Conference napalm::guitar

        Alot of good questions!  From the standpoint of major brands,
    it seems that Martin is back to fine quality and consistancy again.
    They had some labor problems a few years back.  As far as Guilds
    go, I've had a D25-M for the past eight years until about a week
    ago when I traded it for some other gear.  Nearly all the Guilds
    I've played over the years were good quality, solid guitars.  My
    only concern was that the fretting wasn't the most accurate in 
    available, although quite good.  The moral to the story is that
    the Guild is not a Martin.  The Guild has noticibly less bottom
    end, less projection and a bit less accuracy.  Their are some good
    retail outlets, as well as other opportunities.  Drop me a line
    on PSGMKG::SMILEY.
                          Bob

 My experience may not be a good example for you since I have just
recently moved here from Japan, but this is what happened when 
I bought my second and third guitar at Alvarez (A.K.A.   K.Yairi
in Japan).  

 I heard from a friend that I could buy a guitar for 30% off price 
if I would go to their factory. Fortunately their factory was close 
to one of my former homes, and so I went there and purchased my second 
guitar.  After I got it, I occasionally visited the factory and became 
acquainted with one of their craftsman.  They announced a new guitar 
a year after then and I could buy their monitor guitar through him.  
Of course 30% off price.

 Have you ever been to any factory?  If not yet, I think it would 
be a good experience for you to visit one.
 
 Katsuhiko

    I too am in the market for a new acoustic. I am close to closing
    on the sale of my latest acoustic which is a Guild. I like the
    Guild, but am looking to upgrade to an acoustic/electric that
    will sound great both acoustically and electrically. Believe me,
    it is not easy to find an acoustic with both qualities. 
    
    Ovations has got the best pickup/preamp system on the market.
    (Anyone care to argue this point, please no flames, but I am 
    interested in any facts that I may have missed in my investigation).
    Even Ovations has some inferior pickups, however. You have to 
    look into these things very closely before you buy. 
    The ultamate pickup/preamp system would include a bridge mounted
    pickup with an individual crystal piezo element under each string,
    with a Fet preamp that has active bass, midrange, treble, and gain.
    Anything less than this is a sacrifice in electric sound (IMO).
    The only Ovations guitars that offer all of these features are the
    top-of-the-line models with OP-24 electronics. Mid priced models have
    individual pickups with active gain, but passive tone controls
    (not too bad). Below that they have guitars with just volume,no
    tone, and the low end has a single element piezo pickup. 
    Ovations guitars may have the best electric sound, but acoustically
    that really do not have the sound of an all-wood instrument, and
    personally, I would rather have an instrument with real wood
    throughout. 
        
    Takamine is a Japanese manufacturer which is owned by Kahman, which
    owns Ovations. From what I understand, they are using a system similar
    to the OP24 electronics used on Ovations (on their steel string
    acoustics only, nylon string models have what looks like a single
    element pickup similar to the Shadow system). I have tried several
    Takamine's both acoustically and through a PA and they sound damn
    good in both cases. I am almost sold on Takamine, but I want to
    exhaust all alternatives before I buy. I plan to keep whatever I
    buy for years to come and want to make sure I make the right choice.
    
    I have also looked at Guild, Sigma, Washburn, Yamaha, and several
    other brands. I haven't looked at Martin because quite frankly they
    are out of my price range. All of these manufacturers boast that
    they have great acoustic/electrics but the fact is that they all
    use the Fishman tape transducer system which is also sold under
    the Martin thinline 332 name. This system has fairly good sound,
    but cannot compete with an Ovations OP24 style system. They do not
    have the range of sound, and feedback rejection characteristics
    of the OP24 system. Even Martin with it's reputation for being the
    best in the business does not offer a pickup system that can hold
    a candle to the OP24. Two more top of the line manufacturers that
    are relatively new are Santa Cruz and Taylor, both of which are
    priced comparable to Martins. I have no info on what they offer
    for pickups.
    
    The only alternative that I know of that I haven't auditioned yet
    is the newest offerings from Alvarez-Yairi which feature their
    Bi-Phonic pickup system. This system has an individual piezo crystal
    under each string (I thought Ovations held the patent on this design
    but somehow they are getting away with using it). The idea of the
    Bi-phonic pickup is that is a stereo configuration with the
    treble strings and bass strings being wired out separately, although
    you can use them in either mono or stereo mode. All of the controls
    are passive (ie. no preamp, or active gain or tone controls at all).
    The true test is in the sound and in the bang-for-your-buck. I am
    looking for a local AY dealer that has a Biphonic model in stock.
    I am leary about the price of these instruments. From what I gather
    the models with this pickup are in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
    I am willing to spend around $800 to $900, but can't afford to go
    much higher.
    
    Unless I learn otherwise, it appears that Takamine offers that best
    overall sound both acoustically and electrically (for the money)
    You can buy a new Takamine acoustic/electric for around $500 to
    $600, and there are many dealers that carry them, so it is easy
    to shop around and find the models you desire. 
    
    If I have missed anything in my investigation, please fill me in.
    I am not in a great big hurry to buy, even if I have to go without
    an acoustic for a while. I recently recieved a catalogue from
    Mandolin Bros. located in Staten Island, New York. They have several
    franchises of acoustics, and their catalogue contains a wealth of
    knowledge which supports what I have just written. I am tempted
    to drive to Staten Island, but I probably won't be able to get around
    to it. I have reservations about buying something like this so far
    from home.                                           
    
    Good luck,
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    

    Ovations don't even sound like acoustic guitars to my ears.  They are
    very bright and tinny.  They remind me more of slap bass.  Plug 'em
    in and they sound even worse.
    
    But that's just my opinion.
    
    The best acoustic live sounds I've heard have always been fine
    guitars (Martin, Guild, etc) that were mic'ed.
    
    	db

>    The best acoustic live sounds I've heard have always been fine
>    guitars (Martin, Guild, etc) that were mic'ed.
    
Just to mention quickly - the best live sound I ever heard was on
the last Pink Floyd tour - both Gilmour and Tim Renwick played 
Takamine acoustics, and they sounded fantastic!

Alan S.

    Ovations are strange instruments (I have a 12 string). They don't sound
    right when you play them (Tend to sound tinny & weak), but to the
    person standing in front and listening, they sound as they should. A
    lot has to do with how a regular wood guitar transmits sounds from it's
    back and sides. The Ovations don't do this very much. This
    significantly effects how the guitar sounds to the player of the
    instrument. One other thing, the piezo transducers in the bridge are
    very sensitive to string tension, and this relates to the guage strings
    that are required. In general, if you don't have fairly heavy strings,
    all of bass end dissapears from the amplified signal. I personally
    don't like heavy strings, and usually don't play my Ovation that much
    because it rips the sh*t out of my fingers if I try to do a whole set
    with it. It does, however, sound very good thru my Twin Reverb when
    set up properly. I think that an Ovation can sound as good as any other
    guitar in either amplified of acoustic modes, but, like any other
    acoustic guitar, you have to find one that suits your sound & set it up
    right.

		Jens_who_prefers_008's_on_his_guitars_when_possible

    re: .5
    
    Yeah, actually I think Takamine is one of the most underrated
    instrument makers around.   I once went over to a friends and
    saw a guitar case there.  I knew he was sorta an "occasional" guitar
    player, and he described it as an "inexpensive japanese" guitar.
    Cost him like a little over $200 or something.
    
    I picked it up not expecting much, and was extremely impressed.
    Comparable to the best.
    
    	db

    Re: Ovations
        The first "real" guitar I ever had was an Ovation, bought in '75.
    I loved it.  I heard a lot of other Ovations, same model, and hated
    most of them.  I could never figure that one out; one would think
    that the lyrachord bowl would lend more tonal consistency from guitar
    to guitar, not less...
    
    Re: Takamines
        An ex-girlfriend of mine had a Takamine - very nice guitar.  I've never
    heard one that sounded bad, I think they're very good for the money.
    I'm sort of in the market for an acoustic-electric, and I definitely
    plan to check them out.

    Rodney M.

    I have a tak....great guitar and it gets better every year (7 years
    old now). The electronics are superb, but caution is advised, they
    are very hot, you can get distortion if the tone or volume is pushed
    too high. Personally I think they soudn great either way, acoustic
    or electric.
    
    Taks are built to be martin clones, and they have the sound down
    to a science. AS I understood it, the folks at Tak took several
    martins apart to see how they were built and then designed their
    own guitars to be as exact a copy as possible (this was in the early
    years).
    
    dbii