Conference napalm::guitar

    I've owned a Guild D40 (6 string) for about 12 years and am completely
    satisfied with the quality and sound. The list price is usually around
    $800 now but it is almost never sold at that price. You should have no
    problem finding a new one within your price range if you want a
    good six string. A friend has the 12 string version (don't know the
    model) and that is also a very nice instrument.
    
    Nick

Don't know where you live, but if it's near a major city then go over to the
public library and look up "guitars" in the card index - i did this over to
the framingham public lib and was amazed at the selection of books on guitar
playing, construction, selection, etc...

One in particular was the Guitar Handbook, which contrasted the development
of both the Martin and Gibson companies and the acoustic guitars they made.

it does depend upon what kind of sound you are looking for as well.  I've
owned a twelve string Sigma (Martin subsidiary) for about 8 years - i bought 
it used.  last year it began to pull itself apart so i made it into a 
fat-necked six string, but for eight years it was a great sounding, and real
easy to play - i'd never encountered a 12 string that had a more comfortable
neck, or better action.  It also had a built in B.B. pickup in the bridge.
Cost me $150.oo back then.

-max-

    re: Guilds
    
    I'll second that.
    
    Every Guild guitar I've ever tried has been excellent in my opinion.
    
    	db

    I've owned a Guild D-35 NT (6 string) for nine years now, and I love
    it.  I think it's one model down from the D-40 previously mentioned, but
    I can't tell you what the difference is.
    
    As far as twelve strings go, I used to have a Yamaha 12 string that
    I thought was excellent.  It was really light (weighed less than
    the Guild), had nice action, and sounded good.  I've never played
    a Guild 12 string, but they do have a very good reputation.

    But the only advice you really need is to play as many guitars from
    as many makers as you can get your hands on, brand names be damned.
    If you find something you really like, buy it.  There are so many good 
    guitars around that I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by 
    limiting yourself to a few well-known guitar companies.
    
    Guitars can differ drastically, even for 'identical' models.  I've
    played several other Guild D-35's since I got mine, and was surprised
    when I *hated* the sound of a couple of them.  So let your ears
    and fingers guide you.  But don't walk that way in public; people
    will stare.   :-)
    
    Rodney M.   

    
    I have owned a Guild F48, Jumbo bodied 6 string flat top for about
    8 years. I have no complaints. I suggest you get yourself a good
    6 string and than later on get an inexpensive 12 string. I think
    you'll find yourself playing the 6 string more. I suggest you stick
    with a dreadnought size body rather than a Jumbo like mine. They're
    more comfortable to play than jumbo's. 
    
    	Also, if you plan on playing through an amp or P.A. I suggest
    you look for one with a factory installed bridge pickup. I also
    suggest you look at some of the following brands and compare:
    
    		Takamine **		Yamaha		
    		Washburn		Ibinez 
    		Gibson			Epiphone (a real sleeper)
    		Martin Sigma
    

    
    
    Further to this point, I also have a 12 string which i frequently redduce
    to a fat necked 12 (try going the other way on a 6 string!). The
    point is they are totally different instruments and they each lend
    themselves to  different sorts of music. For instance, nothing touches
    Hotel California on a 12. The same applies to other music that reiles
    on full rich chord progressions. However, anything reliant on a
    degree of lead playing really needs a 6 string mostly (ie,blues,
    rock and roll).
    
    I would second .5, get a good 6 string and a cheaper (not too cheap though)
    12 string later.
                                           
    Richard Briggs
    UK SWAS

    I can second that. Play as many as you can get your hands on
    in all price ranges. I have owned a Sigma 6, a Takamine 6,
    and currently have a Guild G-37Bld. All were good, with the 
    Sigma and Takamine being the cheaper in price, like
    a beginer model. But the Guild is sex itself. I also picked
    up a old beat up used Gibson 12 that was great. Nice action
    and fun to play, but make sure you have a good 6 first. You'll
    probably play it more.
    
    Dave.
    

    Let's hear it from the 12 string fanatics. I like 12 string better
    than a 6. So I will agree to get what you like, but to get 6 string
    because you will play it more? That goes back to what you like best
    statement. 
    
    I have two 12 string electric and one acoustic. I like them all.
    I also have a classical and a six electric. I like those too, but
    definitely I do enjoy the 12 string better.

    I now of a place in Marlboro where you can get a Sigma 6 for a
    good price. Valenti Music in Marlboro which closed its doors about
    a year ago. The owner, Cosmos Valenti, still has a few guitars left.
    He has a small music studio in his house, and among the guitars
    are two Sigmas. I do not which model they are, but you probably can
    get one for about or under $200. I think he has them mark for $279.
    

        Could some  of  you  give  me  advise  on  what to look for in an
        acoustic steel string  guitar  in  terms of physical construction
        and playability?  How  for example, do you tell if the guitar has
        a solid top or laminated,  from  looking  at it?  How do you tell
        the  difference  between  ebony fretboards and  cheap  dyed  wood
        imitations?  What physical characteristics should be checked, and
        how?
        
        And what specific playing type tests should be done  on  a guitar
        other than just playing a couple favorite tunes?
        
        The  stringed  instruments  I  currently  own  (  6string guitar,
        mandolin, banjo)  were  all  inexpensive  gifts from non-musician
        family.  I  have  never  bought  my own instrument before now.  I
        want to be sure  I can get the best quailty guitar possible in my
        price range.
        

    I'm another player whose primary guitar is a 12-string (custom
    Martin). I would generally stay away from Gibson acoustic guitars
    (it's taste, I know, but the ones I've played both weigh and sound
    like they're filled with cement). As you won't find a Martin
    in your price range, I'll n-th the motion on looking at a Guild.
    
    In that price range, no legitimate instrument will have a laminated
    (plywood) anything. One useful distinction is the selection of wood
    for the sides/back (the face will/should be spruce) . In the $4-600
    price range you're likely to be looking at mahogany, though you
    might find rosewood in a 6-string Guild if you know where to
    look (especially in a used instrument). Other things being equal,
    a rosewood guitar has a superior sound to a mahogany - mostly
    in a tighter (less muddy) low end. While I've never been a big
    fan of Japanese-manufactured guitars (ever since Greg Kihn broke
    my Yamaha - very old story), they've improved since 1969, and
    you might well find a fairly good rosewood Martin-copy-Takamine
    in your price range. (I've always wondered when Takamine was
    going to start doing Yamaha copies.)
    
    Size is another interesting issue. If you're a finger picker,
    I would go for a smaller body than a dreadnaught. Dreadnaughts
    are nice flatpicking guitars, but tend to sound unbalanced and
    heavy when fingerpicked. (My ears speaking!) The "best" size
    for "perfectly balanced" fingerpicking is a 00 or 000 size (using
    Martin terminology); these are generally one or two sizes smaller
    than a dreadnaught with a more defined waist. If you're getting
    a 12-string, you pretty much are looking at a dreadnaught size,
    though. 

    Most important thing after locating a couple of quality instruments
    in your price range is to play them before buying: fingering,
    neck shape, and sound are extremely subjective, and can override
    all of the considerations (wood, size, etc.) I've rambled about.

    re: .9
    
    Unless there's fancy binding around the soundhole ( very rare )
    then you can tell if the top of a guitar is laminated or solid by
    looking at the top "edge-on".  The grain of the wood should match
    at the edge of the sound hole.
    
    re: 10 
    
    There are sonic differences between mahogany and rosewood backs
    ( and sides ).  But, to characterize one as "better" is an
    aesthetic judgement.  Many guitarists of my aquaintance have found
    specific guitars which they prefferred in mahogany.  The advice
    to play and listen to the specific instrument is valid and 
    important ( buying a guitar mailorder is like phone sex: stupid
    and ultimately frustrating ).
    
    re: 9 again
    
    What "tests" to perform on a prospective purchase?  Well, other
    than playing tunes you know:
    1) Check the intonation.  This is most important with gut or 
    nylon string guitars ( for some reason they are the worst for
    poor intonation, at least in my limited experience.)  If you
    are unsure of how to check intonation or question your ear's
    ability to hear bad intonation, take a friend along who's more
    experienced. A good technique is to pick an interval your ear
    "hears" well ( fourths are good for me ) and play it all the way
    up the neck.  The interval should remain accurate all the way
    up the neck on a good instrument.
    2) "Detune" and then re tune the guitar.  Are the tuning machines
    smooth and accurate.  In a retail store, the strings on the guitar
    have been on the guitar a while and are probably relatively "dead".
    If you like the instrument and it sounds good ( good balance between
    bass and treble, good action, good volume, and most important in
    evaluating an expensive instrument- good sustain ), try to get the
    salesman to let you put a new set of strings on.
    3) Is the guitar "comfortable"?  Does the neck size and shape fit
    your hand?  Does it feel good in your arms?( God, what an erotic
    instrument!)
    
    Finally, there is no TECHNICAL reason a guitar should sound better
    with a solid back and sides vs laminated back and sides.  In a
    guitar ( unlike a violin ) the back SHOULD CONTRIBUTE NOTHING to
    the vibrational forces which make the music.  The  back and sides
    perform a function analagous to a speaker enclosure.  They should
    be rigid and minimally resonant.  This little detail can save you
    a few bucks.  The major reason multi kbucks guitars sound better
    has almost nothing to do with solid woods on the back and sides.
    It has to do with workmanship, construction details, and often
    the genius of the luthier.
    
    						Regards
    						Doug Dickerson
    

    re: .11
    
    The most common intonation problem is a misplaced bridge saddle,
    and the best way I know to test for it is to compare the harmonic
    at the twelfth fret with the actual 'fingered' note.  Do this with
    each string.  If the notes don't match, you'll need to adjust the
    position of the bridge saddle.  If everything else about the guitar
    is satisfactory, you might consider bargaining around that point
    and having it repaired later.  It's likely to cost $10 to $70.
    
    Of course, any test of intonation is pretty useless if the neck
    isn't straight.
    
    On backs and sides:  I'll concede that the sides are virtually neutral,
    mainly because they're severely constrained, but the back *does*
    vibrate, and also reflects sound through the sound hole.  And I
    think most of us claim to hear a difference between rosewood and
    mahogany guitars.
    
    Bob
    

    It's been suggested that you use defects in the guitar like poor
    intonation to bargain down the price (for the price of repair).
    
    I totally disagree.
    
    My recommendation is do NOT buy a guitar that isn't set up to your
    satisfaction (intonation, action, etc) or has any problem that needs
    to be repaired unless it's a great deal and you are completely
    confident that the problems can be corrected.   If necessarily you
    can make the repairs part of the purchase agreement.
    
    It is far from true that all guitars can be intonated properly via
    repair, or that the action on guitars can be lowered enough to suit
    your preferences, or that guitar can be repaired to stay in tune,
    etc.
    
    I think it's ok to buy a guitar with the thought to "customize",
    but I sincerely feel that buying a guitar with the thought that
    it can be "repaired" or "setup properly" is a BIG mistake.

    	db

    I just meant that if the *ONLY* problem is bad intonation due to
    a misplaced saddle or bridge, a qualified repairperson can fix it
    easily.  
    
    In the simplest case, you just reshape the saddle to shift the break
    point of the strings.  Sometimes you have to widen the saddle groove
    and use a thicker saddle or fill the groove and cut a new one. 
    Worst case, you replace the bridge - a very common operation.
    
    I agree that you shouldn't buy a cheap clunker and try to rebuild
    it, but the specific intonation problem I mentioned is very common
    and completely repairable.  I've seen dozens of, otherwise, very
    good guitars with this problem.  Especially Martins made in the
    seventies.  For several years, their quality control on bridge
    placement was so bad, the luthier in the shop where I taught wrote
    a letter to the factory to complain.  
    
    The last Martin I bought had this very problem and I bargained
    $50 off the 'final' price, which is exactly what I paid a master
    luthier to replace the bridge.
    
     
    Bob
     
    

    re: .14
    
    My note was sorta "inspired" by your note, but not really intended
    specifically as a reply to it.
    
    What you've said is true (THAT specific problem is repairable),
    however, when you pick up a guitar and find it has poor intonation
    you really can't KNOW for certain whether it can be properly
    intonated by a reasonable amount of repair.
    
    Could be any of the following:
    
    	o bad strings
    	o bridge saddle problems
    	o neck problems
    	o worn frets
    	o misplaced frets
    	o any of a number of general design problems
    
    You just can't really know what you might be getting into.  If the
    bridge needs to be adjusted (as is the case on the majority of guitars
    I've ever tried out at stores) you can usually determine that by comparing
    the harmonic with the 12th fret (assuming the fret isn't worn or
    misplaced) but the nature of intonation problems is such that you
    generally can't know what all the problems are (or the extent that
    they are problems) until you start eliminating them one by one.
    
    I think my advice was good.

    	db

    I was out looking today - store 
                                    I went to has Martin Shenandoah
    guitars in my price range.  I know that these are lower line Martins
    but what opinion do you folks have?  How does a MArtin Shenandoah
    compare to, say, a Guild in the same price range?  And do the
    Shenandoah's have the Martin lifetime warranty?
    

    I might as well just stick in a few things myself ... last first.
    A friend of mine bought a 000-28 Martin Shenandoah ... one of the
    most excellent guitars I've held (I'm 'box sitting' it right now),
    came with a regular Martin hardshell case and lifetime warranty
    to original owner.  Also has the 332 Thinline pickup under the bridge.
    Ran retail at ~$850 2 years back ...hard to go wrong with that
    particular line ... the Shenandoah series are excellent for all
    I've seen.
    
    I started playing guitar with a Yahmaha 420-12G (I think) 12 string.
     At about $350 it's a very nice guitar ... very good action, great
    soundand I love it.  There is a similar model that has the pick-up
    mounted under the bridge.
    
    Ovation has some very nice guitars, 12 strings included with some
    at the lower end of the pricing scale (~$400->) ... certainly wouldn't
    rule them out ... some of the better actions I've played.  Almost
    bought one of the Custom Legends but found a used Martin HD-28 just
    recently that I just couldn't pass up.
    
    Check Martin Sigma also for decent guitars in the lower price ranges.
    
    Some FYI on mail order ... I have talked to the people at Music
    Emporium 1-301-869-5880/customer service (ask for Clarence) who
    says that if you don't like it w/in ten days get a return authorization
    and they'll take it back for credit, exchange, whatever.  Clarence
    said that he would hand pick whatever and try to get you what you
    want as far as grain, action, etc.  Won't be you but better than
    no personalized service at all.  I agree about it's scarey buying
    an acustic through the mail but with Custom Legends going at $1400
    and then still getting to buy a case (Pro Sound, yech!) ... a $875
    price tag w/case is hard not to think about giving it a shot.  They
    have some very good deals on Martins (regular line as well as the
    Shenadoahs) and Ovations for acustics.  Bunches of electrics with
    the Ricky hollow-body 12 for (as I remember) at about $860.

    Well, this is it, everybody.  Today is the day I take my cash in
    hand and (thanks to other notes in this conference) try to work
    out the best deal I can get.  I appreciate all the responses to
    this note.  Last minute suggestions are welcome. 
    
    Never having bought a guitar for myself until today, there is m{ch
    I don't know, but you have helped.  By the way, {his may seem like
    a ridiculous question, but these acoustic/electric guitars like
    the Guild F-45,  are they just as good without amplification?  Is
    the acoustic part of it just as gooas any other acoustic guitar?
     I guess I'll find out.      {M

    Get out while you can! Put you money back! If you go through with
    this purchase you will be bound to hours upon hours of fun and
    learning, making friends and going to party 'jams'. It's not worth
    it! These people are depraved and so shall you be!!
    
    Ah well, another soul lost to music and this whacky instrument. 
    
    Who's next?
    
    ;-}D
    

    re .19
    
    Right-o - if you want to meet a bunch of people you otherwise have
    nothing in common with (oops, that is, with whom you otherwise have
    nothing in common - don't dangle those participles), and perhaps
    make a buck in the process, try hosting Tupperware parties.
    
    There's something basically wrong with someone whose left-hand
    nails are shorter than their right-hand nails. 

    I did it.
    
    I came home with a new Guild JF-30 BLD 6 string AND a cheaper Alvarez
    12 striung model 5054.  I am very happy.
    
    The MArtin Shenendoah's in my price range did not come close to
    the Guild in terms of tone and playability.
    
    Thanks for all your suggestions - except for the Tupperware party,
    I hate those!
    
    Making music with a smile!  :-)
    

    By the way, I got my guitars at MacDuff's music on Rt. 9 in Shrewsbury,
    and I was extremely pleased with their service and the deal I got.
    I most heartily agree with previously made recommendations of this
    shop and its staff.