Conference napalm::guitar

    yes..but you'll learn faster from an instructor....
    
    dave

    	It is not only possible, many people have done it. Myself included.
    I never had any formal training. One of the things I never liked
    about most people who were taught by instructors is that they generally
    end up very regimented according to the instructors methods. They
    never seem to be able to really cut loose. There are exceptions,
    of course, but most of my friends who were taught by instructors
    never really got very good and it took a long time to not get there.
    remember thta instructors want you showing up every week with your
    10 bucks so they teach you slllooooowwwwwwwwww.
    I think the best way is to keep jamming with lots of people and
    learn from them. thye'll show you all kinds of tricks. for nothing!
    practice makes better. picking apart tunes from the radio or
    your stereo is good therapy.
    
    and practice practice practice.
    
    

	
	RE:.2

	Please, let's don't get into the stereotypical argument about trained 
musicians not having any soul!

	As in anything else, though, the key to making progress is putting in
the time and work.  Practice as much as possible.  Jamming with other people is
very good.  It's never too early to join a band.  Play with the radio, records,
play things you like.

	A *good* teacher, who understands what you want to accomplish, can help
tremendously.  A good teacher will help you to focus your energies on the
specific things you need to practice to get better.  One helpful hint from a
teacher can make something instantly clear that would take months to figure out
for yourself. 

	Unfortunately, maybe only 10% of the people who teach are good teachers.
If you have the time, set up trial lessons with three or four different teachers
and see what they have to offer.  A good teacher will make an immediate impact
on your playing...provided you put in the practice on your own time.  If after a
few lessons you don't feel any better about your playing, you have the wrong
teacher.  Learning to be a good musician is a long-term commitment.  Things
take time and learning the 'slllooowww' way isn't necessarily bad if you learn
it correctly.

	About being able to read music.  I've never found reading music to
hinder my ability to 'cut loose'.  Music is a language.  The ability to speak
a language (i.e. play) is one thing.   The ability to write/read a language
is another.  If you've ever had to learn a foreign language, learning to
read music is of about the same complexity.  Some teachers don't require that
you learn to read, but the ability to read greatly increases your ability
to 'converse' and trade specific ideas.

	Most of all, enjoy yourself.

    basically, no, you don't need to be able to read music to be able
    to play well and to play with a band.
    
    you don't need to take lessons. if you have teh determination and
    use all the advantages available (friends, clinics, read articles,
    watch other musicians) you can get very good.....good enough to
    play with a band and make people happy, yourself included
                                    
    at one time I had a friend (i know you don't believe i had a
    friend, steve, but it's true) and this friend and I were about
    on the same level, nusically. We both decided we wanted to be better,
    good enough to play in bands and make money, at least. I went home
    and practiced. I brought my guitar to work and practiced for an
    hour at lunch. I went to clubs with friends and, every once in awhile
    i would go out to th eparking lot and practice. I would decline
    invitations to clubs and such in order to go home and practice.
    I offered and accepted invitations tp/with people to jam. My friend,
    meanwhile, was busy partying. He only had time to practice 1 or
    2 times a week. after 6 months, the difference was noticable. after
    a year, playing with him was not much fun. after 2 years, we were
    on different planets. 
    
    i still can't read and i've never had any formal lessons (both of
    which would help anybody) but I'm happy with where i've gotten.
    
    want to hear a tape of my untrained abilities?
    i'll send you one...if you want....
    
    rik
    

    
    
    	As is with a lot of things, what you learn and know is directly
    proportional to how badly you want to do it. If you feel this searing
    torment in your soul to wail and "cut loose", if you really want
    to convey how you feel through "sonic articulation" - chances are
    you'll "just do it". The level of "proficiency" is a personal thing
    - dependant on what you want to get out of it, or shall I say, on
    the air. If you need the other modal scales and progressions to
    say what you feel more accurately, you'll learn 'em. 
    
    	As far as sight reading goes, its an asset to have under your
    belt. Gee, the guitatist for the *Cars* cant read and I imagine
    he's doing_just_fine -
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    I've helped aspiring musicians before, but I don't have alot
    of time to spare. So, what I've done is this......The person
    shows up for one 2 hour session at my place. I get a good idea
    of where she/he is at and sho wthem a bunch of stuff including....
    
    a. how to read music....which, though I can't sight read, I am 
    	aware of teh basics and fundamentals.
    	actually I can show you how to teach your self how to read.
    	something i never bothered with.
    
    b. the fundamentals of guitar, which you may already have, but i
    can help fill in any gaps.
    
    c. some tricks and styles to practice at home on your own.
    
    after the session is over, i asked that the person not come
    back until a certain level of proficiency has been achieved.
    when this occurs, the person comes back, after a month or so,
    and we proceed from there. anotehr 2 hour session, after which
    they go away for anotehr month or so.
    
    finally, as long as they progress, they can keep coming back
    every month or so for 4-6 months. this way, they get a bunch
    of data to work with at their own pace. 
    
    i've dealt with 5 people this way. none of them ever learned
    to play the guitar. the only time they really practiced was 
    when they saw me. needless to say, after the 2'nd or 3'rd
    session i didn't bother with them anymore.
    
    i don't know where you're node is, or where you are, but, if
    i can help you and you don't mind my terms, maybe we can work
    something out. I can't spare a lot of time cuz i do a lot of
    recording and practicing and writing on my own plus I have  
    kids and a relationship that take up a lot of my time. But,
    if you're really interested, I'd be willing to help you out.
    I work in salem n.h. and I live in marlboro mass.
    
    
    let me know.
    
    rik
    

    I learned how to play (rhythm) on my sister's accoustic guitar with a
    book she had.  It didn't teach you how to read music, just taught a few
    basic chords at first and went on from there.  Learning from a book
    allows you to go at your own pace (as was stated earlier, a teacher
    might tend to drag it on for the $$'s).  After following the book for a
    while, I went out and bought some music books for some albums I liked
    (the book did teach how to read chord charts) and started learning some
    songs from there. 
    
    After a while I was able to learn songs by ear off the radio or an
    album.  I also taught myself to pick from listening to songs and
    following the progression.  I had lessons for about 4 weeks once and
    really didn't learn much. 
    
    I started playing around with bass runs on an old six string.  This
    'playing around' came in handy once.  A freind of mine was in a band
    and their bass player called in sick once.  Since I often went to the
    practices and played along with my accoustic, I knew most of the
    material.  Someone went and picked up his equipment and I filled in at
    bass that night.  I later became a permanent member of the band and
    bought my own bass.  Never had a lesson on bass in my life.  It was
    *real* fun trying to pick the bass and sing at the same time (it took
    me three days of constant playing at lunch time and after work at night
    to get 'Sunshine of Your Love' down)! 
    
    Also, the lead guitarist in that band was self-taught and he was one of
    the best lead guitarists I've ever heard play.
    
    As was stated in previous replies, the main thing is practice. Make
    sure you take the time every day to sit down with your guitar for a few
    hours.  You might want to keep a tape recorder running so you can
    listen to it later (you'll hear it better if the guitar isn't right
    under your nose).  I've been able to correct a few problems by
    listening to myself play off a tape. 
    
    tom_p

    re: .4 .6
    
    Rik,  I would like to hear some of your music on tape.  If it's
    no trouble, you could send me a tape thru DEC interoffice mail.
    I don't know my mailstop right offhand, but it is in ELF.  About
    the lessons, I would be interested in trying it once.  I have about
    four hours just about every day after work to devote to jamming...which
    I usually do.  Here's the scenario:
    
    	I play along with some slow blues or jazz songs to improvise
    and try my hand at lead.  As I am not well-versed in all the scales
    needed to this efficiently, I do have a lot of fun, but it does
    lack variety and the stuff I do starts sounding the same after a
    while.  I've tried to learn a few of my favorite songs, but get
    lost looking for the chorus chords or whatever.   For reasons known
    only to me, I refuse to learn any top 40 stuff.  Will this hamper
    me?  So far, I've officially learned one whole song, but could rip
    off a bunch of little riffs from popular songs of now and then.
    I do have the desire to learn lead, but I do like to play rhythm.
    I basically get caught up in trying to (and I know this is probably
    the cardinal no-no for guitarists) create my own melodies.  Here
    again, I get lost when trying to create a chorus.  I think I just
    need some tips, more scales (jazz, rok), and then I could sit back
    and practice for a while...see where it goes from there.
    
    Someone said in this conference that it's never too early to play
    in a band...I have a question for that.  How can a person just walk
    into a band (members willing) and try to play if he/she doesn't
    know what's he's doing?  I mean, it's been my impression that these
    members know chords by name, and they will ask you to start in the
    key of something...and you don't know where to begin.  Maybe I'm
    just paranoid or something.
    
    						Phil
    

    I'll send you a tape in the next 48 hours.
    
    about joining a band.....look for people just about on your level
    and they will appreciate you and be happy with you. you can all
    help each other grow.
    
    if you feel that I can help you (after listening to my tape) let
    me know and we can work something out.
    
    
    now, GO HOME AND PRACTICE!
    
    :-)
    rik

    Thanks Rik...I'm on my way to the practice room!
    
    			Phil
    

I used a quote from Mark Twain as my high-school motto:

"Never let your schooling interfere with your education."

The important thing is to learn it. It doesn't matter whether you get it
from a teacher, or a book, or figure it out yourself from the radio.

Don.

    
    		Thanks Don, I needed that!
    
    				OO
    				\/
    
                                 
    			        <{}>-----+
                                
    					(TWANG)
    
                      
                

Yes, you can learn the basics of guitar by ear. You can play in a band
without knowing how to read music. You can rely on the basics with a bit of
creativity to spice things up.

Just what are the basics? Here's my opinion. I'd say you basically have to
know both the major and minor first-position chords: E, A, D, C, G, G, and
also a few movable chord forms, and what chord they are at what fret e.g.
the E form in 5th position is an A. Probably you also need some seventh
chords as well. You also need to know how to count, so that when somebody
tells you to play a certain chord for n bars you know when to change. If you
want to play lead at all you'll need to know some scales. Blues scale is the
minimum. It's handy but not strictly necessary to know some harmonic theory
in case you ever have to transpose something you already know to a different
key.

Once you know all that, or slightly before you feel totally comfortable with
all of it, try to find some people who are roughly at the same stage as you
are and get together and play. 

Have fun.
Don.

	Rik's a wicked player.  We jammed a few weeks ago and I think he's
great.  So, whatever he does works.  Everybody has their own system.  I'm
essentially self taught on guitar and bass.  I'd been playing bass regularly for
eight years before I ever took a lesson.  I learned so much in my first lesson
that I was amazed how little I *really* knew. 

	In most bands you don't have to read.  Especially rock, where you
predominantly cop licks off records.  

	Think of lessons as regularly scheduled one hour jam sessions where
somebody is giving you pointers and showing you stuff.

	Regardless, whether you jam or study, playing and listening to
guitarists who are more advanced than you is a great way to make progress
quickly.  Don't just sit in your room at home.  Pay attention to what the other
players are doing ask them to show you how to do some of the neat stuff.

    I've always wondered if there was something available for beginners
    or intermediate players on video tape. It would seem like a great
    way for someone to learn the basics and be able to move along at
    thier own pace.
    
    I really don't know where you would look, I've been trying to find
    a video tape on banjo playing but haven't come across anything yet.
    
    The only lessons I've ever had was 1 1/2 years of classical lessons
    when I was 9. 21 years later and still learning.
    
    Nick

    I just found this note file and think this is greate.
    
    I just started playing about a year and a half ago and seem to be
    in the same kind of boat.  I just have a guild and learned how to
    play by just playing around.  I try and practice every day but I
    just don't seem to get anywhere fast.  I can't read music except
    for script cords.  In this amount of time I have been able to learn
    songs like Stairway to Heaven, Dust in the Wind, some Beetles tunes
    and some other stuff.  I haven't really been able to take leasons
    because of scheduling problems but I do believe that leasons and
    learning some basics would reduce the time it takes to advance by
    yourself.
    
    So I do think it is possible to play in a band without knowing how
    to read music.  Some people are more gifted that others as is proven
    by the greate guitarists.
    
    
    :-) Sean

	Last night our lead guitarist brought in a new song.  He'd written a
four-bar double lead guitar riff for the intro and another double lead section
for the bridge.  He'd charted the lead lines out.  Since our other guitarist (an
excellent player) doesn't read we spent about 30 minutes teaching him, by rote,
the part he was supposed to play.  He still didn't have it down so we taped it
and he'll learn it off the tape for tonite.  During this, the drummer and I were
getting bored so, for fun, I picked up the chart and started stepping myself
through the line (haven't had to read for quite a long time).  In 5 minutes I
had the line down. 

	It was clear to us that being able to read made a difference. In most
rock bands, someone's not going to walk in with charts.  I think that's due to
most rock bands not being able to read charts rather than reading not being a
useful tool. 

   Another dead conference....  But I've got a reply
    
    
    	Trust your ear.  Work it to death.  If you go blind (god for
    bid) you won't be reading music by brail and playing guitar.
    
    	It's the ear for me.  Reading music, like any reading, puts
    me to sleep !

    RE: -1
    
        Thanks Ray...so far, things are coming along well.  Rik showed
    me what the basic chords are to play just about any rock toon, and
    I think it's a pretty good start.  Now, all I need is to listen
    to a few toons and get started.  Looking forward to attending the
    GonzoJamm!
    
    					Phil
    

    I read your note and a couple of things come to mind:
    
    You said it was a no-no to create your own melodies.  I think it
    is wrong NOT to create them.  After all, one of the three main
    components of Western music is melody (the other two being harmony
    and rhythm).
    
    It's been my experience (25 years or so) that most guitar oriented
    music being played in clubs is at least loosely rooted in the blues.
    Aside from being being a worthwhile study of a complex and significant
    musical form, learning the blues provides, I feel, a good basis
    from which other music can be learned.  On the surface, the blues
    is deceptively simple.  Soon after learning the basics of the blues,
    you will know what the other guy means when he says, "12 bar blues
    in E flat, starting with a turnaround."
    
    If you would like, contact me offline (E-mail: PISCES::KELLYJ) and
    I will send you my thoughts on the basics of the blues.
    
    Until then, keep playing those melodies!
    
    Regards,
    Johnny Jupiter
    

Although this is a bit belated, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

When I first picked up a bass (I never learned guitar) it was with the 
single purpose of playing in a band. The leader of the band was a so-so
guitarist who was a pretty good trumpet player, and played trumpet well
and a little bit of piano. The drummer was quite proficient and the keyboard
player knew nothing. 

Vin the keyboard player, has done well dispite the lak of any formal keboard
training and has only recently taken some theory in college. I started out
taking lessons in parallel with playing in the band. I felt that this was
the best of both worlds.  It was also helpful to be taught the right things.
What is right for one person is certainly not right for the next, but the
thing which I benefitted from the must was the theory of writing rock/jazz
bass lines. Rather than give me the music for a tune and have me learn to
read and play it my teacher would give me the chords for, say, a beatle
tune and say "write your own bass line". I never did become a proficient
enough reader to sight read, but I think you should know the basics
because it provides a context in which to learn some theory. 

Hidden in that mess is my personal bias that I prefer to play my own music.
However, my philosophy on music education is that it is best to get all
the types of education that you can get: e.g. jamming, lessons, playing
in a band, etc. I found that I was able to directly apply my formal education
in the (band) practice room, and the regular band practices kept up my chops
which helped out my lessons. 

As for reading and a r&r band, It can help, but It certainly is not necessary.
            
One more point: When choosing a band to play with, there may be a conflict
if the rest of the people are very sight reading oriented; that is the band
has to be able to communicate musical ideas easily.

Food for thought,

Steve

    
    (( yet another belated reply )) :-)
    
    In all the bands I have played in,or have had experience with,the
    accepted method of exchanging ideas was through 'show n' tell'.
    
    I wonder how many (rock) musicians can REALLY read.Not just read
    a little (like me).
    
    I also wonder how many rock musicians REALLY know what their playing.
    That is,keys,scales ETC (like me also.).
    
    I think that most people learn what FITS rather than what is 
    musically correct.
    
    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can do just fine
    by not getting formal instruction,but I think that you don't develop
    as well.
    
    Check out the following:
    
    I learned to play the Bass (guitar) at around age 13.Now all teenagers
    want to play in bands right away,so I learned a few licks and off
    I went.I never bothered to get any formal training.
    
    Now, 13 years later,I am married with two children with professional
    and personal obligations. (read: no time for lessons).
    
    I'm now kicking myself in the rear for not learning to read and
    get formal instructions on my instrument when I had nothing but
    free time in my teens.
    
    Maybe it's just me,but I could have been a much better player and
    a much better overall musician.
    
    
    			Dadman! 

    This is sorta a classic question.
    
    I think the answer is simple:  You don't "need" formal training,
    but it is simply the most efficient way to learn.  You learn more
    spending an hour of formal training (technique, theory, reading,
    etc.) than you could possibly learn in an hour of "noodling".
    
    It's sorta like saying why use a splitter when I can do it with
    an axe?  If you are going to split a lot of wood, you are better
    off getting the splitter as early as possible.
    
    I wish I could remember how Steve Morse put it in some column
    somewhere.  He was asked about the value of formal training.
    His answer was something to the effect that "if you really love
    music, you want to learn as much as you can about it."
    
    	db

    There's 2 sides to this issue, though. You can learn all the theory
    and scales you want as a music major (as my wife was) and never
    be able to play anything other than what's written down in front
    of you. I think the absolute best way to go is to learn theory AND
    be involved with a band where you can learn other facets of music
    (specifically, improvisation).
    
    I have come to the conclusion that theory is very useful in that
    it is a concise and universally understood way of describing musical
    concepts. For example, play E and F major chords (like in the beginning
    of 'White Rabbit'). Sounds good. It's not good because it makes
    sense according to some theory. However, those 2 chords are made
    up of notes from the A harmonic minor scale. The lead that's played
    over those 2 chords is in A harmonic minor. That ominous psychedelic
    feel which is created is characteristic of the harmonic minor scale.
    If you know your theory, you will hear those notes and say 'oh,
    A harmonic minor .. okay, I see what concept they're using'. Becoming
    an accomplished improviser means becoming familiar with all the
    different concepts, to the point of using them subconciously.
    
    I get really aggravated when I play with somebody and they try to
    show me a lick by telling me the notes, rather than thinking about
    the key and the harmony and all that. It's a case of not seeing
    the forest for the trees.
    
    -Dave
    

    Yeah...White Rabbit.
    
    Good example of the 5 maj, flat 6 maj chords that come from the
    Harmonic minor chord scale. You can use the harmonic minor a P4
    interval above the root of the first (of the two) major chord
    for soloing. Just like in that Social Animals tune that has the
    solo section with C# and D as the chords....its just *screaming*
    for someone to play F# Harmonic monir over it!!! ;^> (hi stevie
    k)
    
    FYI, the Harm. min. chord scale is:
    
    1-  2dim  b3aug  4min  5maj  b6maj  7dim
    
    whenever you see these chords boys and girls, quickly steal every
    Al Dimealo lick!
    
    wjb

    Ref .23
    
    It is not to late to take lessons.   Had I started taking lessons
    at 26? it would of been 8 flipping years earlier!
    
    

    re: .-1
    	
    	I agree that it's really never too late due my 'only' being
    	26.
    
    	The point is is that I no longer really have the time due to
    	personal/professional obligations.
    
    	I think that if I had taken formal lessons when I was first
    	learning the bass (eary teens age 13). I would be better off
    	for it now.
    
    
    				Tom G.

    
    I, too, have little time to practice because of personal/
    professional obligations, but I am taking lessons anyway.
    There are times that I don't even get a chance to pick up 
    my guitar between lessons which is very frustrating.
    
    But I don't feel that I am wasting my money or my teachers 
    time.  I learn alot every time I go and what I have learned 
    so far has opened up whole new worlds of playing that I never
    even knew existed.
      
    Of course I am not progressing nearly as fast as someone that
    can dedicate alot of hours to practicing, but I know that I am
    improving and that makes it worthwhile for me.
    
    frank 
    

    Yet another comment......
    
    I look at it like this:  Music was here before formal Musical
    instruction, so obviously you don't need formal training to make
    "good" music. "Good is in the eye or ear of the beholder". However,
    for me, it was much faster taking formal instruction. It helped
    me build my vocabulary, and it answers questions about WHY, that
    I have always had regarding music. I feel that it's at least worth
    taking a look at and can be very productive. To me formal instruction
    is years worth of musical ideas documented, and a common language
    in which to express those ideas. Guitar TAB is a supplement in itself
    to this language, "A way to express ideas".
    
    Tony

{                           this reminds me of those questions ive asked
    11 years ago .everybody as there own little methods and secrets
    this notes file for me is a great tool for learning .something you
    might try is if you have a cassette deck record a chord progression
    example A,D,E 145 and solo to that or pick any progression and
    experament! before i came to digital i did some part time studio
    work and if you want survive you have to be able to know abit of
    theory unless your just in for fills then its what key are we in
    .but play with people and get right after it we all started somewhere
    and we all have some scars most mature musicians will be happy to
    help. go getem!!