Conference napalm::guitar

    hey dave,
    
    Personally, I'd rule out the analog delay right off. Basically what
    sound you're putting into an analog delay you won't get out fer
    sure. besides, they only have delay times of 30-300ms on the average
    (which stinks). Digital delay is the way to go. the sound is alot
    'truer' to teh original source you usually have control over input
    and output levels, and most have a modulation section built in for
    doubling/chorusing/flanging effects. Also to be taken into account
    is the longer the delay time the more bandwidth you're going to
    lose. Also check a units freq response. The Roland SDE1000 is ok,
    but its only has a freq response up to like 11K, which drops to
    8K when using longer delay times. i wouldn't buy a delay that has
    a freq response less than 15K (my opinion). The Roland SDE3000 is
    a good unit: freq resp. up to 17K and up to 4 sec delay with 8 presets
    and you can preset the modulation section. ADA also makes a few
    good delays. The Effectron series is ok on the smaller delay times
    but the sound goes real quick in the longer modes.
    
    Basically, with a good delay you should be able to do such a wide
    aray of effects you really don't need anything other than a good
    amp.
    
    B

    See note 249 for information on the ALesis MidiverbII. This unit
    is mainly a digital reverb, but also has, reverse reverb, gated
    reverb (which is not too useful for guitar), flange, chorusing,
    delay upto 460ms, and 10 special effects. This unit is a tradeoff
    in that all of the effects are preset, with no user programmable
    delay parameters, however, It offers 99 different sounds, excellant
    sound quality due to 16 bit processing, and frequency response of
    15khz effect, 20khz dry. Another selling point is the price (list
    price of 399). I think you will find that most digital delays
    are around 500 dollars or more, and do not have reverb. You should
    definately demo this unit before buying anything. If you are in
    the central mass area, check it out at Union Music, in Worcester.
    
    						Mark Jacques
    						LM02/Marlboro
      

    re. .1 What is the price for a Roland SDE3000 just out of curiosity?
    I seem to remember seeing them for just under $600
    
    						Mark Jacques
    						LM02/Marlboro Ma
                                                      

    What's the longest delay time on the MV-II.  I thought that most
    of its delay effects where short delay and they were all hardwired
    (i.e. you can't tweak them).
    
    I'd consider that a fair disadvantage.  I am always tweaking my
    Effectron ADM 1024 (which incidentally has the same frequency response
    from 1 msec to 1.024 sec.).   Some units have a mode where they
    halve the sampling rate to double the delay time.  The mode has
    very poor audio characteristcs.
    
    I've said all I could ever say about delays in other notes. My feeling
    is that if would otherwise buy two or more "stomp boxes" for delay
    effects (flange, chorus, slapback, echo), you would save a great
    deal of money in the long run getting a good DDL, and end up with
    something much better on top of that.  (Most delays will also do
    vibrato as well).
    
    I use my delay a LOT.  Anyone at summerjam may have noticed that
    after almost every song I was back twiddling my delay (one of these
    days I'll get one with presets but I really like my ADM-1024) -
    sometimes even in the middle of a song!
    
    It's one of the best investments I've made but whether it's worthwhile 
    for you depends on your style, and your inclination to experiment with it.
    There's a lot of neat things you can do with it (which I've described
    elsewhere).
    
    	db
    

    I guess I have to agree that not being able to tweak delay time
    and other parameters is a dissadvantage, especially if delay is
    mainly what you are looking for, but if you are willing to settle
    for an adequate variety of relatively short delay effects (upto
    460ms) you are also getting a great digital reverb, with some truly
    amazing special effects like multitapped panning, bloom (long building
    swell background effect), flanging, chorusing, reverse reverb, gated
    reverb. as well as stereo inputs and outputs, for $399.oo list. 
    I asked in an earlier note how much a Roland SDE3000 sells for.
    Not everyone has $500-$600 to spend on a digital delay. I think 
    I got the best unit for the money I had to spend.
    By the way I believe that slapback echo is usually under 460ms,
    so this unit provides a great slapback effect. This is the effect
    that most people are after anyways. Long effects are fun but I
    personally don't require them for what I'm playing. Also, with
    the stereo ins and outs you can hook a cable from the spare in to
    the spare out (assuming yours only running mono) and you have infinate
    regeneration of all 99 effects). I'm sure you can do this with any
    other delay, but the spare input and output makes it much easier
    than other methods.
            
    	Another thing that I had in mind when I bought my Alesis MVII
    was that it was going to have to pull double (or triple) duty by
    being used for a guitar effect as well as being used on a small
    P.A. For instance if I wanted to play with a rock band on certain
    nights I can use it on electric guitar, but if I'm playing solo
    acoustic stuff I will use it for my small PA system. It even sounds
    great on my stereo system, where I use it to get a nice ambience
    effect.
    
    	One other point it that a full function digital delay in the
    wrong hands may not sound that good. A lot of really
    fine guitarists do not have the best ear for setting up sound
    gear. Also a lot of people own equipment for years, and never
    realize it's full potential because they don't know how to get
    all the sounds possible out of it. Since the Alesis contains only
    preset effects, there is really no guesswork, or tricks you have
    to know to get all the potential out of it.    
    
    	Enough for now. As always it boils down to opinion, and what
    your priorities are. Mine was price/performance.
    
    						Mark Jacques
    						LM02/Marlboro, Ma.
    

    Dave, I will agree with what people have been saying about spending
    bucks for a good delay, *but*....
    
    If slapback is what you want, and high fidelity is not important,
     the analog delay stomp boxes from folks like Boss and DOD may do
    the trick for $100 or less.
    
    Most get out to about 300 mS which is plenty..."Slap" occurs from
    around 50 to 100 mS, less than 50 sounds like doubling, i.e. two
    guitars playing in unison until you get below say 10 mS where you
    start losing the ability to hear the delay!
    
    A good digital delay will give you a very clean slap...basically
    identical to the straight guitar in tone.  An analog unit will have
    less highs and some hiss, but will sound a lot like the old tape
    echos people used to use....at high regeneration settings, they
    can even give you that "Runaway Echoplex" sound that digital delays
    just can't do.
    
    Analog stomp boxes *cannot* flange, chorus, etc.  If you want to
    be able to do that or need hi-fi, just ignore all this.
    
    Also, Ibanez, DOD/DigiTech and Boss have low-cost (around $150-200)
    digital stomp boxes, with delays up to around a second, with chorus,
    flange, etc. that may do the trick.  They won't outdo a rack mount,
    but if you're not recording the difference may not even be noticable.
    
    As usual, TRY before you BUY...
    
    
    				Brian_who_likes_low_tech_as_much_as_high_tech
    
                                   

    thanks, Brian! $100 sounds MUCH more in line with my (or should
    I say my wife's) budget. 
    
    I prefer the 'Scotty Moore' sound on the old Elvis Sun records -
    some newer guitarists like Brian Setzer and Duke Robillard use
    slapback very nicely.

    Just for the hell of it, Nobell is advertising a multieffect unit
    in Guitar Player lately. It is an orange color rackmount unit,
    which has distorsion, delay, chorus, flange,compression, and
    a graphic EQ in one unit. It doesn't look like a big bucks unit, but
    it looks like it could be fun. I'd like to try one out just for fun.
    I think it's probably in the range of $200-$300 or more, but it
    couldn't hurt to ask.
                                                                        
         Has anyone seen these units in Guitar player or better yet
    in a store ? How much are they selling for ?
    
    						Mark Jacques
    						LM02/Marlboro, Ma.
    	

    
    
    The Nobell is distributed by Latin Percussion.
    
    I haven't seen this or the "Sound Studio" Rockman clone anywhere
    yet.  
    
    Sounds like they are trying to compete with Rockman rack mounts.
    
    

    Recently I saw a used Ibanez DM-1000 for about $100 in this or another
    notefile (Commusic or Music I dunno). That's a good deal. It's a
    rack mount digital delay. For guitar it's got reasonable specs...for
    recording well I use mine but noise can be a problem....BTW it also
    flanges and choruses etc.
    
    dave

    Re. .6  I beg to differ with you. You can get the "runaway echoplex"
    effect with a digi delay just as well as you can with an analog
    delay, simply by setting up a feedback loop from the output of the
    delay back to the input. What you can't get with either digital
    or analog delays that you can get with an echoplex is sound-on-
    sound.  Each time you strike a note on an echoplex it is recorded
    onto tape, and played back by the playback head (slackback). If
    you have sound-on-sound turned on the tape goes around until it 
    comes back again at which point it is added to the notes being played,
    thus sound-on-sound. The length of the tape you are using determines 
    how long before the notes come back around (I believe they were 
    available in 30sec, 60sec, 120 sec.) The playback head is mounted on 
    a slide. When you slide the playback head away from the record head 
    you increasethe delay. I always liked echoplexes, and to this day am still
    considering buying one, especially if I can get one cheap, however
    most of "today's" music does not call for "runaway echoplex" effects.
    
    	A few years ago when echplexes were still popular they were
    selling for about $200.oo. I procrastinated about buying one,
    but never had to money to pick one up. If I see one for sale for
    like 50-75 bucks in decent shape I just might be tempted to go
    for it. With the present price/performance available in digi
    delays I would expect echoplexes in good shape should be available
    for that price. I wonder if you can still buy replacement tapes
    for them or have them repaired, though. 
    
                

    
    Re: .11
    
    What I meant by a "runaway" Echoplex is that sound where the hiss
    begins to build up after many repeats (like on Steve Miller's "Fly
    Like An Eagle").  On a digital delay, there
    is no hiss, but you *do* get a metallic screech when
    regeneration is too high...not a very pleasant sound.

    When I think of "runaway echoplex" I think of the sound of crickets
    chirping louder and faster with time. I know what you mean by the
    sound in Steve Millers "Fly like an Eagle". The hiss being regenerated
    sounds almost like ocean waves washing ashore in a steady rhythm.
    
    What we have forgotten in this age of high technology, is that back
    in the sixties, the classics (like Hendrix) learned how to use noise,
    to make interesting, intense, sounds. They made noise a part of
    their trademark and style. Today we are doing the same thing with
    overdrive and digital effects, however, sometimes it's not done
    as effectively as back in the "good ole days". 
                                              
    I hate to live in the past, but I still like a lot of old Music
    just as much as the new music I hear, if not more. It amazes me
    when I hear that Brian Epstein recorded the Beatles Sargeant 
    Peppers album on a four-track reel to reel recorder. Maybe my
    ears aren't that good but the album sounds pretty noise-free to
    me.
    
    	High tech is great but I like to strike a balance between
    using high tech, and using vintage equipment, to get the sound
    I like. In this spirit I am considering buying a New but original
    "Fuzz Face" and "Cry Baby" wah wah pedal, as well as an Echoplex,
    if I can find a good deal on one. I also have no desire whatsoever
    to part with my Fender Telecaster and Twin Reverb, Hum and all.
    I have also considered buying a Pignose amp, despite all of the
    criticism I've heard against them.
    
    Despite my respect for vintage equipment, I still would never
    want to give up my Alesis Midiverb II multieffects unit, or any
    of the late model equipment that I have purchased. I'm sure that
    most keyboard players are delighted with the equipment available
    to them today, and would never want to go back to the old days of
    dragging around a Hammond B3 and a Fender Rhoades electric piano.
                                              
    	While I am no longer into gigging full time, I like to gig 
    ocassionally, so that I can make a few bucks to spend on
    equipment. I prefer to stay in tuned with music on a hobby
    level. I admit it's an expensive hobby, especially for a husband
    and father like myself, however I'm not into any of the costly
    hobbys that a lot of my freinds are into, like Skiing, Golf,
    nightclubs, expensive cars, racketball, and fashion. Everyone 
    deserves to have at least one hobby even if it takes a little
    money to stay into it. 
    
    	I enjoy using this notes file for corresponding with other
    musicians. I hope a don't come off sounding like a know-it-all.
    I just like to throw my 2 cents in. I'm not trying to do anyone
    one better when talking about effects or guitars in general.
    Also, I hope I don't sound snobby, just cause I managed to
    scrape up some bucks, and talked my wife into letting me buy
    some new toys. If you are on a low budget, I simpathize with
    you. After 5 years of marriage, this is really the first time
    I have spent any money on equipment. Lately I'm like a kid in
    a candy store every time I enter a music store. 
    	                      
    						Mark Jacques
    						LM02/Marlboro, Ma.
    
    
    

	Gee here I thought I was an old fuddy duddy.... A fuzz face? I 
remember those! wow ya know I agree with you Mark. And can relate to the 
family situation as I used some"mad" money to buy my Gibson(non-vintage) 
and Marshall 50 wt.
	I couldn't find a Strat I liked and my family could afford so I
bought what I thought was the next best thing... I'm not worried about
resale value either. I could get into buying a Fender Twin,but only at
the right price and vintage,I heard a real nice one a couple of days ago.
	A know it all? I doubt it! I just really think there is an inter-
esting mix of old timers and younger guys in this conference which really
adds to the discussions and the topics there is a lot to be learned from
everyone and as long as it is fun it's worth it!
	I still like the sound of a B3 and a Rhodes no matter how heavy it 
    was to carry around!
    
    

						Rick

    	Believe it or not I saw the Fuzzface advertised in Guitar 
    Player last month. The ad read "It's back, the effect that
    shaped rock music as we know it". I also still see crybaby 
    wah wah pedals in a lot of stores. At one time I thought,
    why would anyone buy a cry baby, and hassle with the rack 
    and pinion pot assembly when you can get a photo electric 
    Morley in stead. The reason is that the  Morley pedal just 
    can't produce the sound of the original cry baby. Granted
    the Morley pedal probably puts out less noise, and maintains
    unity gain better, but it doesn't have the classic wah wah 
    sound. I also noticed that Echoplex is still advertising in
    Guitar Player as well and now offers a Stereo model. 
    
    
    To quote my wife "Only difference between men and boys is
    the price of their toys". I have to agree. Have you been in
    Child World Lately? $50.oo for a Radio Flyer Wagon !! I can't
    wait until my son is old enough to play guitar !!
    
    						Mark Jacques
    						LM02/Marlboro, Ma.
     	

    re.-1
    Don't rejoice too soon.  My son ( 14 ) plays piano.  For
    Christmas we got him a synth ( ESQ1 ).  But, that's not
    the end of it.  There's keyboard amps, drum machines,
    interface to the Apple, etc, etc... ad infinitum.  The
    future looks bleak for Dad getting any of his toys until
    matriculation.
    
    A $50.00 wagon looks pretty good about now!
    
    					Your friend the penniless
    					but smiling musician/dad
    
    					Doug Dickerson
    

    My neighbor just got his 12-year-old son a $5k+ accordian (get this!)
    WITH MIDI plus a Yamaha FB-01 synthesizer!
    
    Makes sending them to college seem cheap by comparison.
    
    	db

    
    
    Has anyone out there seen a DIGITECH rack mount delay/sampler?
    
          -- ar rrr men.

    
    
    I was looking though the file's for Boss Digital Delay's and this
    seems to be the closest, I'm considering buying a delay pedal and
    the only one that seem's to stand out is the Boss one.....any opinions.
    I've got a small leaflet which I got with one of my other F.X. and
    It says something about holding the footswitch down to hold the
    delay, Now on Metallica's Cliff'em all video on Welcome home
    (sanitarium), Kirk Hammett plays a note and you can hear it being
    reproduced and while that's happening he starts playing the rhythm
    section. Is this possible????
    
    If you understand what I mean......
    
    EWAN

    I think what you want is a unit that offers infinite repeats.  You hit
    the note and it will repeat until you switch it off.  There was a ADA
    rack mount delay for sale for $50 in here the other day.  You might
    want to check and see if it is still for sale.  I'm sure you can
    probably get a switch for it pretty cheap if it has an input for one.
    It also had chorus and flange on it.
    
    Byron

    
    re.19
    
    Maybe he has a delay/sampler pedal ?
    
    -Tony (don't know much about delay pedals except the Yamaha pedal I
           used to have wasn't bad).

    The Boss DD-something (2? 3?) has a "hold" function, which lets you
    play a chord, then press the pedal down, and it'll play it again and
    again and... until you take your foot off the pedal. I've got one, but
    never use the effect (it's a real bugger trying to get the speed right
    of the repeats)
    
    Nick

    
    
    
    O.k., but can you also play something else at the same time as Kirk
    Hammett is......... Maybe it is something like a Delay/Sampler..???
    
    EWAN

    Yes, you can play over the repeats. So, you play a chord and press
    the pedal down, and the chord repeats. You can then play whatever you
    like over the top of that. I'm not familiar with Metallica (is that who
    Kirk Hammett plays with?) but it sounds like you could achieve the
    effect you desire. But as I say, it's a pain trying to get the delay
    time right live - if you're going to use it in a live situation, you
    really need something like a tc2290 (which is a great bit of gear, but 
    costs MEGABUCKS).
    
    Nick

    anyone heard the DOD DFX-9 ? I saw an ad comparing it to the BOSS one.
    its got 92db s/n and 10k bandwith. the boss has 7.
    Its digital, does that really mean less noise than an analog?
    
    I have a CHEAP radio shack delay, got it for 10 bucks. I can assume
    safely that the DOD DFX-9 is cleaner?
    
    thanks 
    jay mr_low_budget

    The DFX-9 is one of the pedals I tried when I initiated the Digitech
    vs. Boss debate in the Boss pedal note.  Most people seem to prefer
    Boss effects in here, but I couldn't tell the difference.
    
    Digitech has really come a long way.
    
    Mike

    its either this or get a used rack mounted alesis or Digitech or whatever.
    I do understand the rack things are better of course. Its just not
    worth it for me to spend on 200 bucks on this...TODAY. :-)
     I'm just going to use it in the effects send to create a false stereo
    image and things like that. I would like pitch shifting though. :-)

    But if all you need is *delay*, you can get rack mount delay units for
    under $100 with some shopping.  The same digital delay units that
    people gladly laid out $700 for in 1985 can be had real cheap these
    days.  And will probably sound better then the stomp box, plus will let
    you do chorus and flanging as well (which the stomp won't).
    
    There's a place in Watertown MA that deals pro audio that regularly has
    delay and reverb rack units that it took in trade for under $100. 
    There was an ADA delay that changed hands twice in this notesfile for
    $50.  And I recently picked up a single rack space unit with *two*
    delays in it for $125 in this notesfile.
    
    							Brian

>    There's a place in Watertown MA that deals pro audio that regularly has
>    delay and reverb rack units that it took in trade for under $100. 

    Since Jay is here in Colorado, I'll mention that there's also a place
    that advertises in the Denver papers called Economy Pro Audio (or
    something such, check the classifieds in the Post), which sounds
    similar.  I don't know anything about them or their prices, but I'll
    probably check 'em out the next time I go to Denver.

    Greg

    . last two.
    
    I will start watching the POST and the notesfiles more. 
    So, Greg, you mean there is another paper besides the GT? :-)
    
    I went through all this madness before I went bought my 4track, and
    it really paid off. I apoligize for asking the same questions over
    and over! :-)
    j

	Following up on Brian's thread - Boss made a whole collection
	of 1/2 rack gear a few years back. They made 2 delays in the
	series:

	o RDD20 - Delay 0.5ms to 400ms, depth and rate controls (chorus,
		phase, flange), feedback (regen), tone, and mix controls.

	o RPS10 - Delay, I think as high as 800ms., pitch shift +/- 1
		octave (this can chorus,too), feedback and mix controls

	I'm currently using an RDD20 and it sounds great. Both have
	footswitch jacks on the back and cost within talking range of $100
	wherever I've seen 'em. And they have *knobs*. Also in the series
	are a reverb (RRV10), a distortion preamp (RDS10), a chorus (RCE10),
	a phaser (RPH10), and a parametric EQ (RPQ10).

	There's lots of old Digitech RDS 1000, 1900, 2000, 4000 type
	boxes floating around in the << $150 range as well.

    A reply from the other side of the Atlantic,  The Boss micro rack
    series is pretty good value for money, used they are very cheap over
    here,  but I don't know how much road use they would stand.
    
    Nigel
    

I've never seen them around.

    Mike Heiser strikes me as an SDE-3000 kind of guy!

but I'd settle for an H3000 and TC2290 ;-)

    The Roland SRV/SDE series are truly superior effects!  Not a lot of
    flash, but they deliver with great sound.  They can be had in the
    $200-$300 range used these days.
    
    Greg

    Well I delayed my purchase long enough, but found a very cool
    pedal that does what I want.  Got the new BOSS RV3 Digital Reverb/Delay
    pedal which is quite impressive for a stomp box.  It's got 3 modes.
    1-3 are delay only that goes up to 2 seconds. 4-7 are delay and reverb
    combined, 8-11 are reverb only.  It's got 4 controls.  some which
    are dual function depending upon what mode you're in.
    
    	 Balance 	Tone/Feedback		Rev Time/Delay Time    Mode
    	(dir/efx)       (reverb only/delay      (reverb/rv or rv+del) (1-11)
    	 	         or delay+reverb)
    
    It's also got stereo out if you want to run it in stereo.  Found some
    of the delay/reverb settings to be some of my faves for that spacious
    and WARM (surprisingly for digital!) sound ... almost like you hear on
    those ECM records.  Yeah,  like the warmest thing next to Roland Space
    Echo's without the surf  8>)....
    
    /Paul 

    I've been dreamin' of one of those for months! Wish i could justify the 
    $250.I test drove one. Loved it,but i have a DD3 and i just can't do
    it...I DON"T HAVE THE POWER!!!
    
    Congrats,
    -kev

    $250!?  Heck no,  I paid $137 + shipping from Wive's Enemy - I mean
    "Musician's Friend".  It was on my door step within 2 days.  With a
    45 day return policy who can argue?!  Seems like the best way to try
    something out - in your own space, thru your own setup, with the band,
    without the band, etc.
    
    ...And I'm keeping it.
    
    /Paul 

    That would be in American money now wouldn't it....

    Yep.  them 'Merican dollars...........