Conference napalm::guitar

    That's what I use...I'm also a bass player.
    It does the job,helps me keep in time when I'm alone.

    How much you be looking to spend??
    
    Edd

    $100 or less..
    
    Peter O

    What's a good drum machine in the < $300 range?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    Windshield wipers, on high.    8^)
    
    Scary

      .. I would check out the new Roland Dr. Rhythm (DR-550?). It's
    a 16 bit unit like the Alesis HR-16, seems to be built well, has
    a lot of storage (long songs!), and I've seen it in catalogs for
    $239!  Check it out Mike!
    
    							-BooM-
    							

I'd also look for a used HR-16 great drum machine!

dbii

    Don't confuse that with the old Dr. Rhythm.  That name's gone for a
    pretty long progression of drum machines, most of them total cheesoid
    junk.
    
    Personally, if I were looking again (have one already) I'd probably
    consider a used Roland TR-505 or something.  Not too many frills.  You
    should be able to get one for about $100-$150.
    
    Check in COMMUSIC for discussions on many drum machines, Mike.
    
    Greg

    
    	I have a DR-550 and it is quite the machine.  Pretty easy to set up
    a collection of preset measures and it sounds great thru one of my
    practice amps.  You can also back up your programs to cassette tape.
    Charlie Bennett has one too.  
    
    -pat

	I paid $220 new at Ted Herbert's in Manchester, NH after getting
	them into a bidding war with Daddy's. There's been some discussion
	on USENET about machines as well. Get a look at the August issue
	of Electronic Musician. They review 8-10 different machines.


	A word of warning about the DR - the sounds are great, it's
	straightforward to program but MIDI IN ONLY. This means no sysex
	for saving your data to a floppy and no using the DR550 as a
	controller. It also lacks the ability to reset the song pointer
	via MIDI so it is impossible to use it for MIDI-controlled punch
	edits. They do provide tape jacks for backups.

	The documentation was excellent.

    Looks like I'm getting into yet another area I know little about.  What
    are the absolute essentials/features that you look for when buying a
    drum machine?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    What I look for in a drum machine:
    
    	o Good cymbals - most machines FAIL this test
    
    	o A good step editing mode - although I mainly use my drum
    	  machine as an SGU these days
    
    	o The ability to access ALL builtin sounds at any given moment.
    	  Most units fail this test too.
    
    	o The ability to "tune" the drums
    
    	o Pads that seem to respond the way I want/expected them too
    
    	o I'm a "believer" in the new Roland R series feature called	
          "Human Feel"
    
    My current machine is an Alesis HR-16.  There are various other/newer
    machines that have features I crave, but I just like the HR-16's sounds
    more than anything else I've heard - particularly the cymbals.

    1. Sampled sounds. Some synth'd sounds are good, but I think samples
    are better. 16 bits minumum. (Probably have a hard time finding
    anything else)
    
    2. LOOOOOOOOOOONG samples. Avoid chocked crash cymbals.
    
    3. Tunable samples.
    
    4. LOTSA samples!!!
    
    5. Each sample DIRECTLY addressable via MIDI. Some machines (HR16)
       only allow you access to a user-definable subset. Dumb. You can 
       change which ones you can access, but why put up with that?
    
    6. Lotsa memory. Not only for samples, but lotsa places to save
       patterns and songs.
    
    7. Velocity sensitivity. Watch this one. You want to hear the timbre
       change at high velocities, not just an increase in volume. Listen
       for the pitch bend in the toms (high to low) as you whack it hard.
    
    8. User definable pattern lengths. Also watch which meters you can 
       support. My HR16 won't play Brubeck's "Unsquare Dance" (7/8) except
       by cheating at 2X tempo...
    
    9. Multiple outputs. All machines have at least 1 stereo pair, but 
       assignable outputs are a godsend when it's time to add FX.
    
    10. High note resolution. If the smallest note you can play is 1/32
        you're destined to live in robo-drummer-land. If you can kill
        quantization completely you'll sound more human.
    
    11. 1/4 and 1/2 closed hi-hat samples. Where would rock be without 'em?
    
    12. Response to Song Position Pointer. Essential if you're using an 
        external sequencer.
    
    13. User assignable MIDI note numbers. For compatability with those who
        don't have this feature.
    
    14. Personally, I could live without lotsa ROM patterns, preferring to
        roll my own. Reinventing the wheel for a standard 4/4 rock pattern
        is no big deal, and I'd rather have more available RAM.
    
    
    Edd

    Mike,
    
    You haven't mentioned your application.  That's the #1 consideration.
    If all you want is a practice partner and do some home demos, a TR-505
    for under $100 is fine.  If you need better sound/more features for pro
    applications, then you start looking at the stuff mentioned in the two
    prior replies.  
    
    For instance, who cares what the MIDI features are like if you never
    hook it up to any other MIDI gear?  There are other mundane things to
    consider:
    
    Is the AC supply included?  On some cheaper machines, it isn't!
    
    Can you save off the patterns and songs you've recorded for archiving
    and freeing up memory?  Tape is cheapest, but some machines have no
    tape interface!  Of course, you could buy a $1000 PC to let you store
    the data to disk...
    
    If using it alone, can you start and stop the thing with a footswitch?
    
    How easy is the programming interface to use?  I always found the old
    Roland "grid" as used on the TR-505, TR-707, DR-110, etc. very
    intuitive and sinmple to work with.  Typically, the more features you
    have, the worse the programming gets.
    
    If using it for taping, what does it sound like on tape?  
    
    How much does it cost?  Five year old "state of the art" drum machines
    often sell for next to nothing.  I saw a $1000 list Sequential Circuits
    Drumtraks a few weeks ago for $49.  This box would fail Edd and db's
    tests but then anything under $500 is going to fail the tests anyway!
    Notice they both have the Alesis HR-16 but gripe about it...8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

    The main application would be for producing quality demos, but it would
    be used for practice as well.  MIDI isn't really important to me right
    now, though it might be a luxury for a multitrack recorder with MIDI.
    
    I see a lot of Alesis HR-16(B) units in the local papers in the
    $170-$250 range.  The Boss DR-550 can be had new for that price.  How
    do they compare?  
    
    Re: Roland R series
    
    The cheapest used R-5 I've seen is $400, but I think that's more than
    what I want to spend.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    re: HR-16 vs DR-550
    
    The HR-16 is a vastly superior unit.  The DR-550 is a toy in
    comparison. (IMHO, naturally)  
    
    Greg

    Another plug for the R5.  You wanna make demos ??  This is you budget
    machine.  If you spend the time with the step editor, you can make them 
    human beyond beleif.  As referenced earlier, the "human" part of the
    "Human Rhythm Composer" is for REAL (IMHO).
    
    My one complaint is that there isn't a LOT of memory....Probably enough
    for most, but I back this stuff up to cassette tape, so it's kinda a
    hassle.  First thing you gotta do is sh*t can all the factory presets,
    built your favorite kit, and make up some patterns.  Again, the "feel
    patches" (official title), are really happenin'...  The nice part ?
    No mistakes.
    
    Someone we know got one for $250.  What a deal !!!
    
    jc
              

    Note, the HR16-B is a different beast than the HR16. "Better" is a
    judgement left to the user...
    
    Re: "Don't need MIDI...". It's probably a moot point, as you'd be
    hard pressed to find any unit WITHOUT it.
    
    Re: "More than I care to spend..." Drum machines definitely fall into
    the "pay me now or pay me later" category. Everyone I know, including
    myself, who started with a low-end machine quickly became dissatisfied
    and moved into the higher end machines like the HR and R-series. If
    you can wait and save a little longer you'll save the aggravation.
    
    Edd

    
    
        Like I said over at the general chat note, I got a DR-550
    yesterday.   Played with it for 30 minutes and then started to play the
    guits.  What I need is a crit against the DR-550 and the HR16-B.
    The price between the two is only about 60 bucks, I think.  So,
    if the HR16-B is better, I'll trade the DR-550 in pronto while I still
    can.
    
        With only thirty minutes play time.  I can say that this thing is
    easy as hell to run.  Cymbal crash is okay I guess - not really knowing
    any better.  No A - B comparison.   I would imagine it could sound
    better.   
    
        It only has a midi-in.  For now that is not a big deal.  I can spot
    "MIDI" 9 times out of 10 - but thats it.  I do have a great Yamaha
    YS-200 synth at home.  I can't get that thing to sequence to save my
    life, let alone the fact that I may plug the drum machine into it.
    Bottom line:  I know VMS-DCL.  Midi?  No way.   So I cannot predict
    the impact of having only midi-in on the DR-550. 
    
        Things I need in a machine.
    
        -  User friendly.
    
        -  Good sound.
    
        -  User friendly.
    
        -  Flexible.
    
        -  Fun.
    
        -  User friendly.
    
        -  Midi. (I hope, someday.)
    
         
        How 'bout telling me about your HR16-B adventures? 
    
      
        Rick.
    
    

    Rick,
    
    I'm not totally sure what a HR16-B is, but I've heard a regular HR-16
    and liked it quite a lot.  I've heard a lot of people praise the HR-16
    as being very good for the money.
    
    Seems like the DR550 was aimed at the budget/portable market, as it's
    in a small handy package (which could probably fit in a lotta guitar
    cases...).  I played with one once and thought (like you mentioned in
    the Gen. Discussion note) that the cymbol sounds were pretty poor.  I
    didn't care for some of the other sounds either.  
    
    Like you said, it's user interface seems good though...
    
    Greg
                   

    The HR16-B is an HR16 with alternate samples. Some of the samples
    are processed, more electro drums, etc. It's a good compliment to the
    HR16. If I had to take one or the other I'd take the HR16.
    
    Alesis's samples are quite good. Their QC leaves something to be
    desired. Expect failures.
    
    Used HR16s are worth about $200. Worth every penny.
    
    Edd

Y'all can coerrect me if I'm wrong, but I think the HR16 and HR16B are
basically the same unit with different sounds.  I think both are great units,
especially given the price the the ALESIS units are going for now.

When I looked into drum machines, the HR16 and the Roland R5 were the two I 
liked, but the ALESIS machine was the same price as the R5 so I picked the
R5 for it's "feel patches".

jc

More on MIDI...

Again, I'm no expert of MIDI (other than patch changes etc...), but I 
beleive if your so inclined you can use the MIDI IN (and thru and out)
with Synths to send (for instance), MIDI notes to trigger your drum machine,
in essence, using the drum machine as an SGU and just input the data from
your keyboard.  But thats COMMUSIC stuff.

Seems like a real use for us would be the use of SMPTE and other timing
protocols to run with your 4 track and such.  I've often dreamed of having 
a PC with a MIDI card, and using a PC driven sequencer to sync my 4 track,
drum machine, and MIDI patch change info from a sync track on my 4 track.

And I also dream about having a synth with a sequencer to do the same kinds
of things but with the ability to kick in some key-work too...

Ahhh, the money though...

jc

RE: .22

Whooopsss...  Notes collision.

Yeah, what he said. 

:)

    
    
    
       Update.  
    
       It is not a HR16, or a HR16-B.  Which are the same machines, but
    different samples.
    
       I am looking fo a comparison between a...
    
    
       DR-550 and a SR-16.     Sorry for the mix up.
    
    
       Rick.
    

    Go for the SR. It just simply sounds better...
    
    Edd

    
    
    
       Well after a weekend of thrashing - I can say that I love that
    DR550.   I do not actively look for people to play with. I know I 
    should.   I'd learn more and I know I'd have fun.  I just can't 
    bring myself to embarrass the hell out of myself with my preschool
    efforts.  
    
       But now it is a stinkin blast.  It's great to have someone to jam 
    with and they (it) won't laugh at my 3 chord - 7 hour git playing.
    
       | Did anyone see that Sunday comic strip Foxtrot?  That be me. |
       | I laughed my ass off at that one.  Deb thought I snapped.    |
       |                             8^)                              |
    
       I will go out later today to check out the SR.  But I am thrilled
    so far with the DR550.  I'll post a note on the A - B comparison.
    
       Rick.
    
      

    The DR550 is great for practising if that is all you plan on
    doing/using it for. The SR-16  cost more and sounds better but if you
    are going to use it just to practise then it's overkill. SR-16 has
    some nice features like Dynamic Articulation which give you a more
    realistic sounding drums in that a loud hit triggers a drum sound drums
    that was sampled in that range and a soft hit plays a soft sample.
    
    It has has more and different types of drums/percussion sounds than the
    DR550. 
    
    Hope that helps.
    
    Errol

    I received the new Roland User's rag on Friday and now understand why
    the mail order houses are blowing out the DR-550, R5, and R8.  Roland
    is introducing successors to all of them.  They also have new versions
    of the ME-5 foot pedal processor.
    
    Mike

    Boss DR-660:
    - 1024 sound locations, 255 instruments
    - 16 bit dynamic sounds
    - editable parameters: layer, pitch, decay, pan, nuance, assign type
    - sounds can be grouped into 32 assignable drum kits
    - 16 velocity-sensitive pads with aftertouch
    - built-in effects: reverb, delay, chorus, and flanger
    - full stereo: individual inputs, eliminates need for outboard mixers
      and processors.
    - tape recorder style controls: tempo/data alpha dials
    - real-time pattern change
    - ability to chain all 100 songs
    
    Boss DR-550 II:
    - same as the DR-550 but with more variety of sounds.
    - 91 studio quality 16 bit dynamic range sounds including jazz brushes,
      ethnic percussion and sound effects.
    - Any of the sounds can be saved into 4 pad locations
    - MIDI capability
    
    Roland R-70 Human Rhythm Composer:
    - 210 different 16 bit internal sounds
    - 32 copy sound locations
    - built-in effects: reverb, delay, flange, chorus with separate effects
      levels for each instrument.
    - tone layering for 58K combinations of sounds
    - 20 song locations
    - 100 pattern locations
    - 2,000 parts that can be stored via RAM cards or can be used as memory
      expansion to double the song, pattern, and part memories.
    - 16 velocity-aftertouch sensitive pads
    - positional pad which changes sounds & parameters in real-time
    - full stereo and MIDI
    
    Mike

Article 13820 of alt.guitar:
Newsgroups: alt.guitar
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!stanford.edu!hubcap!lbutler
From: lbutler@hubcap.clemson.edu (L Clator Butler Jr)
Subject: Damned Drummers
Message-ID: <1993Mar24.193943.23177@hubcap.clemson.edu>
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 19:39:43 GMT
Lines: 35

I have seen people talking about getting a machine and not dealing with
the ego problems.

*applauds the idea*

You may be interested in this data.

Last semester, for my Experimental Psychology class, I set up a survey
of recorded music.  The subjects listened to a tape recorded on 8-track
in which the only difference was the drumming: one tape contained live
drumming and the other contained a sequenced pattern the same as the
live track played on a drum machine.

Subjects were played the tape blindedly; i.e. they did not know if they
were listening to tape A or tape B.  Then, subjects were asked to rank
the tape on a likert scale in terms of Musical complexity, musical
precision, and musical appeal.

After this, the subjects were played the tape which they had not yet
heard and were asked to guess which was live and which was electronic.
The data not only showed no significant perceived difference between
Drummers and drum machines, but the data was so perfectly uniform (my
professor and I ran this more than once to make sure we were not
mistaken) that the results boasted NO PERCEIVED DIFFERENCE between
drummers and drum machines.

For a complete text of my APA paper, write lbutler@hubcap.clemson.edu.

Don't bother flaming me, this is just the scientific facts.

--Clator

    Another, equally "scientific" interpretation is that the live drummer
    stunk.
    
    This type of test proves more about the lack of science in psychology
    than about drummers vs. drum machines.
    
    Danny W.

    In COMMUSIC, it was conjectured that the test was bogus.  Anyone could
    have noticed that the drums didn't start for half an hour after the
    rest of the music, or heard the quote "Can I bum a beer" after the last
    song.
    
    I actually believe the results of this study.  It makes sense to me. 
    The only people I've ever heard that identified a drum machine on a
    recording were musicians (except in the case where an inferior drum
    sound source was used, or something was done intentionally in the music
    to bring it out).
    
    I'm sure the people who participated in the study were not musicians. 
    Most "average joes" couldn't tell the difference between a guitar
    samply on a synth and a real guitar, but most guitar players can tell
    immediately.
    
    There are synthetic drums on a lot of commercial recordings done over
    the last few years.  If the drum programming is done well and a quality
    sound source is used, it's *very* difficult for even the most astute
    critic to tell if it's real or not.  Witness all the discussion in the
    note about Dream Theater recently...
    
    The big thing in my mind isn't whether people *know* if a drum machine
    was used or not, but whether people *care*!  My experience would say
    that, for a recording, most people don't care, even if they can tell
    (most can't).
    
    Greg

    >The big thing in my mind isn't whether people *know* if a drum machine
    >was used or not, but whether people *care*!  My experience would say
    >that, for a recording, most people don't care, even if they can tell
    >(most can't).
    
    I don't think people care in live situations either!  The point of
    interest for most people in live performance is the singer(s) or
    soloist(s).  The rest of the band is only noticed when they aren't
    doing their job.
    
    The average joe doesn't  get bummed that 99% of what you see for
    "music" on TV (not just MTV, but all the way back to Bandstand or Ed
    Sullivan) is lip-synched.  If people will accept lip-synching, then
    they'll accept just about anything.
    
    						Rob from M.V.

>    There are synthetic drums on a lot of commercial recordings done over
>    the last few years.  If the drum programming is done well and a quality
>    sound source is used, it's *very* difficult for even the most astute
>    critic to tell if it's real or not.  Witness all the discussion in the
>    note about Dream Theater recently...
    
    As I said in that note, I think most of the discussion about "whether"
    or not they used a drum machine was not offered by "astute critics".
    
    I was almost 100% sure from the start that all the drums were played
    live but that the snare was a sampled snare triggered from the snare
    track.  That turned out to be the case.
    
    It was easy to tell because the snare sound was fairly obviously 
    homogenous no matter how hard it was played.  Actually, there's no
    technical reason for that - almost any drum brain worth its salt will
    allow you to easily blend samples according to velocity (how hard a hit
    it should be).  I'm really surprised that the producer of that album
    didn't do that.  He certainly should have known it was possible.
    
    Anyway, there's two different things:
    
    	o The drums are entered manually into sequencer instead of played
    
    	o The sounds are sampled instead of mic'd.
    
    You can use sampled sounds without using a sequencer.  In fact, I'm
    about to do my first recording that way with Citadel.  We put triggers
    on all the drums and are going to "record" the drums (the converted
    trigger signals) via MIDI into a sequencer.
    
    But the sequencer, while not recording sound, is recording the actually
    performance of our drummer Rob.
    
    I can USUALLY tell how a drum track was done.  However, I think it's
    important to note that (these days) the clues you look for are not
    TECHNICAL limitations of what's possible, but rather that there are
    certain things in the last 10 yards of getting a "realistic" sounding
    track that many recording engineers/producers just don't bother with.
    
    That's because the last 10 yards are harder than the first 90.
    
    The DT snare sound is probably an example of that (although it would've
    been easy for them to correct for that).
    
    The use of sampled sounds is usually detectable by:
    
    	o a homogenous sound that doesn't vary with velocity, 
    
    	o a sound that seems to be in a different "audio space" than the
    	  rest of the kit
    
    	o For cymbals, an obvious "loop" in the decay portion of the sample
    
    	o Toms that sound identical except for pitch (although I'd
          distinguish this one in that it doesn't make it sound "bad"
    	  or unrealistic - it's just a benign property of sampled drums.)
    
    	o A hi-hat that never seems to vary its timbre or "opennness".
    
    The use of a sequencer to enter the drum track is detectable by:
    
    	o Repeating stone-cold identical patterns (this is really the mark
    	  of amateurs, you seldom here this in any pro production.)
    
    	o Reuse of the same fill
    
    	o Absence of flams, rolls, etc.  These things are hard to do with
    	  a drum machine.  They also can't be quantized (have timing error
          correction).
    
    	o An overly quantized pattern meaning:
    
    	   - No instruments played in between 16th notes, ahead of or
             behind the beat
    	   - Every hit is exactly on the beat.  Drummers don't play like
             this, nor would it sound natural if they did.
    
    	o No variations in tempo (although this could suggest the use of
    	  a metronome click track - something I like to avoid)
    
    there are other things, but these are the main things.
    
    	db

    BTW, on the issue of whether it's somehow morally wrong to use
    sampled drums in a concert or on a recording, I think it's no
    different than using a synthesizer.
    
    The major point is that, unlike a sequencer, what you are hearing is a
    real performance by a human being.  Whether what actually generates the
    sound is an acoustic instrument, a sample of an acoustic instrument,
    or a re-synthesis of an acoustic instrument hardly seems important.
    
    Taken to the extreme, the view that samplers are "cheating" is almost
    like saying the only real instrument is the human voice - you don't
    find acoustic pianos in nature any more than you find samplers.  ;-)
    
    	db

	If people didn't come down to watch a whole band (ie, expecting
	a drummer), then the audience usually could care less if the
	drums are real or sequenced, as long as they sound ok. I have
	played out almost exclusively with a sequencer and drum machine
	(and various drum SGU's) for the last 6 years, and we've had
	no resistance. In fact, we are often complemented on our ability
	to control volume levels. The quality of drum machine/samples
	and the ability of your P.A. system to handle the high end sparkle
	of the cymbals (I feel that you really need Piezo's for this) will 
	determine how much people care.

	We filled in at the Moose lodge last night (a 2 hour going away
	party, and as a result, we are doing another party in 2 weeks).
	This was a last minute thing - I only had to ask my partner &
	we were there. More people commented on the multi-colored clowns
	wig that I wore when I played Elvis's 'Don't Be Cruel' - the
	chorus went:

		Don't Be Cruel, 'Cause My Hair Looks Cool

	(I had a lot of people singing along with this line) than the
	fact that the drums were the result of an MT-32 and D-110 driven
	by an MMT-8 sequencer.

	If people come to watch a large band play, then it's unimportant
	what your synthetic drummer does, they won't be happy (This is
	an occasional desire of clubs, however, those clubs don't tend
	to book Duo's either, so the issue is usually a moot point).

						Jens

   Playing a gig:

   There are many places on the North Shore (where I live) that will not hire
  someone UNLESS they have a live drummer! This caused some difficulty for the
  sequenced bands who all of a sudden saw the number of rooms available to 
  gig go down.

 
   Recording:

    As long as there is some drum programming that is more than a straight
   beat (some dynamics) then it's acceptable.

   
   Observation:

    It's a d#$m shame that musicians have come to replacing members with 
   machines because machines are easier to deal with.

    There's something wrong with this picture.
  

     - Bob

	RE: earlier notes on comparrisons of the DR550 and SR 16 or HR 16

	Has anyone compared the SR-16 and the DR660.  They see to be more
	similar than the previous comparison. Though I don't know prices.

	I have not played with either the SR-16 or the  DR660, only an
	HR-16.  

	Does anyone know if the SR-16 and DR660 have tape in/out to backup
	patterns and songs?  (the HR-16 did)

	Quality of cymbol samples?

	Any cymbol brushes?

	Both say 100 songs, but do they have a limit on total measures
	or can they handle 100 songs each with 128 measures or more?

	Does either have a footswitch?


	Lance

   I recently purchased a Boss (Roland) DR-5 "Dr. Rhythm Section", to use for
practicing when I wasn't rehearsing with the band.  When you're married, have
kids, and the other members of the band are in a similar situation, it's real
tough to find a common rehearsal time ...

   The DR-5 is an entire "band in a box":  it's part drum machine, part synth
and part sequencer.  Physically, it's a little larger than the DR-550/-660 drum
machines (approximately 6" x 10").  The front (really top) panel is comprised of
a multi-function display and about 40 buttons + data wheel on the top.  Most of
the buttons are dual- purpose.  For instance, 30 of the buttons are arranged to
kind of represent the first five fretted notes on a guitar on all strings. 
However, all of these buttons are used for another purpose depending on the mode
you're in.

   The unit contains 200 preset "patterns", and room for 200 user-defined
patterns.  A pattern is made up of four tracks programmed to play drums, bass
and rhythm tracks.  The drums play something, in some time signature, along with
bass and rhythm lines.   Track 1 is reserved for drums.  The remaining tracks
can be used for anything, though typically you'll find that the preset patterns
are set up like this:

        Track 1:  Drums (always)
        Track 2:  Rhythm instrument (guitar, piano, synth, brass)
        Track 3:  Bass (*many* types to choose from)
        Track 4:  Additional rhythm or lead instrument

   You create songs by stringing together one or more patterns, setting up
loop points with repeat bars, etc.  Hit play and you have an instant rhythm
section!

Programming Patterns
====================

   Creating songs from preset patterns is pretty easy, once you figure out how
to do it (the manual is pretty awful).  Creating new patterns is more difficult.

   To create a new pattern, you first pick a kit.  A kit defines the percussion
instruments that can be used on Track 1,  PLUS each instrument that can used on
each of the remaining tracks (Tracks 2-4).    There are 32 preset kits and room
for 16 user-defined kits.

   For each kit, there are 30 percussion sounds (out of a total of 64) that may
be used.  That is, for each kit, there is a drum kit of 30 pieces.

Kit examples:   Kit #25, "Blues1"
                =================
                Drum track:  Drum kit of 30 percussion sounds
                Track 1:     Piano1
                Track 2:     Finger Bass 1
                Track 3:     Harmonica

                Kit #37, "Reggae"
                =================
                Drum track:  Drum kit of 30 percussion sounds
                Track 1:     Steel Drum
                Track 2:     Finger Bass
                Track 3:     Clean Guitar

Next, you program each measure within the context of the kit you selected.  So,
first you might program the drum track.  Then you switch to Track 2 and program
a bass line.  Next, perhaps you would switch to track 1 and program a rhythm
part.  And, if you wanted, perhaps you'd program a melody line on Track 3.  

I won't go into detail about how you enter drum sequences, or add the bass and 
rhythm parts, but it's pretty awful using the front-panel interface ...

Once a pattern has been created, any track can be muted during play.  For
instance, you might only want to hear the drums and bass, while playing rhythm.
Or maybe you want to practice soloing.  Mute the appropriate tracks and voila!

The display is pretty slick.  You're presented with both a guitar fretboard and
a piano keyboad (one octave).  The keypad layout is like a guitar fretboard, so
you can enter chords or single notes through the keypad and it'll appear in the
guitar and keyboard "tab" display simulatneously.  Or, you can connect your
guitar to the unit and it will figure out what note you're playing (!) and put
it on the fretboard for you.  In fact, you can play a note on your guitar and it
will play the equivalent note corresponding to the instrument that's active on
the track, in the kit you have selected.  That is, I can play, say, an E, and
out comes a steel drum E note!  Almost like a guitar synth!  The differences are
that there's a noticable delay between the time to pluck a note and the sound is
heard ... .

Other neat things:  It has built-in guitar tuner (probably part of the analog-
to-digital pitch conversion needed for entering notes via your guitar), click
track for real-time entry (vs. step entry), stereo outputs (you can assign an
instrument to the left channel, right channel, center or something like 15
areas in between left/right), and MIDI in/out[/thru?].

----------

Now then, after saying all that, what do I think of it?  It's a great sounding
unit.  The percussion and bass instruments are great!  The piano and synth stuff
is pretty good.  The clean guitar sounds are real nice.  The distorted guitar
sounds are fair-to-good.  So, not all the sampled instruments sound perfectly
real, but when you need a rhythm section to back up some solo practice, you're
not likely to notice that the brass samples don't sound like a $2000 synth.

It's quite versatile.  BUT, it's a real pain to program patterns.  And the
manual that accompanies the unit is awful.  I've spent hours trying to figure
out how to do simple procedures that are omitted from the manual. In fact, I
became frustrated to the point of calling Roland customer support in California
and asking them if there was any supplementary programming material. Apparently
there is, but it's a month or so away from publication.  Sigh.

These units have a list price of $499 and commonly sell at the discount
mail-order places for a lot less (get some of the mail-order places competing
with each other).

            Andre'

    REP .41
    
    Andre'
    
    Thanks for the DR-5 description. A friend of mine recently purchased
    one and has been composing/recording some pretty good Zappa'esque
    type stuff. My roomate is considering buying one, but has some
    questions about time signatures available. He wants to be able to do
    odd times and also be able to change time within a sequence(either in 
    real-time for programmed). As you stated, the manual is rather thin and 
    does'nt cover the aforementioned scenario. Any input from you or any
    other DR-5'ers would be grately appreciated. It seems like a great
    little box for rehearsing and/or composing and I may end up with one
    myself.
    
    Thanks
    CERASO

    
    Maybe this is a can of worms, but here goes: 
    
    Has anyone tryed the Lexicon Jamman?  How difficult is
    it to use it to sample a guitar pattern and synch the
    repeated pattern to a drum machine?  Do you need a 
    computer to coordinate the two parts? 
    
    Dave