Conference napalm::guitar

    
    Mike,
    
    Regarding what has "good sound" one question to consider is "What
    kind of music would you like to play?".             
                                                       
    Just because 10 people think a guitar has a good sound doesn't
    mean it will to you, or for what you intend to play.
    
    As far as a recommendation, I'm a real amateur guitar player, but
    I like Alvarez-Yairi (great action).  I don't know how their
    acoustic-electrics sound though, as I've only played an acoustic.
    
    Matt  
                                         

    i love guild guitars - i think they're beautiful to look at, great
    to play, and sound as good if not better than gibsons and martins.

    i never liked the sound of an ovation w/o electricity, too tinny
    and the round backed ones are a pain 'cause they slip off my leg.
    but they do have great action and they sound OK when amplified.
    
    the latest technology for electrifying acoustic guitars places a
    real thin pickup under the bone in the bridge - it's invisible and
    the wiring can be routed out through the rear strap peg hole.  Some
    guitars come this way, but it's a modification that can be made
    to any by a competent guitar technician.  There's also a bunch of
    insert-into-the-soundhole pickups that can do a decent job.

    don't rely soley on what other people tell you about guitars
    
    got to some music stores, look at what's hanging on the walls and
    ask to see and play them.  then come back into this arena and see
    how others feel about the guitars you like.

    Unamplified Ovations do sound a bit thin, but they amplify really
    well.  I haven't tried the Takamine acoustic/electric, but I heard
    some good reports on it.  I think Ry Cooder has been using one.
    
    As for the action - if the guitar's not defective, any competent 
    technician can adjust it to suit you.  
    
    Bob

    
    	From the FWIW Dept:
    
    		I agree with Max (.2) about not just "taking anybodys
    	word for it".  I own 2 Ovations (one since 1971), but I went
    	to the local music shop and tried each one out BEFORE I decided
    	to buy it.  The Ovations give me what I want - I can use them
    	amplified or just acoustically (for composing) - that may not be
    	the same thing that you want.  
    
    		'Hit' the store and try 'em out - go by what "feels"
    	and "sounds" right to YOU.  Take your time - for me, the in-
    	strument I chose I'll be "living with" for a long time - tho'
    	that may not apply for you.   Whatever you decide on, make sure
    	it's "right" for YOU.  Living with a guitar that "doesn't feel
    	'right'" can sometimes cause "problems" when playing.
    
    
    					Hope it helps     :^)
    
    						Rich

        I would agree first off that you MUST try the particular instrument
    that you are interested in. The best sounding guitar that I've ever
    heard was a Guild. It had a very full tone, was build solid as a
    rock, and seemed very easy to pley. On the other hand, the owner
    of that guitar also has another Guild of just about the same vintage
    (15-20 years old) that has a very weak sound and is extremely difficult
    to play.
    
        I personally have a 12 year old Yamaha that is a rare Yamaha
    indeed. It's the only one that I've ever seen that really sounds
    full. It still has that 'slinky' feel that every other Yamaha has
    but I really feel comfortable with it.
    
        As far as Takamines go, I've heard (never played) some very
    fine sounding ones. Jerry Garcia uses one for his acoustic work.
    
    pcv
    

    I would have to second the recommendation for Guild. I have a
    ten year old F48 Jumbo bodied Acoustic. I would recommend you
    look at the newer ones with the nice slim necks. Mine, has a
    bigger, broomstick neck, which I like, but many would find too
    big. 
    
    Years ago, Ovations was the only electric that sounded great 
    amplified. Now-aday's Everyone offers Bridge pickups with
    built-in preamps, vol, bass, treble controls, adjustable
    intonation/action. I think the pickup system described in an
    earlier note is the Martin Thinline II. While this pickup
    may have a good sound, it is a bitch to install on a non-
    electric guitar. It doesn't compare to the factory installed
    pickups with an individual coil for each string, and built-in
    preamp with controls. These pickups are available on many of
    the new acoustics including Ovations, Guild, Alvarez Yairi, 
    Yamaha, Washburn,etc. I personally prefer a guitar that is all
    wood, and as was mentioned earlier, Ovations guitars don't
    sound very loud, or bright unamplified. I would also warn
    about problems with neck attachment on Ovations guitars. The
    newer ones may be ok, but I know many people had problems with
    them years ago. 
    
    Considering the amount of money you are willing to spend, you
    should be able to find a really beautiful instrument. I would
    suggest you try one with a cutaway, which allows for easy access
    to the higher frets. One other thing to consider is the tone that
    you want. Most moderately priced acoustics are made of mahogany.
    Mahogany has a deep warm tone. Maple, on the other hand has a much
    brighter tone, and has much nicer grain as well. A guitar with
    curly maple sides, back, neck, spruce top would have a really
    clear, bell-like tone. Guild offers one with curly maple, cutaway,
    pickup. If ever there was a dreamy acoustic, this is the one.
    Don't take my word for it. Go out and try a bunch of guitars. 
    I would suggest you look at McDuff's, Mr C's, Wurlitzers, Union
    Music, and Ricky Dee's, as well as any other music stores within
    a reasonable driving distance and get an idea exactly what you
    want. If you buy used, you could probably get a 800-1000 dollar
    guitar for 500-600. This would probably be your best bet.
    
    	Good Luck 
    
    							Mark Jacques
    

    
    
    	You gotta give us a little more info... If you want an acoustic
    for your  own enjoyment and maybe once in a while an electric than
    I suggest going with a nice Guild.. I played guild for years and
    have no complaints. They are one of the sweetest guitars with good
    action and excellant sound. However if your planning on playing
    out proffesionally than that's where the Ovation blows away the
    Guild. I used my Guilds with two pickups a barcus berry and a
    Bill lawrence at the same time.. It still can't compare to my
    Ovation elite 6 string and twelve electrically...
    
    	The Ovations have a quicker action and have bass and treble
    and graphic equalizers built right on the body of the guitars.
    
    But now your talking $1200.00 bucks verses $750.00 or so...
    
     Don't get me wrong the guild sound ok with pickups but if you heard
    or played a nice Ovation there is no comparison amplified...
    If your not playing proffesional all the time go with the Guild...
    
     ( Brian goss who used to Hate Ovations...)
                                                                      

    Re, .7
    Guild also offers bridge pickups, with preamps, volume, bass, treble
    controls built right into the body like an Ovations. They also
    now offer real slim necks with excellant action. These guitars
    can be had new for around 700-800 dollars with HS case. I would
    bet these guitars sound and play just as nice as any electric
    Ovations. Ovations has also had problems with neck attachment,
    as well as the top coming loose from the sides. The reason for
    this is because wood expands/contracts with temp and humidity,
    lexan does not. Over time these guitars have the tendency to
    pull themselves apart. Ovations may have cured this on their
    newer guitars (not that I know of) but the old ones were known
    for getting homesick for the factory. The Ovations factory was
    the only place qualified to make these repairs, and it tended
    to take months to fix these guitars when they were sent back.
    Enough said.
    
    One other suggestions. Consider size when buying an Acoustic. Mine
    is a Jumbo bodied guitar. While these have a very full tone, they
    tend to be somewhat cumbersome to play. They are so big, and the
    lower bouts are so wide, that they are harder to get your arms
    around. I would suggest you stick with a dreadnaught sized acoustic
    as these still have a full sound, and are more comfortable to play.
    Also, I believe the cutaway style guitars are all dreadnaught size.
    I've never seen any Jumbo guitars with a cutaway, but I'm sure if
    they are not being made, eventually, they will be.
    
    							Mark Jacques
    
    

    The recommendations so far on Ovation has been right on the
    mark.  Excellent amplified, a trifle weak acoustic.  THE
    question you have not answered for us yet is whether you
    intend to use the guitar primarily amplified or un-amplified.
    This is important as there is no "free lunch" here.  The best
    sounding acoustics rarely perform to the same level when
    amplified. (And those that do are $$$$).
    
    One additional $0.02 worth... One of the better acoustic-
    electrics is the Washburn.  The acoustic sound is quite good,
    construction quality is generally excellent and the electronics
    are especially effective in creating a good acoustic sound
    even when amplified.  I don't own a Washburn but have played
    friend's and am impressed at the value for the $$$.
    
    Please let us know a little more about how you will use your
    new baby and we might be able to give some more useful advice.
    Have fun.  Shopping for a new guitar is better than a free
    shopping spree at the toy store.
    
    Regards
    Doug Dickerson
    

    Hi again.
         First, thanks a whole lot for all the input about guitars.
     These conferences have enormous potential value, and I feel like
    I'm getting a lot of actual value out of this one.
         Primarily, I will be playing the guitar for my own enjoyment,
    without amplification.  One of the ideas I've been toying with,
    however, is finding some people in my area to do some jamming with.
    Playing professionally, on a small scale, is almost but not totally
    relegated to fantasy status.  I won't be playing any jazz or classical.
         So far, from what has been written here, I think I'll stay
    away from the Ovations, largely due to the price and physical problems
    mentioned.  I will check out the other guitars mentioned here,
    especially Guilds and probably Washburns.  I will also due a lot
    of checking around and playing to find the best I can afford, as
    several people have suggested.
         Somebody, in a far distant, previous note mentioned Taylors
    and Santa Cruz guitars, I thing it was.  Are they well beyond my
    $750 limit?
                             Mike

    
    yes re-1
    
    	I was gonna suggest washburn's, definately a decent guitar
    acoustic and electric.. And for the price ya can't beat them...
    
    
    			b.g.

    Santa Cruz and Taylor are both big bucks alternatives to Martin
    Guitars. We are talking at least 1500.oo or more. 
    
    In case I haven't mentioned it, Takamines are quite nice, especially
    for the money. However, if you want something really distictive,
    or something with exotic wood (like curly maple or rosewood) you'd
    have to look at something more expensive. Rosewood is nice, but
    I prefer the curly maple. In my mind it is the prettiest wood, and
    produces a really rich tone. Alvarez Yairi is bigon Rosewood, but
    for an acoustic/electric Yairi, I think were are talking around
    1000.oo 
                      
    As was mentioned in an earlier note, Jerry Garcia has used, among
    others, Takamine. If you listen to the acoustic live album, Reckoning,
    he used a Takamine for the entire album. These days I believe he
    is using something custom made. 
    
    							Mark J.
    

        In May  I  got  a  beautiful  Guild  JF-30  at MacDuff's Music in
        Shrewsbury, which was  in  your  price  range.  It is curly maple
        back and sides with  solid spruce top.  It is a jumbo, but it has
        the new smaller neck Guild  has  been  making  since spring 1987.
        The JF-30 has a very bright  tone  with good sustain.  The action
        is also good, though this varies form  guitar to guitar it seems.
        I happen to know that MacDuff's has a  number  of new Guilds with
        QUITE nice prices - not all maple, though RIGHT  NOW.   I love my
        Guild.  What I did was go in with cash,  and  try every guitar in
        my range until I found the one I liked best out of what he had at
        the time.   I  believe  Guild  makes an acoustic-electric cutaway
        which you might be  able  to find at MacDuff's and it might be in
        your range, (or maybe just  a  bit  over.)  I strongly suggest as
        reading note 95.1 before you go  to buy.  I used that stategy and
        I got a very good deal!
           

    Rich MacDuff was very wise to pick up the Guild Franchise. Union
    Music used to have the biggest Guild franchise in the are but they
    let it go. Guild is a very good brand to carry these days since
    the company has been bought out by, among others, George Gruhn,
    of Guitar Player magazine fame. They have kept the traditional
    style instruments, but have come out with many up to date features,
    and very fine construction. Their ads lately, have featured Eric
    Clapton. They also made the wise choice to keep their manufacturing
    in the US, rather than move to Japan. People buying this type of
    traditional instrument, in many cases, want to buy American.
    
    	Good Luck, and have a Merry Christmas,		Mark Jacques
    

    Acton Music (is that the name of the place near the train station
    in acton that looks like a converted church?)  used to have a large
    selection of Guild guitars - don't know about their prices tho'.
    
    -ma x-

    I mentioned the Taylors and Santa Cruz guitars, and they are rather
    big buck Martin alternatives for the best models - usually between
    $1400 - 2000.  They make some less expensive models but they are
    still in the $800-1000 range at discount.
    The guitars mentioned so far are good alternatives.  I'm not a big
    Ovation fan though.
    

    So,
         This is the first time I've been able to get back into this
    conference for a long while.
    I wound up buying a Washburn 6 string cutaway that I love, for just
    under $600, including hard shell case and taxes, at Martin's on
    Highland Street in Worcester, Ma.  He showed me what he paid for
    it and what the list price for it was.  It seemed like a good deal,
    and even if it isn't I love the guitar, and my wife paid for it
    out of her antique business on the side.  So I couldn't go wrong.
    I also bought a Washburn 12 string at the same place for $250.
         I checked out some guilds between $500-600 at McDuff's, right
    near Spags.  Really slender necks and great action, but I liked
    the Washburn better.  Later on I looked at a few Ovations, one of
    which was selling for over $900.  I didn't like the things, it turns
    out.  While this is something like somebody who has just learned
    to finger paint saying he doesn't like a Picasso, I'll be damned
    if I'm going to spend $600 of wife's hard earned money on something
    I don't like.
         So thanks for all your advice, folks.  I'm sure it will come
    in handy for other people later on.
         I live in Holden, very near Worcester.  I play old music, using
    a pick most of the time.  By old, I mean 60s and 70s top 40.  I'm
    95% certain I would do most of the learning, but now I want to know
    if anybody is interested in doing a little jamming.  I haven't played
    guitar with anybody else for a long time, but I remember that was
    a lot of fun.  Send mail.
                                  Mike

    An interesting story about Washburn. I went out to eat at the
    Southworks Restaurant (Grove st, Worcester) a while back and 
    on the front page of the menu, they tell the history of the
    old mill which is now the Southworks complex. It used to be
    owned by the Washburn Musical Instrument company. They made
    Piano wire, as well as musical instrument strings. During WWII
    they made wire for the military. The mill was closed back in the
    fifties, and reopened during the sixties as a cluster of small 
    stores.
    
    Just a bit of Trivia for a Washburn owner.
    
    Mark Jacques
    

    MIKE, I have to admit, Guild use to make some beautiful guitars.
    I owned a Guild F50-R in 1977 and eventually traded it for a Martin
    HD-35. I recently ordered a Guild GF-60 from a local music store
    in Colorado Springs. I paid $1100.00 cash up front and 6 weeks later
    my guitar arrived. I opened the case and the nightmare began. My
    guitar looked more like a factory reject than Guilds' top-of-the
    line instrument. The fingerboard was pitted, the neck was warped,
    a piece of the inlay on the headstock was chipped, and of course
    the guitar salesman and his manager were at the NAMM Convention
    when my guitar arrived. I called Guild Customer Service and their
    response was have the store manager get it repaired. Of course you
    know, I didn't want my brand new guitar repaired, I wanted a NEW
    guitar. To make a long story short, I got my money back and Guild
    got the garbage they called GF-60. I went to another dealer and
    bought a TAYLOR Dan Crary model. In my opinion that is one of the
    finest acoustic guitars I have played in my 27 years of playing.
    I noticed you said you did not want to spend more than $750.00
    for a guitar. I believe that the TAYLOR 510 or 555 is about in 
    your price range. It is American made (Santee,CA) and has a sound
    far superior to most MARTIN,GUILDS,OVATIONS or other custom guitars
    I have played. If you are interested, I have some contacts you can
    talk to about prices. If you have any other questions feel free
    to call. I just don't want to see anyone else get burned by Guilds'
    apathetic attitudes towards their customers or the lack of quality
    in their instruments!!!
    
    Joel McKenzie   DTN: 522-3989
    CXO3-1/K4       7R7NET::MCKENZIE

    I agree with you. It sounds like they sent the guitar parcel post.
    A new guitar should be nearly perfect, with only minor adjustments
    needed. If you pay $100 for a guitar, you can expect a bit less
    than when you pay $1000 for one. I live here in Colorado Springs
    also, What store did you purchase thru?
    
    By the way, I'm doing a quick market study on How many Left handed
    guitar players there are out there. My Brother-In-Law has an NC
    machine for turing out wood products. He's made (& still has
    the program for) Left handed Stratacaster bodies - His Son is
    Left Handed. How much interest is there in such a thing. My
    Brother-In-Law wonders if he should make a bunch of these up and
    sell them or not. I've talked to a few music shops & there is some
    interest, but, I'd rather hear from guitarists.
    
    							Jens

    Hi Jens, I ordered the Guild through ProSound a guy named Walter
    Chase. Walter tried to work things out but Guild wasn't cooperative.
    So I bought my TAYLOR through RICE MUSIC, owner Larry Rice. This
    store used to be owned by Johnny Smith (the Pro Jazz Guitarist).
    I think now he is more of a silent partner. Rice Music is the only
    authorized Taylor dealer in Colorado Springs. I heard there were
    about 4 other dealers between Denver and Boulder. Thanks for your
    response.

    Geez, you'd think a place as big as ProSound would have a little
    more pull than that.  Sounds to me like they didn't try too hard.
    Was that your perception?  If so, I'll probably avoid doing business
    with them.
    
    Greg

    My experiance with ProSound has not been great, even tho I've spent
    over $2000 there in the last 6 years. Right after I bought my Teac
    Porta Studio, they switched over to FOSTEX & turn around and tell
    be that the Teac was Trash (a sure way to win my heart). Other similar
    experiances abound from other people who frequent it. My favorite
    happening was when I wanted to try out the Roland Guitar MIDI box
    & found out that no one knew how to use it. Pretty impressive, Huh?
    
    If you know what you want, and it's hanging up on the wall, then
    you are in a position to deal with them. If they don't have it,
    they usually check thier other stores & send it down, or order it.
    The person that they have to do thier guitar set ups & repairs doesn't
    seem to be very knowledgeable on anything but Solid body Electrics,
    and spends very little time with anything else other than pickups
    & whammy bar modifications. They know that the Acoustic guitar has
    little follow on sales (no need for a Marshall Stack, or Stomp boxes),
    so, the emphasis seems minimal. A tough life, but, If you go to
    someone who cares a top quality line of the type of instruments
    that you are into, you can usually find someone who cares. ProSound
    tends to want to sell you something as fast as they can, Nothing
    more, nothing less.
    
    						Jens

    	I have had poor luck at Prosound as well. I get the feeling
    that Walter is more interested in the buck than service to good
    customers. I am looking for another music store at this time. The
    only reason I have been going to Prosound is if they do not have
    a product in stock, they can check with the Denver and Boulder
    stores. One point in their favour is that the electric guitars 
    are set up by Duane Waterman who in my opinion does an excellent
    job.
    	Getting back to the subject, what other acoustic guitars does
    Rice music carry besides Taylor? I have to admit, I was saddened
    when Johnny Smith left the operation. It was nice to pop in and
    talk with one of the greats. I haven't been in since Johnny left.
    
    Don
    

    Don,  I appreciate your response. Rice Music carries a wide variety
    of instruments in all price ranges. I know for a fact that he carries
    Gibson, Heritage, and Taylor for his top line and he carries Yamaha
    and a few other various Japanese models for his less expensive line
    of instruments. But you will definitely find the personal touch
    there, that we would never find at ProSound. By the way, I'm not
    sure about this but I think Johnny Smith might still be a silent
    partner in the store. I don't think Larry Rice was able to buy the
    store from him outright, and you know how business goes. I know
    Larry is building a studio downstairs in the store, and I've seen
    Johnny in there several times rehearsing before he goes on the road
    so I still think he hangs around there more than we know about.
    Well must go. Later
    
    Joel McKenzie

    Any comments on Fender acoustics, specifically Gemini 3. I'm aware
    of the fact that it is a "cheap" guitar but was wondering if
    Fender makes a quality acoustic in general. Price is 145.00.

    
    	.17 - I used to dislike Ovations also - until I spent my 900
    for a 1982 collectors edition. I have never regretted buying this
    one - it even overcomes the "thin" complaint when unelectrified.
    Matter of fact, when ever I need acoustic when playing with my 4-track,
    I mike the sucker - it is a truly fabulous machine...
    
    	For reference - my previous (and totally unafordable) dream
    was the Martin D45, which ran for around $2400 in 1972. And,even
    better, I can plug this thing in and let is scream if me heart so
    desires. So what if I have to always use a strap - small price
    for a truly great instrument!
    
    					bs

    THIS IS A LITTLE GENERIC INFORMATION FROM ONE GUITAR PLAYER TO ANOTHER.
    I HAVE PLAYED SEVERAL FENDER ACOUSTICS IN THE PRICE RANGE OF ABOUT
    $300.00 TO $400.00 AND AS BEST AS I CAN TELL THE ACTION IS ABOUT
    2 FEET OFF OF THE FINGERBOARD AND THE SOUND IS VERY WEAK. IN MY
    OPINION FENDER SHOULD STICK TO MAKING STRATS AND TELECASTERS. BUT
    I GUESS FOR $145.00, IF IT LOOKS LIKE A GUITAR, YOU'RE PROBABLY
    NOT DOING TO BAD! AS AN ADDED NOTE, I USUALLY ADVOCATE BUYING
    AMERICAN GUITARS BUT FOR THE LOWER PRICE RANGE ($150-$300) I THINK
    YAMAHAS ARE STILL A REASONABLY GOOD GUITAR FOR THE MONEY!
    
    JOEL MCKENZIE

    .26 mentions a Gemini III model by Fender.  I saw one of these recently
    and was wondering what it was like.  This one was finished so I
    couldn't tell if it had a solid top or what.  I liked the guitar and
    could get a good deal on it, but I don't really know anything about
    that model.  Could someone describe it's features?
    
    Greg