Conference napalm::guitar

    I'm glad you included that last paragraph in your note. All the bands
    I've played in over the last several years have done lots of
    improvising, and not one has been a jazz band. From wierd rock, to free
    music (sometimes called free jazz, probably a misnomer, often called
    "noise", probably closer to the truth 8^)), to "new wave", to
    minimalist_electronic_instrumental music. 
    
    Some of these groups improvised extensively instead of playing songs,
    but more often (and probably my preferred method) we improvised as a
    way to write material. Some of my favorite original compositions came
    from jamming on an idea and using the best parts to arrange more formal
    tunes. 
    
    I agree that you need some music theory. Even in rock music you
    use scales or riffs as a base. But the best is when you can get
    beyond that and play what you "hear".
    
    Rob 
                                             

    Not only what you "hear", but what you feel...
    I play bass and some keys,and I listen alot to what the other musicians
    are doing,I can hear it,but if it doesn't give me the right feel,and
    I try to improvise...I go off left of center,and lose the whole
    thing...It has alot to do with my inexperience. but never the less
    I have to feel it before I can do anything with it.
    

    
    
    The thing that gets me is transitions from chord to chord....
    
    For instance if you are playing 12-bar blues in E, if you stick
    to the E blues scale you can play over all three chords (E, A, B7)
    and have it fit, because the scale contains E, G, A, B, D and E
    which can be superimposed on all of the chords and get harmonious
    results.
    
    Now, go to a tune like Satin Doll.....here we have a lot of chords
    some of which last only one beat...I find problems getting from
    measure to measure without hitting clinkers or just throttling the
    roots and fifths to death (not too melodic, huh?).
    
    The idea, I guess, is to find scales which are common to the chords
    at least for a bar or so, and stick with those.....OK, so I sit
    dwon and work out the scales applicable to each chord, then string
    them together in such a way that I can get from one to the other,
    then it sounds like......I'm playing scales.
    
    On the other hand, it's easy to see why modal playing like Coltrane
    or much New Age stuff is so attractive, you can just whiz around
    the mode you've defined for the tonal center of the tune all day
    long and not worry about any chord clashes.  Not suprisingly, tapes
    of my better improvs sound more like George Winston territory than
    Duke Ellington.
    
    I'm still working to get past this obstacle so I can find the *next*
    obstacle in the development of my playing  8^)
    
    Comments????
                
    Second problem:  Voicing
    Or, as you solo, how do you keep from stepping all over the piano,
    bass, guitar, horn, etc. and create stacked chords without serious
    dissonances?
    

    I've experienced the same problems. It's easy to improvise in a
    modal base, which the what most "free form" turns into. But improvising
    a consistent melody over harmonic changes has always been difficult
    for me. The one thing that I have found which works reasonably well
    is to simplify the underlying progressions. That is, instead of
    following all the changes, find shorter scales, like pentatonics,
    which will work through a sequence of chords. That way you can get
    through a whole song with just a few scales, and all you need to
    remember is when and how to transition from one into the other.
    I find it's a lot easy to loosen up this way (not that I'm any great
    jazz guitarist).
    
    As far as stacked chords go, I have a hard time believing that anybody
    really pays much attention to this when improvising. It probably
    does produce some strange dissonance, but after all, who's to know?
    I've seen some supposedly great jazz musicians play, and it sure
    didn't look like they were real worried about not doing anything
    strange.
    
    - Ram

    re .-1
    
    To add variety to the transitions you mention consider the 
    following.
     THE cliche chord progression in jazz is the II-V7-I.  If you
    are playing in, say, Ab and decide a little modulatin' would
    be nice try going to a related minor via the II-V7-I route.
     An example to show what I mean...
    
    As above, assume we're playing in Ab.  Move to Bb-7 (II) then to
    Eb7 and then to Abmaj7 ( I assume since this is jazz that we're
    using the maj7 in place of the plain major as the I chord ).
    
    It's a little trickier in a minor since the the II is really a
    minor 7th flat5 and the V7 is a 7th flat9 but the "move is the
    same.
    
    This kind of stuff is what I meant in the base note about some
    basic theoretical knowledge being useful.  If I could only get
    to the point where my ear could use all this stuff on demand!!
    Oh well, back to practice, practice, practice.
    
    						Regards
    						Doug D...
    

    Oops!  Forgot to mention... about "voicings" of stacked
    chords..  One simple technique when playing with a keyboard
    (piano esp) is to play 3 or 4 ( at most ) note chords.
    If the piano is playing a fairly "heavy" bass accompaniment
    for the melody, stay on the "high" side and accent the 
    melody. Or vice versa.
    
    Arranging instrumental pieces for good balance and voice
    leading is tough and technically challenging.  A good grounding
    in harmony ( Walter Piston's "Harmony" is the classic text )
    can help.  But, your ear is always the best judge.
    
    Ps... try listening to simple arrangements of stuff you like
    and see if you can figure out what they're doing that makes the
    instruments "blend" well.  I've found this useful, but I'm no
    great expert on arranging.
    
    						Doug D....
    

    Along the same vein as playing through complex changes is playing
    'outside' over changes. By outside, I mean using tones outside
    the diatonic harmony of the chords you are playing over. This
    creates tension or dissonance which can lead your improvisation
    in an entirely new and totally unexpected direction. An example
    of this was in a GP issue where Larry Coryell was discussing the
    use of the jazz minor scale. He showed an example where he took
    a II-V-I progression, substituted the bII for the V, then played
    the jazz minor scale for the bVI over the bII chord. It sounded,
    uh, different. I guess all that comes down to knowing your theory
    so well those things come without thinking.
    
    I think another aspect of improvisation is to play WITH PEOPLE.
    Playing scales by yourself is only so useful. When it's time to
    solo with an ensemble, playing wicked fast scales won't cut it.
    Especially in jazz. You have to develop a sense of phrasing; little
    pauses and bends and slurs that add a human touch to your playing.
    Otherwise you might as well be a sequencer or Yngwie Malmsteen ;-)
    This comes only with time and enough experience. 
    
    -Dave

	I would recomend also looking at or for Vincent Persechetti's"20th
Century Harmony" for scales,harmony etc. I may not have spelled his name
right so you may want to go by title if you go to the library.
	Listening and ear training is a big help to soloing,on guitar a 
major thing to listen to is phrasing. The difference between Pat Metheny
and Wes Mongomery for a jazz example. Or Jeff Beck to Stevie Ray Vaughan
for Rock/Blues. Actual tertial harmony of playing tensions in triads is scale
dependant,and in order to accomplish this you need to have a "working" set
of triad patterns and understand the possible extensions from modal harmony.	
    	Lot's of practice,listening and reading will help you get to
    this point.
    

     
    Relative to my earlier question about stacked chords.....
                                                
    I should have mentioned that I am a bassist, so working with the
    piano and rhythm guitar becomes crucial to prevent dissonance...
    
    I do not have the option of playing in a higher register to make
    say a major 2nd sound like a 9th...
    
    Any other bassists got an answer to this one?
    
    

    I am also a bassist (have been), and I repeat that I can't really
    believe that anybody who is *improvising* pays much attention to
    voicing. We have received a lot of advice on *arranging*, which has
    nothing to do with *improvising*. How can you possibly listen to
    several other players, analyze what they are playing, relate it to what
    you are playing, anticipate what they are going to do next, work out a
    non-dissonant voicing, and then execute it, all in real-time? If you
    know of anyone who can do this at speeds greater than one note a
    second, all I can say is "AWESOME".
    
    - Ram 

    Good idea to create this topic.
    Could it be the right place to show chords progressions,ideas,examples
    that could be good support for improvizing?
    Another suggestion:
    Given a chord progression,one could suggest scales or chords variations
    etc.
    
    Gerard from VLO,France
    

In this months Guitar Player there is mention of Frank Gambale in an article
    on speed picking. There is a book out by Frank which is dedicated
    to improvization ,it comes with a tape. It is called the Frank Gambale
    Technique Book !. Well recomended for all levels.
    
    			Joe

    re .10  Then get set to say "awesome" because ALL the 
    good jazz players I know do this... perhaps not in the
    detail described and perhaps not neatly verbalized but
    at least at the start of any tune.  
    
    I agree that the discussion so far has been centered on
    arranging rather than the actual execution of improvisation.
    But, the foundation of tasteful, appropriate improvisation
    rests on an understanding of "what goes with what".  This
    could be called arranging.  I think of it as having the 
    necessary tools at hand to get the job done.  If you're
    playing 12 bar blues.. let's say in D-.. and want to play
    something other than the pentatonic subset of the Dorian
    minor scale ( i.e. the "blues" scale ) you've got a couple
    of choices: experiment ahead of time and find something that
    sounds good ( sort of developing some "licks" of your own ),
    "borrow" some licks from someone you've heard, or "compose"
    some licks on the spot.  This last is what all the great
    improvisors have done.  And it ain't easy.  I still sound like
    I'm playing scales when I improvise. But, I'm getting better.
    And without some "arranging" ( in this case looking at the
    tune, its key, its modulations, etc  and picking a few possible
    chords and scales NOT in the arrangement in front of me ) I'd
    have NO tools to TRY to make music instead of scale exercises
    happen.
    
    By all means let's talk about techniques for improvising.  That
    is well within the purpose of this note.  I just think that
    knowing the structure of what you're going to improvise over 
    makes it easier.
    
    RSVP
    Doug D....
    

    I've recently been trying to learn some applications of diminished
    chords and scales. For those who don't know, a diminished scale
    goes (half step - whole step) or (whole step - half step) repeated
    4 times per octave. The second form has the following notes:
    
    1 2 -3 4  -5 +5 6 7
    
    and seems to be used quite a bit by heavy metal players, along with
    byzantine and harmonic minor scales, which it is quite similar to.
    
    I've been playing more with the first form recently as it fits over
    various chord progressions. The notes in this scale are
    
    1 -2 -3 3 +4 5 6 -7
    
    note that out of this we can make a 7b9 chord. These 7b9 chords
    have the same notes as the diminished chord a half-step above.
    Thus, E7b9 is the same as Fdim. 
    
    We can move these 7b9 chords up and down in minor thirds and they
    will be the same chord, just a different inversion. In fact, a
    neat sounding trick is to play the 7b9 chord over a bar of a
    'normal' seventh chord, moving up a minor third each beat.
    
    Now, there are lots of neat things that come out of playing diminished
    things against a cycle of fifths chord progression. We can substitute
    a IV7b9 chord for the IV7 chord. This IV7b9 has the same spelling
    as the II7b9, the #V7b9, and the VII7b9. Take the VII7b9, for example.
    Repeatedly using this substition means that we can replace a cycle
    of fifths progression of 7th chords with a chromatically descending
    porgression of 7b9 chords! The same holds true for playing leads.
    I've been trying to play chromatically descending diminished scales
    over cycle of fifth 7th chord progressions just to see what sounds
    good. 
    The diminished scale is hard for my ears to get used to. So far
    a lot of what comes out of my playing sounds 'synthetic'. But it
    certainly is different!
    
    -Dave

    
    The best way I've found to use diminished concepts in a rock format
    is to analize the diminish chord as the leading chord to the 1 minor
    (or 6 minor as analized from the major scale) chord in a relative (or
    Harmonic) minor scale. So, if you were playing in Am, you'd play G#
    Dim. concepts. This will work real well as a leading chord to the 1 minor
    or played over the 5 chord of the 1 minor (example - E major).
    
    You could also use them as individual passing chords between the
    regular diatonic chords. (Ex - C, C# dim, Dm, D# dim, Em)
    
    FYI - the chord scale for Harmonic minor is:-
    
    I-, IIdim, III+, IVm, V, VI, VIIdim
    
    Also, you can use all sorts of different approaches to the constant
    structure diminished arpeggios. One is trilling notes a half step
    above each diminished chord tone, thus envoking the scale!
    
    have fun...
    
    wjb

    RE .14
    
    How about an example on the cycle in the key of C.
    
    		Thanks
    			JR

    An example in the key of C ...
    
    Suppose you wanted to play some diminished stuff over a
    
    C-A7-D7-G7 progression.
    
    First, substitute 7b9 chords for all those chords ...
    
    C7b9-A7b9-D7b9-G7b9
    
    Now, C7b9 is the same chord as A7b9, so you can play around the
    C#dim arpeggio over these 2 chords (or move up and down 3 half
    steps at a time and do the same thing). Let's stay at the C#
    for simplicity. When the progression goes to D7b9, we move down
    a half step and play around the Cdim arpeggio. The theory is that
    Cdim=B7b9=D7b9. When we go to G7b9, we again move down a half-step
    and play against the Bdim arpeggio. Coing back to C after the G7
    chord, we could then go down another half step and wind up playing
    around Bbdim=C#dim=C7b9.
    It helps to tape these progressions (slowly) and play with the
    tape or to jam with a friend who also wants to learn this stuff.
    I try to play along with tapes when I have the time.
    
    -Dave

    I don't get it:
    
> C7b9 is the same chord as A7b9
    
    In my book:
    
    	C7b9  =  C E G Bb Db
    
    	A7b9  =  A C# E G Bb

    The tonics of both chords do not exist in other chord.
    
    I look at the 7b9 chord as being a diminished seventh built over
    the tonic.  Diminished 7th chords have the property that when you
    transpose all the notes up a minor third, you get the same chord.
    Or you could look at it as transposing by a minor third is the same
    as inverting the chord.
    
    In your example there is a Edim7 or Gdim7 or Bbdim7 or C#cim7 (pick 
    one cause they're all the same) in the first two chords and that's 
    why the C# dim arpeggio works over both chords.

    	db

    re .18:
    
    It's usually the case with a 7b9 (or any 9th chord) to leave out
    the root tone. Do this and the chords become the same.
    
    -Dave

    
    Way back in .3 (and a long time ago), modal soloing
    was mentioned.  Would someone be so kind as to enter 
    a brief explaination of what that is?
                         
    One technique that I learned for soloing was to approach
    a note in the chord from either a half step below the
    note or one scale tone above.  It's not too difficult 
    and sounds kind of neat.  Is that soloing in a modal
    fashion?
    
    frank
    

    "Modal" soloing refers to the predominant use of a single mode over a
    sequence of chord changes. A "mode" is a musical term referring to a
    collection of notes in an octave. Modes were precursers to what we now
    call scales, but since Western music uses predominantly the major scale
    and some variations on minor scales, modes provide for greater tonal
    variety. The classical modal combinations can be found by using each of
    the notes of a major scale as the base note for a mode. For example,
    using the C major scale: 
    
    	C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C
    
    you can create the following modes:
    
    	D    E    F    G    A    B    C    D

    	E    F    G    A    B    C    D    E

    	F    G    A    B    C    D    E    F

    	G    A    B    C    D    E    F    G

    	A    B    C    D    E    F    G    A

    	B    C    D    E    F    G    A    B

    Each of these modes has a name, such as Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian,
    Phrygian (must be said carefully), etc. It is also possible to form
    other modes by using more or less notes. For example, blues soloing is
    based on a pentatonic mode (five notes). In this case, given a song in
    the key of A, the harmonic progression is based on the A scale: 
    
    	A    B    C#   D    E    F#   G#   A
    
    The soloist, however, will use the following pentatonic mode:
    
    	A    C    D    E    G    A

    This dissonance between the harmonic base and the melody creates
    the classic blues sound.
    
    It is very common in jazz, particularly in "progressive jazz",
    "jazz-rock", or "fusion", to improvise in a mode over a sequence
    of chord changes. The possibile combinations of modes and chords
    is almost limitless, and allows for a great deal of creativity (it
    can also get very boring). As an example, listen to the song "Devotion"
    off of the early John McLaughlin album of the same name (I think).
    The song continuously repeats the chords A major and B major over
    an A root. The melodic parts are based on a mode built from a
    combination of the two chords:
    
    	A    B    C#   D#   E    F#   G#   A
    
    At least that's the way I remember it. I haven't heard it for many
    years.
    
    Modes are similar to what in Indian music is called a raga, but
    raga is a much more complex and highly developed concept. Not worth
    getting into here.

    - Ram

    
    Hmmm, the scale built off of those two chords (A & B):
    
       A    B   C#   D#   E   F#  G#   A
    
    Looks like A Lydian to me.
    
    I like to think of the modes in terms of numeric analization:
    
    Ionian - no sharps or flats
    
    Dorian - b3, b7
    
    Phrygian - b2, b3, b6, b7
    
    Lydian - #4
    
    Mixolydian - b7
    
    Aeolian - b3, b6, b7
    
    Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7
    
    I think this way makes it easier when moving keys quickly, etc.
    You don't have to think `where' (major scale) the mode is coming
    from.
    
    Also, in Ram's case of using pentatonic scales over a major
    progression, that is a funny case. I like to use major pentatonic 
    scales, 1 - 2 - (b3) 3, 5, 6 over a major progression rather than
    superimposing a minor pentatonic scale, 1 - b3 - 4 - (b5) 5, b7
    over a major progression. (or rather use the minor pentatonic as
    analyzed as `aeolian mode' in the key)
    
    I like to use Lydian for a major progressions, Mixolydian for blues
    & modulations, Lydian b7 for secondary dominants, Dorian for minor
    things. Also, try mixing the minor pentatonic scales with the Dorian
    and Aeolian modes...way cool.
    
    Also neat for minor progressions is Harmonic minor with a b5 & b7 added:
    
    1, 2, b3, 4, b5, 5, b6, b7, 7, 8 
    
    it's like egyptian blues scales!
    
    wjb
    

RE: .21 and .22

  Thanks Ram and WJB for your notes on modes.  I am familiar
  with modes but for some reason did not make the connection
  between them and the statements about playing modally.

  I can see that what I referred to before is clearly not 
  using modes for determining what notes to play over a given
  chord or chord progression.  It involves simply knowing the 
  tones that make up the chord being played, and selecting
  notes around those (1/2 step below, scale tone above), as well
  as the chord tones, as the ones to be used while soloing.


frank
  

    
    I know it looks like this topic is dead but what the heck you are
    all up to date with the conference and all open it with next unseen
    don't you??? :-)
    
    	So does anybody want to tell me what the major flaw with the
    way I play is??? (please!) I haven't been playing that long and
    I know I am not very good, I have been learning scales etc. but
    I don't *seem* to use them......I tend to work two ways. I have
    the melody/harmony in my head and I just guess where I have to put
    my fingers.....of course sometimes...(but its slowly getting less)
    I get it wrong.....but If I am quick enough to work out its wrong
    I can either bend it till it sounds right or do a quick slide
    to another note...which is my other way of working.....this
    is less usefull but I find I can work out some neat stuff using
    this. Put on some music that you like and find 1 note that fits
    I have discovered that the note either 1,2 or 3 frets away (up or
    down) will fit (unles you have put some on that changes key every
    bar or something) so now you have 2 notes you can play, I just use
    the rule until I have a 'map' of available notes I can play across
    the whole fretboard, then rewind the tape and have some fun?
    
    	Any comments/criticisms/hints anything???
    
    J 
   	 
   

A good way to get started soloing is to learn some rote patterns, which is what
you are probably doing the hard way...

The type of music you play will determine to some degree the types of patterns 
you may want to concentrate on.  For blues/rock based soloing, I'd recommend 
learning some minor pentatonics, which (in Amin) go like so:

A,C,D,E,G

A common pattern for an Amin pentatonic would be (with the bass E string on 
the left):


          | | | | | |
          x x x x x x  5th fret
          | | | | | |
          | x x x | |
          x | | | x x 
          | | | | | |

This shape is moveable.  If you move it up 2 frets, you're automatically playing
a Bmin pentatonic.  There are many different ways to play any scale, and there
are other pentatonic shapes that lend themselves to different aspects of your
playing.  Experiment.  But first, learn a few of these types of patters and
just go for it!  

Couple of rote formulas for minor pentatonics:

1. Use Root + 1 whole step:		example: in Cmaj play Dmin pentatonic
2. Use Root - min 3rd:			example: in Cmaj play Amin pentatonic
3. Use Root + maj 3rd:			example: in Cmaj play Emin pentatonic

Which one of these three possiblities is the best depends on the actual chord
progression, what you're trying to say, and most of all, how they sound to you.
Hooking all three up during a solo can work pretty well...

There are many, many different patterns like this.  And you can tie them 
together any way you want.

Now for the word of caution:  Patters are good for memorization and for getting
you started.  I believe that's their limit.  Eventually, you want a thorough
understanding of where all the notes are for any given key and for any type
of scale you wish to use.  If you think in patterns, you'll play in patterns,
and anyone familiar with them knows exactly what you're going to do next. 

One way to break out of standard patterns (like the pentatonic shape given in 
this example) is to play them everywhere.  For example, play A min pentatonic
starting on the 6th string 3rd fret; 6th string 1st fret, 4th string 12 fret,
etc. - changing starting strings and frets.  Also, don't *always* start at the
lowest sounding note and play up... switch it around.. *Eventually*, you'll 
start to realize what all the notes are in Amin pentatonic; where they are, 
and you'll be able to play them without jumping down to the box on the 5th fret.
Now all you have to do is do that same thing for every other pattern you want
to use (lots of work).

But for getting started, patterns are great.  I'd start with Maj/Min pentatonic
and blues scales, maj scale, harmonic minor scale, then begin working on the
modes of the major scale.  Buck posted some major scale patterns which get you
into most of the modes... I think he called them the Berklee six-pack; maybe
someone can post a pointer to that note.. (probably in the what's new in
chord/scale land note).

Enjoy!
steve

I think Steve gave you a nice start there.  I'll add this:  Practice, practice,
practice.............ad infinitum

One other thing I find fun and helpful:  If you've got a tape player in your
car, play music you'd like to solo to and just sing solos to it as you drive
along.  That'll help you get used to improvising with an instrument that you
already know.  Then you just take the music from one instrument to the other
(the guitar).  Also, I think it can help you to not just "think with your
fingers", but to think about music instead.

If you listen to someone like Ella Fitzgerald, you'll see how far singing solos
(scatting) can be taken.

And like Steve said, "Enjoy!"

Will

    
    The way I learnt to solo and improvise, was to put on a record or 
    video I liked - something a bit uptempo. Identify the key (easy enough) 
    and just noodle along to it. Start off by getting some patterns or 
    positions together, and just play with different variations on using
    them. try and get little patterns all over the neck. Then, work out
    what little patterns there are between the previously established. Be
    creative - don't play a lick and always resolve to the predictable root
    note - try other combinations such as the fourth, fifth and sixth etc..
    Play around with runs that use octaves, slides and bends and stuff. 
    
    This may seem drawn out but it is EASY!! I am terrible at sitting and
    learning stuff, but I found this was a great way to learn scales, and
    improvising technique.
    
    -Tony

    
    Hear, hear....I'll second -1.....it is the way I am learning and it is
    lots of fun......just don't get hung up about it when you hit a bum 
    note........the guys (tape/video) that you are jamming along with don't
    care!!!!!! Just rewind and have another go!
    
    J

    
    Now at LGI, I'm having to learn the way of 5 set shapes within a chord
    position and I don't like this method. It much rather learn all my major
    and minor scales in my own way (-2), and then sit and figure out the
    intervals so that I can play modes (ie, so I know where the seventh
    is, so I can flatten it and play Mixolydian etc..).
    
    -Tony

re -.1  

Both methods have uses.  One advantage of learning different patterns
that you may not have considered is that you improve your picking technique.
The different patterns you're learning force you to pick in unique ways.  This
can only help.  As for learning modes, etc.  I agree; ultimately you want to
"know" where all the notes are for whatever scale you want to use.  But to do
that, don't you essentially have to be able to play any scale from anywhere on
the neck, and the notes you end up fretting form patterns, right?

steve