Conference napalm::guitar

    If you want a complete compact unit I might suggest a Yamaha MT2X
    casette deck.  It has a six channel mixing board built in DBX and
    effects loop. It works quite well and is only $450. You may also
    wish to look at some of the Tascam units as well.
    
    It sounds like thats the kind of market you are in. If you want
    more info or want something in an open reel let us know.
    
    Jim
    

    My priorities for 4-tracks (in approximate priority order):
    
    Essentials:
    
    	o Tape sync (this means it can bypass noise reduction on one track)
    
    	o Punch In/Out capability (preferably by footswitch)
    
    	o DBX noise reduction (NOT Dolby, and especially not Dolby B)
    
    Preferences:
    
    	o 2X speed
    
    	o Quiet mixer
    
    	o 2 effects send
    
    	o Stereo effects return
    
    	o 6 channels (instead of 4)
    
    	o "Feel" of tape transport controls
    
    MT2X meets most of these criteria and is very cost effective feature
    wise.
    
    	db

     I've got a TASCAM portastudio for sale with the mixing boards for
    sale. If you interested send mail to theis address or call
    
    							Dave Cole
    							297-5599
    

    You may also want to peruse NOVA::COMMUSIC since this gets hashed
    out there on a regular basis....
                                
    dbII

    Sorry, the system bombed out on my previous reply. I just wanted
    to say that I own a MT1X and like it. They don't make the MT1X anymore
    however. Check out the MT2X. My unit makes pretty decent tapes.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tony

	I have a Yamaha MT2X also.  It's a great unit.  My son uses it
	a lot, both to save/load ESQ-1 sequences and to record his
	compositions.

	As a side note, he found an interesting way to use the two
	speed feature when saving/loading ESQ-1 sequences:  for
	compatibility with standard cassette decks (as suggested
	to me by Dave Blickstein), he saves at 1 7/8 ips.  But
	he loads at 3 3/4 ips.  He found this by accident, and
	I was a little surprised to see it work, but he's been
	using it this way for a month or two.  Since I don't
	know if this "should" work or if it's a quirk, I can't
	say if this will work for others.  If anyone reading
	this has the necessary equipment, maybe they could give
	it a shot and let us know.


							John

    > as suggested to me by Dave Blickstein
    
    				     _
    This is news to me.  I have an MT1X which only has one speed.
    				     -
    
    	db

	re: .8

    				     _
>    This is news to me.  I have an MT1X which only has one speed.
>    				     -
>
>    	db

	I can't blame you for forgetting, but shortly after buying the
	MT2X I mentioned to you that I thought it might be a good idea
	to use the higher speed on the MT2X when saving sequences (better
	quality, you know).  You pointed out the danger of having the
	sequences saved at 3 3/4 and not being able to load them later
	with a normal deck if the MT2X was bunged up or otherwise
	unavailable.  As it works out, 1 3/4 ips has been fine.


							John

	Oops, I said 1 3/4 ips when I meant 1 7/8.


							John

    Well, seeing as I'm being given credit for a good idea, I can find
    no good reason to continue denying it.  ;-)
    
    	db

I've reposted this from COMMUSIC hoping to get help.  HELP !
    
    Okay, I'm a little sore...
    
    I sent the last few days recording some stuff on the MT100II.
    I finally think what I have is ready for a mix down to my regular
    deck, and my final product sounds like it's running thru a Leslie
    Speaker from an old beat up Hammond.
    
    What exactly is wow and flutter ??  Is this what I'm experiencing ??
    I always thought it was like the tape running at a different pitch
    each time you recorded it...Like having to mess with the pitch control 
    to get your gitar track in tune with the bass and rhythm track.
    
    Have I done something worng ?
    
    BTW - This is my first project on this 4 track...The thing is
    brandy-a$$ed-new.
    
    Help!

    I couldn't psych out from your note if the chorus effect occured
    when you played back your two-track master or when you listened
    to the stereo mix coming out of the board (which is listening to
    the four-track.
    
    Wow and flutter are two phenomena caused by changes in tape speed,
    which has the effect of raising and lowering the pitch of the signal.
    Flutter is a cyclic change in pitch which is relatively fast, like
    10 Hz.  Wow is relatively slow...maybe 0.1 - 0.5 Hz.
    
    Can you try putting a tone on a tape in the four-track and using
    it to fault isolate where the problem is occuring?
    
    Good luck.

    No function generator...Not even a casio CZ or something.
    Sounds like I'm experiencing severe flutter...  And it's definately
    coming from the 4 track like, thru my monitors (or headphones...)
    
    Sounds like a vintage leslie speaker.  Ack !  Doesn't complement my
    guitars tone at all.  
    
    Scope this out.  I grab a harmonic in this composition,, and dive with
    the trem....kinda slow, ya know ?  Sounds like one of those Vai tricks
    where he twangs the bar and lets the springs do their thing...except,
    I don't WANT it to do that...    ;(
    
    jc (who is about to scrap his whole tape and try a NEW tape...)
    
    PS - Brand new TDK SA90 !

    Re -.1:  A new tape is a good idea...TDK SA is certainly a high
    quality media.  Some folks suggest putting a tape deck in 'play'
    and letting the tape run trough to equalize the tension, but I
    don't think this is your problem; it sounds too severe to be a 
    tape tension problem (assuming it occurs with the new tape also).
                                    
    Any synths lying around your place or a friends?  You could take
    your new SA90 and record some tones from a synth on it.  Maybe
    four different A's, spaced an octave apart...five minutes of each
    (put a weight on the key).
    
    I *assume* you visually examined the tape path and have done all the
    maintenance type things the manual recommends?  
    
    Ultimately, if it is the tape machine, it can only be either the
    tape speed control electronics (telling the motor to speed up and
    slow down at flutter rates) or something mechanical, like a pinch
    roller that binds.  Because it's flutter, I'm guessing it's not
    mechanical, because I don't think any thing in the tape path spins
    at ~10 Hz.
    
    Have you tried varying the pitch using the speed control to see
    if there's any change in the characteristics of the flutter?

    As a suggestion, it sounds like it could have somthing to do with noise
    reduction (i.e. not compatible). What does your 4track have ? DBX,
    Dolby B or C. make sure that your mixdown deck has the same, if not, 
    turn of the noise reduction on your mixdown deck while leaving it on 
    your 4track and see if it goes away.
    
    Mike___

    I used a new tape last night.  I cleaned everything.  I played with
    pitch, DBX, EQ, tape speed (it's switchable)...Nothing changed.
    
    I've got the deck in my truck, and I'm going to bring it to a Yamaha
    dealer after work tonight.  This dealer *does* have another deck there.
    I thought I'd try playing my tape in his deck to see if it;s record
    mode or playback (I suspect thats it's record AND playback.  I'll also
    see if I can bring home the deck he has in stock to play with over the
    weekend.
    
    I hope it's something simple.
    
    jc (who'll let everyone know.)

    whats wrong with dolby B noise reduction? I have it on my Fostex x-26
    

dbx outperforms it by a bucnh in most applications.

ie: dolby b gets you ~6-10db noise reduction  dbx gets you ~30db noise reduction

dbii

    
    	Dolby C and DBX are where it's at.  

        That's two good reasons for the Tascam 424 purchase:
    
    	   1) DBX noise reduction
    
    	   2) high speed capability (plus normal,half, and pitch ctl.)
    
       I've been checking it our fairly thouroughly, and so far I'm
    impressed with the 424. Nice package, nice price, great documentation,
    and very portable. One gripe: Wall bug power supply (I hate those
    things!).
    
    							-B()()M-

    Re: 424 pitch/speed controls
    
    Can you playback normal 2 channel prerecorded tapes on these?  It would
    come in handy to figure out solos with.
    
    Mike

     Don't those Dolby systems eat up all of your high end though?  I
     kick on my 'dubbly' C on my stereo tape deck and everything sounds 
     like you've got your fingers in your ears.
      

    Ummm....Yes and no.
    
    Example:
    
    If you record your favorite CD and have the tape select and Dolby C
    on when you record, and you play back with the Dolby C on, you won't 
    notice much loss of high end... Sometimes you'll play back a tape that 
    was recorded without dolby on, and hit the ole Dolby button and it
    squishes everything.  Same-same with any noise reduction that I've had
    chance to play with.
    
>     I kick on my 'dubbly' C on my stereo tape deck and everything sounds 
>     like you've got your fingers in your ears.
      
    Chances are that tape was not recorded with DOLBY C.          
                                        
    jc (Who's 4 track has DBX and it CAN'T be beat for bagging the hisses)
                                                       

    
    
    Hey Boom, does the 424 have direct tape outs? Rumor has it hat it
    doesn't.
    
    -T
    

    Are tape outs that important ??
    
    I have them, but never used 'em (yet)...
    
    jc
    

      
    RE: the last few q's on the Tascam 424..
    
      The 424 can play a standard cassette at normal speed with 
    no pproblem, plus you have quite a range of pitch control
    for those times where the solos you're trying to cop are
    in the key of Z! Beats retuning my Floyd ten times a night!
    
      AND - The half speed will allow easier copping of those
    wicked fast licks, only an octave lower than at normal speed.
    I checked this out and it works fine.
    
      The 424 has RCA direct outs on the rear of the unit. If you
    reallly want to check out all the capabilities ask a dealer
    for the manual. It's fairly concise.
    						-B()()M-

    
    
    	re: 424
    
    	Yes, the 424 does have direct tape outs, but they share the
    same jacks as the stereo line outs. You have to flip a switch
    on the back of the machine to choose tape outs or line outs. 
    
    	I took a really quick look at the 424 and it does have a 
    lot of bang for the buck. It doesn't seem to be as well 
    built as some of the earlier Tascam machines, though. I don't
    know how well it would hold up if it were used "as a portable,
    so to speak. 
    
    	All in all, I'd say that the 424 is probably a good choice as
    an idea machine for guitarists. That 15/16 speed is really handy
    for figuring stuff out. 
    
    re: tape outs
    
    Coop, it's important if you want to use an external mixer. Most of 
    the midrange decks aren't real flexible where FX loops are concerned.
    If you have tape outs, you bypass the mixer on the deck and run
    to a mixer that's got the kinds of capabilities you need. 
    

        Regarding Dolby cutting out the highs...
        
        If your deck is in alignment and eq'd properly and working to
        spec you won't lose highs when using Dolby on a tape made with
        Dolby, or making a Dolby tape.
        
        Remember these things are mechanical and electronic.  They need
        service once in a while - usually once a year.
        
        You wouldn't play your axe without tuning it would you?  
        
        Bob

    I dont understand what db means so are you saying Dolby B is the worst
    noise reduction?
    

in short it's the lowest tech or performance noise reduction money can buy.

db is a logrhythmic function relating to signal levels.

dolby b pushes the noise floor down about 10db, dbx pushes it down about 30db.

every 3db is essentially a 50% cut or boost.

dbii

    	Yes, every 3db is 50%, but you do it this way. The first -3db cuts
    the said signal (whatever) by 50%, the next -3db cuts the remaining
    signal by 50%, and so on. Decibel measurement is logirithmic. -10db
    sounds like half the volume to our ears, +10 sounds like double. Get
    it?... 
           (now get your flame throwers out and we'll reopen this can of
    worms)
    
    	   I like dolby NR, DBX 'breaths' to much when you're recording
    things like acoustic guitar, bass, drums (if there played slow). Dolby
    doesn't because it because it only 'looks' at frequencies above 1k Hz.
    The more expensive, studio type, versions of DBX actually divide the
    frequencies up into multiple bands, do their trick, then recombine
    them. THEY work GREAT!!!
          

    
    
    re: 424
    
    I returned by (used, defective) Porta-2 and picked up a 424.
    
    I haven't really used it for anything, yet, but I'll post some
    info about it when I do..
    
    FWIW, Brian Rost posted a pretty good review over in commusic. 
    
    -T
    

    re .-1
    
    Where? How much? 

    Dolby B sucks - period.
    
    My experience with it is that when it works, it's at best decent.
    
    Most of the time it doesn't work - I'm told this is because it is
    very sensitive to calibration and goes out of calibration easily.
    
    I have WITNESSED a demonstration that Dolby B, when working properly
    doesn't squash the highs.  However, almost everytime *I* use it,
    it squashes the highs to the point where I find it preferable to
    turn off the noise redux on playback EVEN on tapes recorded with it!
    
    Dolby C is much better (less sensitive, better at eliminating noise,
    removes almost no highs when working properly), but dbx has in my
    experience been BY FAR the best.
    
    Only problem with dbx is that unlike Dolby B and C, you can't play
    an tape recorded with NR back on a unit that doesn't have that same
    NR.
    
    For my multi-track recording this is a complete non-issue and therefore
    and strongly recommend buying multi-tracks with dbx.  I consider it
    to be a big advantage.

    
    	Agreed Dolby C is in a different league than B.  My Denon cassette
    	deck has HX-PRO.  Is that the equivalent of DBX or something else.  
    	I can make recordings from CD with higher highs and they rival the 
    	noise levels of the originals.

    HX-PRO isn't like dbx or dolby.
    
    It's a recording optimization that needs no special decoding on
    playback.
    
    My unit has it, but as it is not defeatable, I have no way of telling
    how it effects the quality of the sound.

    
    db, (every/someone)
    
    I have a question:  If I record on a 4track with DBX, (DBX ON during
    recording and playback),and the time comes to dump the 4track master
    down to a 2 track/stereo cassette (on a different deck), should the 2nd
    deck have noise reduction on (Dolby B/C/dbx)?
    I usually have the 2nd deck noise reduction ON, but I wonder if I am 
    creating more noise than usual.
    
    thanks!
    chUck  

    I was told to do it this way.  If your master is recorded using noise
    reduction, turn off the noise reduction on this tape during dubbing. 
    Also turn the noise reduction off on the unit that is copying.  After
    you make the copy it will sound exactly like the master.  Now to
    playback the tape turn the noise reduction on.  Oh, this only works if
    you are using the same type of noise reduction on each tape.  The
    reason for doing it this way is supposed to be because each time you
    copy with the noise reduction on (especially with Dolby) there is a
    loss of high end which accumulates with each dub.  I may be wrong about
    all of this but it seems logical to me that you only need to use the
    noise reduction once to get the mose out of it.
    
    Byron

    Yes, when you mix down you should have NR on for both decks.
    
    The only time when you don't need NR on is if you are making an exact
    duplicate of a tape.  That is, if you have a dolby C master (stereo)
    tape that you want to make a dupe of, I believe the conventional
    wisdom tells you to make the copy with decoding and re-encoding the
    NR.
    
    Most duping decks seem to work that way, so I would think the same
    applies even if your copying between two decks.
    
    	db

    Byron, db
    
    Thanks!  It sure would/will be easier if mutiltrack decks went
    digital.  Then we could end some of the compatability/conversion 
    problems that turn up.
    
    It always seems the magazines such as Stereo Review have been receiving
    these same type of questions for YEARS, but the answers tend to be
    worded vaguely.
    
    Dolby B ----> Dolby B
      on    chUck   on
    

    So you're saying that when you mix down you should turn the NR on but
    not when duplicating?  
    
    Also, I've got an old TEAC 2340 which does'nt have NR.  I'm thinking of
    getting an external dbx unit for it.  Would I then need to have two of
    these units or can I just mix the four tracks down to two and then run
    it through the dbx?

    Does anybody know how to turn off dbx on the porta one so you can
    record a sync track on say track 1 and have noise reduction on the
    other 3??????????
    P.K.

    If it doesn't have a "tape sync" switch, chances are there's no way for
    you to do it.
    
    Note however that noise reduction doesn't NECESARILLY screw up your
    tape sync.  I once striped a tape sync track and recorded some
    live stuff synced to it BEFORE I remembered that I had not defeated
    the dbx on the track.  It still worked ok.
    
    It's just that tape sync tends to be very touchy and you want to try
    and reduce all the chances for failure.

personally I've never gotten sync to work with dbx enabled..

dbii

It works fine with Dolby B (all thats on my Porta-Studio #144 - circa 1981).
I can't turn off the Noise Reduction on this. I usually use the CUE output
for the signal back to the sequencer, but the AUX send works also. Record
with your EQ set to 0.

								Jens

    What Noise reduction is best for music with alot of distortion... I
    have songs with heavy distortion on everything except the
    drums....sometimes it seems when I turn reduciton on the background
    noise goes from a high pitched static to low pitch static.. like a bass
    boost.. IT totally destroys the high presence... other times it seems
    to work fine.. I dont know
    

        Let's put NR in some perspective - *all* nr units have some
        effect on the sound.
        
        However, there are some requirements that need to be made.  Dolby
        B will work on almost any cassette deck, even those transports
        that cost the OEM $10 in large quanities.
        
        Dolby C needs a better transport.  Dolby Labs requires
        manufactures to submit units to them for testing before they will
        license and sell the manufacture Dolby chips.
        
        Dolby S requires a very stable transport and high quality
        electronics.  Right now it is available on only two high end
        audio decks.
        
        Dolby HX-Pro was developed by B&O and is a servo circuit that
        varies the bias level to the record head based on the high
        frequency content and level of the signal.  This eliminates
        self-biasing of the tape and gives more high frequency headroom.
        
        The original DBX units were not suitable for cassette transports
        and had very noticable pumping, while the newer ICs are usable
        and work well even with cheap transports.
        
        If one notices, the quality of the transport has a lot to do with
        the performance of the nr unit.
        
        Another item that plays into nr performance is the electronics.
        Cheap resistors and capacitors with large tolerances change
        values over time and throws the eq off as well as contributing
        noise.  The change in eq gets exaggerated by the Dolby circuits.
        
        The tape head makes a real difference in that amorphious [sic]
        and sendust alloy heads exhibt less distortion than permalloy
        heads.  It is vey uncommon for a cassette deck to have its heads
        in alignment out of the box, as most head mounts use springs that
        settle as well as not being completely aligned at the factory.
        
        Adjustable bias for the tape that is being used is very
        important, otherwise the frequency response is off as is the bias
        which again causes problems with nr circuits.
        
        Bottom line here is - tape decks are electro-mechanical devices.
        If you want them to work well, it costs money.
        
        Bob

	 I've recently purchased a inexpensive (so they say!) 4-track.
   It's made by Tascam and I am having trouble recording from my amp.
Is it possible to record from my amp (Fender M-80) headphone jack to the
line in on the 4-track.  When I do this now the input level is way to high.
Even the clean channel is distorted.  If I can not do it this way, is there
any other way I can.  A mike is not a very good thing because I can't turn it
up to loud where I live (sigh!).  If this is not possible would I be able to 
it using a multi-effect type thing?  I would be willing to trade in the amp
for something I can use with the recorder.  If so any suggestions?

                           Thanks in advance - The Edman

    Umm...to risk asking the obvious, have you tried turning the headphone
    output level down on the amp?  It does allow you to control that,
    right?
    
    Greg

    Yeah, do what -.1 said: Roll off the headphone gain.  If you can't do
    that, you could run the guitar straight into the 4track, but you give
    up FX that way.
    
    Is there a mixer built in to this 4track?  If there is, are you sure
    you've got the input trim (if there is one) set low enough?
    
    Could you enter the model number of the Tascam?  
    
    If you try these things and nothing works, try a second channel, if you
    haven't already.

    re: .-1
    
    I've tried several times to run a direct signal from my guitar into my
    4-track and it never seems to sound good to me.  
    
    Another option if you just can't get your amp to work is to buy the
    Boss Line Driver preamp that Coop has for sale, it has an instrument
    level output with speaker emulation circuitry and sounds great for
    recording.  Has channel switching and everything too.  Good distortion
    sound as well.
    
    Greg

.50>    Umm...to risk asking the obvious, have you tried turning the headphone
.50>    output level down on the amp?  It does allow you to control that,
.50>    right?
    
     No, the amp doesn't have one.  Just the volume knob for 
the whole amp.  But when this is turned down I have to crank 
up the recording level on the 4-track which produces the same 
effect.


.51>    If you can't do
.51>    that, you could run the guitar straight into the 4track, but you give
.51>    up FX that way.
    
I tried this and the guitar sounds great, but what I was 
trying to do was solo over an acoustic guitar part.  I like 
the distortion + reverb from my amp, but on the 4-track it 
sounded like a transistor radio with a 100 watt preamp on 10.


.51>    Is there a mixer built in to this 4track?  If there is, are you sure
.51>    you've got the input trim (if there is one) set low enough?
    
It does have a trim level and I have turned all the way down.


.51>    Could you enter the model number of the Tascam?  

It is a TASCAM TEAC Professional Studio PORTA03 ministudio???
 
   
.51>    If you try these things and nothing works, try a second channel, if you
.51>    haven't already.

What do you mean a second channel?

        Since I  don't  have  a four track, I don't know if this will
        help, but I  can  at  least  explain what I set my brother up
        with.
        
        TEAC double cassette deck (record)
        Technics cassette deck (play)
        Yamaha GEP50 FX 
        Headphones
        Realistic Stereo Mike/Line Audio Mixer ($35)
        
        Tape decks through the  mixer,  Guitar  into FX, FX headphone
        out  to  mixer.  Headphones  from  tape  deck  that  we  were
        recording to. (TEAC)  
        
        By tweeking the input level on the GEP50 and using the RECORD
        LEVEL  controls on the tape deck and the mike/line mixer,  we
        eliminated  the  same    distortion   problem  that  you  are
        describing.  Most of  it seemed to be the line input from the
        FX, over driving the decks.    Best record level we found was
        around `5' on the VU meters.    Doesn't  seem to be much, but
        when played back over a real stereo  system,  it didn't sound
        bad at all !
        
        What's  all  this trying to say ?  Beats the hell outta'  me,
        but  you  may  want to play around with the FX and bypass the
        amp  completely.   Just use the headphones out  on  the  four
        track to  listen  to  what  you're  playing and what the four
        track is playing.  From there you can balance it all a little
        better.  Believe me,  I'm  no  pro at this.  .  .in fact I've
        been playing with this stuff  for  less  than six months, but
        what the heck, it worked for me and could help others too.
        
        Hope it does ! :^)
        
        Matt

    re .53: My idea of trying a second channel was to insure there isn't
    some problem with the electronics with either the mixer channel or the
    deck channel...typical fault isolation technique.
    
    Are you pegging the meters when you record; that is, do the meters
    show that the signal is too hot coming into the mixer and/or deck? I'm
    not too familiar with '03, but I seem to recollect you can assign the
    meter(s) to various points in the signal chain.  My WAG is that you've
    got a signal with an amplitude of +/- volts; the mixer/deck is usually
    happier with amplitudes of +/- millivolts.
    
    I'm confused by the lack of volume control on the M80: isn't the point
    of a headphone output to allow you to crank that coliseum sound without
    forcing the neoghbors to attend the concert?  Do you somehow defeat the
    speaker output?

   > My WAG is that you've
   > got a signal with an amplitude of +/- volts; the mixer/deck is usually
   > happier with amplitudes of +/- millivolts.
    
   Yes That's it exactly!  But is it possible to get a signal from my amp
that is +/- millivolts??  The reason I'm asking is because I really like
the sound I get from the distortion channel on the amp, plus I don't have
any other form of reverb.  If I were to buy an FX/preamp would I get the same
results?  What if I were to get a different 4track, I still have time to 
return this one.



   > I'm confused by the lack of volume control on the M80: isn't the point
   > of a headphone output to allow you to crank that coliseum sound without
   > forcing the neighbors to attend the concert?  Do you somehow defeat the
   > speaker output?


The master volume on the amp controls the headphone jack.  But even on it's
lowest setting, I am getting too much input for the 4track.

                   Thank's for the input so far!!! - The Edman

    You should try using the output marked "effect out" or "preamp out" if
    it has one.  This should be more like the level that your mixer wants
    to hear, plus the correct impedance.
    
    							Brian

    Who out there records their gigs?  What are using and what things have
    worked?  I've got a four track and I play in a four piece band in which
    everyone sings and plays.
    
    Hints?
    

We did it once with excellent results:

Came out of the four subs and onto our 4 track (from a Studio Master
board).  Very clean and impressive soundin'...

jc

    Re Coop: If you came out of the subs, did you feel like there was no
    ambience?  I've found in recording close-mic'd rock instrumentation the
    final mix sounded a little too clean or dry or sterile.  Adding a room
    ambience mic helped smooth things out.
    
    Unfortunately, I don't have a board with four subs (hear that, Santa?),
    so I'm hoping to use my ancient Tapco 6x1, plus the monitor send, plus
    the EFX send to get effectively three subs.  One nasty is the EFX send
    is post fader, so it'll be a little tricky.  I guess I could use the 
    fourth input on the deck to grab bass direct.
    
    If you had four tracks and an eight 'voice' band ( four vox, four
    instruments (gtr,gtr,bass,drums)), how would you split 'em up?  These
    tapes are meant for band QC, not distribution to the listening public.

Well, included in the four sub mixes was a 36 space rack of goodies
and it all went to tape like that.  I thought the sound was impressive,
but I like the idea of a room-mike(s).  Mainly because it sounds cool
to hear the crowd hollerin' and stuff...which was just barely audible on
the tape we made.

We liked the results so much that we had out sound man drag his trailer
down to our rehearsal studio to record us live at practice...  Thats our 
demo tape now...  You'll hear some of it on the Guitar Notes Vol. 4 tape
(fwiw).

We did the latest one subbed like this (although I'm not saying it's
right...):

Sub 1   Lead Vocals
Sub 2   Harmony vocals
Sub 3   Guitars Guitars and Bass
Sub 4   Drums

We did it this way for several reasons:

1.  We're really heavy on vocals, lots of harmonies and stuff - It really
    makes our sound, so we wanted that to come out *nice*  :)

2.  We wanted to make sure we had a good drum mix, in case the whole thing
    was a disaster - ergo, with a drum track, we could overdub the whole 
    thing again.  :)  As it was though, we kept everything and did it first 
    take (it was about 35-40 degrees in our studio with the snake going out 
    the door - I was freezin' !!

Also, we recorded "WarPigs" (old sabbath toon), and there are no backing vocals 
on it, so I bounced the guitar track over to track two and stereo-ized the
snot out of it...

jc

    
     
     Which is the better 4 track recorder in the $400- $500 range ?
    
      VestaFire Mr30
    
      Tascam 424
    
      Yahmaha MT120
    
      other....
    
    
      any good tips out there ?
    

================================================================================
Note 738.63                   Four Track Recording                      63 of 63
KDX200::COOPER "Step UP to the RACK !"                8 lines  14-APR-1992 14:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is the better ???? Ouch.

I don't know any others but I have a MT100-II, aka- MT120 (but cosmetically
different), and I love it.  I think the Tascam is way-hip too, but I've not
used one.

I'd have to say that most of the units in that price range are going to be 
very similar infunction and design.  Pick one !

    I'd say that the Tascam is the best of the bunch you mentioned, but
    it'd be close.  I believe it's also the most expensive...
    
    Greg

    Rookie......
    
    I borrowed a 4 track from a guy here at work.  It comes with no manual,
    and he (and I) know nothing about the unit or the topic of
    recording.  To use the thing, I'm in need of headphones (with 1/4"
    jack) so I can monitor my input and/or RCA type cables to output the
    signal for monitoring.  
    
    Stupid rookie questions:
    
    * can't I record out of my amp somehow?  Does my amps' headphone jack
    provide the right kind of output to go dircetly into the recorder?  How
    'bout my "line out" jack on my amp?
    
    * Is there a run of the mill mix level for recording rythm section
    stuff (like an acoustic guitar) as compared to a soloing guitar? 
    Should my rythm be 3/4 the level of the lead?
    
    * The *real* problem:  when this unit is on 'record', it turns REAL
    slow; I mean *real* slow.  When I play it back on my stereo cassette
    deck, the tape speed is 'normal' so my recording sounds like chipmunks
    on speed.  What the hell gives?  I see no way to change the rpm of the
    machine!
    
    Is this thing junk  I'm not gonna buy any periphals until I know what
    I'm dealing with....
    
    help!
    
    Steve

    >* can't I record out of my amp somehow?  Does my amps' headphone jack
    >provide the right kind of output to go dircetly into the recorder?  How
    >'bout my "line out" jack on my amp?
    
    The line out will work fine but the tone may sound real odd.  You will
    immediately learn what all the fuss about "speaker emulators" is all
    about.
    
    >* Is there a run of the mill mix level for recording rythm section
    >stuff (like an acoustic guitar) as compared to a soloing guitar? 
    >Should my rythm be 3/4 the level of the lead?
    
    Huh?  When laying tracks record everything real hot, with peaks up into
    the red.  When mixing down, mix levels so they sound good.  There are no
    "rules" on levels.
    
    >* The *real* problem:  when this unit is on 'record', it turns REAL
    >slow; I mean *real* slow.  When I play it back on my stereo cassette
    >deck, the tape speed is 'normal' so my recording sounds like chipmunks
    >on speed.  What the hell gives?  I see no way to change the rpm of the
    >machine!
    
    What brand is it?  Tascam offers a machine with three speeds (normal
    1-7/8, double 3-3/4 and half 15/16).  If that slow speed is normal for
    the machine, there is a speed switch *somewhere*.  Get some headphones
    and figure out if the tape sounds OK on the four-track.  
    
    >Is this thing junk  I'm not gonna buy any periphals until I know what
    >I'm dealing with....
    
    Again, what brand and model is it?  
    
    						Brian	

re: .65

Steve:

>    I borrowed a 4 track from a guy here at work.  It comes with no manual,
>    and he (and I) know nothing about the unit or the topic of
>    recording.  To use the thing, I'm in need of headphones (with 1/4"
>    jack) so I can monitor my input and/or RCA type cables to output the
>    signal for monitoring.  
    
Bring it into work sometime when I'm in the office and I'll look at it
for you (I'm in MEL around the corner).

Do you have a Walkman lying around the house?  If so, you can use the 
headphones from it.  You just need an adaptor to go from 1/8" to 1/4".
You can use your stereo for monitoring as well.

>    * can't I record out of my amp somehow?  Does my amps' headphone jack
>    provide the right kind of output to go dircetly into the recorder?  How
>    'bout my "line out" jack on my amp?
    
You can use the "line out" jack.  Keep in mind, though, that without a
speaker emulator it'll tend to have lousy tone.  If you're just using
the recorder for a sketch pad, you might not care.

>    * Is there a run of the mill mix level for recording rythm section
>    stuff (like an acoustic guitar) as compared to a soloing guitar? 
>    Should my rythm be 3/4 the level of the lead?
    
You should record each track at the highest level you can without incurring
distortion.  Worry about balance at mixdown time rather than record time.

>    * The *real* problem:  when this unit is on 'record', it turns REAL
>    slow; I mean *real* slow.  When I play it back on my stereo cassette
>    deck, the tape speed is 'normal' so my recording sounds like chipmunks
>    on speed.  What the hell gives?  I see no way to change the rpm of the
>    machine!
    
Hmmm, this sounds strange...most multitrack cassettes run at either the same
or double the speed of a "normal" cassette.  I've never heard of one that
ran *slower*.  Could be that something's wrong with it.  It isn't a Ross,
is it? 

>    Is this thing junk  I'm not gonna buy any periphals until I know what
>    I'm dealing with....
    
It might very well be junk.  What's the brand name and model?

-Hal

    RE: Hal and Brian.....
    
    I'll check the brand...I can't remember.  I'll bring it in tommorrow
    and give ya a buzz, Hal.
    
    PS....what's mixdown?  I guess yer teling me I can just record trax and
    then go back and re-mix it?  I knew the fancy studio stuff did this,
    but I didn't know the portable toys did.  It only has one cassette
    deck....how do ya re-mix?
    
    rooky

reL .68

>    PS....what's mixdown?  I guess yer teling me I can just record trax and
>    then go back and re-mix it?  I knew the fancy studio stuff did this,
>    but I didn't know the portable toys did.  It only has one cassette
>    deck....how do ya re-mix?
    
In a nutshell, you record something on each of your four tracks, then
mix them down in stereo to your "normal" cassette deck.

-Hal

    re: last few.....
    
    Thanks for the help guys.  This model is a Vespa Fire.  I had a phone
    con with Brian Rost that pretty much cleared up the basics.  I think
    with a headphone jack adapter, an RCA type cable, and a little free
    time, I'll be ready to attempt a multi-track recording.....
    
    I have a final exam tonight, then a 2 week break in grad
    school....maybe I'll give it a go.....
    
    Steve

    Careful man...  It's addictive (and a little frustrating sometimes).

>    This model is a Vespa Fire.
    
    Try Vesta-fire, unless it doubles as a scooter...

    >>Try Vesta-fire, unless it doubles as a scooter...
      
    
    ok, ok, OK!
    
    8^}