Conference napalm::guitar

    I'm assuming that when you say:
    
       > Given any song/tune...
    
    that you don't mean just the melody.  For any melody, I can pick
    a couple of chords that technically, and perhaps artistically, fit.
    
    If you mean: "I hear a song on the radio and I want to be able to
    play and sing it, but I can't figure out the chords", then we have
    the same problem.  Here's some things I've tried:
    
    Knowing the key clearly narrows the choices down.  The tonal center
    and hence the key is usually apparent from the structure, but I
    believe the most infallible way to determine the key (short of having
    the score) is to find out what chord the song ends on.  That's the
    key.
    
    Some of those tricky chords are used as passing tones...to get from
    one resting place to another.  Unless you're playing avant-garde
    forms (I hope you are!), the mode in which you're playing helps
    to dictate the chord. Check out modes, and diatonic chords.
    
    The melody is usually the top note of the comping chord, most often
    in 'stock' tunes that are not harmonically adventurous.  
    
    Actually, you've really answered the question yourself.  The best
    way is to be able to recognize from the sound what chord is being
    played.  You can already do this for major and minor chords; just
    another 10E6 listens and you'll be able to pick out that Bbmin7-5
    anytime. ;^)
    
    Anyone else got any ideas?
    
    Regards,
    Johnny Jupiter
    
    
    
    
    

    Well, there's probably a lot of people who have systems for doing
    this (and probably more than a few formal systems for doing it).
    The way I approached this when I was learning was as follows:
    
    1. Simple case (all diatonic chords)
    
    If you've figured out what key the song is in, and all the notes
    of the song are in the key, then it follows that all the chords
    backing the song should be made up of notes in the key. Take the
    key of C -
    
    Notes      C     D     E     F     G     A     B     C
    
    Chord      C     Dm    Em    F     G     Am    Bm7-5 C
    spelling   CEG   DFA   EGB   FAC   GBD   ACE   BDFA  CEG
    
    Now, whenever the chord changes, the melody will 'outline' or
    'suggest' the new chord. For example, if the chord changes and
    the new measure has an E and a G note, the new chord might be
    a C or an Em. So you can narrow your search down considerably.
    Now, you have to let your ear decide which one is right. A minor
    chord has a more melancholy feel than a major chord. 
    
    At a higher level, chords tend to move in progressions. One of the
    main instruments for chord progressions is the 'cycle of fifths'.
    This is based on the idea thata chord wants to resolve to the chord
    a fifth below it. For example, the G7 chord wants to have a C chord
    played after it;  C being a fifth below G. We could write a progression
    based entirely on the cycle of fifths:
    
    C7-F7-Bb7-Eb7-Ab7-Db7-Gb7-B7-E7-A7-D7-G7-C7
    
    that starts and ends on C7. Many songs are based on this cycle of
    fifths - start at C, move back a few steps, then cycle forward.
    Take the segment A7-D7-G7-C7. Make the chords diatonic to the C
    scale and start with the C chord. We get C-Am-Dm-G. Since the Dm
    and the F chord are made up of almost the same notes, we can sub-
    stitute one for the other. Now our progression is C-Am-F-G.
    
    A lot of blues, ragtime, and jazz moves outside of the diatonic
    scale. For example, the chords to the verse part of 'Daydreamin'
    Boy' are (in C) C-A7-D7-G7 repeated a few times. 
    
    THe big thing here is to train your ear to regognize these familiar
    progressions. I found that if I just played them a lot, I got a
    feel for when they were used. Also, analyzing the chordal structure
    to songs you already know help give you 'practical examples' of
    how chords fit together.
    
    -Dave

    One other thing that I would add to Dave's excellant narrative
    is to also listened to what is happening in the bass line.
    If not the bass guitar itself try to hone in on the bass line
    from the guitar.  This is a very good indicator since in most
    pop songs root position is the order rather than inversions.
    Then try and follow this along with the chord changes you can
    hear.  If the chord changes than change your bass note.  From
    there use Dave's examples to spell out the chord and see if 
    it fits.
    
    =ken

    
    Very interesting replies. I play by ear and although I can come up
    with the chords rather quickly, I never really stopped to think
    about it. It just sort of happens. Great hint about the bass line!
    I find that ordinarily there are finite places to go once you have
    the starting chord. A hang-up up chords not normally used but that
    just makes it more challenging.

    	Ken's comment was what I've been doing for years. I work out
    which bass note fits the nicest with a chord. Hopefully this will
    be the root note of the chord. Then I decide what type of chord
    it is...
    		Happy sounding chord 	=	Major chord
    		Sad sounding chord	=	Minor chord
		None of the above       =       Dom 7th chord
    
    		(please excuse the very simplistic approach)
    
    	I must admit that my methods have changed a little since seven
    long years ago but this seemed to work pretty well for me as a
    beginner. Another trick of mine was to go to my local music store
    with pencil & paper. I'd look at all my favourite songbooks and
    jot down the chords to my favourite songs. I probably broke a million
    copywrite laws but what the heck - a teenage allowance dosn't go
    far. (come to think of it, neither does a grown-ups allowance)
    
    Colin.

    Keep all these tips coming, when I've got a good set I'll print
    them off. I've heard the one about the base line before but never
    really tried it. I'll give it a go.
    
    Problem with me is that I have always been a relatively affluent
    guitarist! This means the easy way out has always been to go and
    buy the sheet music. I would say in hindsight that that is a bad
    habit to get into early in your guitar learning curve.
    
    Anyway, keep 'em comin.....
    
    Richard
    

this is a great note, i'm one of those who can pick out music just from
listening to it, but i've never sat down and thought about how i do it.

i am somewhat of a purist, sheet music almost never puts the right chords
in over the staff - they're close, maybe - but when you listen to the song
there's no-one actually using those chords - what they're using is non-standard
variants.  just figuring out the chord is not always enough, you also have to
figure out how they're playing it!  Consider all the ways there are to play
a single chord, then try them out till you find the one that fits.

Jethro Tull's tune "Teacher" (yes i am that old!) uses a A variant that's
not really an A - but if you check the sheet music, 9 times out of 10, they'll
put a standard A chord over the staff.

======                      ======                      i guess what i'm trying
||||||                      ||||||                      to say is that there's
++++++ This is the one      ++++++                      a lot of ways to play
||oo|| you can hear         ||||||                      the same chord by using
++++++ <-------------       ++++++                      different fingerings
||||||                      ||||||  this one works too  as you move up the neck
++++++                      ++++++  <-----------------  and a lot of times you
||||||                      ||||||                      have to experiment until
++++++                      ++++++                      you find the correct 
||||||                      o|||||                      combination.
                            ++++++
                            |||o||
                            ++++++
                            |oo|||
                            ++++++
                            ||||||

Also be aware that some songs are done using non-standard tunings.  Joni
Mitchell is famous for this - she uses G, E, and D tunings a lot and you
can't play any of those songs in standard tuning and have them sound right.

E tuning is  E B E A B E, For JM's Clouds, Nathan LaFrenier, Radio
D tuning is  D A D A D F#, Dan Fogelberg's Song From Half Mountain
G Tuning is  G G D G B D, JM's For the Roses
Em7 Tuning is E B E G B D, For CSN's Guinevere

-max-

	A lot of times I can get the changes more easily on piano than
	guitar.  Maybe a different set of timbres lets me hear the wrong
	guesses more easily?  Can't be my piano ability, it's worse than
	my guitar...