Conference napalm::guitar

    I have been looking into this question for about a year now. A guitar
    does not have to be over 25 years old to be vintage. I know of a
    store that has for sale a 68 *vintage* Gibson. I would say you have
    a 50s vintage Gibson. May be there is 60 vintage, 50 vintage and so on.
    
    I am not even close to be an expert in this subject. I do not know
    about Gibson since my interest are with Fender and Vox.
    
    With Fender it seems that everything that is about 10 years old,
    it is vintage. Some one else may say that pre-cbs is vintage for
    the Fenders. I like 60's Fender vintage.
    
    I like guitar that are not made any longer, and  were not made by
    millions. This way I spend time looking and saving the *money*.
    
    I would like to see more opinions about what makes a guitar vintage.
    
    

    I would think that it would have a lot to do with who was in control
    of the company at the time the guitar was made.  Fenders got pretty
    shabby in the craftsmenship after CBS bought them out in '63 ('64?).
    Maybe the old guard all retired and the new people didn't care as
    much.  
    
    

    I have a fender strat '73 that I've been offered $600 for by a music
    store owner (Music Warehouse in Portsmouth NH), one of my good friends
    has offered to buy it if I ever part with it, I also have a '73
    tele custom thinline also a very nice guitar.....I've played some
    older pre-cbs fenders and some were very good,some were excellant
    and some were junk, for reasons of original build, or mistreatment.
    The one great advantage to a vintage guitar is if it is a good one
    it will sound better than a good new guitar. Fender still makes
    godd guitars......you have to pick and choose guitars from any
    manufacturer to get a good one, I've seen les pauls that were total
    junk on the shelf right next to real good ones. I have a fender
    lead one that's maybe three years old that I like it's a good but
    not great guitar, well worth the $200 it cost me.....
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that a great guitar is a great
    guitar reguardless of age...and on old guitar is not necessarily
    a great one.
    
    dave

    I asked a Boston Musician about what is a vintage guitar? He said
    what ever you think is vintage.
    

    Vintage may sometimes be used to mean "desireable" though I personally
    feel that age dictates whether an instrument is "vintage".  Pre-CBS Fenders
    are desireable because they demand a price ... its like anything
    else that is a collectible - its an investment.  Some Post-CBS Fenders
    are also desirealbe because they are just good instruments.  If
    you put an early CBS start (say 1966) against a pre-CBS strat I
    really believe you will prefer the CBS one.  The pre-CBS strats
    have a very thin sound (i.e. Rory Gallagher) where as the early CBS
    strats have that destinctive strat sound but a little more balls.
    Both have identical quality - don't be fooled on this.  The quality
    of strats didn't start to noticeably degrade until the 70's.  As
    for tele's - the Pre-CBS ones have that piercing sound that makes
    them a "tele".  Post CBS teles are missing that and hence I think
    you'll find the reflection in the lower price.
    
    It use to be that models such as the Jazzmaster and Jaguars were
    ignored.  Up until the last few years you could still find an early
    60's Jazzmaster for under $300.  Not so anymore ... you knew it
    was just a matter of time.  The only reason a 60's strat was labelled
    "vintage" as apposed to a 60's Jazzmaster was because the pro's
    back then were using strats but nobody was touching Jazzmasters.
    Now, some prominent blues masters are using Jazzmasters and the guitar's
    popularity has steadily been increasing w/ the increase in exposure.
    
    Gibson's are a different story.  It use to be that Gibson's #1 and
    #2 solid body guitars were the Les Paul and the SG.  You'll probably
    find Les Pauls before '65 to be desireable.  After that there popularity
    drops.  Just recently I saw here in Atlanta
    a '68 Les Paul, all original going for $300.  As for the SG, there
    popularity dropped quickly as fewer pros were seen using them. 
    Nonetheless, I think you'll find the SG-LesPauls and early SG customs
    to bring a decent buck.  And then there are those few collectibles
    such as old Firebirds, Flying V's, etc.  They look "cool" beyond
    anything else.
    
    I could not use the term "vintage" to describe a 70's or 80's instrument
    no matter what kind of buck it brings.  They are not old enough
    to be labelled that.
    
    Joel

    Gee, my amp might be vintage??!!
    
    Its a Fender Bassman that I picked up used back in '69.  It still
    plays great and rattles the windows at #3.  My biggest concern for
    it is, if it blows a tube, where am I going to get another one?
    How many of you have an amp that runs on tubes?  Even if its worth
    a lot of $$$, it has so much nostalgia oozing out the seams, I couldn't
    bear to part with it.
    
    Can anyone tell me how to find out how old it is?
    
    Spence

    Why don't you go home tonite and get the tube numbers and post them
    here tommorrow.   Chances are those tubes are available.
    
    I have had no problems getting tubes for my Mesa Boogie.  But they're
    still making Boogies that use the same tubes.  Those tubes have
    been around for awhile (Boogie didn't invent them) although Boogie
    claims that the one's that they supply are made to their own
    specifications and come in matched pairs.  Supposedly I could use
    non-Boogie tubes, but I'm so happy with the way it sounds (when
    the tubes aren't shot) that I don't want to mess with it.
    
    	db

	Tubes do need replacing now and then and can be had at an electronics
shop or supply. You can mail order them too. In the six years that I had a
Fender Bassman or Bandmaster which I ran the volume at 10(with 8 12" speakers)
I never burned up the amp or burned out tubes. 
	But I did replace the tubes when I felt it was neccessary. The only 
expensive part in the amplifier was a transformer which I also never replaced.
	To find out the age of a Fender amp you need to list type and color of 
your knobs,the label plate color,and the model label font.
	For example:I had a 1962 Fender Bandmaster with cream colored knob's,
a brown faceplate and model name on the face plate was a simple script. Also is
it a piggyback amplifier and what color is(or was)the "tolex" vinal covering?
	Common tubes are 6l6's,12ax7's,6v6's,to name a few,but maybe someone
else can recommend a good place to buy tubes cheap in Mass. How about it?

						Hope this helps!

							Rick

>	Common tubes are 6l6's,12ax7's,6v6's,to name a few,but maybe someone
>else can recommend a good place to buy tubes cheap in Mass. How about it?

    	Here Here !!! Please. I had one hell of a time trying to find the
    	power tubes for my Ampeg VT40. Took 2-3 weeks and each one costs $38.

    	There's got to be a someplace in this area where we can get tubes
    	at wholesale !


    	- mike g.

    Recommendation for replacing tubes: try Sager's Electronic Supply
    (South Shore area), or another one of the industrial electronic
    suppply houses in the Boston area.  I think Alden Electronics might
    carry tubes.  You might also try 'You-Do-It' (You Blew It!) Electronics
    in Needham (Highland Ave exit)...you can see it from 128.
    
    I bought tubes from Mesa for my little Fenders.  They cull out the
    highest quality tubes from a production run and stamp their name
    and number on them, but they're functionally the same as the old
    familiar 6L6GC's, 12AX7's, and 6V6's.  They did make my amps sound
    MUCH better, but maybe any new tubes would have and also maybe the
    placebo effect was in place.  They are outrageously expensive;
    something like $60 for my Deluxe Reverb.
                                                             
    Hope this helps.
    
    Johnny Jupiter
    

	Here's what Radio Shack will hit you up for some tubes 6l6's,$11.99
12ax7's,$6.89 plus tax!(in Mass). Most Amps will have at least 2 power tubes
(6l6 or 7027) so thats at least $24 plus at least 1 preamp tube (12ax7,12at7)
depending on the complexity of your amp which bring's the total up to $31. 
With tubes for an Ampeg you might try to find what is a comparable replacement
tube in a cross reference book as there tubes were not as widely used as with
Fender's,Mesa Boogies,etc.You might save yourself some money next time.
    $35 ouch!


						Rick 

Re. -1 Thanks Rick. I think the Ampeg's power tubes are 7035's - not
       a common number from what I'm being told. I did get a cross ref
       number but I'll have to dig a little deeper for a supplier
       next time. 

      - mike

    Re:.6 
    	Your amp could be considered vintage if it has a brown or 
    black faceplate with brown, black, or white tolex covering.
    If it has a silver face with blue lettering, it probably won't
    be considered vintage for another decade. As for tubes, you
    can find them at Radio Shack. They use no unusual tubes, even
    the older models. Fender has never changed their basic designs,
    and probably never will. They are not known for their R+D.
    
        
        
    
    

    Re:.13
    
    Not all Radio Shacks carry tubes.  The Radio Shacks in the 
    Nashua/Merrimack, NH area that I checked, just laughed.  I ended 
    up ordering tubes from Mesa/Boogie for my Fender amp.  It took a 
    while for them to arrive, but I've been very pleased.

    Me thinks this note should be called "Vintage Tubes":-)
    
    Some time ago, while in the Acton Music Center, I noticed an old,
    arch top with Fholes and ugly as sin hanging on the rack. The tag 
    said 100 bucks. I offered the guy 50. I thought it would be a nice
    guitar to experiment with acoustic pickups on. Just to mess around
    with. The guy said I was crazy. "That's a vintage arch top and I
    have got at least 50 bucks into it now."
    
    A hundred dollar *vintage* guitar. Amazing. I let him keep it.
    
    Dave. 

    Vintage, according to collectors, depends on the maker of the
    instrument and type.  The pre-CBS Fenders and pre-1968 Gibsons are
    good examples.  Pre WW II Martins fall into the category and have
    become very expensive.  I have a 1920 Martin 00-28, mint.  I paid
    $200 for it in 1973 and could get $1800-2200 for it today.  My 1942
    D-28 I paid $700 for in 1970.  Today it will fetch more than $6,000.
    Many vintage archtops from the 20-30's go for 2,000 and up.  There
    are a number of sources for this info if anyone cares.  
    
    Paul

    ___________________    VoX   ____________________
    --------------------------Guitars----------------
    I recently purchased a ? 1969 Vox Grand Prix which
    equipped with a number of electronic devices ( distortion
    wah-wah, repeater, & treble - bass boost ). I would like
    to know where to find information regarding the repair
    of the "guts", or who can do it. 
    
    Also , while we're on the subject, I've found a great
    little store on Sunset Blvd. Hollywood,Ca. called Waldo's
    Music.  They carry a large selection of vintage 50's-60's
    guitars and amps which includes rare Mosrites,Voxes,Silvertones
    ect. their prices are very reasonable.
    So if you're out that way pay Waldo a visit.
    
    steve B

    Yes, Vox. I have a 64 or Vox Mark XII tear drop. I do not know
    where you can take it for repairs up here in New England. Mr C
    in Marlboro seems to know Vox. They may be able to help.
    

                        <SORTA LIKE WINE>
    
    I MUST AGREE WITH THIS THINKING. I'VE OWNED AND PLAYED A VARIETY
    OF NEW AND 'VINTAGE' GUITARS, AND IT SEEMS TO BOIL DOWN TO THE
    INDIVIDUAL INSTRUMENT. LIKE WINES, SOME GUITARS START GREAT AND
    STAY GREAT, WHILE OTHERS TURN TO VINEGAR, AND STILL OTHERS START
    GREEN AND MELLOW WITH AGE. MY PRESENT GUITAR IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF
    THE LATER; A '72 GIBSON SG-300 (or 200 or 500 or 73, no one, even
    Gibson, is real sure), FOUND IN THE DITCH AT Heart O' Texas IN
    AUSTIN, WAS A LIMITED EDITION ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER POPULAR.
    THIS GUITAR WAS PLAYED WITHIN AN INCH OF IT'S LIFE, AND WAS IN
    REALLY TERRIBLE SHAPE; BUT THIS GUITAR SOUNDS AND FEELS LIKE NONE
    I HAVE EVER PLAYED! SINCE IT WILL NEVER BE TRULY A COLLECTORS'
    ITEM, I'VE FIXED IT UP A LITTLE. AND YES, I HEAR THE DIE-HARD
    COLLECTORS LAUGHING, BUT I CALL THIS AXE 'VINTAGE' !!

    re .19
    
     All it needed was a little tender loving care and now you have
    a friend for life!!!
    
    Mark

        Under the  heading  of  "Things  to  Like, today" - setting the
        intonation of my VOX Phantom XII 12 string in 15 minutes and it
        sounds right.
        
        Speaking of vintage VOX - I'm interested in buying a Phantom IV
        and a Phantom VI if anyone knows of any available...
        
        Leads gratefully received!
        
        Andy

   Just out of curiousity, what would be the value of an original Vox Beatle
   bass (year unknown, but assume late sixties), complete with original
   hardshell case, and in nearly perfect condition?  You can either mail to me
   or respond here.

   Thanks!

   -- Sam

    Sam,
    
    A VOX Beatle bass?  I thought Paul played a Hofner.

    Paul did play a Hofner, but Vox made one like it later on.
    
    gh

    Vox made a violin shape bass that looks like the Hofner. The Vox
    is larger than the Hofner. 
    

I wonder if there is a sort of common "standard" among musicians, dealers, 
collectors etc. about how to describe the condition of a (used) guitar? There 
are terms like

- "mint"
- "near mint"
- "excellent"
- "good"
- etc.

Is there a list of how these terms relate to things like amount of scratches, 
wear of finish/metal parts, (repaired) cracks etc. ?

I also wonder if terms are used differently in relation to the age of a 
guitar - like: is a "near mint" 1930ies instrument "allowed" more scratches 
than a 1970ies "near mint" instrument...?

FeliX. 

    Good question.  In my experiences with vintage dealers, these terms
    vary a lot; about the only thing to do is to learn how a particular
    dealer rates his instrument.
    
    Some general examples from my experience:
    
    "good" - usually means severe playing wear, heavy buckle wear or
    gouges, probably some non-original parts.  Many dealers won't
    even carry stuff in this range.
    
    "very good" - stills some nicks, gouges, buckle wear, but the instrument
    is basically intact.  May still have a few changed parts.
    
    "excellent" - usually just a cleaner version of "very good", but still
    not perfect.  I've often been underwhelmed by instruments described to me
    as "excellent".
    
    You'll also see in-between grades, like vg++, exc+.
    
    I do think that dealers pro-rate their ratings based on age, i.e. an
    "excellent" 1957 is going to have noticably more wear than a mid-70's.

    Stopped in George Gruhn's shop for the first time in two years. His new
    store, located a few doors down from the old one is much larger and has
    a corner location. Much of his stock is now on display: in the past,
    most was upstairs.  In the past, I 'd rarely see more than a few people
    come into the shop over the course of several hours, but when I walked
    in, it looked like Saturday at Filene's Basement. What a zoo! Most were
    tourists who must have seen the Visa commercials. There are eight
    salespeople, whose first task is to sort the serious customers from the
    browsers, then give the former good service while keeping the latter
    out of trouble. One guy was looking at a '63 Strat in Sea Foam Green
    for $8k and asked "is it new?"
    
    George wasn't there when I arrived, but after I introduced myself, I
    got excellent service. George was at a guitar show and had some of the
    guitars I wanted to try, but there was enough hanging on the walls for
    me to have fun for a few hours. I especially liked the mint  Gibson All
    American and Florentine banjos hanging side by side--almost made me
    want learn to play one. There were a number of archtops; some S400's,
    L-5's, Byrdlands, SV's, several nice JS's, two Gobels and a couple of
    Guild Artist Awards. The one I liked most was a florentine cutaway '62
    L-5 CES with a sunburst top and red sides, back and neck. Nice wood,
    lots of wear and checking, but it played well and sounded great. Too
    pricey for me at $10k, but they said "make an offer," which I'm
    thinking of doing. Several 355's that were not in nice enough condition
    for me --I thought one had a silver top, but it had just faded away.
    
    There's a small room with a Princeton amp for trying out the electrics.
    I understand why they don't want a big amp in there, but I would have
    liked something with a little more bottom. I got a complete tour of the
    upstairs, including the repair shop and the guitars that aren't on
    display, like the pair of prototype The Les Pauls, one in Cherry
    Sunburst, one In Antique Sunburst, that had stunning wood and
    incredible abalone inlay, but were not quite as ornate as the later
    models, which had all wood parts replacing the usual plastic ones, and
    multiple woods on the fretboard. I'd would have liked to buy one, but
    they're being sold only as a pair for $25k.
    
    There were a number of Fenders, which don't do much for me, and nothing
    extraordinary, anyway, and some Gretsches, the nicest of which was a
    Baldwin-era Country Gent. A 6120 at $7.5k made me wonder what people
    see in these things.
    
    They had a number of PRS's with 10 tops and bird inlay. These just
    don't excite me, for some reason. Lots of Gibson solids. One that
    really caught my eye was a near mint, Cherry Sunburst, three-pickup '85
    Custom with a highly figured "Plus" top and red body and neck, that was
    not yet on the stocklist. It was priced under market value, too, so I
    bought it. It should arrive later this week.  We left it sitting on a
    table while running the paperwork and I had to keep shooing other
    customers away from it, saying "too late, it's sold."
    
    George showed up just as I was leaving for the airport, so I only had a
    minute to chat with him. He said the current setup is temporary, and
    that he's planning to expand the showroom so that his complete
    inventory is on display. Although his new store is easier to get around
    and is a nicer place than the old one, I liked it more when it was just
    a haven for players and collectors and not a tour bus stop.
    
    Danny W.

    2 Gobels!!!  That's kinda obscene, no?
    
    See any Firebirds?

    re: -.1
    
    Not a Firebird in sight--George had taken a few to the show.
    
    There were also several Heritage Golden Eagles that appeared new. I
    still don't like these, although they sounded okay and seemed to play
    well. Just not to my taste, I guess.
    
    Danny W.

    Is Gruhn's the place in Nashville?  I was there in '87 and didn't even
    know where I was until long after I got home from the trip.  I just
    needed some strings for the travel guitar I had with me and was driving
    around looking for a music store and stumbled onto the place.  I went
    in, bought some strings, and left without ever realizing that I was
    anywhere notable...
    
    Greg

    Spent an afternoon in Gruhn's. A couple of outstanding D'Angelicos,
    Excel and New Yorker, were stunning, as were the $55k price tags.
    Cheaper was a $5.5k D'Angelico II, obviously by Heritage (it's signed
    by JP Moats), which was overpriced by 2x. A beautiful Benedetto
    Bird's-eye played great, sounded thin. A large selection of Super
    400's, none outstanding, although I would have bought a '35 refinished
    in '65 in a lovely cherry sb if the action wasn't so high (typical of
    the period, when big band rhythm players thrived).  A CES model with
    Bigsby was a nice player, but had more finish wear than I like.  A
    low-end Stromberg was surprisingly weak. A Lacy  Eclipse 18" prototype
    with really ornate inlay was fabulous, but was $12k. Two '60's 355's
    were okay and there a few average L-5 CES's.  A surprise was a Walker
    17" non-cut archtop, with excellent sound and a great neck. 
    
    I had really wanted to look at two blonde thinline Epi Emperors and was
    disappointed to find that they'd just been sold. One was in the repair
    shop getting a neck reset--the body had fabulous curly maple and was
    very resonant for such a thin guitar. It was in very nice shape (except
    for not having a neck :-)), so I'm sorry I didn't go after it. 
    
    There were some Burns reissues, just as ugly as the originals. A
    Firebird VII in average condition was fun to play ($6.5k). Two new
    Gibson RB-6 banjos were so pretty that I was tempted to buy one just to
    hang on the wall. I also got to plunk on George's own B&D Ne Plus Ultra
    9, which is completely over the top with rhinestones and engraved
    plastic (when it was built, plastic was more expensive than pearl)--a
    truly incredible instrument. I did *not* ask to play the $150k Flying V
    prototype (quoting Nigel Tufnel, "Don't even look at it"). 
    
    It's always fun to play a bunch o' instruments of this quality, and I
    got the red-carpet treatment (I've been a customer since '73, so I
    deserve it). Although I didn't snag a prize, it was a great way to kill
    an otherwise dead afternoon and a sure cure for the Business Traveler's
    Blues.
    
    Danny W.

    So ... from someone who's never been to Gruhn's ... are there like any
    "normal" priced guitars?  Or is Robin Leech their head salesman??

    re .-1
    
    it's easy if one is married :-)

    RE: D'Angelico II overpriced by 2x...
    
    Danny,
    
    Why do you feel the II is overpriced?
    
    	o Insufficient quality compared to other archtops in 
    	  the same price range?
    
        o Because you can buy an archtop made by the same people for
    	  under $3K?
    
        o Do other dealers sell the same instrument for less?
    
        o Some other reason(s)???
    
    Just curious,
    Jim

    Actually, they are reasonably competitve on new Gibsons and Martins,
    and most of their used, non-vintage stuff are "normal" priced. A
    business associate of mine picked up a nice D-35 for $1200 and he's
    happier than a pig in whatever. 
    
    Since I can see guitars like that anywhere, I limited myself to the
    more interesting pieces. 
    
    Danny W.

    Jim:
    
    The D'Angelico II is a Golden Eagle with extra inlay, so your first two
    bullets are right. Gruhn's price on this Excel is competitive and
    it's been hanging around the shop for quite awhile.
    
    Danny W.

    >How could one let mere $$$$ stand between them and the guitar of
    >their dreams?!?
    
    I donno, but $$$$ has found a way to stand in between my dream of
    an early 60s Les Paul and a 100wt plexi Marshall stack for quite 
    some time now...
    
    8^)
    
    Danny, thanks for the clarification...

    
    	re: $$$ in the way - it's funny how we guitar players look at
    	that problem.  Compared to keyboard players, we have it made.
    	We can pick up a decent guitar for less than a grand and have
    	a total package for less than $2k.  And most of us gig with a
    	setup of less than $1k!!
    
    	Compare that to a few synths, midi, sequencing stuff, the
    	latest patches, even a Mac for putting it all together!
    
    	Amazing how it has evolved from the free upright piano...
    
    	Tom
    

    Not to mention what a decent string instrument costs. A concert-quality
    violin bow can go for $25k or more. Don't even ask about the violin!
    
    Danny W.

    Re: Guitarist getting off cheap compared to keyboard players
    
    And a new guitar won't be obsolescent in 6 months.
    
    Jim

    I believe the regular Les Paul Standard was made in 1960 and into
    1961. These have slimmer necks than 1959 and older models, but 
    other than that they looks basically the same with flamed maple
    tops. I'm not sure if the pickups on these are considered PAF's ?
     
    The Les Paul Classic 60 and Classic 60+ are based on the 1960 
    model. Some people prefer the slim neck to the baseball bat
    necks found on other Les Pauls. 
    
    As far as classical instruments are concerned there is no comparison
    to vintage guitar prices. A student grade Rimarez classical guitar 
    will set you back $5k and a professional model is $10-50k. Try pricing
    a concert grade chello, viola, etc. They're out of site! I think the
    cheapest Stratavarios (sp?) violin is $1 million dollars. Many classical
    violinists borrow instruments from museums to use in concert. 
    
    Mark

    Actually, I believe student grade (the Estudio Series?) Ramirez 
    guitars currently go for between $1K and $2K.  These have solid
    tops, but laminated sides and backs.  A professional instument
    (The Ramirez 1A) in Brazilian rosewood lists for $16K.  I'm not
    sure what a typical discount is.  Older, exceptionally fine, 
    examples will probably fetch more than new ones.
    
    I think a Ramirez 1A with Indian rosewood sides/back lists for $8-9K.  
    
    Of course, there's a lot more work in a Ramirez 1a than there is in 
    a Les Paul.  Given a cloice between a Brazilian rosewood 1a
    and '59 LP, *I'd* take the 1a.
    
    I'm not sure what is meant by the "cheapest" Stradavarius violin,
    but recent Strads to hit the market *have* commanded prices 
    in excess of $1 Million.  It's not really fair to compare this
    to the vintage guitar market, though.  Antonio Stradavari has been
    dead for about two hundred years.  Just think what a D'Angelico 
    New Yorker will be worth in another 170 years.
    
    FWIW, Stradavari built guitars in addition to violins, violas, and
    'cellos.  At least one of his guitars still exists.
    
    Jim

    A jazz guitarist can buy a new L-5CES for $6k and spend another $1000 on
    an amp. A concert violinist has no equivalent "low cost" option--even
    non-collectible concert quality instruments require mortgages.
    
    Danny W.

    >>A concert violinist has no equivalent "low cost" option--even
    >>non-collectible concert quality instruments require mortgages.
      
    Very true.  
    
    Not all classical musicians face the same plight, however.
    I'm not sure what Thomas Humphrey gets for his guitars these days, 
    but I doubt it is much over $10K (if that).  His "Millenium" is
    one of the more popular choices among the top classical guitarist
    (Sharon Isben, Elliot Fisk, and others). Brass and woodwind players 
    also get off relatively cheaply.  
    
    
    Jim

    
    	$1M for a violin, and $25K for the bow?
    
    	What's so special about a violin that it would cost that much??
    

    >>        What's so special about a violin that it would cost that much??
    
    Supply and demand.  The million dollar instruments are 150-200
    years old.  If anyone could replicate what makes these
    instruments so great, things might be different.   Since no
    one has, and the demand exceeds the supply, the price continues
    to escalate.
    
    There was a "golden era" of violin making in (I think) the late
    1700s and early 1800s.  It was at this time that Stradivarius,
    Amati and others made what are generally considered the finest
    violins ever.  Why are they so great?  There are a lot of theories:
    
        o Special carving techniques that were never written
    	  down and were lost over the years.
    
    	o An unusually good wood supply create from optimal (from
    	  a musical instrument standpoint) growing conditions for
    	  the tonewoods used (spruce and maple).
    
        o Even special varnish.
    
    The real answer is probably a combination of all of the above.
    Added to that, is the resonance attributed to aged instruments
    (why does a pre-war Martin D28 fetch $15,000 when a new one can
    be had for 1/10 of that?).  It creates an instrument that just
    can't be duplicated today.  Even if we knew all the secrets,
    every nuance of construction, we couldn't replicate the instrument
    because we don't have the same wood supply (presuming that 
    a unique wood supply is part of the equation).  And even if
    we could, how to simulate 200 years of "breaking in."  All of this, 
    coupled with years of history and legend, and no small amount of 
    snob appeal (like any other collectable), has caused these 
    instruments to become prohibitively expensive. 
    
    There was a special on PBS a couple of years ago on the great 
    violins.  A physics professor at Northwestern University has 
    made a major research area on what makes these instruments special.  
    His most significant finding was a slight asymetric carving of the
    top (I believe the treble side was thinner) consistently
    was found in great violins, although most violin making texts
    say to make the top symetric.
    
    Part of the mystery, perhaps...
    
    Jim

    
    	OK, I read that to mean "they're making new violins today and
    	charging $1M for them".  But it sounds like these are collect-
    	ors' items, and very likely quite rare since they're 200 years	
    	old.  And I guess that's a little more understandable than it
    	was before [but $1M??].
    
    	What does an average new violin go for these days?
    

    
    I'm not sure what a top quality new violin will go for, I'd guess
    somewhere in the $15-$50K range (about double the price of
    a comparable quality archtop guitar, even though construction
    techniques and complexity are similiar).  The instrument's value
    will go up as it ages and matures-- a top quality used instrument
    will generally sell for more than a new instrument from the
    same maker.
    
    The trouble string players have is that to make it in to one
    of the top orchestras, a new instrument is not even an option.  You
    don't necessarily need a Strad, Amati, or Stainer, but you do
    need a top quality (very) mature instrument.  I know a bassist
    in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, and he says that a $60K
    instrument is about the cheapest you can have at that level.
    He has two basses-- one worth $250K that is his primary instrument,
    and a $60K instrument that he uses for outdoor concerts.
    
    The $1M instruments aren't just going to collectors.  YoYo Ma
    plays a Stradivarius 'cello, and I think Isaac Stern plays a
    Strad, too.
    
    Jim
    

>    
>    The $1M instruments aren't just going to collectors.  YoYo Ma
>    plays a Stradivarius 'cello, and I think Isaac Stern plays a
>    Strad, too.
    
    Wow. I didn't even know Tommy Smothers *played* the cello.