Conference napalm::guitar

    
    	It's style of sound, right??
    
    	Rock player has solid body guit with two pickups and metal strings...
    
    	Jazz player has hollow body guit with one pickup and metal
        strings...
    
    	Folk player has "spanish" guit with metal strings...
    
    	Classical player has "spanish" guit with nylon strings...
    
    
    	Of course these are generalizations. But the trend is clear;
    as you go from rock to classical, the sound goes from "loud and
    raunchy", typically, to "sweet and mellow". I know a fella who
    dislikes playing thru amplification, doesnt need pickups on his
    guitar and uses a gut string. Even though he plays the blues, He's
    definately not a "rock guitarist".
    
    	Joe Jas
    
    

    Here are the things that I usually would use to gauge whether or
    not someone is a "rock" guitarist:
    
    1.  Plays primarily in 4/4, usually without any swing.
    
    2.  Plays primarily major, minor and pentatonic (blues) scales.  Avoids
        extended chord harmonies (9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc.)
    
    Obviously, these also apply to many folk and country guitarists
    as well as some blues players.  The point is that you can't really
    put your finger on what a "rock" guitarist is.  Look at a guy like
    Steve Tibbets; he's called "new age" or "ambient", etc. but has
    said that he considers himself a heavy metal player (??!!) working
    without a band.  So is he a rock guitarist? Well, it's not jazz,
    blues, country, folk or any other category you can name, but it's
    also not Chuck Berry.
                                                            
    As far as instruments go, there have been rock players using everything
    from fat jazz guitars to solid-body classical guitars; I don't think
    that the instrument choice or volume has anything to do with it.
                         
    Here's a side topic for discussion:
    	Can you call yourself a ROCK AND ROLL player if you can't play
    Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly licks?

    I have to admit that the phrase "rock guitarist" brings to my mind
    exactly the kind of player that AQUA::ROST (would have used your
    first name if you had provided one) described in .2:
    
    1.  Plays/writes in 4/4.
    
    2.  Plays primarily pentatonic scales
    
    3.  Chord vocabulary limited to major, minor (but generally plays
        5 chords so those sorta don't matter anyway), dominant 7th,
        sus4 and very occasionally maj 7th.
    
    4.  Rarely comes out from behind the distortion.
    
    5.  Has a tendency towards flashy techniques (tapping, whammy bars,
        harmonics, etc.) and generally plays fast (often faster than
        his technique allows).
    
    6.  Leans heavily on Page, Clapton, etc. cliches (but may not know
        that).
    
    Now, I know that this is unfair.  I'm not trying to pigeon-hole
    rock guitarists... only to stereotype them.  That is, this is what
    comes to mind when I think of a rock guitarist.
    
    	db
    
    P.S.  Opening up the stereo-type a little  allows for some other
          less predictable rules (just having fun here):
    
    7. Thinks Larry Carlton is "elevator music"
    
    8. Plays Van Halen's "Eruption" everytime he walks into a music
       store.
    
    9. Cites names like Bach and Beethoven as major influences but probably
       doesn't own a single recording of eithers works.
    
    10. Thinks his guitar is a truly "special" instrument.

    Good topic, Bill!
    
    I think 'rock' guitar is much more advanced than it was, say,
    10 years ago. The Van Halens and then the Malmsteens have expanded
    the horizons of rock guitar tremendously. Accomplished rockers
    have (to me) incredible technique; far beyond anything I've ever
    tried to do. Rock is a style unto itself. So what if you don't
    hear people playing 11th and 13th chords. The music doesen't lend
    itself to that kind of subtlety, and the kids buying most of the
    rock albums wouldn't like it anyways. When I was 18 I HATED jazz.
    I thought it was boring. I thought Black Sabbath was the greatest
    thing in the world. Tastes change as you get older and more mellow.
    
    Of course, there are good rock guitarists, then there are kids with
    big egos and little talent who think they can play guitar. These
    are the ones you find in the music stores playing 'Eruption' every
    afternoon when you blow off work :-) 

>   So what if you don't hear 11th and 13th chords?  The music doesn't
>   lend itself to that kind of subtlety...

    Oh, I disagree.

    I think there are tunes by Steve Morse, Larry Carlton, Jeff Beck, Keith
    Emerson, etc. that demonstrate that those kind of subtleties have
    their place.  It just takes a little more work.

    BTW, I'm not saying that music that doesn't use extended chords or
    non-rock-standard scales is inferior.  But I will go so far as to
    say that I find most guitarists who rely on pentatonic scales and
    standard rock chords and progressions very boring and unoriginal.

    I tend to think of them as Clapton/Page/etc clones and in my opinion
    there are far too many of them.  (Hey, I number myself among them
    so I'm not claiming to be above this.)

    	db

    Personally, My view of a `rock' guitarist is very similar to DB's
    description in .3. I tend to think of them as your blues based w/the
    EVH influence on the side playing 3-5 chord rock. Someone who'd
    be in the Joan Jett band, The Clash, or a replacement for Billy
    gibbons in ZZ Top. I don't really consider people like Jeff Beck
    or Eric Clapton rock guitarists. Maybe they were years ago, but
    I think what they're doing now escapes my definition. 
    
    Rock tends to be somewhat on the simplistic side opften, but i think
    in some ways it has to be to sound right. I mean, some bands with
    a `rock sound' (i.e.- Rush, Zappa) have the sound, but with their
    inflection of odd meters, tends to pull it away from the standard
    rock format. For DB's sake, I'll cc Steve Morse on that last statement,
    he qualifies also. (^%
    
    It's interesting to note Dave's point of the new influence on the
    rock guitar scene. With the coming of age of Eddie Van Headache
    & Yngwie Malm-fiend, It seems all the players are trying to sound
    like them now (Reference the Boston rock music scene for living
    examples!), much like the influence Clapton and Page must have had
    10 years ago. Where do you think it'll go next...will we have a
    new standard of Michael Hedges Mega-chops in 5-10 years?
    
    Bj

    I notice that other than myself (in .3) noone has mentioned any players
    from before the mid 60's as an influence.  How about Scotty Moore,
    Chuck Berry, the Ventures, Hank Marvin, Link Wray, Lonnie Mack,
    etc. who were around in the dawn of rock?  It's interesting that
    most people hear current guitarists as playing "Clapton/Beck/Page"
    cliches when those guys were already second or third generation
    rockers!  I hope I'm not dating myself, but maybe this is why so
    many modern players sound rootless...because they are!
    
    BTW, I also didn't mean anything derogatory about not playing extended
    harmonies...it's just that most rockers don't.  In fact, due to
    the harmonic overtones generated through distortion, it actually
    becomes difficult to use extended harmonies....ask Peter Townsend,
    who is a master at building barre chords without thirds.          
    
    The important thing to remember is that to sound AUTHENTIC in a
    style, one must know it's rules. Which is why rockers who ape country
    music or jazzers who try to rock, etc. sound lame; they don't
    understand what they're doing!

>    Rock tends to be somewhat on the simplistic side often, but i think
>    in some ways it has to be to sound right. I mean, some bands with
>    a `rock sound' (i.e.- Rush, Zappa) have the sound, but with their
>    inflection of odd meters, tends to pull it away from the standard
>    rock format. 
    
    Well, see, the question I have to ask (not just to WJB) is "How
    is this different from saying 'if it has non-standard chords, rhythms,
    etc it ain't rock'" as opposed to saying 'rock is not amenable
    to these things'.
    
    I had to think twice about classifying the names I listed
    (including Morse) as "rock", but I think Morse does a lot of stuff
    which I consider to be rock even though he may play 7 over 3 behind
    an Ab add9/B in 6/8.
    
    I mean if we DEFINE rock to be a song identical in most respects
    to the Georgia Satellites "Don't Hand me no Lies and Keep your hands
    to Yourself" (?) then there's not much point to this discussion.

    	db

    
    What is a rock guitar player ???
    
    It's a state of mind that changes its direction slightly about every
     10yrs.
    
    Think about it.
    
    
    
    ex-studio-rat
    

    Relative to .8 and .9, how about saying that what makes a rock
    guitarist is that the player is ROOTED in the simple rock style even
    if he goes outside of it often... which makes Morse a rock player
    and DiMeola a jazzer. I'm starting to think that this note is getting
    a little ridiculous because all this labeling is trying to put into
    words something that there are no words for.

    Re: .8
    
    db, let me clarify what I was trying to say. I was saying that most
    music in the rock genre uses a strong back beat with the accents
    on 2 & 4. Just as most reggae uses a beat with the accents on 1
    & 3. This obviously is not the case for ALL msuic in either genre,
    or is it to say that a song using a beat with a strong 2 & 4 beat
    is in the rock genre necessarily.
    
    Bj 

    
    REAL ROCK GUITAR PLAYERS PLAY WHAT COMES THROUGH THEM.
    NOT FROM SOMETHING, OR FROM SOMEONE OR EVEN LIKE SOMEONE.
    BREAK THE RULES, BE AN ARTIST!!!

    I'm a little distressed to see that so many people are saying rock
    guitarists are all the 17 year olds playing "eruption" on guitars
    they'll never be able to afford in music stores.  In *my* definition, 
    these AREN'T rock and roll guitarists, but mere clones of the ones who 
    *may* be.  What would you classify Dave Gilmour?  An excellent player,
    you plays rock and roll, but wouldn't dream/ be caught dead doing
    anything remotely reminiscent of Eddie Van Halen or Yngwie Malmsteen.
    Just my opinion, no flame intended and I'd rather not start any
    holy wars.
    
    		Regards,
    			Craig
    

    Dave Gilmour is a great guitarist he doesn't fit my picture of "Rock
    Guitarist".   I don't even think of Pink Floyd as a "rock band"
    (nor any of the "art-rock" bands).
    
    	db

	If you want to listen to a 'real' rock guitarist, check
	out Gary Moore (Ex Thin Lizzy, Colliseum, etc.)... here's
	someone who can play all styles from classical onwards
	but favours a heavy rock style - you don't have to be
	musically illiterate to be a rock'n'roller...

	Jonathan.

 
    Just out of intrest how would one "label" the late Randy Rhoads,
    or Steve Via.   ???????
    
                        cat amongst the pigeons
      
       JON.