Conference napalm::guitar

    I find a metronome invaluable AFTER I have mastered the
    basic melody and rhythm of a tune and am trying to get it
    up-to-speed.  One of the biggest mistakes in the use of
    metronomes is in trying to use them "too soon".  The guy
    I take lessons from insists that I use my ear and count
    to master even the most complex rhythms then use the
    metronome to get the speed up.  It works ( even with 
    Latin rhythms, ya'll! )
    
    Regards
    Doug Dickerson
    

    I have a rhythm synthesizer built into my keyboard and use it
    extensively when recording stuff.  the click track is always the
    first thing to go down on the tape...  then i play around with
    the chord progressions and leads until they sound right.  adjusting
    the tempo when they don't.
    
    but when just doing finger exercises - no, then i just start slow
    and do 'em until i'm going as fast as i can.
    
    -max-

    I use my drum machine sometimes...lately as I've been working on
    some new techniques I have been doing alot of playing along with
    a record type pracctice so's I can steal those licks...
                               
    Playing with a tape or record is still my fav way to practice real
    time rhythm and solo playing. 'cuz if I get bored I can just reboot
    myself and jam....
    
    dave

    
    1)  Yes
    
    2)  It is a must for learning how to play at a consistent tempo.
    Everybody speeds up or slows down occasionally, but using the metronome
    gets you used to keeping an even speed.  I always use it for scale
    and arpeggio practicing;  I start at slow tempos, then work my way
    up until I can't keep up anymore.  
    
    I used to play bluegrass, where there is no drummer and the bass player
    keeps the time.  I found that working with the metronome helped
    me a lot, since I couldn't count on the drummer to "feed" me the
    time.  This, in fact, is a common problem I have noticed with many
    musicians I've jammed with; when there is no drummer, they have
    problems maintaining a rhythm at an even tempo.                                                
    
    3)  Most people I know hate them.  In the case of beginners, they
    often seem to think the thing is broken because *they* are speeding
    up or slowing down.  You have to learn to tune into that click to
    use one.  For practicing real songs, drum machines are a lot more
    fun.  Once they fall under $100, I expect the metronome business,
    at least among rockers, to decrease drastically.
    
    I don't expect to get rid of mine anytime soon.
                                                          
    

    re: .4
    
    One thing practicing to a metronome does is make you AWARE of WHERE
    you tend to speed up and slow down.
    
    	db

>>1) Do YOU practice with a metronome?

Always.  Although I differentiate between practicing and warming up - I
think the two have gotten confused in a couple of earlier notes.  I don't
use anything besides a guitar when warming up. I don't listen to what I
play when warming up because it is noise and is not nearly so important as
getting loose, stretching, and becoming "aware" of the guitar.  I don't
think it makes much sense to stretch in time. 

>>2) What, in your opinion, is the value of practicing with a metronome,
>>if any?

Practicing is very specific.  That is, I am practicing *something*. In
almost all cases, the practice can be more efficient when using a
metronome.  I learn whatever I am practicing more correctly and generally
quicker when using a metronome.  I disagree somewhat with an earlier note
that said they don't use a metronome when learning a new song.  I do, but
only when I'm learning a song from written manuscript.  My sight reading
has improved tremendously since I started doing that.  Granted, a metronome
doesn't make much sense when learning a song by ear.  But after learning
the song, I turn on metronome to see where I'm varying the tempo. 

I think using a metronome is incredibly valuable especially when a piece of
music has a difficult fingering, or requires a complicated picking
approach.  In these types of passages, I tend to redefine the rhythm (ever
so slightly) so that it *fits* the way I play - I've heard many musicians
do that.  A metronome will not let me do that and so it improves my playing
by expanding my technique to handle unusual (to me) passages. 

When using a metronome, I generally follow the method already outlined by
starting off slow and building up to tempo.  However before increasing the
tempo, I make doubly sure that I'm playing the piece correctly at the
current tempo.  Then I increase the tempo a small amount (4% - 10%) and
begin playing at the new tempo.   It makes no sense to increase the tempo
too much, or too fast, because you end up trading correctness for speed
(ala kids playing Eruption at the music store).  Ever notice that a
correctly-played passage sounds faster than the same passage played poorly
but at twice the speed? 


steve

    
    1. not often any more....hardly ever in the past but a little
    
    2. value? they don't make mistakes, they don't exploit the poor
    or uneducated, they don't take drugs or drink, they never disagree
    with reality, they never insult my beliefs.
    
    3. get a drum machine.
    
    

    
    Re: drum machines
    
    One thing those of you who recommend using drum machines overlook
    is that there are types of guitar music where drums are not normally
    present.
    
    

    
    
    
    re .8
    
    In that case, when playing the Sor and Tarrega Blues ;^), just
    program a rim shot or something similar into the drum machine.
    Of course, if thats the only type of stuff you play (it was for
    me many moons ago) then a simple metronome is definately the
    cheaper way out.  I think a drum machine is more versatile, but
    then again, it all depends on what genre(s) you play.
    
    ralph
    
    

    re: .8, .9
    
    For as long as I've owned my drum machine, pattern #1 (what the
    unit is set to when you power it up) has been a 1 bar 4/4 pattern
    with 4 rim shots, the first of which is accented (higher velocity).
    
    	db

    re.8
    ok....there are indeed types of music where drums are not
    present....
    
    are you saying that, wether there are drums or not in a song, there
    is always a metronome?
    
    i doubt it.
    in fact, i'll bet there's more songs with drums than with
    metronomes.
    
    in fact, i'll bet there are only a handfull of adventurous composers
    who used a metronome as one of the pieces of an arrangement...(me?)
    
    my basic point is this ; a drum machine can not only behave as a
    drum machine, it can also act as a metronome! where-as, a metronome
    can only be used as a metronome!....
    
    so forget the metronome, get a drum machine.
    

    
    OK, OK  I give up....
    
    My metronome cost me $19.95.   How much was your drum machine....
    
    8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    Merry Christmas, all....
    
    

    Dumb Question alert!!!
    
    Now that I have a metronome, I'm trying to figure out how to use it.
    What is the formula to convert a time signature to beats per minute?
    
    Example:  4/4 = x beats per minute
    
    Mike

    
    Re: .13
    
    Huh?
    
    You wind it up and let it go....8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    Most metronomes count in "1/1", i.e. they just go click-click.  The tempo
    setting is how many clicks/beats it makes per minute.
    
    							Brian

    4/4 time could be 100 beats per minute or 2 beats per minute.  That
    only means 4 full beats per measure. 
    
    					Bill

    
    	Most sheet music have metronome markings, like a quarternote = 60
    	BPM, so you set the dial to 60 and wail away.
    
    	Does this answer the question?
    
    
    	Guy
    

    Re: last 2
    
    Yeah I get it, thanks!
    
    Mike

    
    	I have decided to purchase a metronome and would like opinions
    	on models, wind-up vs battery, digital display vs pendulum, etc.
    	It don't gotta be fancy, I'm more interested in usability and 
    	durability.  Pricing info would be a bonus.
    
    	keeping time.
    	-pat (click, click, snare, bass, click, click...)

    The old standby Seth Thomas windup units sell for about $30. 
    Durability?  As long as you don't drop it a lot (they're made out of
    plastic these days rather than wood) it'll probably last forever.  I
    *have* dropped mine but it still works just fine after 15 years.
    Usability?  You need a level surface to place it on.  Then there are
    also the smaller German units (with unpronouncable names) for a bit
    more.  
    
    Electronic ones start in the $40 range but I find them annoying.  Maybe
    I'm too old fashioned. Roland is still making a version of the Dr. Beat
    which can do some odd time signatures and stuff.  Korg sells a tuner
    with built-in metronome  (DTM-12) if you wanna kill two birds with one
    stone.
    
    						Brian

    
    
    Or you could pick up a cheap used drum machine...
    
    

    Go for the used drum machine, IMHO. The 'one' of the measure can be
    accented on them and it makes counting much easier.

	I dunno if you forgot a smiley face, but...


	You may not want one, but IMHO,  you're
*much* better off getting one.  You can find good, useable
machines like the TR505  are under $100. It can do the
metronome thing *and* if you want to do drum stuff
later, you can do that too...


-T

    Patman,
    
    You can get various forms of the little electronic ones starting at
    about $10-$12 bucks.  These have more functions then the old analog
    ones, cost less, and will probably operate more reliabily longer.
    
    I've seen the little credit-card ones going for under $20.
    
    I have a little dinky Seiko one that I paid like $45 for about 6 years
    ago.  It looks like a digital stopwatch.  Has a clock (so you know how
    long you've practiced), stopwatch (handy for timing songs), an alarm
    (if you have an appointment), straight metronome (40-208 bpm, with a
    little LCD stripe that runs across the top to show the beat visually),
    varied metronome (where you can have an audio accent on every 2,3,4,5,
    or 6 beats, double time, and triplets), plus it generates tones you can
    tune with which from 415 Hz to 445 Hz base and allow you to generate
    all pitches of all 12 related notes off that base.
    
    I highly recommend it because the size is nicely portable and it's
    functionality rich.  These are still sold today, I just saw some down
    at Rice Music a few weeks ago.  I think they're cheaper now, about
    $30-$35.
    
    Greg (who should practice with his more!)

    
    	Thanks Greg and Brian. 
    
    	re: -2
    	
    	I owned a DR550 for a while anit made me crazy.  I'm a simple
    	blues man, computers are a fad (hopefully).  8^)
    
    	-purist pat

I've used my drum machine in real-time edit mode...  Makes a nice click,
with the 1st beat of the measure and stuff - no programming...

But I do know that Pat has a drum machine, so I can dig where he's coming from.

jc

    re: .24
    
>    little LCD stripe that runs across the top to show the beat visually),
    
    That's in case you're deaf, right?  :-)
    
    Dave

    Yeah, something like that.  8^)
    
    Perhaps more useful if your guitar (or amp) is too loud for you to hear
    the little "beep" the thing makes clearly.  The volume isn't adjustable
    and even a powerful acoustic could render it unhearable in certain
    circumstances.
    
    Could also be useful for extremely low volume practicing, as the stripe
    keeps dashing across the little LCD screen whether you turn the "beep"
    on or not.  The beep can become annoying to people not involved with
    your practicing REAL fast...
    
    I always like the metronomes with a little light on 'em, but I like the
    stripe better because it gives you a visual indication of partial
    beats.
    
    gh

    
    
    
      Pat, you _didn't_ like the 550?    I am in love with mine.  I guess
    the difference being you gig and I don't.   The 550 just makes things 
    come together soooooooo nicely.   I no longer have the feeling that
    I'm just playing with myself now, (or playing by myself might be better
    said.) 
    
      BTW, I didn't say the above so yousse guyz can have fun, but the
    shields are up now anyway. 
                                 8^)
    
    
      Rick.
    
          

    
    
    
          Oh yeah, I meant to say that I have a met at home that you can
    have cheap, say 20 bones.    Cost 45, hasn't been used for more than 
    an hour or two.   Quartz.  Click, flash, or click and flash.
    
          Rick.  
    

    I wanna get a cheapo drum machine...any ideas?

    Tap your foot ... 8^)

    
    if you have an old-farmhouse like mine, there are NO level surfaces
    for the metronome - mine is very idle these days.  Anything that will
    give an electric precise tick (tse-tse-tse) is sufficient.
    
    	bob

    ....or the Duracel rabbit?
    
    
                                                  staynz

DuraCell has a Rabbit in Scotland, Staynz ??  I think we have a rabbit for
Energizer here.  :)

jc

    sod off farty,I knew it was one or the other  ;)
    
    
    staynz............humph!!

Sod off...  Wagagagaaa...  I love colloquilisms.
See, on this side of the pond - SOD is what rich people put on their lawns.
(Jab, prod, poke... :)

>See, on this side of the pond - SOD is what rich people put on their lawns.

    
    	Nope, I don't gig either.  I just plain don't like messin around
    	with processors which includes drum machines, signal processors,
    	well you get the idea.  My life seems complicated enough at times,
    	I just wanna play - not program.
    
    	jmho, not for everyone.
    	-pat
    
    	p.s.  re: Jerry ("tap your foot")  yuk yuk yuk
    
    		  

	I had a DR-550 and it drove me nuts, too. Why? Cuz I'm a geek
	and if I can program it, I will. So I spent too much time
	dorking around with the machine and not enough time playing
	music. It was a wonderful machine but more than I needed so
	I sold it.

	My current machine is a DR-110 Graphic. I found it in the case
	at Daddy's Nashua for $30. It dates to ~1983 and sounds muy
	cheezy. It has open and closed hats, snare, bass, cymbal, clap
	and accent. I can get 4/4 16ths, 3/4 16ths, 4/4 triplets and
	so on. Best part is that it programs in a full display with
	all the voices visible at the same time. It runs on batteries
	or uses Boss PSA-120 AND I can plug my guitar into it and
	play drums and guitar into my phones. It acts as my metronome.
	I set it up to play swing eights with an accent on 1 and away
	I go. Not enough features to suck me into building kits and
	goofing with guiros and samba whistles.

    re: .28
    
>    Could also be useful for extremely low volume practicing, as the stripe
    
    Like with a headphone amp, so *nobody* knows you're practicing.
    
    Dave

    re: buck
    
    Watch the ads in here and COMMUSIC, used drum machines pop up fairly
    often for good prices.
    
    gh

I've had one of those little German thngs with the unpronouncable name 
(mini-Taktell or a near equivalent) since I was in college(15 yrs). I used 
to carry it around in my guitar case, in the little pocket. It still works 
just fine and has even survived being loaned to a couple of students. I 
have no idea what they get for them anymore, but they weren't real cheap 
back then. However, it did last. Doesn't do anything fancy, just clicks, 
with a little arm that swings back and forth.

leo

    OK, I need (maybe) a new metronome.  My teacher has given me some
    exercises at near-death tempi (like under 40 bpm) and suggested retiring
    my old buddy Seth Thomas since wind-up metronomes get inaccurate at
    such slow tempi.
    
    My drum machine gets down to 36 bpm, so I need to know if there are any
    elctronic metronomes out there that go lower (if not, I guess Roland is
    my new jamming partner).  
    
    Also any particular brand recommendations (be specific about what you
    like/dislike about it)?  Something with an earphone jack and *volume
    control* would be nice so I could jack it into the amp.
    
    							Brian

But will your dog (or cat) enjoy watching it as much?

    Dunno if it would interest you, but my MC500 gets down to 10 BPM.
    
    Edd

    Am I misunderstanding something?
    
    Why does it matter that your drum machine only goes to 36 bpm?
    
    Instead of using the drum machine's click, why not just program in 
    a simple pattern using half notes instead of quarter notes?
    
    I find that a closed hi-hat sound or the "side stick" sound make 
    good substitutes for the "click".

    Re: .48
     
    Hmm, you're right...I could get it down to 9 bpm that way.  Oughta be
    slow enough, 6.7 seconds per quarter note  8^)  8^)   
    
    OK, Roland it is...
    
    						Brian

    
    
    You could do the same thing with a QY-10 and it fits where the sun
    don't shine...
    
    
    
    
    like in your pocket...
    
    

Another low cost solution (even known to work)... run that Seth-Thomas at 80 
and use every other beat.  80 is reasonable for those klunkers.