mic?
    
    Mike

    
    In my case it has cut both ways.  Having had to cope with bad sound
    men while playing I think I'm probably a bit more sensitive to the
    needs of the musician.  One problem I have had to work v.hard to
    deal with is my bias to the guitar, I tend, maybe, to attend to
    the axe man (esp if he/she is good) & sacrifice another aspect of
    the sound (probably a popular trait in this notes file :-)).
    
    I think the main advantage of being a player when mixing is that one
    can understand what the band is saying when they describe the over
    all sound they require.  Having said that the best sound man I ever
    worked with can't play a note but I feel he's an exception.
    
    Cheers
    
    	Pete.