Conference napalm::guitar

    Peavey makes a very good clean sounding amp. Whether it is any better
    or worse than a JC120 is debatable. It comes down to opinion. The
    JC amps have a nicer cabinet, at least it is more rugged than the
    Tolex on the Peavey. I must admit the Peavey stereo chorus has a nice 
    arsenal of features, like stereo line outs, dual effects sends, etc. 
    They also offer a head only version of this amp, so you could match 
    it up with two separate cabs if you wanted to. If you are after a 
    stereo sound, seperate cabs would give much better separation.
    
    The choice is yours.
    Mark J.
                  
    

    
    One thing to look for is if the effects loop is buffered. A buffered
    effects loop has an attenuator for controlling the effect send level.
    Some have a 3 position switch, while others have a pot. I can't
    recall whether the Peavey has a buffered loop or not, I would check.
    A buffered loop gives you the flexibility to use any type of effect
    you want, ie stomp box, line level rack mount gear, etc.
    Stomp box effects are designed to see a signal from a guitar pickup.
    Just to give you an idea how hot that signal is, a Gibson "Original
    Humbucker" puts out 80mv. Some of the latest pickups with preamps 
    can do 4x that or about 300mv. A line level effect is designed to
    see 1v. 
    
    	My Twin has a buffered effects loop. I find Stomp box effects
    like to see the low position, while line effects like the high
    position. I know people that have had problems with their unbuffered
    effects sends overdriving effects. 
                 
    	Just a thought.
    
    	Mark

    
    Depends what your ear likes...
    
    I think the gain charatceristics on the Peavey are much nicer than
    the JC120.  Although, the stereo chorus on the JC120 is much nicer
    (IMO) than the Peavey (the peavey has too much damn pitch modulation
    for my tastes!).
    
    The peavey doesn't have an effects loop.  They have patch points
    between the preamp and power amp section, but don't work very well
    as effects loops.
    
    Again, its whatever catch's your ear...
    
    Buck

    re: .3   'too much pitch modulation' on the chorus?... doesn't that
    depend on whether you're using the 'vibrato' section in conjunction
    w/ the chorus?....  that's when i noticed it could get out of hand.
    
    BTW,... so that's it?  Peavey and Roland - for makers of combo 
    stereo amps?   seems like others would be into this too.
    
    /paul
    

    
    Well, no...
    
    Of course gallien-krueger makes a stereo combo amp, the 250ML with 2x6
    1/2" speakers and a 250CL with 2 x 12" speakers.  I don't like the
    chorus on this amp either (for the same reason as the peavey chorus).  
    
    I don't like the modulation (on the Peavey) because no matter where you
    have the depth control the chorus still `bends' the note noticeably
    sharp and flat...I like more of a comb filter/doubler effect for
    chorusing (real tight modulation). 
    
    again, personal taste

    do you happen to know what the Gallien-Kruger goes for? probably
    alot huh?   how bout power etc?
    
    /pc
    

    I'm looking for stereo combo models to check out that offer decent
    sounds for an acoustic as well as an electric.
    
    I tried a Marshall Micro stack last night.  It is a neat stack, but I
    didn't care for the sound of an acoustic through it.  This sounds like
    an electric only stack.
    
    The Peavey Stereo Chorus mentioned previously in this note is nice.  I
    also tried the Crate G40CXLS with 2 8" Celestions and on board chorus
    and reverb.  That is a nice combo also.
    
    Any other recommendations in this area?  This includes the big name 
    tube companies like Boogie, Kitty Hawk, etc.  I'd like to check out
    some of their reasonably priced combos.
    
    Mike

    Roland makes several versions of the Jazz Chorus series amps (JC120,
    JC55, others) which you may want to look at.  Depending on how much you
    want to spend, the GK 250ML is a nice little stereo 

    That little Crate stereo combo won a bunch of awards, I'd probably
    consider that one.  Just a little pump for Crate, I've had a CR160GT
    (60wt solid state 1x12 combo with a Celestion speaker) for over six
    years and it sounds great and has been the epitome of reliability.

    I would agree that the MicroStack would probably not sound great with
    an acoustic.  It's got distortion in it's little mind.

    I'm not aware of Boogie or Kitty Hawk offering anything in a stereo
    combo.  Boogie, Marshall, etc combos are really nice, but you pay
    plenty for them.  
    
    Greg

Rivera makes stereo amps, and I like mine very much. All tube, 60 watts per or
120 watts per. You can buy just a power amp or a full channel switching guitar
amp.

dbii

    I have some questions about these so-called "stereo" components as a
    result of the SP1000 notes.  Is this unit really stereo (i.e., L+R
    outputs)?  Are there any preamps and rack effects units that will match
    up with L+R outputs?
    
    Seems a waste to me to feed a mono signal output from a preamp into a 
    stereo power amp.
    
    Mike

Yes, it's really stereo, as are many of the other power amps on the market. 
There are several stereo preamps, the ADA MP-1 is one.  It produces stereo
chorus from it's two outputs (as Coop found when his SGE crushed this by 
doing a nice "stereo imaging" on top of it).

Even if you have a mono preamp such as a Soho (KH Quattro) or a Chandler, 
there are many efx units that will take a mono input and produce a stereo 
imaged output, the ART SGE and Alesis Quadraverb are a couple of examples.  
Using one of these after the mono preamp would still allow you to use the 
stereo functionality of the power amp.

Face it, there's not much that a simple preamp could do that would produce 
a true stereo output, it's the effects that really use it.

Also remember that pretty much all of these stereo power amps have a mono 
(bridged) mode that will take a mono input and produce a mono output (with
more power!).  It's just a flexable way to set it up, the stereo is nice if 
you need it and you can have more power if you don't.

Greg

Yeah, everything Greg said.  The processors do the processing.

One nit:

You can't strap (bridge) the outputs of the Metaltronix-Perfect Connection
SP1000.  It's strictly a stereo amp.  This might be a problem with some people, 
so I thought I'd point it out.  Same with the Peavy DECA 528 (which is 250 wpc,
one rack space and definately kicks butt!).

jc

    So are there any efx units that are true stereo to compliment the
    SP1000?  Quadraverb?
    
    Mike

I don't know what you mean by "true stereo".  All effects that produce a 
stereo output are "stereo", ie things like chorus and delay sweep from side
to side.  

Some effects, like the SGE, don't really take stereo *input* (even though it 
has a left and a right input...), but still produce a stereo output.  Others,
like the Quadraverb will take a stereo input and retain that.

Quite honestly, I don't understand why some people are so hung up on stereo.
(BTW, this is not a poke at you Mike, just a generic comment)  I have a 
bunch of "stereo" gear and find that I use it all in mono mode.  The stereo 
just doesn't seem to work well live and it's a hassle.

SP1000 is stereo ONLY?  ;^(  I was thinking of getting one, but not if that's
the case. 

Greg

>I don't know what you mean by "true stereo".  All effects that produce a 
>stereo output are "stereo", ie things like chorus and delay sweep from side
>to side.  

    Like the MIDIverb II for example...mono in, stereo out, but it's a 
    synthesized stereo output...the signal is like delayed and piped
    out thru l & r outputs, but its NOT true lef tand right, ya know 
    what I'm sayin?
    
>SP1000 is stereo ONLY?  ;^(  I was thinking of getting one, but not if that's
>the case. 

    Why not?  You can use it as one amp, or use it as two power amps...I
    don't see why the fact that the sp1000 has TWO 100wt amps in one would
    deter anyone from buying it?  
    
    signed,
    confused
    

    Greg, it's like Buck said.  I see "true stereo" as separate L+R inputs
    that end up as separate L+R outputs.
    
    Mike

Greg, the SP1000 is not bridgeable.  It's two amps in one.
Alan Starr opted for a bridgeable amp for less bucks, but more rack 
space/weight.  Alan ?  You got some input here ??

RE: all the hype around stereo rigs.

You gotta own one to appreciate it.  I like studio quality sound to 
come out of my rig.  It helps cover my bad playing.  ;)
I got stuck on it playing thru a rockman 7 years ago, and 5 years
of GK's.  Once you go stereo, you won't go back.  ;)

jc

The quadraverb does a nice job of steroizing in the flange/chorus and delay
modes if you set them up right...

dbii

FLAME ON!!!

I'm so mad, I had a nice long reply done and entered it and wanted to correct
something I saw at the last minute, so I deleted it and went to do the 
equivalent of REPLY/LAST with this DECwindows notes and I CAN'T FIGURE OUT
HOW TO DO IT!!!  What a LOAD!  You should never have an interface to a utility
that can't do all the (*&(^&*^ functions!

...and on top of that, this *&^*&%^ editor SUCKS!!!  It doesn't do auto-wrap,
it doesn't let you fill paragraphs

FLAME OFF

Sorry, I just get frustrated sometimes...

Now for my reply!

re: Buck and Mike (on the SP1000)

I said I didn't want it if it were stereo only on the presumption that you 
had to have a load on both channels whenever you used it.  If that's not 
the case, then I retract that.

re: why I don't like stereo

It seems that most PA setups are mono (or run in mono) and most sound people
prefer mono inputs (correct me if I'm wrong).  To run a stereo guitar setup
would require that both sides be miked requiring both an additional mike and
mixer channel and requisite cabling (all of which always seem to be at a 
premium).

I only ran my rack rig in stereo once and had lots of problems, so I bridged
it back and it's been mono ever since.   I have a 4x12 wired up in stereo, 
but it's 16 ohms per side which drags the output of my (admittedly small) 
power amp down significantly.  It's 40wpc into 4 ohms and into this cabinet,
it made a sound about whisper loud with *EVERYTHING* cranked.  I wasn't even
loud enough to play with my drummerless band where the practices are low
volume.  It also sounded bad...there is nothing in the cabinet to seperate
the sides and I think maybe I was getting some phase cancellation or something.
In any case, I definately had SEVERE feedback problems at much lower volumes 
then mono using the same preamp/efx patches.  So, it immediately went back
to mono and has been that way ever since.

Maybe someone has some suggestions to correct these problems I'd appreciate
hearing it, but please don't say "a) buy bigger power amp, b) buy another 
cabinet for seperation, and c) buy another EQ to kill the feedback" because
that was my "solution" and it's not feasible (why I now run mono).

re: Coop  

>You gotta own one to appreciate it

I *do* own one and I don't appreciate it.  I run it in mono because it sucks
in the stereo mode.

> I like studio quality sound to 
>come out of my rig.  It helps cover my bad playing.  ;)

NOTHING can cover *my* bad playing!  I call it "my style"..  >8^)

Greg (mono guitar player)

re: .17

> Alan Starr opted for a bridgeable amp for less bucks, but more rack 
> space/weight.  Alan ?  You got some input here ??

Actually, I bought the amp based on quality and $$$, not because of the 
mono/stereo capacity. Although I must admit that since I just run a single 
4x12 out of my QSC 1200 amp, I usually run it in bridge mode. Why not? It 
gives me 300 watts to play with instead of 100, and I don't see any downside. 

I guess a true stereo amp would be fine, but I also think I'd prefer the 
option of being able to bridge. Then again, if one side of the SP1000 goes, 
you can always run just the other side. If one side of the QSC goes, I dunno 
if the other will work or not.....so a stereo amp may be more reliable.

I still haven't really played out of a stereo rig in a situation that I can 
really hear the difference. I know some people swear by them (db, Coop), but I 
just haven't heard it enough to know. 

Wouldn't the ideal situation be to have a stereo guitar - lets say the E,D,B 
strings out one side, and A,G,E out the other - now that seems like a wild idea!

Alan S.

    Yo, Alan!
    
    What ever happened to that SP1000 your friend had for sale?  Sold,
    I guess, huh?
    
    B.

Greg !

Your having all the problems I had with my rig, and I bitched and moaned
and you kept saying "ahhh gee, my SGE works fine".

I see a pattern.  I won't tell you to buy new cabs for better seperation until
you BAIL THAT SGE !  ;)

Seriously.

See if this sounds familiar:

My first REAL stereo rack rig:

MP1 +
SGE +
EQ  +
POWER AMP +
---------
=No useable output

I got terrible feedback, I mean the type that mice die from,
even at low volume...
I got lousy tone, I mean my Marlboro amp worked better.
I got lousy freq. response.
I got no chorus from the MP1.

All these things went away suddenly when I got rid of the SGE.
The only patch I had with that the MP1/SGE worked okay was
the Stereo delay.

Other units I've tried (DSP128, MVII) all worked great.
Try the MP1 and your power amp.  Thats all I'm using now,
and I LOVE it !

jc (Who sez 40wpc is plenty)

>    What ever happened to that SP1000 your friend had for sale?  Sold,
>    I guess, huh?

Yeah. He refused to break up the rack system just to sell off the power amp.
Makes sense, I guess. He eventually sold the whole things as a package deal...

Alan S.

re: Coop

Interesting theory, and probably worth a try (when I eventually get the 
MP-1 back, took it to my local dealer who said they'd have to send it to 
ADA for the repairs and it would take at least a month).  I have used 
the MP-1 w/o the SGE into the power amp but not in stereo mode.

re: 40wpc enough

Depends on what you're playing...  In my case, that's 40wpc into 4 ohms 
and I was running it into 16 ohms, so I figure I was only getting about 
10 wpc or so anyway.  J's 12 watt Marshall Microstack head through my 
4x12 sounded louder then this thing did.

Even if I was getting all 40 watts, I don't think there's any way 40wpc 
is going to keep up with a live drummer (that *pounds*), a bass player, 
and another guitarist with a 100wt Boogie half stack...  8^)

It doesn't really matter at this point, since I decided that the Kitty
Hawk sounds better for the stuff I'm doing now and I'm using it all the 
time.  The SGE works great with it!

Greg

    
    
    RE: -.1

>re: 40wpc enough
    
    Depends on application, IMO.  Definitely not for bass rig!

>In my case, that's 40wpc into 4 ohms 
>and I was running it into 16 ohms, so I figure I was only getting about 
>10 wpc or so anyway.  
    
    Hmm, why not re-wire the dang thing into 8 ohms?
    
>J's 12 watt Marshall Microstack head through my 4x12 sounded louder then 
>this thing did.

    You thought so?  (No pun intended ;^)  )
    
>Even if I was getting all 40 watts, I don't think there's any way 40wpc 
>is going to keep up with a live drummer (that *pounds*), a bass player, 
>and another guitarist with a 100wt Boogie half stack...  8^)

    Hmm, who is the b*tt-head with the Boogie?!?!?  ;^)
    
>It doesn't really matter at this point, since I decided that the Kitty
>Hawk sounds better for the stuff I'm doing now and I'm using it all the 
>time.  The SGE works great with it!

    Yup!  Kitty does sound pretty killer!
    
    I always thought the 40wpc  amp of yours sounded pretty good, but 
    shows you how much I know.
    
    J-Dot

re: Hmm, why not re-wire the dang thing into 8 ohms?

Not quite that simple.  I had several reasons for not doing it that way.  
If you're really interested we can talk about it some time, but the bottom
line was that I did it the easiest, most flexable way I thought I could at 
the time and it didn't work out real well.

re: 40wpc enough

>  I always thought the 40wpc  amp of yours sounded pretty good, but 
>    shows you how much I know.
 
It *sounded* fine, just not loud enough.  Remember that you only heard it in
bridged mode which is 80wpc into 4 ohms.  I was running it into 8 ohms so it 
was probably putting out about 40 watts.

I don't like to run things at their peak performance all the time, tends to 
decrease MTBF (mean time between failure for those not familar with the term)
a lot.

Greg

    The ADA MP1 is a great versatile stereo amp. Anyone out there have one?

    The Mp-1 is a preamp, not an amp.  Check note 405 for Mp-1 specific
    discussions, note 1265 for Mp-1 preset info, and note 1819 for
    discussions of many guitar preamps (Mp-1) included.
    
    Several of us had them, but I believe the only person in here that
    still uses one all the time is Jeff Cooper.  I could be wrong.
    
    Greg

ADA rules man!
:)

jc (Who had to say that)

BLECK!!!  X^{

Very versatile at getting nasty tones.

IMHO, of course!  8*)

Jmystr

Who says Jeff is the only one using the ADA.....

I've been an ADA user fir almost 3 years now. Though not
quite as vocal as Jeff, I swear by the thing.	

As a side note I use My REXX preamp in the effects loop
of my ADA. I set up a bypass patch with the effects loop
"On" and poof.... instant access to the REXX.

It works great !


Brian "ADA user and proud to admit it"

'Ats my boy.

:)

    I thought you were using an old Marshall most of the time these days,
    Brian?
    
    Greg

Hi ya Greg:

Geeze..I think this is our first ever note exchange..COOL.


To be honest, I havn't used the Marshall much since I 
lent it to BUCK about 5 mos. ago. I retubed the preamp 
section with 12AX7's played it for a week or so then 
went back to the rack. Havn't touched it much in the last
3 months.

I really love the Marshall....and I'll never get rid of it,
but like Coop and his Strat, it just doesn't work for all 
the stuff I like to play.                                

The REXX does a rEXCELLENT (get it), marshall sound. In
my opinion even better than the ADA (ask Buck). So I 
always have access to a mint Marshall sound out of my
rack.

Maybe someday I'll use just my LesPaul into the Marshall.
I love that sound...but like so many others in here I like
alot of other tones, yes even amplified mosquito. So I'll
keep the ADA and like Coop keep taking the abuse about 
it ;^)


Jeff:

Sorry to leave you stranded in these arguments so often,
But no matter what happens and what these nonbelievers say...
You'll always have a tone bro on the East Coast.


Brian 

    Well, thats cool - I like the abuse almost as much as havin' a most
    rulin' tone.  :)
    
    jc (Who's sheer SPL slaughters the non-beleivers :)

>    jc (Who's sheer SPL slaughters the non-beleivers :)
    
    I heard a Peavey Mace that would have slayed your rack in terms of
    sheer SPL.  Great tone too......NOT!
    
    gh

I had a Mace once.  No contest.
:)

>    -< Sheer DB maybe, but not SPL >-
    
    Excuse me, decibel's is a unit of measure of sound pressure level. 
    They are the same thing.
    
    gh

Whatever...  I just doubt that sound pressure of a 1x12 or 2x12 combo can 
match (4) 4x12's...

    A db is still a db, no matter what it comes out of.  It's a measurement
    of "loudness".  The term Sound Pressure Level means the same thing.
    
    A Peavey Mace is an amp head, like most others.  You could put any
    combination of speaker cabs (that total the right impedence)
    underneath.  I believe it came as a stack.  I hardly think it's fair to
    compare the output of your rack amp with the umteen million speaker
    setup with another amp that you're not sticking the same number of
    output speakers on.
    
    gh

    ...which then leaves you with the issue of speaker efficiency.
    
    Some speakers are just plain louder than others, which is why 
    you'll often see a figure like "93db @ 1W @ 1m" in the specs.
    (93 db SPL for a 1 watt input measured at 1 meter from the speaker)
    
    Edd

    If you use Klipsch speakers, that's WAY loud.
    
    Mike