Conference napalm::guitar

    Julian:
    
    As a (decidedly) amateur student of classical and jazz guitar, the
    following thought's come to mind:
    
    .	Berklee, not GIT, is written of as the "MIT" of Jazz Guitar
    	(GIT's reputation is much more rock oriented).
    .	UCLA has a very well known classical guitar program in a complete
    	University setting -- nothing wrong with a b.a. in music with
    	a Guitar major.  Christopher Parkening and Pedro Romero had
    	been associated with the program at one time -- I don't know
    	who is today (for all I know they still are).
    .	re .1, private lessons with one of top professionals based in
    	LA is certainly the traditional approach in the music world
    	(my brother did the same thing in composition and piano) but
    	you don't get the same breadth you get from a university program.
    	(My brother, to stick with the same example, took his master
    	classes before and during four years at Yale.  He has been steadily
    	employed as a director of opera and musical theater since his
    	graduation.) 
    
    Hope some of this information is of use,
    
    - Evan

    Steve Morse is a graduate of the University of Miami (not Florida)
    in Coral Gables, FL.
    
    I'm not sure if Metheney has a degree from U. of M.   I had been
    under the impression that he had only taught there.  There are
    many other notables who have had strong associations with U. of M.
    including Jaco Pastorius, Juan Mercadel, etc.
    
    One thing you should probably tell your son is a direct quote
    from Steve Morse: "you can take ANY musical experience and turn
    it into a learning experience that improves your playing."
    
    I don't have the time to fully explain what that means, but through
    the years I've come to understand it, and know that it is true.
    
    	db

    Pat Metheny grew up in Kansas City, and did go to school at U. of
    M.  His biggest influence was Gary Burton, who brought him up to
    Berklee College of Music in 1973.  Note, Gary Burton played the
    Vibes.      

     Mlwaukee conservatory of music in Wisconsin have a good guitar
    program, you may write to them for catalog of it.
    

    I recently received a catalog (actually 2) from GIT.  First one to
    reply to this note, can have the spare catalog.  Please supply your
    mailstop.
    
    Mike

    
    Tony Dallison
    REO F1-6

    
    Even though I'm in England, I'm curious as to how its run. I visited
    Berklee when I went to the States and I'd like to have a look at
    te GIT catalog.
    
    Thanks,
    -Tony

>             <<< Note 844.8 by CHEFS::DALLISON "Slow poke music" >>>
>    Even though I'm in England, I'm curious as to how its run. I visited
>    Berklee when I went to the States and I'd like to have a look at
>    te GIT catalog.
    
    I mailed it the day you replied via interoffice snail.
    
    Mike

    
    Thank you  8^)

    I have another GIT catalog if anyone wants it.  Otherwise its '86ed
    
    Mike

    
    
    
    	Hey, Mike how bout sending it to a friend of mine here in ASO??
    
    Harry Fraser ASO/4AB.
    
    
    	By the way, he has a nephew who is really into Jazz bass and is
    trying to make the decision if he's got the right stuff for a career in
    music.  Do these places "evaluate" a person's playing???  What are the
    right first steps???  Try an Ensemble first???  Dive right in???
    
    
    Regards,
    Steve

>    	Hey, Mike how bout sending it to a friend of mine here in ASO??
>    Harry Fraser ASO/4AB.
    
    It's on the way!
    
>    	By the way, he has a nephew who is really into Jazz bass and is
>    trying to make the decision if he's got the right stuff for a career in
>    music.  Do these places "evaluate" a person's playing???  What are the
>    right first steps???  Try an Ensemble first???  Dive right in???
    
    Part of the application for admission involves a test and a submission
    of a sample (of your work) on cassette.  I'm not sure what they do
    after that.
    
    My new guitar teacher is a GIT graduate.  I'll ask him tonight.
    
    Mike

	I got the catalog about a week ago and was curious about the
	entry process. The written test is cake if y'know yer theory.

    Your best bet would be to call GIT.  

    A friend, who is currently enrolled at GIT (MI), told me George Lynch
    has been taking classes there recently!
    
    He said George was in his improv class, and when the teacher asked 
    each student to play their version of a D Dom. 7 arpeggio, George
    looked at the cat next to his to cop a fingering (ie, maybe George
    didn't know what the hell a D dom 7 was?).  Kind of interesting, I
    thought...a player with his chops learning the basics at GIT.

    
    	Sooo ... maybe the basics aren't all that important if you
    	can get by without them?
    
    	I mean, why go to Kindergarten if you already know how to
    	build houses out of cardboard bricks?
    
    							GTI
    

    George has admitted his lack of knowledge in magazine interviews so I'm
    not surprised.  Some, not all, can play by ear at that level.
    
    Mike

    My latest instructor is a graduate of GIT.  He has some real
    interesting stories about attending there!  Imagine getting to learn
    sweep picking from the master himself, Frank Gambale.  They never knew
    who the guest would be ahead of time, but they had a celebrity
    instructor everyday.  It only cost $3K/year when he went.
    
    Mike

    
     re:-1
            That's cool, I should be getting my brochure from them by
                         the end of the week.........................
    
            Mark_who_might_be_a_GIT_student_in_september.............

    I heard all the cool people are touring and don't have time to teach
    there anymore.
    
    No Gilbert, Gimbale, Sheehan, etc.

    
    My guitar Instructor at LGI also learned sweeping from FG. Also, my 
    other instructer toured with FG, and also lived with the guy for a 
    year (guy called Alan Limbrick).
    
    (Dunno what to make about two guys living together!!!).

    
    fyi,
    
    Billy S. is doing a whole stack of bass clinics in March in the UK.

    A lot of people thi FG technique is kind of lame.  Well, not LAME in
    the sense that he can't play...he has monster chops, but what they mean
    is the MUSIC is adapted to the technique, not vice-versa!  So, he is
    not really playing what his head hears, or what may be right for the
    context due to the limitations placed on music by his technique. 
    Anyone who went thru Frank's book on SPEED PICKING will know what I'm
    talking about.

    re .-1
    
    good point Buck! One which LOTS of guitarists should keep in mind;
    the technique serve the music, not the other way around.
    
    - Dave

    Is anyone familiar with the curriculum of either GIT or Berklee?  I'd
    like to see an outline of what subjects they expect you to know to turn
    a novice/intermediate into a professional guitarist.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

	I've been accepted as a student at Berklee.

	They are more than happy to send catalogs. If you plan to visit
	the Boston area, they hold frequent open house events to explain
	the program and the facilities.

	Berklee offers programs in Performance, Jazz Comp., Music Ed.,
	Music Synthesis, Music Production and Engineering, Professional
	Music and several others. There are a number of different kinds
	of paper you can get:

	- The Berklee Certificate

		requires 2 years of study. I recon they make sure you
		can read music and you know your intervals.

	- Diploma

		three years. This is a bit more intense. Probably more
		ensemble work and advanced topics.

	- Bachelor's of Music degree

		everything in the Diploma program and 32? credits of
		general ed.

	You can get any of the paper for all majors except music ed. All
	music ed folks must get the Bachelors and do a stint at one of
	the local schools as a student teacher.

	When I came to the open house they gave me a list of material
	that they wanted entering freshpersons to be familiar with:

		Improvising Jazz  (Jerry Coker)
		Scales, Intervals, Keys, Triads, Rhythm, and Meter
				(John Conley, Joyce Clough)
		an ear training book (I can't remember which they
			recommended)


	So how to get a taste? Berklee holds an event in August called
	"Summer Guitar Sessions". It's a week long live-in guitar camp
	taught by the faculty of the guitar department. I went last
	summer (when it was a 3-day event :-( ). Cost is ~550 and includes
	dorm housing on Comm Ave. Well worth checking out if you can
	afford the time and air fare and don't mind spending a week in
	Boston: Hub of the Universe.


	So dig thru your most recent issue of GP for the Berklee ad and
	call the admissions department. Ask for a catalog (includes
	application) and for information about the week-long summer camp.

	A couple of years ago I was thinking about GIT. I called and
	ordered a catalog and application.

	The application came with a test. I don't recon you'd have a
	problem with it. The catalog and application are free. Like
	Berklee, you don't pay anything unless you actually apply.

    Thanks for the info.  I did order a GIT catalog a couple years back,
    but haven't been able to find it yet ;-)
    
    I'm mainly interested in the outline of the curriculum because I'm
    going to be reuniting with my old teacher (who's a GIT grad).  Last
    time we only lasted a few months because I felt he was far too
    unorganized and random in his teaching approach.  I thought maybe a
    roadmap to get from point A (novice/intermediate level) to point B
    ("professional" level) would do us both some good.
    
    Being somewhat of a logical person, I can't deal with these musicians
    that are totally off the wall ;-)  It's only fair to the student-teacher 
    relationship that you be able to set some common ground rules at the 
    beginning.
    
    Mike

	Cool. I can identify with the frustration you feel with the non-
	structured thing. I was trying to follow a teacher from a local
	music store and there was no logical progression.

	It can be a lot better: I had a teacher for a while who was a
	Berklee Grad. The first time I talked to him about becomming a
	student he asked me:

			What are your goals?

	He didn't want vague, general stuff. He wanted some concrete
	things to go on. Once he'd forced me to turn on my lights and
	figure out where I thought I was going, it was a lot easier for
	me to articulate to him what I needed.

	There's an interesting book that I went through a couple of months
	ago called "The Inner Game of Music", which was co-written between
	a concert Bassist (Barry ....) and Tim Galwey of "Inner Game of
	Tennis" fame. They discuss goals of three types: Performance Goals,
	Experience Goals, and Learning Goals. It's worth checking out.


	I've gone to operating without a specific teacher. My goals are
	pretty simple:

		o Learn to read music as well as I can read English
		o Develop enough ear skill to transcribe directly to paper
			or to the instrument without "hunting"
		o Develop a modest (~60 song) jazz repertoire
		o Build ensemble skills thru regular playing sessions with
			others

	This has led to the development of concrete sub-goals - read this
	piece, do the exercises from that book, keep the pitch pipe in the
	car and sing on the way to work, get a duo going and practice the
	material.....

	My former teacher was of the opinion that anybody that had a good
	foundation in reading and music theory and had good physical habits
	on the instrument could find enough material to explore without
	needing a dedicated teacher. Just actually completing the Modern
	Method is work enough for most players.

	Anyway. I supplement all of this with intensive sessions. Two years
	ago I spent a week at NGSW. Last summer was 3 days at Berklee. This
	summer will be a week at Berklee. Maybe next spring it'll be a
	whole semester....

	FWIW - both NGSW and Berklee offer their summer programs in LA as
	well as Boston.

>                           -< connect the dots..... >-
>	Cool. I can identify with the frustration you feel with the non-
>	structured thing. I was trying to follow a teacher from a local
>	music store and there was no logical progression.
    
    Ahhh!  Finally, someone I can relate to! ;-)

>	There's an interesting book that I went through a couple of months
>	ago called "The Inner Game of Music", which was co-written between
>	a concert Bassist (Barry ....) and Tim Galwey of "Inner Game of
>	Tennis" fame. They discuss goals of three types: Performance Goals,
>	Experience Goals, and Learning Goals. It's worth checking out.
    
    I'll be searching for this, thanks for the pointer.

>		o Learn to read music as well as I can read English
>		o Develop enough ear skill to transcribe directly to paper
>			or to the instrument without "hunting"
>		o Develop a modest (~60 song) jazz repertoire
>		o Build ensemble skills thru regular playing sessions with
>			others
    
    That's pretty much where I want to go too.  I don't plan on making it a
    career, but I'd like to play/transcribe/read whatever I want and use
    them in the 2 most likely scenarios that I play out in.

>	My former teacher was of the opinion that anybody that had a good
>	foundation in reading and music theory and had good physical habits
>	on the instrument could find enough material to explore without
>	needing a dedicated teacher. Just actually completing the Modern
>	Method is work enough for most players.
    
    I'm also finding that I agree with this more and more.  It's also much
    easier to do what you want than to explain it to someone else and have
    them teach you.

>	FWIW - both NGSW and Berklee offer their summer programs in LA as
>	well as Boston.

    One of these years, I might do that.  L.A. is only an hour flight from
    here.
    
    thanks again,
    Mike

    I found out an interesting bit of trivia from some graduates over the
    weekend.  Somehow we started talking about Eddie Van Halen.  EVH only
    showed up at GIT once.  When he was there, he told them all (students)
    that they shouldn't be there, but should be in bands and playing clubs
    to learn the craft.
    
    They haven't had him back since...

    >When he was there, he told them all (students)
    >that they shouldn't be there, but should be in bands and playing
    >clubs to learn the craft.
    
    Doesn't sound like they briefed him before he talked......sheesh!

    >When he was there, he told them all (students)
    >that they shouldn't be there, but should be in bands and playing
    >clubs to learn the craft.

He has a valid point (after all, it did work for him), however, we don't
know what the crowd was that he talked to, or what thier goals were. I doubt
many classical guitarists would show up to See EVH (unless they also liked
that style of music too). On interesting thing, I never see anyone list that
they went to GIT on an album, But I do see quite a few recognised names who
run seminars there. This would side with Eddie, in that you can study all that
you want, but you have to go out there and do something with those learnings.
I took a years worth of guitar lessons back in 1966, and stopped because it
was going nowhere. At the time, It was more benifical to start working towards
some goals (an this meant playing music with other people). If I'd stayed with
the lessons, I might have gotten better, but the work with the band(s) taught
me an awful lot that I never would have learned thru lessons. My Instructor
was in a rock band (this is in Chicago), and was an exceptional guitar player
(so don't think that he was teaching me such exotic tunes as 'Clair De Lune'
and that I was just bored with him).

Of course, there is another quick test, Give me a list of Guitar players who
credit tGIT learnings to thier success in the industry. I'll bet that most
either play for thier own enjoyment, Jam with friends, or play in small time
bands. This is probably what Eddie wanted to make clear; If you want it, you
have to work with it in the real world. Heck, Eddie even managed the band
(I saw him at Gazzari's in Hollywood about a year before they got a recording
contract - at that time he played an Ibanez Destroyer, not a Strat).

							Jens